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SAS Operating in Ireland (Republic of)

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    #62
    Locust
    Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭Locust


    (I'm guessing your number is senior to me anyways!) I'd agree that the North/border areas have changed dramatically - from the mid nineties on there was a lot of construction and developments etc... areas are probably more travelled and sign posted now than they used to be. I can understand people get lost, but for the SAS to get lost is more of a cop out. I remember hearing of a farmer finding soldiers when all his cows would congregate around a hedge or whatever. They would just stand up and say 'British Army' and move off as they'd been compromised!


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    #63
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    In a similar scenario now I assume there would be no excuse of getting lost, would they have some sort of global positioning gadgetry?


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    #64
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    In a similar scenario now I assume there would be no excuse of getting lost, would they have some sort of global positioning gadgetry?

    If the average boy scout on the hills has one, I expect the sas would too.


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    #65
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    The corporals killings is the name commonly given to the deaths of corporals David Robert Howes (23) and Derek Tony Wood (24),[1] two British Army soldiers of the Royal Corps of Signals killed on 19 March 1988 in Belfast, Northern Ireland. The non-uniformed soldiers were killed by the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA), after they drove into the funeral procession of an IRA volunteer.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporals_killings

    If you take these two guys, reasticially they were probably SAS but we will not be told that. So if british army were arrested in the Republic, they would not admit to being SAS. We may believe they are SAS but in relaity would say British Army etc.

    SAS were in Gribraltar and shot dead IRA members, never told they were SAS http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/7/newsid_2516000/2516155.stm

    Only thing that showed they were military apparently was they were wearing military style boots and had military weapons.

    Very hard to prove someone is in SAS, even british MOD does not admit they are SAS in alot of cases


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    #66
    conorby
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭conorby


    Gibraltar IRA were without doubt going to kill, so when they got shot dead people were up in arms. You live by the sword, you die by it


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    #67
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    Gibraltar IRA were without doubt going to kill, so when they got shot dead people were up in arms. You live by the sword, you die by it

    it was the woman getting shot that caused the fuss, not the guys

    An unarmed woman being shot back then was very shocking for people. People getting shot in Ireland now seems to happen every few weeks

    In any case just making point that people assume it was SAS, it was not official


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    #68
    conorby
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭conorby


    Yeah fair enough, but this was the same woman Farrell I think who served time for the Brighton bombing and they were believed to have planted a bomb in a tourist area which would have caused carnage. Lets just say they weren't on holidays.


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    #69
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    yes but they were shot dead, there was an inquiry in who did it etc. A local said he knew they were army as they were wearing boots. He said looking at their boots he knew they were SAS. SAS are only allowed laced boots, they are not allowed boots with zips up the side or down the middle which the US like

    The reason for this(I have been told) is that boots are considered a weapon by SAS, give someone a kick of a boot in the face can be very dangerous.

    They were operating 'undercover'

    other example would be
    The covert war in Yemen – 1962-70
    http://markcurtis.wordpress.com/2007/02/13/the-covert-war-in-yemen-1962-70/

    SAS operate covert, I dont think if they were arrested by local Gardai in Dingle etc that they would say SAS. More likely British tourists on holidays etc, at a push maybe like Andy McNabb and bravo two zero when captured said they were medics

    How do people know SAS were arrested ? I doubt this would be admitted by british authorities


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    #70
    Leadership
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Leadership


    Interesting reading this thread that many people label many of the incursions into the Republic as "SAS" when most of them were not SAS. Most of them would have been from the unit 14 Intelligence Company who were volunteers from regular army units. These units would have performed the surveillance and agent handling/courier tasks which a lot would have required them to cross the border.

    Much of the work of this unit is even more secret than the SAS activities but Irish serving in the BA were targeted and some were set up to work and live in communities on both sides of the border. These would have mostly been unarmed but many would have a browning tucked away somewhere. I know of barmen, bus drivers and even a tramp.


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    #71
    foxshooter243
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭foxshooter243


    I lived 400 yards from the Donegal/ Derry border during the troubles and it was pretty common to see garda cars alongside unmarked RUC cars having chin wags on the southern side of the border at night..walked up on them several times..
    Out shooting with a friend one sunday morning I jumped over a ditch and nearly landed on four soldiers with their faces blacked out and them huddled in a ditch well into the southern side of the border..after a pretty tense few seconds one of them asked "which way is the border mate" ..i pointed it out and off they went .. plenty of incidents like this have been mentioned by other locals.


