Luas questions

Maskhadov · 26-10-2005 10:34am

I think your right Metrobest. I think we got it all wrong with LUAS and we should have built a city wide METRO. They should have built the LUAS down in Cork and it would have saved the country embarassement.

dowlingm · 26-10-2005 3:27pm

(note - for DART read metro because I believe DART is a metro system)

Maskhadov

consider this. First of all, if you know anything about the topography of Cork (I lived there for seven years post college and grew up in north County Cork) you will realise running trams there is not easy, with narrow streets and on the northside very steep gradients. You also have to create a culture of reliable transit which is where QBCs come in, so that when LUAS comes the people who live along the route are used to Right of Way and won't fight (as hard) when it goes to ABP. The fact is that at the time LUAS was done in Dublin nobody could have foreseen the kind of money available and if there was 800m available it certainly wouldn't have been spent in Cork. The major problem in Cork is commuting from outside the city and this is why the Midleton line is much higher priority than Cork LUAS.

As I also pointed out, some areas of Dublin will never be intensified because there are no greenfield/brownfield sites of any significance and therefore it's better to use LUAS as intermediate rapid transit rather than underprovide with bus/QBC or overprovide with DART.

Building a citywide DART with the gross stupidity which has characterised the LUAS project would have cost 10 billion euro or more. Now that the LUAS experience has chastened the RPA and given impetus to watchdogs like P11 any future DART lines is likely to be built better and cheaper. Though the govt didn't plan it this way, things might actually work out quite well considering.

murphaph · 26-10-2005 5:17pm

dowlingm wrote:

As I also pointed out, some areas of Dublin will never be intensified because there are no greenfield/brownfield sites of any significance and therefore it's better to use LUAS as intermediate rapid transit rather than underprovide with bus/QBC or overprovide with DART.

Spot on. There are vast swathes of this city that are only densifiable through developers purchasing multiple existing low density houses and knocking them, replacing them with apartments. This is actually happening but on a very small scale in comparsion to the brownfield and infill apartment complexes ging up, nevermind the developments on the outskirts. Places like Rathfarnham and Knocklyon are snookered because no development will take place to their south sides due to the Dulin Mountains so no high density developments will provide the critical mass to run underground DARTs (DART==Metro) to. Tese areas may well never really densify enough, so Luas is the best they can hope for. A decent Luas network with proper priority given to it over the car, including closing junctions and streets to cars, has tremendous ability to move people. The nay-sayers who think it should be metro or bust are living in a dreamworld and Dublin can't afford to waste it's money on such things. The Swords-Airport route CAN support a metro (DART) . Not many other areas can (I'm not counting the likes of Adamstown, Docklands, Grange North and most of D15 because they lie on heavy rail lines). The Green Luas could have supported the southern half of the Shanganagh-Swords metro, but I doubt it'll ever happen now.

Maskhadov · 26-10-2005 7:50pm

I dont know the geography on the ground in Cork but I was just using it as an example of somewhere that is less populated and might benefit more from LUAS.

Metrobest · 26-10-2005 10:09pm

dowlingm wrote:

Now that the LUAS experience has chastened the RPA and given impetus to watchdogs like P11 any future DART lines is likely to be built better and cheaper. Though the govt didn't plan it this way, things might actually work out quite well considering.

Let's deal in facts. The RPA came into existence long after the Luas was planned and designed. If you want to blame anyone, blame the CIE Light Rail Project Office which conceived the Red Line.

Here's another fact. The LUAS carried more passengers last year than the DART. The represents a shocking indictment of Irish Rail's abillity to maximise its current capacity (A single DART has far more capacity than a single tram). How can you call DART a "metro" when it can't even beat the passenger numbers of a 40-metre tram?

DART is not metro, nor will it ever be. DART most resembles an electric commuter train, ferrying commuters to the outer suburbs. Try calling the RER "metro" to a Parisian and watch them laugh in your face. That's because anyone with experience of the two modes can confirm the difference, in terms of passenger comfort, frequency, reliability, destinations served and demand patterns are huge.

Yes there parts of the city that can't support a metro; but that's true in every city.

There are parts of Dublin that can support and deserve a metro: one is St Stephen's Green-Swords, another is the Canal ring.

Metro projects are visionary because they make such a huge difference to people's quality of life. In the long term the return on investment is positive as it discourages suburban sprawl in outlying provincial regions, concentrates development on urban corridors in an urban setting and makes the city smaller and connected.

dowlingm · 26-10-2005 11:39pm

metrobest

I really don't care what a Parisian would call it. The fact is that the definition of metro changes all over the world and we can call DART a metro if it fits the basic description - even wikipedia redirects metro to "rapid transit".

As for the RPA, wikipedia says much of their staff came from CIE LRPO:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Procurement_Agency

Do you have information which contradicts this which you can link?

Victor · 26-10-2005 11:48pm

How about we call it "a train to get me to work in the morning" (ATTGMTWITM).

Metrobest wrote:

Let's deal in facts. The RPA came into existence long after the Luas was planned and designed. If you want to blame anyone, blame the CIE Light Rail Project Office which conceived the Red Line.

But isn't it largely the same personalities?

Sarsfield · 27-10-2005 12:15am

The LRPO/RPA was one of the best things to happen to CIE. Got rid of quite a few that needed getting rid of

BrianD · 27-10-2005 11:48am

Metrobest wrote:

DART is not metro, nor will it ever be. DART most resembles an electric commuter train, ferrying commuters to the outer suburbs

Lets stick with facts. The DART is a metro line. Not a perfect one but neither are most metro lines in most cities (unless built in recent times). What is a metro other than an electric commuter train?!?!?!?!? Furthermore, I would not describe the majority of the route covered by the existing DART line as outer suburbs. What would you describe as the inner suburbs?

