Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

end of the road · 19-12-2014 4:31pm

jungleman wrote: »

I can safely say I'm not happy with the price of Dublin Bus, it hasn't really come in line with improvements in recent years. Since I have started using DB regularly, the price of a student 5 day rambler ticket (which I now get on my leap card) has increased from €15.00 to €21.50. In the space of what, 5 years, that is a ridiculous increase. That's not counting the increases in non-student rambler tickets, increases in cash fares throughout the years.

And for what? WiFi on buses? Electronic signs at some of the stops? As a subsidised company, the fare increases are just too much. Especially for students, there is feck all value there. It's not just DB though, it's Irish public transport in general. The fare on the 109 Bus Eireann route (which I use) is astronomical. Because it's such a busy route, the fare is jacked up to subsidise other routes.

government subsidy keeps getting cut. someone has to pay. thats the reality. i agree prices should come down a bit but where in the world do prices come down for transport? they seem to always go up.

jungleman wrote: »

The price of Irish Rail is ever increasing, and for what? Less carriages, old and slow trains?

what old trains. the oldist trains on the network are 20 years old and are based down in cork operating local services. everything else is between 8 and 14 years old. thats all pittence for a train.

jungleman wrote: »

Pricing is a huge issue which needs to be looked at regarding Irish public transport as a whole. These companies can't keep increasing prices every 12 months, eventually something has to give. Dublin is earmarked for very near future development as being cyclist and pedestrian friendly - this means larger footpaths and the introduction of cycle lanes throughout the city over the next few years. So if public transport bodies don't get their act together very soon and start introducing fair prices, they'll find their customer base will just choose to avail of free alternatives.

what else are they going to do? ourselves and the UK are always putting up prices for transport. people need to realize if we want public transport it has to be payed for. that will mean the government and the passenger paying as much of these services aren't proffitable on their own, but are socially necessary to get people to and from work in turn helping the economy.

paulosam · 19-12-2014 4:53pm

mmmcake wrote: »

This type of statement never ceases to amaze, you no doubt have plenty of money for smokes and alcohol.

Don't know if your above comment was actually serious, but I'd definitely suggest listening to less Joe Duffy and joining us in the real world if it was!Also, not that it's any of your business, but I don't have plenty of money for anything to be honest. I don't smoke and I drink 2 or 3 times a year.

My hours can change every week, so I can't guarantee that I'd have (a not insignificant to me) 30 quid in my account at whatever time the auto top up is triggered, which would then cost me more money/hassle for being overdrawn etc. If the amount was 15 I'd be far more likely to use auto top up.

bk · 19-12-2014 11:30pm

mmmcake wrote: »

This type of statement never ceases to amaze, you no doubt have plenty of money for smokes and alcohol.

This is one of the most horrible and offensive posts I've ever read! You need a serious reality check :mad:

€40 is an awful lot of money for a lot of people who are unemployed or earning minimum wage.

My girlfriend is one of these people. She earns the minimum wage while working an incredibly difficult job in a bar till 4am, 5 nights a week. She doesn't have a €500 phone or drink/smoke, most of the money she earns goes to just getting by and paying for her studies, which she does from 9am every morning (yes after getting home at 4am)!

And she never complains, a true wonder woman.

She has a Leap card, but can only afford to put €10 on it at a time. So she is constantly going into shops to top up, but most people aren't willing to do that.

Of course that would be completely unnecessary if the ticket machines supported contactless debit cards like in London.

And non of this is unusual, there is a massive numbers of foreign students here living 5 or 6 people in a two bed apartment and just scraping by.

I'm as mad as hell after just reading your ridiculous post.

bk · 19-12-2014 11:44pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Personally ,I believe this Leapcard Soft-Launch mallarkey has outlived it's usefulness,and it's time to get real about saving people from themselves...Introduce a Flat CASH FARE of €3.00Adult / €2.00Child and let it sort itself out.

This, big time. The introduction of Leap has been a major failure. The approach they took of gradually widening the difference between cash and Leap is a massive failure. I guess they thought it would gradually move people over to Leap. Instead it has had the opposite effect, with people instead getting gradually used to the higher and higher cash fares. Psychology it just doesn't seem like that big of a change when the cash price increases by 10 to 20c every year. You just gradually get use to the higher price and don't bother to switch to Leap.

