A Mere Mention of Abortion.

lazygal · 12-03-2012 5:28pm

I'm pregnant and voiced my prochoice views in company recently. Even the most fair minded of the group were aghast that a pregnant woman can see why another woman would need an abortion for ANY reason and wouldn't see it as her place to prevent medical treatment. I was asked repeatedly if being pregnant hadn't given me a different view. It has, its a damn f-ing hard thing to carry a child for nine months when you're puking for the first four and have backache, hormone craziness and constant urinating to contend with. And I want and planned for this baby. If I wasn't in the happy and privileged position of being able to care for and afford a child, I would be considering all my options.

As I said earlier in the thread, most pro lifers are pro life until the baby is pushed out. Then they don't give a damn about the practicalities of raising a child, beyond platitudes about 'support', 'adoption' and 'cherishing all children'. Who would raise my child for me if I didn't want it? I'm married so can't give it up for adoption. Are the pro lifers on the thread going to help women with unwanted children out in terms of support during the ****tIness that is pregnancy and child rearing?

Malari · 12-03-2012 5:35pm

lazygal wrote: »

I'm pregnant and voiced my prochoice views in company recently. Even the most fair minded of the group were aghast that a pregnant woman can see why another woman would need an abortion for ANY reason and wouldn't see it as her place to prevent medical treatment. I was asked repeatedly if being pregnant hadn't given me a different view. It has, its a damn f-ing hard thing to carry a child for nine months when you're puking for the first four and have backache, hormone craziness and constant urinating to contend with. And I want and planned for this baby. If I wasn't in the happy and privileged position of being able to care for and afford a child, I would be considering all my options.

As I said earlier in the thread, most pro lifers are pro life until the baby is pushed out. Then they don't give a damn about the practicalities of raising a child, beyond platitudes about 'support', 'adoption' and 'cherishing all children'. Who would raise my child for me if I didn't want it? I'm married so can't give it up for adoption. Are the pro lifers on the thread going to help women with unwanted children out in terms of support during the ****tIness that is pregnancy and child rearing?

I didn't know that was the case.

eviltwin · 12-03-2012 5:56pm

I was already a mother when I had an abortion....in fact a large proportion of women from Ireland travelling have already had kids. The stats now are showing abortions in the teens / 20's are falling and rising in the 35+ group. They probably never expected to find themselves in the situation they were in.

iguana · 12-03-2012 8:16pm

lazygal wrote: »

I'm pregnant and voiced my prochoice views in company recently. Even the most fair minded of the group were aghast that a pregnant woman can see why another woman would need an abortion for ANY reason and wouldn't see it as her place to prevent medical treatment. I was asked repeatedly if being pregnant hadn't given me a different view. It has, its a damn f-ing hard thing to carry a child for nine months when you're puking for the first four and have backache, hormone craziness and constant urinating to contend with. And I want and planned for this baby. If I wasn't in the happy and privileged position of being able to care for and afford a child, I would be considering all my options.

I can't imagine for one tiny second how someone could go through pregnancy if they weren't driven by a desire to have a baby at the end of it. Pregnancy is tough, even women who have an easy pregnancy have a 'comparatively' easy pregnancy, not a symptom free walk in the park. I can't eat because I feel sick but if I don't eat I feel worse. Nothing is appetising, all my favourite foods taste vile. Movement makes me nauseous, smells make me nauseous. I'm constipated to the point of bursting day in day out, I hurt for about 3 minutes before every fart and I fart a lot. My breasts hurt all the time, my stomach hurts a lot of the time. I can't sleep as I have to pee every 12 minutes. I feel rotten around the clock, and being only 6 weeks in, I have it on good authority that it's only going to get worse.

Going through a pregnancy you aren't happy about must be utter, utter hell.

Sharrow wrote: »

I wonder how many people would be brave enough to go on a pro choice march?
There have been two prolilfe marches in the last 12 months, the numbers they have get published in the press with photos(usually of kids dragged along) until we get close to the same numbers of people out on the street showing support the notion that there are more pro life people then pro choice people will remain.

I've campaigned for pro-choice before, extensively during the last referendum as a spokesperson who was on national tv a number of times about it. However I know from experience that on occasion pro-choice demonstrations can face violent opposition and I would have to think long and hard about attending a demonstration as I wouldn't like to endanger my (wanted) pregnancy. My husband and I have discussed the march which was mooted recently and I'm currently planning to go if it happens, but only if he is free to attend with me and we'll only stay as long as it remains trouble free.

iguana · 12-03-2012 8:18pm

Malari wrote: »

I didn't know that was the case.