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    #72
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    conorby wrote: »
    Gibraltar IRA were without doubt going to kill, so when they got shot dead people were up in arms. You live by the sword, you die by it

    sorry thats not the case. if the british claims to govern 'northern' ireland, whats it doing going around executing its citizens for? why would the sas be given such discretionary powers to be judge, jury and executioner. is that the kind of government you want in your country?
    these were unarmed civilians.
    alot of people claim that these were the tactics of the ira, which is true, but this didnt give the british army any right to carry out the murders. what it did in fact was legitimise the IRAs campaign and the british occupation which these murders demonstrated that it was so.


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    #73
    BigDuffman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭BigDuffman


    paky wrote: »
    sorry thats not the case. if the british claims to govern 'northern' ireland, whats it doing going around executing its citizens for? why would the sas be given such discretionary powers to be judge, jury and executioner. is that the kind of government you want in your country?
    these were unarmed civilians.
    alot of people claim that these were the tactics of the ira, which is true, but this didnt give the british army any right to carry out the murders. what it did in fact was legitimise the IRAs campaign and the british occupation which these murders demonstrated that it was so.

    Are you debating the sovereignty or geography?

    They were dark days indeed. Murder carried out on both sides. Murder of innocent civilians through indiscriminate bombings. The murder of civilians with alleged links to paramilitaries.

    In a case of black or white morality irregardless of colour creed or condition, I'd personally I find it a lot less objectionable that dissidents be killed.

    What gets me is the outrage from armchair republicans regarding the killing of provo's and the absolute lack of acknowledgement in relation to the indiscriminate killing of uninvolved innocents.

    A lesser of two evils should not be ignored irregardless of your political stance.


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    #74
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporals_killings

    If you take these two guys, reasticially they were probably SAS but we will not be told that. So if british army were arrested in the Republic, they would not admit to being SAS. We may believe they are SAS but in relaity would say British Army etc.

    the two corporals were not SAS, neither were they 14 int or any other of the 'hairys', they were members of the Royal Signals unit that supported HQNI - the reason they look like something they weren't was because they were in plain clothes and driving a unmarked car. being in plain clothes and driving an unmarked car was actually very common during OP BANNER for those soldiers who job was the support of the Army (technicians, loggies, signallers etc..) because their job required them to visit lots of locations, and there was never the manpower (or threat) to enable them/require them to travel with a large escort in a 'fully toolled -up' manner.

    the actual circumstances of their deaths are as tragic as they were foreseeable - one of the Cpls had just arrived in Belfast and was being shown around by the other so he could familiarise himself with the areas he would have to drive through, and how to drive through these areas, in order to do his job. the only unknown (and unknowable) is whether the Cpl doing the showing around got lost/diverted and was 'funnelled' into a location he knew about but didn't want to go to, or whether he was 'big-timing' and deliberately going to place/situation he wasn't trained for.

    the incident has long been a case study in how not to operate - there was no 'this is where we're going, this is the route, this is what time we'll be back and this is what will happen if it goes wrong' plan agreed with their unit, 39 Bde or the RUC, they weren't part of the communications net so they couldn't effectively cry for help or be warned off by other assets, and neither of the soldiers had been trained in undercover operations (they had been given a 'this is a Browning 9mm pistol, here's 20 rounds, fire them at that target and go about your business for a year' range package before starting the tour, but that was it).

    things changed pretty rapidly afterwards - any soldier in NI who might at any stage need to travel in plain clothes had to do a range, navigation, counter-surveilance and driving package before they went and to do refresher days during their tour. but their CO should still have been fcuking shot.


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    #75
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    BigDuffman wrote: »
    Are you debating the sovereignty or geography?

    They were dark days indeed. Murder carried out on both sides. Murder of innocent civilians through indiscriminate bombings. The murder of civilians with alleged links to paramilitaries.

    In a case of black or white morality irregardless of colour creed or condition, I'd personally I find it a lot less objectionable that dissidents be killed.