In fact I'd say it should become a case study for how to not introduce a new ticketing system.

Instead from day one, they should have introduced Leap at a €2.00 flat fare and made cash a €4 flat fare. Such a big difference from day one would have shocked most people into quickly switching to Leap.

However having said that, the DB ticket machines probably wouldn't have been able to handle such a massive swap over to Leap.

Now what I would do, is first introduce new ticket machines as fast as possible. Machines which can quickly process Leap transactions and support contactless debit cards and online top-ups on the bus. Once that is done, then introduce a €2/€4 flat fare.

kildarecommuter · 19-12-2014 11:49pm

Travel regular enough using Dublin Bus find service good and never had any problems with drivers, agree on the fare structure being awkward but have a feeling this may be down to NTA.

bk · 20-12-2014 12:44am

kildarecommuter wrote: »

Travel regular enough using Dublin Bus find service good and never had any problems with drivers, agree on the fare structure being awkward but have a feeling this may be down to NTA.

The Dublin Bus stage fare structure has been in place for decades before the NTA was created!

AlekSmart · 20-12-2014 2:15am

bk wrote: »

In fact I'd say it should become a case study for how to not introduce a new ticketing system.

Instead from day one, they should have introduced Leap at a €2.00 flat fare and made cash a €4 flat fare. Such a big difference from day one would have shocked most people into quickly switching to Leap.

However having said that, the DB ticket machines probably wouldn't have been able to handle such a massive swap over to Leap.

Now what I would do, is first introduce new ticket machines as fast as possible. Machines which can quickly process Leap transactions and support contactless debit cards and online top-ups on the bus. Once that is done, then introduce a €2/€4 flat fare.

With a single Flat Fare for both modes,the Wayfarer TGX would have no problems at all,particularly if the switchover was as rapid and definite as bk suggests.

Having 16 seperate fares divided between the 2 constantly switching modes,was never going to work well.

I'd suggest you'll travel far and wide in the EU before finding a City of comparable size charging by the Fare-Stage mode,although it did serve the Bianconi cars well be all accounts ?

dfx- · 20-12-2014 8:24am

To the OP question, I'm more than happy with the price (though I'd be a heavy user and easily reach the cap).

The service on the vast majority of routes is far better than most people think in my opinion. Last night my commute involved the 70, 270, 239, 76, 56A and 79. It all worked together seamlessly off-peak, even with infrequent or orbital routes. Most city centre routes are also fine. The 130 is excellent, 40D, 27B, 31s, 25s.

Where the problem lies in the service is the butchered arterial cross-city routes where you would think more effort is worth it to DB. The service level on the 4, 16, 13, 39A, 15 and 145 is terrible. To be waiting the scheduled 20-30 minutes for any of these routes (or 60 minutes for the 4) is ridiculous from a customer perspective, before you add reliability issues around how long the routes are.

Then there's the 27 and 40 whose scheduled frequency is fine at peak, but have all sorts of 40C and especially 27C caveats. The one successful cross city route is possibly the 14, but it is much shorter compared to the major corridor routes.

It's a very odd situation to have it that the high volume, dependable-custom routes provide a worse experience than those on lower demand, infrequent or orbital routes. Remind me which the NTA is focusing on again...

Calina · 20-12-2014 10:20am

mmmcake wrote: »

This type of statement never ceases to amaze, you no doubt have plenty of money for smokes and alcohol.

I see a bunch of people have already pulled you up for the ignorance of this statement but I'd like to reiterate: people who generalise like this are out of touch with the real world. Some people have to manage their money day to day and it's not for cigarettes and alcohol either.

bk wrote: »

This, big time. The introduction of Leap has been a major failure.

The issue I have with Leap is not really that it's taken a long time to introduce but that it didn't solve the problems I see with Dublin Bus. Put simply, in a lot of cases, the unlimited journey passes weren't really attractive for enough people, even regular commuters.

bk wrote: »

The approach they took of gradually widening the difference between cash and Leap is a massive failure.

I would agree that this was a bad idea.

bk wrote: »

I guess they thought it would gradually move people over to Leap.