Yup, in Irish law a child born in wedlock can't be adopted as long as the parents are alive. Even if a woman gets pregnant by someone other than her husband I don't think the child can be placed for adoption. Any such baby ends up stuck in the foster care system until they are an adult or their parents both die.

panda100 · 12-03-2012 8:32pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I was already a mother when I had an abortion....in fact a large proportion of women from Ireland travelling have already had kids. The stats now are showing abortions in the teens / 20's are falling and rising in the 35+ group. They probably never expected to find themselves in the situation they were in.

I thought that married women in the 30's were always the highest number of women accessing abortion in the UK. Very few teens or women in their early twenties, could afford flights to UK and cost of termination!

username123 · 12-03-2012 8:43pm

panda100 wrote: »

I thought that married women in the 30's were always the highest number of women accessing abortion in the UK. Very few teens or women in their early twenties, could afford flights to UK and cost of termination!

Probably depends on an individuals situation, 2 friends of mine were helped out by the students union in college for the organising and money for abortions, in one case the money wasnt even a loan - it was just paid for. This was nearly 20 years ago.

eviltwin · 13-03-2012 10:59am

panda100 wrote: »

I thought that married women in the 30's were always the highest number of women accessing abortion in the UK. Very few teens or women in their early twenties, could afford flights to UK and cost of termination!

You could be right...I haven't seen a breakdown of ages but I just recall that the numbers of women/ girls in their teens and 20's is dropping every year while its actually increasing for women over 30 which is quite worrying.

K-9 · 13-03-2012 11:47am

eviltwin wrote: »

You could be right...I haven't seen a breakdown of ages but I just recall that the numbers of women/ girls in their teens and 20's is dropping every year while its actually increasing for women over 30 which is quite worrying.

The teenage pregnancy rate has drooped for a few years now so that would be consistent, plus first time mothers are generally getting older overall.

cofy · 13-03-2012 2:34pm

A couple of years ago I bumped into an old friend. We got to talking about children and when I was told that I could not have children and then after getting engaged I found out I was pregnant. She then told me that she was also told the same thing. She met a guy after a few weeks of their first time together found out that she was pregnant. She felt that she could not handle this pregnancy and had an abortion. She thought I would hate her for doing this as she felt that I would have more of a reason than some for being against abortion. She talked about a conversation she had heard where people were vehimently against abortion, I asked her what did they have to say about unmarried mothers (as this is what she would have been if she had gone through with the pregnancy). She had'nt thought about that, the very same people had been very vocal on that too. Unmarried mothers were getting too much from the state, it was their decision to have the baby, etc.

I was surprised that she thought I would hate her until I read the experiences others have had here on this thread. Like some, she felt she could not tell anyone for fear of being labelled. My poor friend did not even tell her family or friends. Until she had spoken to me the only other person who knew about this was the father, they were still together but never talked about it.

I would love for her to read this thread.

hattoncracker · 13-03-2012 2:59pm

cofy wrote: »

A couple of years ago I bumped into an old friend. We got to talking about children and when I was told that I could not have children and then after getting engaged I found out I was pregnant. She then told me that she was also told the same thing. She met a guy after a few weeks of their first time together found out that she was pregnant. She felt that she could not handle this pregnancy and had an abortion. She thought I would hate her for doing this as she felt that I would have more of a reason than some for being against abortion. She talked about a conversation she had heard where people were vehimently against abortion, I asked her what did they have to say about unmarried mothers (as this is what she would have been if she had gone through with the pregnancy). She had'nt thought about that, the very same people had been very vocal on that too. Unmarried mothers were getting too much from the state, it was their decision to have the baby, etc.

I was surprised that she thought I would hate her until I read the experiences others have had here on this thread. Like some, she felt she could not tell anyone for fear of being labelled. My poor friend did not even tell her family or friends. Until she had spoken to me the only other person who knew about this was the father, they were still together but never talked about it.

I would love for her to read this thread.

I didn't start out with the intention that this is what the thread would turn into, but I'm very glad it has gone this way.. It's a frightening thing to try and confide in someome about this, you never know how they're going to react.

embee · 13-03-2012 6:30pm

Mollikins wrote: »

I don’t have much of a problem with abortion itself. I don’t agree with it but at the same time I don’t think I’d judge someone else for having one. It’s not a decision a woman takes lightly and it’s likely she has a very good reason for doing so. But what I do have a problem with is women using it as a method of contraception. It’s on the increase and it’s very disturbing to hear of such stories.

Also the 24 week cut off point needs to be revised. So many babies are being born earlier and earlier and surviving thanks to advances in medicine. I know of 2 babies born severely premature (23 and 26 weeks) that are getting stronger everyday and are most definitely going to survive. The little baby born at 23 weeks legally could have been aborted if that was his mothers wish. And that is so incredibly wrong.

