Unification?

Godge · 30-01-2015 6:10pm

Karl Stein wrote: »

Interesting that the thread has now attracted a number of well known neurotically anti-republican/nationalist posters with a reputation for sneering and ignorance. It's a good thing these types weren't negotiating the end of the troubles, their ilk purposefully ignored, or we might still be living with it.

You know what guys? Ye're an ever decreasing insignificance of a bunch.

Only 8% of people in the south are against a UI (down from 16% at its height)

Have a great day.

Welcome back.

I am in favour of a united Ireland, I would say so in an opinion poll.

However a number of conditions would have to be met:

- I am not going to pay for it, so the North will have to demonstrate its financial independence from Westminister
- Not only that, it would also have to show how it could fund the lower taxation rates and higher social welfare rates in the South
- A majority of the Unionist community would have to favour it.
- There would be tangible benefits to the South.

Many many people in the South would share the same conditions, even if they wouldn't say them out loud. So, as I have said before, can't see it happening, certainly not in my lifetime.

Karl Stein wrote: »

It's utterly ridiculous.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

I'm outa here. Enjoy.

Iwasfrozen · 30-01-2015 6:16pm

Godge wrote: »

Welcome back.

I am in favour of a united Ireland, I would say so in an opinion poll.

However a number of conditions would have to be met:

- I am not going to pay for it, so the North will have to demonstrate its financial independence from Westminister
- Not only that, it would also have to show how it could fund the lower taxation rates and higher social welfare rates in the South
- A majority of the Unionist community would have to favour it.
- There would be tangible benefits to the South.

Many many people in the South would share the same conditions, even if they wouldn't say them out loud. So, as I have said before, can't see it happening, certainly not in my lifetime.

This would be the main one for me, I don't have an ideological aversion to a United Ireland but I'll be dammned if I'm going to pay for it.

If Northern Ireland can demonstrate financial independence from the United Kingdom for a period of several years and has enough funds to support the increase in security costs unification will inevitably incur then a might, possibly, maybe, consider voting in favor. But only if the conditions you mention are met.

Happyman42 · 30-01-2015 6:18pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And what if the perfidious Irish and Northern Irish people vote for the Blue shirts or worse DUP as is their habit of late?

If both parties survive, then they have every democratic right to stand for election and I don't have a problem if they are elected, and I doubt anybody espousing a UI would have a problem with that.

No mo chara, to build a true the rescission of democratic rights is necessitated.

It's not as if there isn't historical precedence for this.

Take that up with those who want a 32 County Worker's Socialist Republic.

Iwasfrozen · 30-01-2015 6:20pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

If both parties survive, then they have every democratic right to stand for election and I don't have a problem if they are elected, and I doubt anybody espousing a UI would have a problem with that.

Glad to hear it.

Take that up with those who want a 32 County Worker's Socialist Republic.

That would be SF then.

Happyman42 · 30-01-2015 6:24pm

Godge wrote: »

You see, this is where it becomes clear that the country is no way ready for unity.

In their desperate attempts to dig up concrete support for a united Ireland, the advocates don't engage in persuasion,

I have no intention of wasting my time trying to persuade bigots, on either side of the issue. That is what I said.
If you actually read what I was saying instead of the usual fearful kneejerking then you would have seen what I have to say about ordinary decent Unionism.

Happyman42 · 30-01-2015 6:25pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That would be SF then.

And they are fully accepting of the fact that they have to be elected to achieve that, or am I missing something. Their big bad army are waiting in the wings?

Godge · 30-01-2015 6:29pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have no intention of wasting my time trying to persuade bigots, on either side of the issue. That is what I said.
If you actually read what I was saying instead of the usual fearful kneejerking then you would have seen what I have to say about ordinary decent Unionism.

Well, you have said that you don't intend persuading the "likes of Godge" and you have said that you don't intend persuading bigots, so maybe you would clarify whether bigots are a subset of the "likes of Godge" or the "likes of Godge" are a subset of bigots.

Or maybe you are not calling me a bigot and there are others you wouldn't bother persuading.

Karl Stein · 30-01-2015 6:29pm

Godge wrote: »

Welcome back.

Thanks.

- I am not going to pay for it, so the North will have to demonstrate its financial independence from Westminister
- Not only that, it would also have to show how it could fund the lower taxation rates and higher social welfare rates in the South

Yeah seems reasonable enough. I think it would require a restructuring of the economy in the north so that it would resemble the south to make a transition feasible.