    What gets me is the outrage from armchair republicans regarding the killing of provo's and the absolute lack of acknowledgement in relation to the indiscriminate killing of uninvolved innocents.

    A lesser of two evils should not be ignored irregardless of your political stance.
    Thats the thing, they said the IRA where criminals. Is it acceptable to send the SAS out to kill unarmed criminals overseas?


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    #76
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    the two corporals were not SAS, neither were they 14 int or any other of the 'hairys', they were members of the Royal Signals unit that supported HQNI - the reason they look like something they weren't was because they were in plain clothes and driving a unmarked car. being in plain clothes and driving an unmarked car was actually very common during OP BANNER for those soldiers who job was the support of the Army (technicians, loggies, signallers etc..) because their job required them to visit lots of locations, and there was never the manpower (or threat) to enable them/require them to travel with a large escort in a 'fully toolled -up' manner.

    yes, but alot of speculation they were SAS, why were they in that area ? British Army would have been warned to stay away for their own safety. It would have been madness for the army authorities not to ban their soldiers from such an area (for their own safety). Why were they armed. Why were they sitting in the car watching the loyalist gunman getting away and being pursued by the crowd. Officially they were not SAS, but alot of speculation they were.


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    #77
    cyrusdvirus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    yes, but alot of speculation they were SAS, why were they in that area ? British Army would have been warned to stay away for their own safety. It would have been madness for the army authorities not to ban their soldiers from such an area (for their own safety). Why were they armed. Why were they sitting in the car watching the loyalist gunman getting away and being pursued by the crowd. Officially they were not SAS, but alot of speculation they were.


    I think you have the Milltown Cemetery killings mixed up with the 2 Corporals.

    The 2 corporals were killed after driving into the funeral of one of the victims of the Milltown attack


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    #78
    DylanJM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭DylanJM


    A local said he knew they were army as they were wearing boots. He said looking at their boots he knew they were SAS. SAS are only allowed laced boots, they are not allowed boots with zips up the side or down the middle which the US like

    The reason for this(I have been told) is that boots are considered a weapon by SAS, give someone a kick of a boot in the face can be very dangerous.

    Are you taking the piss?


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    #79
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    yes, but alot of speculation they were SAS, why were they in that area ? British Army would have been warned to stay away for their own safety. It would have been madness for the army authorities not to ban their soldiers from such an area (for their own safety). Why were they armed. Why were they sitting in the car watching the loyalist gunman getting away and being pursued by the crowd. Officially they were not SAS, but alot of speculation they were.

    one of them made Brian Cowen look like a lean, mean fighting machine. do you really think he was in the SAS?

    you are confused. there were no loyalist gunmen on this occasion - that was the week(?) before when Micheal Stone had attacked the funeral at Milltown Cemetary. there was no attack on this occasion.

    there was a police/army plan for covering the funeral - but these soldiers weren't involved in that plan, they weren't in one of the units allocated to that plan, they were on an entirely unrelated unit task that didn't even have a plan, paid no attention to the fact that there was a 'big plan' for Belfast and that all other units had been warned off from being in or around Belfast because of both the sensitivity required of the plan, and the likelyhood of violence.

    they should never have been allowed out of their location without a plan that fitted into or around the 'Big Plan for Belfast' for that day, but they were - that they were not part of that days police/army plan is indicated by the fact that they had no back-up, and nobody from 39 Bde or the RUC who the hell they were and initially believed that it was another Loyalist attack.


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    #80
    harryd2
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭harryd2


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    Officially they were not SAS, but alot of speculation they were.

    Now the British army would hardly lie would they?


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    #81
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    an sas soldier was killed in the arrest of francis hughes but they would never admit it. its a psychological thing. they try and make the sas appear untouchable


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    #82
    cyrusdvirus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    so untouchable that they openly admit the mistakes that were made on the Fortuna Glacier during the Falklands War, so untouchable that books like Bravo Two Zero have been published, admitting to mistakes. So untouchable that they showed a team leader almost getting roasted alive during Operation Nimrod.