Mollikins, 24 weeks is "viability", according to Irish law. If you look at the literature, babies born younger than 24 weeks have little chance of survival, and a high risk of long-term morbidities which can be life-limiting to an extreme level. 24 weeks was arrived at as it takes into account the possible quality of life that that baby, child, teenager, adult will have.... it's not decided on to be cold or cruel, it is just the age below which babies have major, major problems.

Daisy M · 15-03-2012 2:08pm

I lived in the UK over 15 years ago and became friends with an Irish girl, in turn I met some of her friends and got to know them on a casual basis. One girl had 2 children but previous to that she had 4 abortions. She had 3 abortions first fell pregnant with her first child planned an abortion but didnt get around to it in time, she had the child planned a pregnancy to have a sibling for the first child, got pregnant, became scared, had another abortion and eventually had another accidental pregnancy which resulted in child 2. Abortions were to her a contraceptive. In the same group of 4 girls all the rest had had at least one abortion. These were normal girls from normal backgrounds. I think outside this group I was the only person who knew, it wasnt something they spoke about, so whos to say that if you live in a country where abortion is legal and easily obtained that this type of practice is not common?

Morag · 15-03-2012 2:13pm

Repeat abortions are uncommon, according to BPAS statics.
The notion that abortion will be used as contraception is another one of those myths pro lifers propagate.

If a woman has had 4 abortions then I would be wondering what is wrong with her.
Where that sort of thing happens, there is a lack of taking responsibility for her health and there are often underlying emotional or mental issues.

Daisy M · 15-03-2012 2:17pm

In order to get the abortions she said she was contemplating suicide. I suppose what was "wrong" with her was that it was a very easy choice for her to make, she said she had no regrets so maybe her personality was lacking in consicience, she had the same partner who was the father in all cases and he seemed ok with it all too.

Just to add I wonder how correct the statistics are given that a woman could give a made up name and that its still such a taboo subject. As I say this was over 15 years ago nearer 20 and even in the UK it wasnt something that people talked freely about. I find it hard to believe that I came across the one group who all had at least 1 abortion and some had 2 and this lady had 4, I dont doubt that some of them went on to have more.

Morag · 15-03-2012 2:23pm

I find that boggling as there are ranges of contraceptives out there and health professionals which would have been more then willing to work with them to find something which will work for them and would be a hell of a lot cheaper and easier on her system then abortions.

Then again she could have been using the abortion pill, which is easier on the body and costs less then a surgical procedure, but it still would be far from the norm.

BPAS stats usually show that those women who tend to have more then one abortion normally would have only two and that tends to be when they are young late teens early twenties and then when they are in their forties and have had contraception failure associated with menopause.

Daisy M · 15-03-2012 2:31pm

I dont understand it either, from what I have read most women find an unplanned pregnancy traumatic and dont want to find themselves in that position again whatever decision they make.
I dont think the abortion pill was available at that time, I was always under the impression that they had had a surgical procedure.

Giselle · 15-03-2012 2:32pm

Sharrow wrote: »

The notion that abortion will be used as contraception is another one of those myths pro lifers propagate.

Please don't propagate the myth that all people who are 'pro-life' (isn't everyone??) are liars who decimate falsehoods.

Not all people with issues about abortion think the same way or spout propaganda.

Morag · 15-03-2012 2:45pm

Giselle wrote: »

Please don't propagate the myth that all people who are 'pro-life' (isn't everyone??) are liars who decimate falsehoods.

Not all people with issues about abortion think the same way or spout propaganda.

I take your point Giselle that there are people who are pro life moderates.

I have gotten to know more of them over the years but many of the myths are put about maliciously from certain pro life campaigning groups and then propagated by people who don't question them.

Giselle · 15-03-2012 3:12pm

Sharrow wrote: »

I take your point Giselle that there are people who are pro life moderates.

I have gotten to know more of them over the years but many of the myths are put about maliciously from certain pro life campaigning groups and then propagated by people who don't question them.

Its just a subject that far too easily lends itself to unflattering generalisations on both sides, which serves no purpose other than to stifle open exchange and debate.

I think there's more people who think as I do than people realise, silenced as they are by fear of stereotyping.

We all know who the guilty parties are re: scaremongering and propaganda, and I simply refuse to be assumed to share their agenda or mind-set.

Daisy M · 15-03-2012 4:03pm

I would consider a foetus to be a baby once its conceived, in my mind its a baby who feels and thinks. I had a miscarriage with my first pregnancy at 11 weeks, I consider that short pregnancy to have been my baby, I believe that one day I will finally get to meet him/her. So when I read someone saying that if a pregnancy is terminated that that baby will never know the difference I am torn. This may be the case but we dont know that for sure and logically we need to acknowledge that it could be either.