- A majority of the Unionist community would have to favour it.

That's not reasonable. Are you saying that if, sometime in the future, that unionists make up 45% of the population you'd want more than 50% of that number to agree before the gears of a UI would begin to turn? It won't take a unionist majority - just a regular old majority. I find this desire to treat unionists with 'kid gloves' weird.

can't see it happening, certainly not in my lifetime.

Perhaps not, who knows? I would say though that things can change dramatically in a relatively short period of time. If there's one predictable thing about the future it's that it is unpredictable.

If you'd have told someone in 1986 that, in less than a generation, Russia would be selling capitalist space jaunts to millionaire Americans people would have laughed at you.

RED L4 0TH · 30-01-2015 6:33pm

Godge wrote: »

I am not going to pay for it, so the North will have to demonstrate its financial independence from Westminister

An unreasonable demand. If the city & county of Dublin became independent in the morning, would the remnant of the RoI have a sustainable level of financial independence? Does economic activity in Dublin not already help pay for other regions in the current 26 county area to a certain extent? Do you object to this?

K-9 · 30-01-2015 6:56pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Who said it doesn't interest me?

The romantic in me is actually fairly positively predisposed to unification. But as with many nationalist causes in Ireland (Irish language being another) I'm both amused and driven to despair by the fact that most of the proponents of such causes are complete morons. And I mean should not be allowed to breed morons.

Comments like that on a forum dealing with N.I. really aren't the cleverest.

So threads like this are a bit like passing by a car crash - you really shouldn't be interested, but you just can't help but slow down and look when you pass by.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Awe, diddums. Have we been listening to dogma so long that we need to take everything said literally?

Stop trolling please.

Godge · 30-01-2015 7:40pm

RED L4 0TH wrote: »

An unreasonable demand. If the city & county of Dublin became independent in the morning, would the remnant of the RoI have a sustainable level of financial independence? Does economic activity in Dublin not already help pay for other regions in the current 26 county area to a certain extent? Do you object to this?

Yes, I do. I object to the LPT revenue from Dublin being used to subvent other local authorities.

However, Dublin is not a separate country looking to join with the rest of Ireland, Northern Ireland is.

I don't want me and my kids paying extra taxes to support the North. You mightn't like that but a united Ireland would be nice but not worth paying for.

RED L4 0TH · 30-01-2015 8:33pm

Godge wrote: »

Yes, I do.

So you're against the redistribution of a certain % of the output of the wealthier & more productive regions of a nation state to the poorer regions in order to raise those region's standards? Isn't this one of the nation state's most fundamental duties, i.e. to distribute the wealth created by economic & other activities within it's jurisdiction so as to benefit all of the people that live there, regardless of where they are located?

Iwasfrozen · 30-01-2015 9:11pm

RED L4 0TH wrote: »

So you're against the redistribution of a certain % of the output of the wealthier & more productive regions of a nation state to the poorer regions in order to raise those region's standards? Isn't this one of the nation state's most fundamental duties, i.e. to distribute the wealth created by economic & other activities within it's jurisdiction so as to benefit all of the people that live there, regardless of where they are located?

Whether it is or isn't is more of a philosophical question than political.

Nevertheless if Northern Ireland is going to be a continuous negative contributor to a United Ireland it's not a great incentive for us Southerners to support taking it on.

Saintleger · 30-01-2015 9:29pm

I have no problem with a United Ireland in principal but whole hardheartedly agree with Godge. We the North would have to be a lot more financially viable and there would have to be significant proportion of the Unionist people who would be willing to go for it.
For those reasons I think we're a long long way off it ever happening but I don't think it's a complete impossibility.

The North is cutting thousands of Public sector jobs to meet the new budget requirements. I think this equates to a 10% reduction in the public sector work force but even at that we still have a crazy number of people who collect a wage directly from the government this needs to change quickly, we need to grow our Small and Medium Enterprise to a level in line with the south and prove we can have a viable economy.

Concessions would have to be made to the Unionist community to show them they are not only welcome in a united Ireland but more importantly wanted. This could mean that the North or maybe more specifically the north-eastern part of NI may need to be given autonomy to make decisions regarding local regional issues. They may still want to have the option to pledge loyalty of the Queen (or more likely King George the 7th) And hold a British Passport just for being born in the north.
The way I see it working is a Northern Ireland exsisting, still only with in a United Ireland instead of a United Kingdom.