Metrobest wrote:

There are parts of Dublin that can support and deserve a metro: one is St Stephen's Green-Swords, another is the Canal ring.

Why do you have an obsession of terminating a train line at a duck pond? If we are building the white elephant would we not be better off going via connolly and/or Heuston and then onto a southside location. This is what they would so anywhere else.

As for the canal route. I am unconvinced about this route. The interconnector will deal with any demand there may be but the canal route will be too far outside the main CBD for most people. Having said that, once you build these things the development often follows.

D'Peoples Voice · 10-01-2008 2:25pm

why on the Green line, does the screen say "Alight for Dundrum... ....Enniskerry and Balinteer"
Everyone else i know spells it "Ballinteer"

John R · 10-01-2008 7:05pm

Why was it necessary to drag up a 3 year old thread to post that?

D'Peoples Voice · 11-01-2008 2:02pm

John R wrote: »

Why was it necessary to drag up a 3 year old thread to post that?

Well the thread title is "Luas Questions" and I had a question on the Luas.
I think that qualifies it as an appropriate thread to use:)

D'Peoples Voice · 12-04-2009 5:31pm

Does anyone else notice a greater amount of racism on the red line compared to the Green line?

for example, last week when I was last on the red line, I saw two young girls hurl abuse at a spanish student because he had curly hair - the language out of them was horrific - not to mention they were spilling their cans of Carling everywhere.
At the same time, two young lads were shouting "Get home you ******!" at the driver of the luas - and kept hitting the glass door - and this was only around 5pm of a day. All of them had got on at Jervis street and alighted the luas at a place called Goldenbridge.
Another example was today, some young lads were shouting revolting comments at a paraplegic old man, who had a Asian carer pushing him in a wheelchair. Some of the comments were along the lines of, he should be walking in order to get practice for the Special Olympics. Thankfully these people got off the luas at a place called Fatima.
I must admit, all on the years on the Green Line, I have yet to see the type of racism that I have seen on the Red Line. Thankfully I don't get the Red Line very often.
Why did they route the luas through these areas, surely they could have gone around them!

ukraine_orange · 12-04-2009 6:03pm

Well, it ain't called the Tallaght Bahn for nothing. :P (That's a play on the word "Taliban" - if some people haven't heard it yet :P)

Seriously though, we should have guards on some of the trams, both on the red and green lines. Some people say that having guards on a tram isn't necessary, but if someone is getting racist comments hurled at them and some ****ing yob is kicking and screaming, they need to have a good taser or two. I'm not proposing a guard per tram. Just random checks, like the ticket people. :pac:

Nostradamus · 12-04-2009 6:18pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

Does anyone else notice a greater amount of racism on the red line compared to the Green line?

for example, last week when I was last on the red line, I saw two young girls hurl abuse at a spanish student because he had curly hair - the language out of them was horrific - not to mention they were spilling their cans of Carling everywhere.
At the same time, two young lads were shouting "Get home you ******!" at the driver of the luas - and kept hitting the glass door - and this was only around 5pm of a day. All of them had got on at Jervis street and alighted the luas at a place called Goldenbridge.
Another example was today, some young lads were shouting revolting comments at a paraplegic old man, who had a Asian carer pushing him in a wheelchair. Some of the comments were along the lines of, he should be walking in order to get practice for the Special Olympics. Thankfully these people got off the luas at a place called Fatima.
I must admit, all on the years on the Green Line, I have yet to see the type of racism that I have seen on the Red Line. Thankfully I don't get the Red Line very often.
Why did they route the luas through these areas, surely they could have gone around them!

Just part and parcel of the Skanger element we have to deal with in this country. We have a police force who simply does not eh, "police". Two busy sitting in squad cars, or depending on CCTV do make their jobs easier.

If the DART Underground and Metro North is going ahead then we need a Transport Police for Dublin.

MiniD · 12-04-2009 7:10pm

I've posted many times on here about the scum on the Luas. It is a total free for all, from intimidation at stops to having to put up with scum terrorising passengers for the whole journey.

The red line just seems to attract them. Last week during rush hour a ticket inspector tried to remove two scumbags from the tram at Jervis. They hurled abuse at passengers and kicked the doors, then ran down the platform and boarded the tram again. I used the tram twice yesterday and on both occasions there were a gang of drunks/junkies drinking on the tram between Museum and Fatima and later another group off their head heading into town.

So much for the expensive CCTV advertising campaign currently running.

amacachi · 12-04-2009 7:13pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

Why did they route the luas through these areas, surely they could have gone around them!

Yeah, why put a tramline through populated areas? So stupid, should just put it through some nice fields.

mikemac · 12-04-2009 8:27pm

They need those security guys that Irish rail use.
The size of them, they'd snap you in two :eek:

AlekSmart · 13-04-2009 1:08am

All of them had got on at Jervis street and alighted the luas at a place called Goldenbridge.

Thankfully these people got off the luas at a place called Fatima.

You could virtually timetable the occurrences and locations of this type of behaviour on the Red Line now.

In true Irish/UK style EVERYBODY knows the locations and has known them for some time now,but nobody is allowed refer to the fact that these occurrences are easily pinpointed and dealt with if enough force is utilized.

Remember the LUAS is the newest form of Public Transport we possess and SHOULD be fully capable of rejecting these individuals......Identify,publicise and totally BAN these CHILDREN from the system.

It wont phase them too much as they will revert to their tried and trusted method of transport......Bus Atha Cliath,which has managed to avoid any references to their domination of its South West Dublin services for many years now.

There is little point in us as a society investing a single cent in any more Public Infrastructure IF it`s only to be utilized as a plaything by overprovided for and supremely confident savages.....:mad:

Luas questions

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