Every set of circumstance is different and I dont want to judge any lady who feels she had no other option. I have to trust that they made what they thought to be the best decision and I wish them well.

I do wish that free contraception was available in Ireland not only for helping to prevent unwanted pregnancies but also STDS.

eviltwin · 16-03-2012 12:43pm

Daisy M wrote: »

I would consider a foetus to be a baby once its conceived, in my mind its a baby who feels and thinks. I had a miscarriage with my first pregnancy at 11 weeks, I consider that short pregnancy to have been my baby, I believe that one day I will finally get to meet him/her. So when I read someone saying that if a pregnancy is terminated that that baby will never know the difference I am torn. This may be the case but we dont know that for sure and logically we need to acknowledge that it could be either.

Every set of circumstance is different and I dont want to judge any lady who feels she had no other option. I have to trust that they made what they thought to be the best decision and I wish them well.

I do wish that free contraception was available in Ireland not only for helping to prevent unwanted pregnancies but also STDS.

You come across as terribly judgemental. Not intentionally perhaps but you seem to think its no more of a decision than deciding to get a smear.

I work with women who have had abortions. So far I have only ever talked to one who has had more than one and she was in an abusive relationship and basically coerced by her partner at the time. I know having been there myself its not something you would want to do more than once, physically, emotionally, financially its the worst form of contraception I can think of.

You may feel a baby is a baby from conception but everyone has their own view on that. I personally don't believe that myself which maybe made it easier for me to have an abortion. I am sorry to hear of your loss, I can imagine when you lose a baby that was desperately wanted hearing about people terminating pregnancies must be hard. But everyone has to make their own decisions based on what is going on in their world at the time.

howsyourtusk · 16-03-2012 12:52pm

I haven't read all the contributions on this thread so I may be going over old ground. We have de facto abortion in Ireland. It is legal, you just have to travel. Excluding those who cannot financially do so and traumatising those who must leave the country, possibly on their own, to undertake what could potentially be a difficult and traumatic experience. It's disgusting that we continue to wash our hands of this situation.

iguana · 16-03-2012 1:13pm

Daisy M wrote: »

I would consider a foetus to be a baby once its conceived, in my mind its a baby who feels and thinks.

Between weeks 4 and 11 of pregnancy there is no foetus, just an embryo. It's only in week 11 of the pregnancy (or week 9 gestationally) that the embryo becomes a foetus. Before week 4 (or week 2 gestationally) there is a zygote and then a blastocyst. And it certainly doesn't think at that stage, it's not a subjective matter, we know for a fact through the measurement of brain activity that embryos don't think and their ability to feel is very limited.

I have lost a pregnancy too, a very much wanted one. And believe me to me I lost my baby, but I'm aware enough to know that what I grieve for is the lost potential, my hopes, my dreams not a baby who had ever experienced love or happiness or thought. And I love my baby that I am carrying now and I would be devastated if anything goes wrong but I know that all of the emotional thoughts I have about my baby, about our connection, about what the baby wants, etc are all my feelings and imaginings. The reality is that I'm carrying an embryo which is not now, and won't be for many months, capable of thought or emotion.

I am a friend · 16-03-2012 1:15pm

eviltwin wrote: »

everyone has their own view on that

exactly and you come across as terribly judgemental of Daisy M.

Kooli · 16-03-2012 1:25pm

I am a friend wrote: »

exactly and you come across as terribly judgemental of Daisy M.

Actually I thought her response was respectful and compassionate. Disagreement is not the same as judgement.

I am a friend · 16-03-2012 1:30pm

Kooli wrote: »

Actually I thought her response was respectful and compassionate. Disagreement is not the same as judgement.

telling someone else they are judgemental is making a judgement

eviltwin · 16-03-2012 1:40pm

I am a friend wrote: »

telling someone else they are judgemental is making a judgement

I'm not judging her, far from it and I retract it if she finds it so. I gather she is prolife or has leanings that way and I respect that. I don't think I have any more of a valid opinion on this than she does. I am just pointing out that the stats are quite clear and women having repeat abortions are usually those in abusive situations or who have other issues. Its not really true that women see and use abortion as contraception. It is however a myth that is continually put out there by certain pro life groups and needs to be discounted.

Daisy M · 16-03-2012 4:00pm

Honestly I dont think that anyone wants to argue over what is a really sensitive topic. I would hate for someone who had an abortion to think that I am judging them and think they were using it as some kind of contraceptive. I have another friend who had an abortion and who still 20 years later is affected by it. When I mentioned about using it as a contraceptive it was about the woman who had an 4 abortions in a relatively short time frame, over the course of 3.5 years and she also had a full term pregnancy in this time. I doubt that anyone could condone this behaviour.