DarkyHughes · 30-01-2015 11:13pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

If both parties survive, then they have every democratic right to stand for election and I don't have a problem if they are elected, and I doubt anybody espousing a UI would have a problem with that.

Take that up with those who want a 32 County Worker's Socialist Republic.

Take it up with me anytime you's like.

DarkyHughes · 30-01-2015 11:14pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Glad to hear it.

That would be SF then.

And fair play to them for it.

eire4 · 30-01-2015 11:37pm

K-9 wrote: »

Removing religious run schools would make a huge difference. Multi-denominational schools are getting more and more popular but it's a slow process.

I would agree with that. It will take time but like many issues when previously seperate groups come together rather then being kept apart old prejudices and differences often fade over time.

Godge · 30-01-2015 11:58pm

RED L4 0TH wrote: »

So you're against the redistribution of a certain % of the output of the wealthier & more productive regions of a nation state to the poorer regions in order to raise those region's standards? Isn't this one of the nation state's most fundamental duties, i.e. to distribute the wealth created by economic & other activities within it's jurisdiction so as to benefit all of the people that live there, regardless of where they are located?

Northern Ireland is not part of our State and before it joins, I want it to pay its way. We have worked damn hard to build up this country while they pissed the time away throwing rocks and bombs at each other. When they can stand on their own two feet they can join us.

katydid · 31-01-2015 12:00am

eire4 wrote: »

I would agree with that. It will take time but like many issues when previously seperate groups come together rather then being kept apart old prejudices and differences often fade over time.

Still doesn't explain how unionists would stop being unionists and nationalists would stop being nationalists.

eire4 · 31-01-2015 12:28am

katydid wrote: »

Still doesn't explain how unionists would stop being unionists and nationalists would stop being nationalists.

So now you think the idea of integrated education is bad is that it?

Either way its not about the negative idea of stop being one thing or another as you put it but the positive idea of people growing up and learning about those who are different to them and learning that we can build a healthy Ireland that respects and indeed embraces its differences.

katydid · 31-01-2015 12:33am

eire4 wrote: »

So now you think the idea of integrated education is bad is that it?

Either way its not about the negative idea of stop being one thing or another as you put it but the positive idea of people growing up and learning about those who are different to them and learning that we can build a healthy Ireland that respects and indeed embraces its differences.

I've no problem with integrated education. Here or there.

I'm just asking a simple question; how would it affect people's political stance? Unionists are not going to stop being Unionists because they go to school with Nationalists.

They can learn to respect differences to their heart's content but the differences will still be there.

eire4 · 31-01-2015 12:45am

katydid wrote: »

I've no problem with integrated education. Here or there.

I'm just asking a simple question; how would it affect people's political stance? Unionists are not going to stop being Unionists because they go to school with Nationalists.

They can learn to respect differences to their heart's content but the differences will still be there.

Interesting that is certainly not exactly an endorsement of integrated education. You cannot even bring yourself to say yes its's a good thing.

Indeed you asked a simple question and you got an answer to your simple question. You have the negative viewpoint that people need to stop being one thing or another. No they do not. Integrated education while it will take time to filter through can help build a society on our island that not only respects differences but embraces differences.

Saintleger · 31-01-2015 12:52am

eire4 wrote: »

So now you think the idea of integrated education is bad is that it?

Either way its not about the negative idea of stop being one thing or another as you put it but the positive idea of people growing up and learning about those who are different to them and learning that we can build a healthy Ireland that respects and indeed embraces its differences.

But that's the thing No doubt the majority of Unionists feel just as strongly about Northern Ireland being part of a healthy United Kingdom that respects and embraces people's differences. They are ideologically opposed to the idea of a United Ireland, no matter how much they understand why you hold your views they are still going to see themselves as British citizens.

I live In NI. I'm from a nationalist Background, and I can honestly say I don't feel discriminated against in any way. I can legitimately call myself Irish even though I was born in a part of the United Kingdom. I don't feel any less Irish than my Sister who was born and currently resides in the south.

RED L4 0TH · 31-01-2015 1:10am

Godge wrote: »

Northern Ireland is not part of our State and before it joins, I want it to pay its way. We have worked damn hard to build up this country while they pissed the time away throwing rocks and bombs at each other. When they can stand on their own two feet they can join us.