    No one makes them out to be untouchable. They are regarded as highly trained professional soldiers, and more capable than the average Joe Soap on the street, but they can have a bad day too


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    #83
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    gatecrash wrote: »
    so untouchable that they openly admit the mistakes that were made on the Fortuna Glacier during the Falklands War, so untouchable that books like Bravo Two Zero have been published, admitting to mistakes. So untouchable that they showed a team leader almost getting roasted alive during Operation Nimrod.

    No one makes them out to be untouchable. They are regarded as highly trained professional soldiers, and more capable than the average Joe Soap on the street, but they can have a bad day too

    i know there exceptional soldiers but they dont like seeing the ira getting one over them


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    #84
    cyrusdvirus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    paky wrote: »
    i know there exceptional soldiers but they dont like seeing the ira getting one over them

    I'd say they don't like any two bit terrorist scumbag murdering b@stardn knackbag get one over them. Be that Al queda or IRA or anyone.


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    #85
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    gatecrash wrote: »
    I'd say they don't like any two bit terrorist scumbag murdering b@stardn knackbag get one over them. Be that Al queda or IRA or anyone.

    the only terrorist scum that ever operated in ireland wore british uniforms. bravo two zero is a good read to understand the type of scum the sas is made up of. baby killers every last one of them


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    #86
    cyrusdvirus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    I'll refer you to our little chat earlier on in this thread, i think we're always gonna be on opposite ends of this particular topic....

    and rather than get into the "who's right and who's wrong" i think it's best to leave it....


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    #87
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    paky wrote: »
    the only terrorist scum that ever operated in ireland wore british uniforms. bravo two zero is a good read to understand the type of scum the sas is made up of. baby killers every last one of them

    You're dead right, the Provo's were known to wear Brit DPM at times.


    As for the Bravo Two Zero statement, that's a rather odd one.


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    #88
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    I think you have the Milltown Cemetery killings mixed up with the 2 Corporals.

    The 2 corporals were killed after driving into the funeral of one of the victims of the Milltown attack

    Oooooooops sorry


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    #89
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    Are you taking the piss?

    Ok, my fault as I was a bit sparse on information. The reason I said that was that I know someone very well and his brother(now deceased) was in the British army. He was in the MP and alot of his work (going back 20-30 years) was getting guys who were on AWOL or deserted. Usually these guys were actually got at night time after many pints or woken up after been asleep etc etc. These guys usually bare foot or with runners, shoes etc. The MP guys used to step on their toes with their boots, as this would stop them running away and also take the 'fight out of them'. Or so the story went. He used to wear boots the whole time and they referred to them as being a weapon in this regard.

    When the whole Gibraltar thing happened and witnesses said guys with boots he though of his brother. Combat boots also give protection but not as good as safety boots to your toes. In any case I have never served in the BA and only know someone who brother has. His grandfather also served too when we were still under british control. If it is a load of rubbish I will allow serving/former serving members rubbish the story

    In any case a more serious argument seems to be going on at the moment


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    #90
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    OS119 wrote: »
    one of them made Brian Cowen look like a lean, mean fighting machine. do you really think he was in the SAS?

    you are confused. there were no loyalist gunmen on this occasion - that was the week(?) before when Micheal Stone had attacked the funeral at Milltown Cemetary. there was no attack on this occasion.

    there was a police/army plan for covering the funeral - but these soldiers weren't involved in that plan, they weren't in one of the units allocated to that plan, they were on an entirely unrelated unit task that didn't even have a plan, paid no attention to the fact that there was a 'big plan' for Belfast and that all other units had been warned off from being in or around Belfast because of both the sensitivity required of the plan, and the likelyhood of violence.

    they should never have been allowed out of their location without a plan that fitted into or around the 'Big Plan for Belfast' for that day, but they were - that they were not part of that days police/army plan is indicated by the fact that they had no back-up, and nobody from 39 Bde or the RUC who the hell they were and initially believed that it was another Loyalist attack.

    wasn't one of the guys carrying his id badge for his previous base in Germany, Herevene is it or something like that. I read somewhere that this was mistaken for Hereford, hence the sas rumours.


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    #91
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    wasn't one of the guys carrying his id badge for his previous base in Germany, Herevene is it or something like that. I read somewhere that this was mistaken for Hereford, hence the sas rumours.

    i think it was his FMT600 (his military driving licence) - it stated the issuing/testing station, which was Herford in Germany.

    all very tragic.


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