Eviltwin what part of my that you quoted came across judgemental or gave the impression that I thought hving a termination was similar to having a smear? I am genuinely curious I have reread the quoted post and I cant see it? Also you said that I may feel a baby is a baby from when they are conceived yes I do feel that, I am entitled to feel like that as others are entitled to feel its not, I stated how I felt to explain why I am not comfortable with abortion and yet I am not anti abortion either, basically my feelings on the matter are torn.
Also just to add hearing of other people choosing to have abortions doesnt make me angry with them. Even when I lost my baby I never felt like that. The way I see it is someone elses baby/pregnancy was not mine it had no bearing on my life as mine had no bearing on theirs.

I really do wish that there was more prevention help via contraception available freely to all women be it the morning after pill. condoms ect. The amount of girls I know who have came off the pill as it didnt suit them and ended up with an unplanned pregnancy is unreal. We ladies should be able to attend free clinics where someone will help us find the contraception that will work best with our bodies and lifestyle. Obviously I do know contraception doesnt always work but I believe free clinics and contraception would go someway towards prevention of unwanted pregnancies and traumatised women.

fatmammycat · 16-03-2012 4:10pm

Daisy M wrote: »

When I mentioned about using it as a contraceptive it was about the woman who had an 4 abortions in a relatively short time frame, over the course of 3.5 years and she also had a full term pregnancy in this time. I doubt that anyone could condone this behaviour.
.

I'm actually going to disagree with you here: an abortion in the UK a legal medical procedure, it's none of our business how many a person has, and not up to us to condone it or not. It is STILL her body and her choice, regardless of her having one abortion or four or twenty. We might baulk at it, but we either accept a woman has autonomy over her body in this regard or we do not.

howsyourtusk · 16-03-2012 4:14pm

And on and on with the moralising!! The use of the word "condone" is just your attempt to force moral judgement on this person. I would think, as other posters have said, that someone having 4 abortions in a short period of time is someone who is probably suffering from other difficulties in life and should be given the help she needs to deal with those underlying issues.

eviltwin · 16-03-2012 4:15pm

I think I read your reply and thought "here we go again" cause I have heard so many stories about women who have had multiple abortions and have yet to meet more than one. Its an argument the pro life lobby use a lot, that if we have abortion in Ireland women will use it like the pill and I don't believe for one second that would ever happen. I am sorry for calling you judgemental, your later post shows you are anything but.

But I would hate for anyone on the fence to think having an abortion is so run of the mill that you would go back for a second just like it was something as straight forward as a smear so I do think we need to be careful how we discuss it.

I can only give my experiences of it...I feel no one really listens to the women who have been there, everyone is so busy with their point of view that they never actually want to hear the reality, and both sides are guilty of that. I will admit myself I really did think that once I was home I would be fine and move on with my life like it was nothing. I wish someone had been around to give me a proper picture of it so I would be prepared for the way it would affect me. I wish there was more help, I wish there were places to talk about it without being afraid or it turning into a huge moral debate.

The facts are we are stuck with it...as long as people have sex there will be unplanned pregnancies and women will want abortions. I think we owe it to them to allow them to have those abortions here in the country they live in, in safety and without fear. We also desperately need proper after abortion care and counselling for those who need it.

fatmammycat · 16-03-2012 4:20pm

eviltwin wrote: »

The facts are we are stuck with it...as long as people have sex there will be unplanned pregnancies and women will want abortions. I think we owe it to them to allow them to have those abortions here in the country they live in, in safety and without fear. We also desperately need proper after abortion care and counselling for those who need it.

Well said.

fatmammycat · 16-03-2012 4:23pm

Daisy M wrote: »

In order to get the abortions she said she was contemplating suicide. I suppose what was "wrong" with her was that it was a very easy choice for her to make, she said she had no regrets so maybe her personality was lacking in consicience, she had the same partner who was the father in all cases and he seemed ok with it all too.

As for being judgemental, this is quite a remarkable statement.

howsyourtusk · 16-03-2012 4:26pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

As for being judgemental, this is quite a remarkable statement.

Indeed. Do people realise that you can only have a conscience when it comes to sentient human beings? An embryo is not a sentient human being, it doesn't have thoughts, you're not betraying it or treating it ill. This sort of language is just odd frankly.

Daisy M · 16-03-2012 4:30pm

howsyourtusk wrote: »

And on and on with the moralising!! The use of the word "condone" is just your attempt to force moral judgement on this person. I would think, as other posters have said, that someone having 4 abortions in a short period of time is someone who is probably suffering from other difficulties in life and should be given the help she needs to deal with those underlying issues.

Honestly she didnt I knew her quiet well and she was lifelong friends with my best friend. She liked going out liked having a good time and told me herself she felt no guilt and having the procedure wasnt too bad, she had got used to it.