What do you mean by 'pay it's way'? Are you talking about income from economic activity in the NI region being able to cover all its public expenditure on health, education, infrastructure etc before it can join? If you want NI to pay its way, then why not regions in the south too? Would you like regions that pay their way to secede from the regions that don't, like the Italian Northern League for example? Maybe you yearn for the Irish version of Padania to emerge...........

eire4 · 31-01-2015 1:11am

Saintleger wrote: »

But that's the thing No doubt the majority of Unionists feel just as strongly about Northern Ireland being part of a healthy United Kingdom that respects and embraces people's differences. They are ideologically opposed to the idea of a United Ireland, no matter how much they understand why you hold your views they are still going to see themselves as British citizens.

I live In NI. I'm from a nationalist Background, and I can honestly say I don't feel discriminated against in any way. I can legitimately call myself Irish even though I was born in a part of the United Kingdom. I don't feel any less Irish than my Sister who was born and currently resides in the south.

That would be an interesting point to make if indeed there was a healthy UK that respects and embraces people's differences. That of course is not the case and indeed the long term future of the UK as it currently exists is questionable both in terms of Scotland breaking away and possibly leaving the EU.

Godge · 31-01-2015 1:28am

RED L4 0TH wrote: »

What do you mean by 'pay it's way'? Are you talking about income from economic activity in the NI region being able to cover all its public expenditure on health, education, infrastructure etc before it can join? If you want NI to pay its way, then why not regions in the south too? Would you like regions that pay their way to secede from the regions that don't, like the Italian Northern League for example? Maybe you yearn for the Irish version of Padania to emerge...........

I am not paying for Northern Ireland now, I am not picking up the tab later.

I do pay for the rest of the Republic, but hey, that is the democratic decision.

So before I vote for the North to join us, they can pay for an entry ticket. Sorry if that upsets you but if you want my vote.....

Saintleger · 31-01-2015 1:30am

eire4 wrote: »

That would be an interesting point to make if indeed there was a healthy UK that respects and embraces people's differences. That of course is not the case and indeed the long term future of the UK as it currently exists is questionable both in terms of Scotland breaking away and possibly leaving the EU.

I think for the most part the UK does a pretty good job of respecting and embracing people's difference. The number of people who identify as British I've met who are friendly opening and welcoming people far out weighs the inward looking xenophobic part of the country. like I said in my pervious post. I may have been born in the UK but I certainly don't feel any less Irish and anyone born in the South.

Does Racism exist in the Republic? Are there bigots? Are there people who would not want to embrace either the nationalist or Unionist factions of Northern Ireland? Of course there are!

My point is that a Unionist no matter how open minded, embracing of your right to your political beliefs is not going to want to be anything other than British and I feel that's their right just as it's my right to identify as Irish.
If a United Ireland is ever going to happen the 100,000s of people who very clearly identify as British will have to be allowed to express that Britishness if it's ever going to succeed imo.

DarkyHughes · 31-01-2015 1:31am

Saintleger wrote: »

But that's the thing No doubt the majority of Unionists feel just as strongly about Northern Ireland being part of a healthy United Kingdom that respects and embraces people's differences. They are ideologically opposed to the idea of a United Ireland, no matter how much they understand why you hold your views they are still going to see themselves as British citizens.

I live In NI. I'm from a nationalist Background, and I can honestly say I don't feel discriminated against in any way. I can legitimately call myself Irish even though I was born in a part of the United Kingdom. I don't feel any less Irish than my Sister who was born and currently resides in the south.

Yeah, that UKIP machine really loves all different sorts of people.

RED L4 0TH · 31-01-2015 1:31am

Godge wrote: »

I am not paying for Northern Ireland now, I am not picking up the tab later.

I do pay for the rest of the Republic, but hey, that is the democratic decision.

So before I vote for the North to join us, they can pay for an entry ticket. Sorry if that upsets you but if you want my vote.....

I sense you would vote for a party that proposed an Irish Padania.

Happyman42 · 31-01-2015 1:33am

katydid wrote: »

Still doesn't explain how unionists would stop being unionists and nationalists would stop being nationalists.

The 'threat' to peace now comes from a certain breed of Unionism. Hypothetically, but not all that hard to imagine if you look at the vitriol, they will defend their allegiance to the crown by killing PSNI officers if it comes to it. Look at the flag protests, Drumcree, and marches, they see those they formerly championed as their enemy. And all the PSNI are doing is enforcing 'NORMALITY'.

