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Gluten Free

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    #32
    ford2600
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    The hunter gather of 10,000 years ago would also probably be dead before he hits 30. We have evolved a lot since then and our guts have similarly changed. Just because someone did something a long time ago under different circumstances doesn't mean its directly applicable to modern humans. Anecdotal evidence isn't real evidence, no matter how great you may or may not feel after a sandwich.

    I'd be interested to see why modern irish beef is less nutritious than cattle 10k years ago.

    Basing a diet on what we think people ate 10,000 years ago is pretty fanicful, even if the foods they had available were still around.

    I spent a few days with African hunter gatherer's and a few things stood out
    *they all looked miserable
    * when I got there they hadn't eaten in two days
    * Killing wild animals which are afraid of you with only primitive weapons is really hard
    * There was a lot of competition for the nuts, plants etc
    * They were really vulnerable to disease, they covered themselves in smoke by fire at dawn and dusk time to keep away mosquitoes/malaria



    As for Irish beef, it is probably as good a meat source as any along with lamb. I can buy Irish beef in many places with lots of confidence on health of animal; unless I shoot the deer myself I'm very reluctant to eat wild venison given the ignorance of your typical Irish deer stalker. The point being the modern processing of meat and disease control is a good thing in the main.

    I'd be wary of lot fed beef, USA style, but the scientific evidence on fat profile etc is a little different but not compelling from what I can make out.

    Irish mountain lamb is another excellent meat choice.

    I know chicken is the meat choice most commonly reccommended on here which I always find strange.


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    #33
    feelgoodinc27
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭feelgoodinc27


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    I'm not sure if it's here or just in the US but I read recently that meat is now fortified with things like B12 due to the lowering quality and processing. However everything you read is US centric so.

    Sounds like the US for sure, cattle here would get minerals to counter deficiencies, I don't think they get vitamins unless there sick. With advances in nutrition and breeding the quality of meat is only improving I'd say.


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    #34
    ch750536
    Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    The hunter gather of 10,000 years ago would also probably be dead before he hits 30. We have evolved a lot since then and our guts have similarly changed. ...

    But the gluten levels in modern wheat has changed dramatically in 40 years, far too short to evolve around unless premature death is on a mass scale of course.


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    #35
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    I'd wager gluten intolerance is probably real, the science in the area is young but there are some blinded studies out there showing that some people who are coeliac negative have a bad reaction to gluten. From my own perspective, back in my low carb days I was trying to make some low carb bread rolls using vital wheat gluten powder and although it was possibly the nicest bread I've ever tasted, I was doubled over in pain 30 minutes later.

    I'd also say a lot of people who give up wheat feel better because they are also cutting out fructans, which are a potent FODMAP that many people with IBS seem to react badly to.

    As to why people have recently started reacting to a food that's been in our diet for ages: I read a compelling enough theory that iron fortification of wheat products messes with gut bacteria and this can lead to intolerance of otherwise healthy foods. The French don't fortify their wheat flour and seem to suffer far less intolerances to wheat.

    One thing I will say is wheat flour is one of the most processed, bleached, additive ridden food stuffs and I can't really see the harm in chopping it out of the diet if it's not replaced with equally junk-y gluten free alternatives.


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    #36
    fungie
    Registered Users Posts: 688 ✭✭✭fungie


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    I'd wager gluten intolerance is probably real, the science in the area is young but there are some blinded studies out there showing that some people who are coeliac negative have a bad reaction to gluten. From my own perspective, back in my low carb days I was trying to make some low carb bread rolls using vital wheat gluten powder and although it was possibly the nicest bread I've ever tasted, I was doubled over in pain 30 minutes later.

    I'd also say a lot of people who give up wheat feel better because they are also cutting out fructans, which are a potent FODMAP that many people with IBS seem to react badly to.

    As to why people have recently started reacting to a food that's been in our diet for ages: I read a compelling enough theory that iron fortification of wheat products messes with gut bacteria and this can lead to intolerance of otherwise healthy foods. The French don't fortify their wheat flour and seem to suffer far less intolerances to wheat.

    One thing I will say is wheat flour is one of the most processed, bleached, additive ridden food stuffs and I can't really see the harm in chopping it out of the diet if it's not replaced with equally junk-y gluten free alternatives.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23648697

    paper above claims that it doesnt exist. Seen it on IFL science a while back. its a well cited paper in a high impact journal. Another thing that puzzles me is how non celiac gluten intolerance is such a recent thing that only seems to affect middle class people, mainly women.