You are trying to paint a picture that everywoman who has an abortion is conflicted and torn its not true just as its not true to say that every woman who has never had a termination has never considered one. This is not a black or white issue, different people have different needs and different opinions. I am entitled to say I would never consider an abortion without it upsetting anyone else just as they are entitled to say they would consider or have had one.

howsyourtusk · 16-03-2012 4:33pm

But what we're saying is why should she feel guilt? Who the hell has she betrayed?

Kooli · 16-03-2012 4:50pm

howsyourtusk wrote: »

But what we're saying is why should she feel guilt? Who the hell has she betrayed?

Exactly!
I hate the notion that abortion is only OK if it's traumatic, and if the woman is torn apart by it for years after.
Yes, for some women it's awful, of course. But for some women it's a good decision and there are no regrets and no trauma!

OK so there's a woman who had four abortions, and you wonder what was wrong with her. I believe it's better than her now having five unwanted children, which may have happened if she lived here.

eviltwin · 16-03-2012 5:05pm

I would think there are very few women who don't have some issues afterwards. Not full blown depression perhaps but something. Its silly to say that having a baby or putting one up for adoption will have an impact but an abortion won't.

fatmammycat · 16-03-2012 5:08pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I would think there are very few women who don't have some issues afterwards. Not full blown depression perhaps but something. Its silly to say that having a baby or putting one up for adoption will have an impact but an abortion won't.

It's not silly to say that, I know a number of women who have had abortions, and don't regret them in any way shape or form. Two of them who went on to become mothers. The reality is abortion is different for every woman, but we should not judge them because of that.

eviltwin · 16-03-2012 5:13pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

It's not silly to say that, I know a number of women who have had abortions, and don't regret them in any way shape or form. Two of them who went on to become mothers. The reality is abortion is different for every woman, but we should not judge them because of that.

Who is judging? I have had an abortion myself...I had a 12 yr old daughter at the time, the following year I had another baby.

I did my research beforehand, I went into it with my eyes open and I fell to bits after it, I didn't feel guilty or that I had made the wrong decision, I didn't regret it but the impact it had on me especially around what would have been my due date hit me for six made worse by the fact I couldn't exactly unburden myself to anyone.

I'm very much prochoice but it should be an informed choice of all the things that may / may not happen so then we can we be sure we are giving women all the facts. I think if I had known what to expect emotionally and had somewhere to go I would have saved myself a lot of pain.

fatmammycat · 16-03-2012 5:27pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Who is judging? I have had an abortion myself...I had a 12 yr old daughter at the time, the following year I had another baby.

I did my research beforehand, I went into it with my eyes open and I fell to bits after it, I didn't feel guilty or that I had made the wrong decision, I didn't regret it but the impact it had on me especially around what would have been my due date hit me for six made worse by the fact I couldn't exactly unburden myself to anyone.

I'm very much prochoice but it should be an informed choice of all the things that may / may not happen so then we can we be sure we are giving women all the facts. I think if I had known what to expect emotionally and had somewhere to go I would have saved myself a lot of pain.

I don't mean you were judging, I mean we, as a society. Nor would I dismiss what you went through, again I say for every woman the experience is different.

Kooli · 16-03-2012 5:33pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I would think there are very few women who don't have some issues afterwards. Not full blown depression perhaps but something. Its silly to say that having a baby or putting one up for adoption will have an impact but an abortion won't.

It's silly to say that an abortion will never lead to issues, but it's also silly to say it always will.

I would imagine that if abortion was legalised and the stigma was reduced, the aftermath would be a lot easier for a lot of women.
Obviously some women would still be massively affected because of their own difficulties with abortion, but there are probably a lot of women out there who don't have huge issues with abortion themselves but are impacted by the stigma and shame brought by the attitudes of others.

eviltwin · 16-03-2012 5:42pm

Kooli wrote: »

It's silly to say that an abortion will never lead to issues, but it's also silly to say it always will.

I would imagine that if abortion was legalised and the stigma was reduced, the aftermath would be a lot easier for a lot of women.
Obviously some women would still be massively affected because of their own difficulties with abortion, but there are probably a lot of women out there who don't have huge issues with abortion themselves but are impacted by the stigma and shame brought by the attitudes of others.

No I don't think it will for everyone but its something that has to be taken into consideration. Again though if it was legal we would have better pre abortion counselling in place so people wouldn't make quick decisions like they are often forced to do now.

chocolategirl · 16-03-2012 6:07pm

Hi all,

I've been following this thread with interest as abortion has become a huge isssue for me recently. Normally I wouldn't post but from the last few pages I've felt that I have to say something. I don't expect anyone to understand and I realise this isn't a place for me to pour out my own grief or guilt but I do just want to share and I understand totally any negative comments.