If something is not done that will fester, just as it festered through the 50's 60's and 70's in Nationalist areas and we have a mess again. And nobody will stop to think why that is.
The reason is because we have never settled the issue of who we all are on this island, the stumbling block is the British presence and their incipient irresponsibility to their colonies, acquisitions, whatever you want to call them.

The trauma of being a Unionist...the British have clearly said (by signing the GFA) you are not British if a majority on the island of Ireland say so, we are not sending warships to defend you, we are signing the fact on a dotted line and you can make the best of it. No other way to look at it, as a Unionist.
Not easy for Unionism but that is what they have to face up to and make choices for their future on the basis of that stark fact.
Anything that can help to remove the perceived threat from nationalism, like integrated education has to welcomed and should be mandatory.

eire4 · 31-01-2015 1:37am

Saintleger wrote: »

I think for the most part the UK does a pretty good job of respecting and embracing people's difference. The number of people who identify as British I've met who are friendly opening and welcoming people far out weighs the inward looking xenophobic part of the country. like I said in my pervious post. I may have been born in the UK but I certainly don't feel any less Irish and anyone born in the South.

Does Racism exist in the Republic? Are there bigots? Are there people who would not want to embrace either the nationalist or Unionist factions of Northern Ireland? Of course there are!

My point is that a Unionist no matter how open minded, embracing of your right to your political beliefs is not going to want to be anything other than British and I feel that's their right just as it's my right to identify as Irish.
If a United Ireland is ever going to happen the 100,000s of people who very clearly identify as British will have to be allowed to express that Britishness if it's ever going to succeed imo.

The last line there is key and I am very much in favour of building a positive society on our island that embraces and respects those differences. There are always going to be groups who differ in outlooks and views within any society. What is most important is that society does its best to embrace those differences. Thus bringing people together in integrated education can play a very vital role in that evolution to a more positive and pluralistic society in Ireland. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on how the UK handles minorities. I mean that on an official governmental type level. Most British people on the street so to speak are I would agree friendly. Although the UKIP standing at 17% in current polls for the upcoming British elections is a concern given their less then open minded shall we say outlook.

Godge · 31-01-2015 1:38am

Happyman42 wrote: »

The 'threat' to peace now comes from a certain breed of Unionism. Hypothetically, but not all that hard to imagine if you look at the vitriol, they will defend their allegiance to the crown by killing PSNI officers if it comes to it. Look at the flag protests, Drumcree, and marches, they see those they formerly championed as their enemy. And all the PSNI are doing is enforcing 'NORMALITY'.

If something is not done that will fester, just as it festered through the 50's 60's and 70's in Nationalist areas and we have a mess again. And nobody will stop to think why that is.
The reason is because we have never settled the issue of who we all are on this island, the stumbling block is the British presence and their incipient irresponsibility to their colonies, acquisitions, whatever you want to call them.

The trauma of being a Unionist...the British have clearly said (by signing the GFA) you are not British if a majority on the island of Ireland say so, we are not sending warships to defend you, we are signing the fact on a dotted line and you can make the best of it. No other way to look at it, as a Unionist.
Not easy for Unionism but that is what they have to face up to and make choices for their future on the basis of that stark fact.
Anything that can help to remove the perceived threat from nationalism, like integrated education has to welcomed and should be mandatory.

The bit in bold is not true.

If the South votes 90:10 for a united Ireland but the North rejects it 60:40, a majority on the island will have voted for a united Ireland but there will not be a united Ireland.

As for the rest of your post, mostly drivel, the threat of violence comes from the remnants of the IRA. Whether it was Garda McCabe or Garda Donohue, we know who were involved. Criminal activity the same, when Irish Water issue the boil water notices for Dundalk, it will be because of the diesel laundering factories in South Armagh.

Saintleger · 31-01-2015 1:39am

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Yeah, that UKIP machine really loves all different sorts of people.

And how many seats do the have in the House of Commons?

Saintleger · 31-01-2015 1:49am

eire4 wrote: »

The last line is key and I am very much in favour of building a positive society on our island that embraces and respects those differences. There are always going to be groups who differ in outlooks and views wiin any society. What is most important is that society does its best to embrace those differences. Thus bringing people together in integrated education can play a very vital role in that evolution to a more positive and pluralistic society in Ireland.