My issue is that they should not have been looking to move most people over to Leap, but to move most people over to some sort of weekly or monthly passes. IMO, of course.

On a general note, however, it's interesting to see that there are several problems in Dublin and however you slice up looking at little details, like how Leap works, it doesn't deal with the problems. Dublin is a low density city which doesn't have a flat fare on its bus route. The different modes of traffic are badly integrated to be frank and if you need a mode or vehicle change mid journey, your journey time is generally not reliable.

The reason for that is the shape of Dublin on the ground. The areas which need to be served by urban transport are comparatively large. This means that things like metros and tram systems are always going to cost more than they do in other places. Collectively, the city doesn't want to deal with this. You can see it in the argument over the BRT from Swords - it is a crazy idea to build that in the interim because as designed it isn't even adequate for the needs.

Arguments that "we subsidise Dublin Bus and it's still expensive and lousy" miss the fact that we also don't want to live in 5 story high apartment blocks and even where we do plan them, we don't plan them coherently with public transport in mind, that really, if you wanted a reasonably decent and regular tram or metro system from UCD to the city centre, it really is only worth it if you level most of the houses in Dublin 4 and replace them with apartment blocks.

There's a choice to be made here and I don't see Dubs making it in favour of public transport. You only have to look at the property demand to know that the decisions are made in favour of low density housing. And the cost of that is an expensive and comparatively slow public transport system.

AlekSmart · 20-12-2014 1:18pm

dfx- wrote: »

To the OP question, I'm more than happy with the price (though I'd be a heavy user and easily reach the cap).

The service on the vast majority of routes is far better than most people think in my opinion. Last night my commute involved the 70, 270, 239, 76, 56A and 79. It all worked together seamlessly off-peak, even with infrequent or orbital routes. Most city centre routes are also fine. The 130 is excellent, 40D, 27B, 31s, 25s.

Where the problem lies in the service is the butchered arterial cross-city routes where you would think more effort is worth it to DB. The service level on the 4, 16, 13, 39A, 15 and 145 is terrible. To be waiting the scheduled 20-30 minutes for any of these routes (or 60 minutes for the 4) is ridiculous from a customer perspective, before you add reliability issues around how long the routes are.

Then there's the 27 and 40 whose scheduled frequency is fine at peak, but have all sorts of 40C and especially 27C caveats. The one successful cross city route is possibly the 14, but it is much shorter compared to the major corridor routes.

It's a very odd situation to have it that the high volume, dependable-custom routes provide a worse experience than those on lower demand, infrequent or orbital routes. Remind me which the NTA is focusing on again...

Some excellent contributions to this thread for sure !

When the chaff-filter is used,the actual important issues stand-out.

These are,in the main infrastructural and planning related,both area's where Dublin's development was well and truly hi-jacked by a,by now,well known and appreciated cabal of dangerously incompetent middle ranking administrators spread through Central and Local Administration.

The beginning of this rot appears to have been in the mid 1950's when the first attempts at high-density urban living were revealed..a lá Ballymun.

It's been dealt with on so many fora,but for me the Ballymun Public Transport experience can be summed up in one class of Bus....The Short-Wheelbase C,which was fully expected to provide any and all of those new-living folks Public Transport requirements for ever and a day.....

In reality,Irish Public Administration has never really shrugged off that principle,of the lowest possible dominator being the most favoured one administratively......even the much praised Luas,had a seriously blonde introduction in which the RPA's absolute insistance on 30 mtr tramset's threatened to implode the Red-Line,until the RPA were dragged,kicking & screaming into the 10mtr extension (Which they INSISTED would not be possible)

The routes mentioned in dfx's post are the,by now,infamous,products of the well-meaning "Network Direct" programme,which of itself remains a good basis for the City's Bus Service.

However,as can be seen daily,it CANNOT work if attempted on top of a Civic unwillingness to actively recognize the requirements.

This is NOT London...DCC are NOT Tfl....and we need to be wary of attempting TfL style solutions to problems without any guarantee of TfL style centralized resources to provide the muscle.

dfx's final paragraph just about sums it all up really.....