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    #37
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    vital wheat gluten makes seitan, it shall never be cut, it's amazing and 80% protein deliciousness :D

    I'm not sure if it's real or not but it's sure as hell not as prevalent as people make it out to be, seeing as I've seen studies where poeple are told tehy are eating gluten and then feel bad, and people with self-professed gluten intolerance eating it and no bad affects at all. Same as with MSG. Not saying it's not real, who knows but these days everybody thinks gluten is the devil.


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    #38
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    fungie wrote: »
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23648697

    paper above claims that it doesnt exist. Seen it on IFL science a while back. its a well cited paper in a high impact journal. Another thing that puzzles me is how non celiac gluten intolerance is such a recent thing that only seems to affect middle class people, mainly women.

    This double blind study says it does:

    http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v106/n3/abs/ajg2010487a.html

    Like I said, the science is extremely young in this area, so it cannot be dismissed as yet. Are there people out there who are experiencing the placebo effect from cutting out gluten? Undoubtedly. But that does not mean there aren't people who are legitimately gluten sensitive.


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    #39
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,118 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I would love to not be bothered with gluten free, however I have come to the conclusion that it does affect me and I am better off without it. I really don't care what random people on the internet think or believe, if I feel better without it, then I will cut it out. I did think it was wheat that was the problem, but I am coming to the view that it is gluten. I will continue trying to figure it out but it is a slow process, I do not get violent results from gluten, and I am not celiac, but there is a difference without it.

    I do agree that quite a lot of gluten-free stuff is syntho food and I am trying to avoid it. It is too easy to look for a substitute platform for protein, as in a sandwich. If you get away from that attitude and realise you do not have to have imitation bread, you can eat more healthily.


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    #40
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    ch750536 wrote: »
    But the gluten levels in modern wheat has changed dramatically in 40 years, far too short to evolve around unless premature death is on a mass scale of course.

    40 years is more than enough for the correct bacteria to be present in the gut for general digestive purposes, so you'd be looking at the wheat changing dynamically enough to cause medical issues, right?


    How much more gluten does modern wheat have by the way, 10, 50, 100% more? Gluten is just a protein, its in a lot of things. Wheat has about 80% of its protein in gluten anyway so how much more does "modern" wheat have? Wheat has been systemically bred for favourable characteristics way more than 40 years - don't forget also that GM wheat is not grown for consumption commercially. So what is this strange "modern" wheat? Some strains have about 20-25% less zinc and copper in them, neither of which are even slightly linked to CD.

    Gluten is just the new fad (for a lot of people, not all obv), just like fat and sugar. Do you remember all the hoo haa about MSG a while back - people claimed we weren't evolved to deal with it and by stopping it they didn't get any more headaches or bloating etc Turns out none of that was supported by science and doubleblind placebo studies agreed.

    Cutting out gluten "works" simply because you an no longer eat that bowl of 150 grams of pasta, or eat 4 doughnuts at lunch, or have 10 chocolate biscuits with your tea - not surprising people dont feel bloated after throwing 900 calories into them in 3 minutes.


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    #41
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    It's so easy to start these things, MSG scare was started by a lad saying he had a sore head, protein combining in a meal was started by somebody in a pro-vegetarian book and was redacted 35 years ago, yet is still around today and so on.


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    #42
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    It's so easy to start these things, MSG scare was started by a lad saying he had a sore head, protein combining in a meal was started by somebody in a pro-vegetarian book and was redacted 35 years ago, yet is still around today and so on.

    Except that MSG didn't have double blind studies backing it up, gluten does have a few and who knows what the science over the next few years will bring.

    I look upon it like lactose intolerance, some people for whatever reason don't have the correct digestive bacteria to tolerate gluten. Doesn't mean gluten is bad for everyone, but it's really arrogant to presume people are making it up or scoffing at them.