Agreed integrated education will have a huge part to play in normalizing things here. I have no opposition to a united Ireland in principle, but I cant see a situation happening where a significant proportion, never mind a majority of unionists will ever abandon their desire to be British.

Do i think through integrated education Unionists and Nationalists will have a better respect for each others traditions? most definitely, but I'm finding it hard to see how it will necessarily lead us to a Stable United Ireland.

eire4 · 31-01-2015 1:56am

Saintleger wrote: »

And how many seats do the have in the House of Commons?

Not many but sadly they are polling at 17% this week and we are not that far away from the next British election. That is not a small finge group type number it has to be said.

Happyman42 · 31-01-2015 1:58am

Godge wrote: »

The bit in bold is not true.

If the South votes 90:10 for a united Ireland but the North rejects it 60:40, a majority on the island will have voted for a united Ireland but there will not be a united Ireland.

As for the rest of your post, mostly drivel, the threat of violence comes from the remnants of the IRA. Whether it was Garda McCabe or Garda Donohue, we know who were involved. Criminal activity the same, when Irish Water issue the boil water notices for Dundalk, it will be because of the diesel laundering factories in South Armagh.

Gosh, you really have the blinkers on...review the last few years in NI, who where the aggressors and the trouble makers?
I don't need to win anything, but you do need to be honest here, the British have said, we will not defend your 'right' to be British and a part of Britain if the majority of people say that is the case. It's a tacit withdrawal that just needs Unionism to admit to. Peter Robinson and Ian Paisley knew it the minute it happened, they softened their coughs.

Iwasfrozen · 31-01-2015 2:59am

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Take it up with me anytime you's like.

Will a socialist worker's republic take more than one term in office to build?

And if so what happens if FG, DUP, FF or any of those other capitalist parties get in next term? How do you prevent this happening?

DarkyHughes · 31-01-2015 5:14am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Will a socialist worker's republic take more than one term in office to build?

And if so what happens if FG, DUP, FF or any of those other capitalist parties get in next term? How do you prevent this happening?

It's hard to put a time scale on how long it will take to create a democratic socialist state. There's never been a socialist Republic created any where else in the world so I'd say it's impossible to put a time scale on it.

Well that's how democracy works. Hopefully people will like the new system so much they won't to revert back to right-wing parties & will stick with progressive parties.

I actually feel sorry for the people of the UK that they don't have a viable left-wing alternative. New Labor is a million miles away from the Labor party that after WW2 introduced the welfare state & the NHS & all that nice stuff that people needed & wanted even tho the country was broke.

Saintleger · 31-01-2015 8:45am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Will a socialist worker's republic take more than one term in office to build?

And if so what happens if FG, DUP, FF or any of those other capitalist parties get in next term? How do you prevent this happening?

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in Greece. Personally I cant see it ending well. If they end up digging a bigger hole for themselves it's bound to hurt the anti-austerity movements throughout europe. only time will tell i suppose

Saintleger · 31-01-2015 8:55am

eire4 wrote: »

Not many but sadly they are polling at 17% this week and we are not that far away from the next British election. That is not a small finge group type number it has to be said.

True but at the minute they are a mino party and until they prove themselves in a general election they can't really be said to represent the British people.

Again like I said above the vast majority of people who identity as British are welcoming friendly people. Look how Irish Society has marginalised the the travelling community here in Ireland. any could say that many in that group have done themselves no favours but it would be hard to argue that they aren't seen as outside Irish society by a huge proportion of Irish people.

blinding · 01-02-2015 5:07am

Regarding Northern Irelands place in the United Kingdom.

Its interesting with regard to the Northern Ireland political parties being involved in the Election debates.

So far anyway its been decided that the NI parties will not be involved. It appears that the british establishment has decided to finally treat both communities in NI equally.

They are now jointly considered as second class citizen/subjects .

Ah well ! ! !

eire4 · 01-02-2015 5:09am

Saintleger wrote: »

True but at the minute they are a mino party and until they prove themselves in a general election they can't really be said to represent the British people.

Again like I said above the vast majority of people who identity as British are welcoming friendly people. Look how Irish Society has marginalised the the travelling community here in Ireland. any could say that many in that group have done themselves no favours but it would be hard to argue that they aren't seen as outside Irish society by a huge proportion of Irish people.

Very valid point you raise there in regards to the travelling community in Ireland.
Also given the sheer scale of the abuse and worse of so many of our fellow citizens for decades there is plenty of serious basic human rights issues we need to look at and deal with at home.