AlekSmart · 20-12-2014 1:25pm

Calina wrote: »

.
My issue is that they should not have been looking to move most people over to Leap, but to move most people over to some sort of weekly or monthly passes. IMO, of course.

On a general note, however, it's interesting to see that there are several problems in Dublin and however you slice up looking at little details, like how Leap works, it doesn't deal with the problems. Dublin is a low density city which doesn't have a flat fare on its bus route. The different modes of traffic are badly integrated to be frank and if you need a mode or vehicle change mid journey, your journey time is generally not reliable.

Arguments that "we subsidise Dublin Bus and it's still expensive and lousy" miss the fact that we also don't want to live in 5 story high apartment blocks and even where we do plan them, we don't plan them coherently with public transport in mind, that really, if you wanted a reasonably decent and regular tram or metro system from UCD to the city centre, it really is only worth it if you level most of the houses in Dublin 4 and replace them with apartment blocks.

There's a choice to be made here and I don't see Dubs making it in favour of public transport. You only have to look at the property demand to know that the decisions are made in favour of low density housing. And the cost of that is an expensive and comparatively slow public transport system.

Just about sum's it all up really...excellent concise post....essentially we,as a society,remain ambivalent to beneficial change,particularly mid-to long term change.

The Leapcard,in microcosm,shows that,as large numbers of people grumble and snarl about the price of the Busfare,whilst steadfastly ignoring a FREE means of securing a 20% cheaper mode.....

We are an odd culture,in a way,that often strives to maximize the perceived injustice,yet ignores the advances....(€2.15 fare reduced to €2.05 )

I'm afraid,it's a Top down situation,cos we are definitely not wired to effect the changes from the Bottom up !!

cdebru · 20-12-2014 1:30pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

[/B]

Some excellent contributions to this thread for sure !

When the chaff-filter is used,the actual important issues stand-out.

These are,in the main infrastructural and planning related,both area's where Dublin's development was well and truly hi-jacked by a,by now,well known and appreciated cabal of dangerously incompetent middle ranking administrators spread through Central and Local Administration.

The beginning of this rot appears to have been in the mid 1950's when the first attempts at high-density urban living were revealed..a lá Ballymun.

It's been dealt with on so many fora,but for me the Ballymun Public Transport experience can be summed up in one class of Bus....The Short-Wheelbase C,which was fully expected to provide any and all of those new-living folks Public Transport requirements for ever and a day.....

In reality,Irish Public Administration has never really shrugged off that principle,of the lowest possible dominator being the most favoured one administratively......even the much praised Luas,had a seriously blonde introduction in which the RPA's absolute insistance on 30 mtr tramset's threatened to implode the Red-Line,until the RPA were dragged,kicking & screaming into the 10mtr extension (Which they INSISTED would not be possible)

The routes mentioned in dfx's post are the,by now,infamous,products of the well-meaning "Network Direct" programme,which of itself remains a good basis for the City's Bus Service.

However,as can be seen daily,it CANNOT work if attempted on top of a Civic unwillingness to actively recognize the requirements.

This is NOT London...DCC are NOT Tfl....and we need to be wary of attempting TfL style solutions to problems without any guarantee of TfL style centralized resources to provide the muscle.

dfx's final paragraph just about sums it all up really.....

Network direct is OK but minus the cross city routes, they are too long, unreliable, difficult to regulate without depriving huge swathes of a bus service. and have made the amalgamated routes less useful not more. With the resources currently in the cross city routes they can provide good reliable separate routes but the sum of the parts doesn't make a better cross city route.

AlekSmart · 20-12-2014 1:38pm

cdebru wrote: »

Network direct is OK but minus the cross city routes, they are too long, unreliable, difficult to regulate without depriving huge swathes of a bus service. and have made the amalgamated routes less useful not more. With the resources currently in the cross city routes they can provide good reliable separate routes but the sum of the parts doesn't make a better cross city route.

That's my point....without the guarantee of the non-Dublin Bus specific elements the potential benefits cannot be achieved......not even close

dfx- · 20-12-2014 3:18pm

The artery routes are the ones that matter the most, they should be the ones given most care and attention. They are the heart of the network and they are the regular customers.