I've had four abortions. I'm 37 years of age.

I had my first abortion when I as 16. I was at the age when I took risks but thought I'd be ok however I became pregnant. For ages I refused to even believe I was pregnant. My sister had just had a baby and there was absolute murder going on in the house and my family were devastated. I couldn't see any othr way but to have an abortion for everyones sake. I found out how to make the arrangements and I went. I'd never even really been on a bus on my own before and I'd never been on a plane. I went on my own and I cried buckets. I bled so badly at the clinic that they thought they might not be able to let me out. At the airport I fainted and the flight was delayed 10 hours. My jeans were bloodstained. I was totally hysterical and an older couple looked after me. I was so scared of my parents finding out.

Afterwards I was devastated and I stayed that way until I had my son at 19. I became pregnant with him on purpose to combat the crippling grief I felt over losing my baby. To me it really was a loss even though I'd had an abortion.

Two years later I was on the pill and became pregnant. I was young and on my own with a small child so again I had to make the trip. I didn't feel I had any other choice. It was a horrible feeling of being trapped and very very scary.

Another three years later after being on the Depo Provera I became pregnant for a fourth time. I decided to give my body a break from the Depo and had just missed a shot by two weeks (I had not even had a period yet) and I became pregnant again. Again finding myself in the same situation I had another abortion, by now my third.

I'm not going into huge detail about how I felt on these last two occasions but upset, devastated, frightened and traumatised are some words. And of course hating myself and I'm a horrible murdering person. On these two occasions I had begged people for help, to let me stay with them or find me somewhere to stay so I could have these children and give them up for adoption but there was noone.

Many years later (well 13) I thought I'd put all that behind me. Of course looking back I dont' exactly like myself and in ways am glad that there's no abortion in Ireland because at least the trauma and upset of having to wait and be tormented has made me feel in some way better because I feel I should be suffering. Anyway I took a bit of a risk in Januray ( and yes I know with me being as fertile as I am, I shouldn't have) but I was worried the next day so went and got the morning after pill. It didn't work and I became pregnant. My job and my home are gone so I have absolutely nothing to offer a child and also I have a 17 year old boy who would be gutted if I suddenly became pregnant. I had another abortion. If I didn't have a child I would have killed myself.

I thought all this was behind me, I've been so careful for years and years and I thought taking the morning after pill was the wise thing to do. I absolutely hate myself. I love children and had hoped to meet someone and have a little girl, the dream you know, all the bad stuff beind me and being able to enjoy a pregnancy but no instead this absolute nightmare again. I havent' stopped shaking since the day I found out I was pregnant and I've had a few total breakdowns. I'm not trying to get sympathy by the way but maybe to say I'm not a total mental case, I haven't used abortion as contraception, I've been on contraception most of my life.

I'd hate me if I was reading this and I'd judge me. I can't believe this is me I'm talking about.

Giselle · 16-03-2012 6:16pm

chocolategirl wrote: »

Hi all,

I've been following this thread with interest as abortion has become a huge isssue for me recently. Normally I wouldn't post but from the last few pages I've felt that I have to say something. I don't expect anyone to understand and I realise this isn't a place for me to pour out my own grief or guilt but I do just want to share and I understand totally any negative comments.

I've had four abortions. I'm 37 years of age.

I had my first abortion when I as 16. I was at the age when I took risks but thought I'd be ok however I became pregnant. For ages I refused to even believe I was pregnant. My sister had just had a baby and there was absolute murder going on in the house and my family were devastated. I couldn't see any othr way but to have an abortion for everyones sake. I found out how to make the arrangements and I went. I'd never even really been on a bus on my own before and I'd never been on a plane. I went on my own and I cried buckets. I bled so badly at the clinic that they thought they might not be able to let me out. At the airport I fainted and the flight was delayed 10 hours. My jeans were bloodstained. I was totally hysterical and an older couple looked after me. I was so scared of my parents finding out.

Afterwards I was devastated and I stayed that way until I had my son at 19. I became pregnant with him on purpose to combat the crippling grief I felt over losing my baby. To me it really was a loss even though I'd had an abortion.

Two years later I was on the pill and became pregnant. I was young and on my own with a small child so again I had to make the trip. I didn't feel I had any other choice. It was a horrible feeling of being trapped and very very scary.

Another three years later after being on the Depo Provera I became pregnant for a fourth time. I decided to give my body a break from the Depo and had just missed a shot by two weeks (I had not even had a period yet) and I became pregnant again. Again finding myself in the same situation I had another abortion, by now my third.