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    #43
    ch750536
    Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    40 years is more than enough for the correct bacteria to be present in the gut for general digestive purposes, so you'd be looking at the wheat changing dynamically enough to cause medical issues, right?
    It really isn't, don't know where you read that.
    runawaybishop wrote: »
    How much more gluten does modern wheat have by the way, 10, 50, 100% more? Gluten is just a protein, its in a lot of things.
    Gluten in spelt wheat (ancient, triticum spelta) is soluble, gluten in modern wheat (triticum aestivum) is much less soluble. In 100ml of water 20g of wheat will result in 8 times as much gluten in the solution for spelt than modern. This passes safely through the system.
    runawaybishop wrote: »
    So what is this strange "modern" wheat?
    triticum aestivum
    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Gluten is just the new fad ....Turns out none of that was supported by science and doubleblind placebo studies agreed.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22825366
    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Cutting out gluten "works" simply because you an no longer eat that bowl of 150 grams of pasta, or eat 4 doughnuts at lunch, or have 10 chocolate biscuits with your tea - not surprising people dont feel bloated after throwing 900 calories into them in 3 minutes.
    Wow. So you have fake gluten intolerance if you are a 'fat ass'. Pretty poor attitude.


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    #44
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    Except that MSG didn't have double blind studies backing it up, gluten does have a few and who knows what the science over the next few years will bring.

    I look upon it like lactose intolerance, some people for whatever reason don't have the correct digestive bacteria to tolerate gluten. Doesn't mean gluten is bad for everyone, but it's really arrogant to presume people are making it up or scoffing at them.

    Can we just stop saying its definitely gluten, there are lots of different glutens. In CD its a very specific type of gluten in the majority of cases. You might as well say that its protein that may be causing these issues. Could it be an intolerance? perhaps - but why is this suddenly occurring in the last few years? Wheat hasn't really changed all that much recently.

    Its far more likely the issues stem from overeating ****e food, not gluten. I doubt anyone is "making this up" rather than simply a case of correlation does not imply causation


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    #45
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    Except that MSG didn't have double blind studies backing it up, gluten does have a few and who knows what the science over the next few years will bring.

    I look upon it like lactose intolerance, some people for whatever reason don't have the correct digestive bacteria to tolerate gluten. Doesn't mean gluten is bad for everyone, but it's really arrogant to presume people are making it up or scoffing at them.

    Oh i think it's real all right (well something they are ingesting is making them feel bad and it seems to be something got to do with gluten).
    My point was it doesn't matter if there are studies or not, with the general public it's "allll aboardddd"

    There is clinical evidence (patients with symptoms after consumption)
    There is laboratory and experimental evidence

    what I think is overblown is all the self-diagnosis of people on terrible diets, I practically know nobody that has an OK diet, maybe 5% of people I know do, but they are always sure what is making them feel bad. Now that doesn't mean it is not real or that you don't feel bad from gluten, or anybody. I think it's a good thing for those with CD and intolerance (known as GS), they get a much better product range.


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    #46
    ch750536
    Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    what I think is overblown is all the self-diagnosis of people on terrible diets, I practically know nobody that has an OK diet, maybe 5% of people I know do, but they are always sure what is making them feel bad.
    I'm a nutrition student. I'm on 2100 calories per day which is always really well monitored. I don't eat processed foods, rarely eat out. Mostly organic local produce. If I eat 4 slices of supermarket bread it makes me ill. I'm not celiac.


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    #47
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Split quotes :( I'll just number stuff as its easier.
    ch750536 wrote: »
    1 It really isn't, don't know where you read that.

    2 Gluten in spelt wheat (ancient, triticum spelta) is soluble, gluten in modern wheat (triticum aestivum) is much less soluble. In 100ml of water 20g of wheat will result in 8 times as much gluten in the solution for spelt than modern. This passes safely through the system.

    3 triticum aestivum

    4 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22825366

    5 Wow. So you have fake gluten intolerance if you are a 'fat ass'. Pretty poor attitude.

    1 - Gut bacteria are passed on from birth from the mother and environment. The gut flora to digest wheat and gluten would be present generally today. Even moderate changes would be made in a single generation.
    2 - Thats solubility in water, not relevant. How much more gluten is in "modern" wheat?
    3 - triticum aestivum is older than triticum aestivum actually, its around 9-10k years old and spelt is about 7-8k
    4 - i was referring to MSG there, not gluten. But anyway - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23648697 - No effects of gluten in patients with self-reported non-celiac gluten sensitivity after dietary reduction of fermentable, poorly absorbed, short-chain carbohydrates.
    5 - did I say that? A lot of ****ty foods are wheat and gluten based, cut them out and you feel better. Peopel also do not realise how calorie dense some fods, like biscuits, are.