The 1640 ex-Grange Castle 13 can take 2 hrs 20 minutes to get to the airport and return straight back. That route is far too long. You can get to Galway and Belfast in that time. The 51B and 51C was an excellent, faultless service at every 20 minutes.

steddyeddy · 20-12-2014 3:41pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

[/B]

Some excellent contributions to this thread for sure !

When the chaff-filter is used,the actual important issues stand-out.

These are,in the main infrastructural and planning related,both area's where Dublin's development was well and truly hi-jacked by a,by now,well known and appreciated cabal of dangerously incompetent middle ranking administrators spread through Central and Local Administration.

The beginning of this rot appears to have been in the mid 1950's when the first attempts at high-density urban living were revealed..a lá Ballymun.

It's been dealt with on so many fora,but for me the Ballymun Public Transport experience can be summed up in one class of Bus....The Short-Wheelbase C,which was fully expected to provide any and all of those new-living folks Public Transport requirements for ever and a day.....

In reality,Irish Public Administration has never really shrugged off that principle,of the lowest possible dominator being the most favoured one administratively......even the much praised Luas,had a seriously blonde introduction in which the RPA's absolute insistance on 30 mtr tramset's threatened to implode the Red-Line,until the RPA were dragged,kicking & screaming into the 10mtr extension (Which they INSISTED would not be possible)

The routes mentioned in dfx's post are the,by now,infamous,products of the well-meaning "Network Direct" programme,which of itself remains a good basis for the City's Bus Service.

However,as can be seen daily,it CANNOT work if attempted on top of a Civic unwillingness to actively recognize the requirements.

This is NOT London...DCC are NOT Tfl....and we need to be wary of attempting TfL style solutions to problems without any guarantee of TfL style centralized resources to provide the muscle.

dfx's final paragraph just about sums it all up really.....

Says the guy who thanked a post accusing another poster of spending all income on cigarettes and booze.

end of the road · 20-12-2014 4:33pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Says the guy who thanked a post accusing another poster of spending all income on cigarettes and booze.

his post still stands and is valid though

cdebru · 20-12-2014 6:04pm

dfx- wrote: »

The artery routes are the ones that matter the most, they should be the ones given most care and attention. They are the heart of the network and they are the regular customers.

The 1640 ex-Grange Castle 13 can take 2 hrs 20 minutes to get to the airport and return straight back. That route is far too long. You can get to Galway and Belfast in that time. The 51B and 51C was an excellent, faultless service at every 20 minutes.

Yes and joining arterial routes just doesn't work when you don't have the bus priority measures to ensure a regular fast journey time, all you end up with is buses stuck arriving late, and because of limits on drivers hours you are limited to what if anything you can do with bus when it eventually arrives, which why people are seeing untimetabled C versions, and why estates are left with no service for hours etc 27 arrives late at clarehall, to try and get it back and ensure driver is not over his hours they go straight down the malahide road so no service through coolock, then the same thing happens over in tallaght and the bus goes straight up the N81 at peak times this can be happening to one bus after another so no services in the estates the 27 is supposed to serve and the same is happening on other cross city routes.

dublinstevie · 20-12-2014 7:31pm

dfx- wrote: »

The artery routes are the ones that matter the most, they should be the ones given most care and attention. They are the heart of the network and they are the regular customers.

The 1640 ex-Grange Castle 13 can take 2 hrs 20 minutes to get to the airport and return straight back. That route is far too long. You can get to Galway and Belfast in that time. The 51B and 51C was an excellent, faultless service at every 20 minutes.

The 13 doesnt go to the airport

cdebru · 20-12-2014 9:53pm

dublinstevie wrote: »

The 13 doesnt go to the airport

Theres no 16:40 either so putting on my dearstalker hat and doing my best sherlock Holmes impression he meant the 16 from Grange road at 16:40 to the airport. Elementary old boy.

David086 · 21-12-2014 2:03am

Have to agre with regards to the 13 from Grange Castle to town. An extremely poor planned route imo. During rush hour it can take 90 mins from town to Clondalkin. Increase the frequency of the 69 or return the 51s!

dfx- · 21-12-2014 3:22am

dublinstevie wrote: »

The 13 doesnt go to the airport

The terminus is about 50m from the main runway. It may not serve the airport, but is the term 'by the airport' ok instead...

cdebru wrote: »

Theres no 16:40 either so putting on my dearstalker hat and doing my best sherlock Holmes impression he meant the 16 from Grange road at 16:40 to the airport. Elementary old boy.