As for the UKIP no question I was never suggesting they represent mainstream opinion in England but it is fair to say based on currently polling they are not a fringe party either in terms of support.

bilston · 01-02-2015 6:57pm

eire4 wrote: »

Not many but sadly they are polling at 17% this week and we are not that far away from the next British election. That is not a small finge group type number it has to be said.

They have two seats I think and they were on the back of by elections when protest votes tend to be at their highest.

They may well get a few more seats in the General Election but because of the UK system running at 17% is irrelevant if they don't top the polls in the constituencies.

It will be interesting to see how Farage does in the leadership debates. I reckon Cameron and Milliband will tear shreds out of him and expose their policies (or lack of them) beyond the EU and immigration.

K-9 · 02-02-2015 12:36pm

katydid wrote: »

I've no problem with integrated education. Here or there.

I'm just asking a simple question; how would it affect people's political stance? Unionists are not going to stop being Unionists because they go to school with Nationalists.

They can learn to respect differences to their heart's content but the differences will still be there.

More integration means more respect for different religions/traditions. More and better education leads to a better understanding of "the other side".

That doesn't necessarily mean automatic unification in 20 years time! But it helps make N.I. a more normal society with less conflict and division. When things are less tribal unification, staying with the UK or independence, whatever the options, can be discussed from a more neutral and objective point of view. Less automatic, knee jerk emotional thinking and factions about.

bilston wrote: »

They have two seats I think and they were on the back of by elections when protest votes tend to be at their highest.

They may well get a few more seats in the General Election but because of the UK system running at 17% is irrelevant if they don't top the polls in the constituencies.

It will be interesting to see how Farage does in the leadership debates. I reckon Cameron and Milliband will tear shreds out of him and expose their policies (or lack of them) beyond the EU and immigration.

Farage shouts a lot. The BNP had a similar surge mid term last time and had a disaster of an election, losing loads of councilors as well.

I don't think UKIP will fall away like that but the problem is the first past the post system. They might do damage to the Tories though and let Labour in, I can't imagine ex LibDem voters flocking to them though!

katydid · 02-02-2015 1:19pm

K-9 wrote: »

More integration means more respect for different religions/traditions. More and better education leads to a better understanding of "the other side".

That doesn't necessarily mean automatic unification in 20 years time! But it helps make N.I. a more normal society with less conflict and division. When things are less tribal unification, staying with the UK or independence, whatever the options, can be discussed from a more neutral and objective point of view. Less automatic, knee jerk emotional thinking and factions about.

Farage shouts a lot. The BNP had a similar surge mid term last time and had a disaster of an election, losing loads of councilors as well.

I don't think UKIP will fall away like that but the problem is the first past the post system. They might do damage to the Tories though and let Labour in, I can't imagine ex LibDem voters flocking to them though!

I don't deny integrated education would create more respect for difference. We could do with more integrated education down here.

But that still doesn't answer my question as to how that would change people's political opinions. Understanding other's differences doesn't mean that they abandon what makes them "different".

I do agree that anything that makes NI more normal would be good, though, and it's not a short term solution.

SpaceTime · 02-02-2015 1:29pm

Unless Northern Ireland can pay its own way, I don't think this is either possible or likely to happen. The Republic couldn't possibly offer Northern Ireland the level of subsidy (including job creation by direct state intervention) that the UK has been doing for all these years. In fact, it's quite probable that the UK won't be able or willing to do that in the long term either. But, at least in the current situation it's likely to be slowly weaned off rather than just cut off.

If both parts of the island were booming and showing very strong economic growth, it might be possible. However, at the moment it would be really damaging to both economies.

The other issue is that while the nationalists in Northern Ireland would be quite happy with the politics of it, the more extreme Northern Ireland views these days are from the unionist / loyalist side of things. They would most likely create chaos and I really don't want to see Northern Ireland's violence spilling into Dublin on a regular basis for example.

I honestly think we're stuck in a bit of a limbo situation for quite a few decades yet.

The most logical thing for now is to have a sort of a gentle move towards the border not really mattering at all. It's a shame really that the Euro wasn't more successful and the UK joined it, however that may yet happen in decades to come. It's still only a baby currency taking its first steps really.

The big concern now that could set the whole process back decades would be if the UK left the EU and suddenly we saw a return to customs borders or something like that. It's highly unlikely but if UKIP came to power, you'd never know what might happen.