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    #48
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    ch750536 wrote: »
    I'm a nutrition student. I'm on 2100 calories per day which is always really well monitored. I don't eat processed foods, rarely eat out. Mostly organic local produce. If I eat 4 slices of supermarket bread it makes me ill. I'm not celiac.

    Yeah, I imagine it is real. There are three things:

    Celiac disease (CD), Wheat allergy and Gluten sensitivity (GS). If you don't have CD you probably have one of the others (depending on what else is in the bread).


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    #49
    Akabusi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Akabusi


    Why are people getting annoyed by what other people are or are not eating? I get it that going gluten free is a bit of a fad thing for most people but why does it bother people so much if someone decides to go gluten free? As other posters have pointed out they will either likely improve their diet or if they just substitute in processed gluten free food, then be a lot lighter of pocket. IMO more people eating Gluten free means the more choice actual celiac's have and that will lead to better value for GF foods.

    My own story is that I have always suffered from heartburn and indigestion and was constantly chewing antacid tablets. I blamed sugary foods as Ketchup and rich foods were one of the worst things to set of heatburn. I lived with it and thought nothing of eating a few Rennie every day or slugging Gaviscon.

    A couple of years ago I needed to loose a couple of Kgs for football and decided to give up wheat - that Wheat Belly book gave
    me the idea to try it. It did help with the weight loss (I think mainly because I ate healthier) but had also had the extra benefit of curing my digestion problems. I have tried to stay of wheat since but every now and then I will eat it. I have found that when I eat it on occasion it has no bad effects but if I was to eat wheat for two consecutive days my heartburn would be back on the second day. When I'm eating out now i do not limit my choices but at home and work I will stay away from gluten so would only be consuming gluten maybe once a month now.

    I must be in that category that has some sort of sensitivity to Gluten although I have no problem with oat gluten as I eat porridge daily without any bad affects.

    This started as a fad diet for me and would have only last for a few weeks/months if it wasn't for the fact that I have never suffered from indigestion problems since.


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    #50
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Akabusi wrote: »
    It did help with the weight loss (I think mainly because I ate healthier) but had also had the extra benefit of curing my digestion problems. I have tried to stay of wheat since but every now and then I will eat it. I have found that when I eat it on occasion it has no bad effects but if I was to eat wheat for two consecutive days my heartburn would be back on the second day. When I'm eating out now i do not limit my choices but at home and work I will stay away from gluten so would only be consuming gluten maybe once a month now.

    Actually in your case it sounds a lot more like fructan intolerance, heartburn is a dead giveaway as it's caused by improper fermentation producing gas that puts upward pressure on the stomach, forcing acid into the oesophagus.

    Bottom like is you may tolerate spelt bread. Also be careful of excess garlic and onions (if you find you get a random attack- that might be a likely culprit)


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    #51
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Can we just stop saying its definitely gluten, there are lots of different glutens. In CD its a very specific type of gluten in the majority of cases. You might as well say that its protein that may be causing these issues. Could it be an intolerance? perhaps - but why is this suddenly occurring in the last few years? Wheat hasn't really changed all that much recently.

    Its far more likely the issues stem from overeating ****e food, not gluten. I doubt anyone is "making this up" rather than simply a case of correlation does not imply causation

    It's not just happening in the last few years though. Before people would just suffer though whatever symptoms they got and maybe took some medication to control the symptoms. It's just now some people have tried giving up gluten and it's improved their life (though I will say more often than not it's fructans or other fodmaps they were reacting to - whatever works right?). I don't know why people have such an issue with that.