I'm not going into huge detail about how I felt on these last two occasions but upset, devastated, frightened and traumatised are some words. And of course hating myself and I'm a horrible murdering person. On these two occasions I had begged people for help, to let me stay with them or find me somewhere to stay so I could have these children and give them up for adoption but there was noone.

Many years later (well 13) I thought I'd put all that behind me. Of course looking back I dont' exactly like myself and in ways am glad that there's no abortion in Ireland because at least the trauma and upset of having to wait and be tormented has made me feel in some way better because I feel I should be suffering. Anyway I took a bit of a risk in Januray ( and yes I know with me being as fertile as I am, I shouldn't have) but I was worried the next day so went and got the morning after pill. It didn't work and I became pregnant. My job and my home are gone so I have absolutely nothing to offer a child and also I have a 17 year old boy who would be gutted if I suddenly became pregnant. I had another abortion. If I didn't have a child I would have killed myself.

I thought all this was behind me, I've been so careful for years and years and I thought taking the morning after pill was the wise thing to do. I absolutely hate myself. I love children and had hoped to meet someone and have a little girl, the dream you know, all the bad stuff beind me and being able to enjoy a pregnancy but no instead this absolute nightmare again. I havent' stopped shaking since the day I found out I was pregnant and I've had a few total breakdowns. I'm not trying to get sympathy by the way but maybe to say I'm not a total mental case, I haven't used abortion as contraception, I've been on contraception most of my life.

I'd hate me if I was reading this and I'd judge me. I can't believe this is me I'm talking about.

Chocolategirl, there is nothing to gain at this point by hating yourself, and nothing to gain by continuing to feel this way. Please go to see your doctor and get help. Perhaps with counselling you can learn to be at peace with yourself and your decisions.

I wish the very best for you and your son, and truly hope you get some help in coping with this.

Daisy M · 16-03-2012 6:28pm

Chocolategirl I dont hate you and I dont think anyone could. You arer brave to write your story and I hope doing so helps you a little. I am sorry if my post regarding my friend who had 4 abortions upset you (or anyone else who may have read it). You give a different side to the story and have very well portrayed the anguish that a lot of women who have abortions hab=ve to live with. In hindsight this thread has me realise that I am more opposed to abortion because of the trauma many women go through when reaching the decision to have one and go through with having one, than I am about the unborn baby. If when my daughters are older and have an unwanted pregnancy and choose termination I will support them but my main worry will be of any long term repercussions they may have. My friend who had one abortion was terrified of ever becoming pregnant it affected her relationships and her judgement on if she ever wanted to have children.

chocolategirl · 16-03-2012 6:38pm

Thanks Giselle

Daisy M I certainly used look back on my 'old life' and think what an awful person I was 'back then'. I seriously didn't think abortion was anything I'd ever have to deal with again. I KNOW this time I had no choice, if there had been even one positive about my life I would have gone ahead with it. As it was I'd just been offered a new job and there was no way I could have taken it pregnant. I also had to think about the child I already have. He has alot of growing up issues and is doing his leaving. I'd love a baby, I adore children and know I'd be a much better mother now than when I was younger.

I discussed my decision with friends and with my sister and they all agreed that I didn't have a choice or a decision to make. I considered everyone and everything else before myself. There are many many factors in this. My heart is absolutely broken. Yes there are repercussions wth abortion but having had a child in my teens I look back and realise that it wasn't fair on him.

IsaMtq · 16-03-2012 6:58pm

I’m not sure exactly where I stand in the whole abortion debate. Can I be prolife and prochoice at the same time? I feel in my heart that there is something fundamentally wrong about abortion, yet there’s a whole other side to it, who knows what circumstances lead a person to make this decision, I wouldn’t stand in judgement of anyone who has gone through it, who would I be to do that, and who is anyone.

I think the more important thing is to try to reduce the need for it by preventing unwanted pregnancies before they happen. I know a lot of times these things just happen, but I’d say in the majority of cases its people being careless and alcohol playing a big factor. I’d prefer if it was just more ingrained in people to be super cautious to prevent them from having to make that decision.

IsaMtq · 16-03-2012 7:10pm

The length of time an abortion can be carried out now stands at 24 weeks, this is unbelievable really and definitely needs to be changed.

World's Smallest Baby: 21 weeks and six days
On October 24th 2006, Amillia Taylor was born at 21 weeks and six days. No baby born at less than 23 weeks gestation had ever survived, but 10 ounce Amillia was able to pull through (and even was trying to breath and cry on her own at birth). Hospitals had initially hoped to release her yesterday, but decided to keep the now healthy baby a few extra days for observation. Her mother doesn't mind the wait, she's just proud and happy that Amillia is healthy: "Even though she's only four pounds (1.8 kilos) now, she's plump to me."

Link

A Mere Mention of Abortion.

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