Apologies Mr. Holmes, I meant the 1648 ex-Grange Castle. Though you could indeed change it to the 16 and the same applies.

AlekSmart · 21-12-2014 3:24am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Says the guy who thanked a post accusing another poster of spending all income on cigarettes and booze.

You can't say I'm not ecumenically minded

paulosam · 21-12-2014 6:00am

David086 wrote: »

Have to agre with regards to the 13 from Grange Castle to town. An extremely poor planned route imo. During rush hour it can take 90 mins from town to Clondalkin. Increase the frequency of the 69 or return the 51s!

25 mins stuck crawling along from Bluebell (where the bus lane from the Naas Road worthlessly merges into a single lane) down the Tyrconnell Road at peak time alone, then getting stuck again at Old Kilmainham. Sickening paying so much for such a badly planned (if planned at all) service.

cdebru · 21-12-2014 1:17pm

paulosam wrote: »

25 mins stuck crawling along from Bluebell (where the bus lane from the Naas Road worthlessly merges into a single lane) down the Tyrconnell Road at peak time alone, then getting stuck again at Old Kilmainham. Sickening paying so much for such a badly planned (if planned at all) service.

Do you have an alternative route that avoids all this traffic, but can still serve the population of the areas currently served by the route ?

Calina · 21-12-2014 1:24pm

paulosam wrote: »

25 mins stuck crawling along from Bluebell (where the bus lane from the Naas Road worthlessly merges into a single lane) down the Tyrconnell Road at peak time alone, then getting stuck again at Old Kilmainham. Sickening paying so much for such a badly planned (if planned at all) service.

The issue is not the bus route, it is the design of Dublin urban areas. Dublin Bus are hamstrung by this.

AlekSmart · 21-12-2014 2:00pm

paulosam wrote: »

25 mins stuck crawling along from Bluebell (where the bus lane from the Naas Road worthlessly merges into a single lane) down the Tyrconnell Road at peak time alone, then getting stuck again at Old Kilmainham. Sickening paying so much for such a badly planned (if planned at all) service.

A bit of oul "Shared Running" between Luas/Bus would work wonders here.....bit to blatently forren for our administrators though.....:rolleyes:

cdebru · 21-12-2014 11:56pm

Calina wrote: »

The issue is not the bus route, it is the design of Dublin urban areas. Dublin Bus are hamstrung by this.

Why dont they buy helicopters instead of expensive buses that are stuck behind private cars ?

schemingbohemia · 22-12-2014 3:06pm

dfx- wrote: »

Where the problem lies in the service is the butchered arterial cross-city routes where you would think more effort is worth it to DB. The service level on the 4, 16, 13, 39A, 15 and 145 is terrible. To be waiting the scheduled 20-30 minutes for any of these routes (or 60 minutes for the 4) is ridiculous from a customer perspective, before you add reliability issues around how long the routes are.

Where are you getting the 60 minutes for the 4 from? Aren't they every 15 minutes?

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/4/

LXFlyer · 22-12-2014 3:24pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Where are you getting the 60 minutes for the 4 from? Aren't they every 15 minutes?

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/4/

Take a look at the Sunday service.

dfx- · 22-12-2014 3:47pm

Calina wrote: »

The issue is not the bus route, it is the design of Dublin urban areas. Dublin Bus are hamstrung by this.

The two routes are ok (old 13s and 51B/C). But when you add that blockage to Kilmainham and Westmoreland St and Dorset St and the demand for DCU all to the same route? The issue is putting it all in one route, rather than two. Especially if you don't have sufficient resources to operate that amalgamated route.

I was on a 46A last night, a route that should suffer the same problem of pinch points and length (Phibsboro, Westmoreland St., UCD). Usually GTs on Sundays too and huge luggage loads on Sunday nights. But because it's Christmas, the VTs are out and the extra capacity solved it all. A three quarters full VT.

Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

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