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    #52
    nibz2015
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭nibz2015


    what I think is overblown is all the self-diagnosis of people on terrible diets, I practically know nobody that has an OK diet, maybe 5% of people I know do, but they are always sure what is making them feel bad. Now that doesn't mean it is not real or that you don't feel bad from gluten, or anybody. I think it's a good thing for those with CD and intolerance (known as GS), they get a much better product range.[/quote]



    It's all well & good to say that us who have been diagnosed with coeliac disease will have a better product range but it is very difficult when we go out to eat in restaurants and you have to explain that you are a coeliac and can't just say 'I'm gluten free' because the waiter or waitress just rolls her eyes and ends up bringing you food that will make you sick because people who aren't CD diagnosed order a GF dish & some bread comes on top of it and the person just shrugs it off takes it off & continues to eat the meal because they aren't concerned about cross contamination or they'll eat it because it looks or smells nice or something and then the waiter thinks 'oh some people are just really picky eaters' or 'must just be another fad diet'


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    #53
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,411 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Akabusi wrote: »
    Why are people getting annoyed by what other people are or are not eating?
    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    It's just now some people have tried giving up gluten and it's improved their life (though I will say more often than not it's fructans or other fodmaps they were reacting to - whatever works right?). I don't know why people have such an issue with that.

    Because gluten and wheat are being disproportionately demonised and people who don't know any better are cutting an entire food group out of their diet for no real reason.

    And I'm calling it now: yeast will be the next trendy food intolerance.

    As someone said upthread, it's almost impossible to unscare people once these ideas take hold but I did find this very interesting from a common sense point of view:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-big-bad-gluten.html?_r=0


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    #54
    PucaMama
    Registered Users Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    i have IBS (since nothing else can be found) and im gluten free and lactose free. ive tried the lactose free approach before on its own with small improvement, but nothing on the improvement of cutting out gluten as much as possible. i know i can have limited amounts of each. very limited. but after even a couple of days without gluten the change was obvious. im no longer spending half the day sick, im no longer bloated and im no longer in pain.


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    #55
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    PucaMama wrote: »
    i have IBS (since nothing else can be found) and im gluten free and lactose free. ive tried the lactose free approach before on its own with small improvement, but nothing on the improvement of cutting out gluten as much as possible. i know i can have limited amounts of each. very limited. but after even a couple of days without gluten the change was obvious. im no longer spending half the day sick, im no longer bloated and im no longer in pain.

    Did you cut out food with gluten in them, or switch to gluten-free alternatives?

    Intersstign study here - No Effects of Gluten in Patients With Self-Reported Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity After Dietary Reduction of Fermentable, Poorly Absorbed, Short-Chain Carbohydrates

    basically says its the fodmaps, not gluten.


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    #56
    PucaMama
    Registered Users Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Did you cut out food with gluten in them, or switch to gluten-free alternatives?

    Intersstign study here - No Effects of Gluten in Patients With Self-Reported Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity After Dietary Reduction of Fermentable, Poorly Absorbed, Short-Chain Carbohydrates

    basically says its the fodmaps, not gluten.

    think ill pay more attention to what my body tells me than a paper written by people ill never meet. ive found my fix and i like it. i was sick for over a month constantly before that when previously id have 1 or 2 flare ups a month


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    #57
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    PucaMama wrote: »
    think ill pay more attention to what my body tells me than a paper written by people ill never meet. ive found my fix and i like it. i was sick for over a month constantly before that when previously id have 1 or 2 flare ups a month

    Sure, do whatever you want. Lack of answer is an answer in itself anyway.


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    #58
    Akabusi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Akabusi


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    Actually in your case it sounds a lot more like fructan intolerance, heartburn is a dead giveaway as it's caused by improper fermentation producing gas that puts upward pressure on the stomach, forcing acid into the oesophagus.

    Bottom like is you may tolerate spelt bread. Also be careful of excess garlic and onions (if you find you get a random attack- that might be a likely culprit)

    I'll try spelt bread for a few days and report back how i get on.


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    #59
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    Because gluten and wheat are being disproportionately demonised and people who don't know any better are cutting an entire food group out of their diet for no real reason.

    And I'm calling it now: yeast will be the next trendy food intolerance.

    As someone said upthread, it's almost impossible to unscare people once these ideas take hold but I did find this very interesting from a common sense point of view:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-big-bad-gluten.html?_r=0

    You are seriously out of touch with food trends if you think yeast is the next intolerance, that was the big thing back in the 1990's. My mom used to buy yeast-free cookbooks.


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    #60
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,411 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    You are seriously out of touch with food trends if you think yeast is the next intolerance, that was the big thing back in the 1990's. My mom used to buy yeast-free cookbooks.

    Well seeing as I was 8 in 1990 you can probably forgive me for not being quite au fait with the demonised food du jour.

    I stand by it being the next trendy thing to be "allergic" to, though.


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