Honestly though, I don't think from a practical point of view being in NI or the Republic of Ireland makes a hell of a lot of difference to people's day to day lives. Both countries are ranked extremely well and share very similar values these days and Northern Ireland sectarian politics's really negative impacts are no longer having negative impacts on people. I honestly cannot see any situation ever arriving where Northern Ireland would go back to the old days of discriminatory politics and public services. It's moved on a hell of a lot since then.

It just strikes me as one of these things that a pragmatic compromise is the best solution to. It's 100 years too late and the two sections Ireland have definitely sailed off in different directions.

I'd also have big concerns about taking Northern Ireland (mostly loyalist/unionist) very conservative and religious extremest politics into the Irish system. We've spent the last 30+ years moving away from that kind of nut-jobbery and we're finally seeing a liberal society down here and moves towards being a lot more like the rest of Northern Europe. That's most definitely not the case amongst aspects of loyalism / unionism which constantly reminds me of the US Bible Belt.

DarkyHughes · 02-02-2015 5:52pm

blinding wrote: »

Regarding Northern Irelands place in the United Kingdom.

Its interesting with regard to the Northern Ireland political parties being involved in the Election debates.

So far anyway its been decided that the NI parties will not be involved. It appears that the british establishment has decided to finally treat both communities in NI equally.

They are now jointly considered as second class citizen/subjects .

Ah well ! ! !

Do you think Sinn Fein would benefit from taking their seats in the House of Commons like Benn suggested they should do a few years back?

SpaceTime · 02-02-2015 6:06pm

I honestly think it's a shame in many respects that the UK doesn't have a proper federal democracy. The current system basically could end up excluding NI and Scotland from national decisions anyway.

Crooked Jack · 02-02-2015 6:56pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Unless Northern Ireland can pay its own way, I don't think this is either possible or likely to happen. The Republic couldn't possibly offer Northern Ireland the level of subsidy (including job creation by direct state intervention) that the UK has been doing for all these years. In fact, it's quite probable that the UK won't be able or willing to do that in the long term either. But, at least in the current situation it's likely to be slowly weaned off rather than just cut off.

But nobody is proposing a switching of the current system with the only difference being the southern government taking on the British government's role. This is a fallacy pedalled by partitionists. Advocates of a reunified Ireland espouse a new country, built from the ground up. Amalgamating services separated by a poisonous border, cutting the fat of duplication north and south, redistributing services to properly serve the nation, turning the eastern Dublin/Belfast corridor into an economic powerhouse, marketing the nation as a whole to the world rather than having two parts of it competing.
And this is not the task of one person, party of philosophy, it requires the work and cooperation of all parties, experts, businesspeople etc...
Nor is anyone suggesting this happens tomorrow, it's a process of planning, building, educating and gaining consent.
The notion that if SF were in charge the border would be thrown open tomorrow with Dublin covering all the costs and hordes of loyalists marching down the M1 to burn the Dail is total partitionist fear mongering and fantasy. And fair play to them, it's working, cause I'm getting sick of every day having to explain on this thing that their vision of reunification is not the one that republicans are working towards.

SpaceTime wrote: »

The other issue is that while the nationalists in Northern Ireland would be quite happy with the politics of it, the more extreme Northern Ireland views these days are from the unionist / loyalist side of things. They would most likely create chaos and I really don't want to see Northern Ireland's violence spilling into Dublin on a regular basis for example.

Again, how? All the major parties have signed up to the principle of "consent" (ridiculous name but that's another argument for another day.) Any loyalists opposed to it at that stage would be a minority of a minority. And how are they going to create chaos on the streets of Dublin? Are they going to march down the M1? History has shown us that without the guidance of the British security forces loyalists are limited to sporadic outbursts of localised violence. How will that sit with people in their area? In the event of reunification what will they be fighting for? Will they burn Belfast in protest? But without the RUC to help them be limited to destroying their own areas?That'll go down well with their remaining supporters. Perhaps they'll plant a few dud pipebombs in Dublin in order to, what? Make the north independent, an outcome nobody wants, a philosophy that it's main proponents, the UDA and their fellow travellers, abandoned decades ago.
Of maybe they'll bomb London in order tow hat, make the brits come back>? Invade?
The thing is reunification is the end game, the only end game. Once it happens, then, only then, can we start finally building a real nation.

SpaceTime wrote: »

I honestly think we're stuck in a bit of a limbo situation for quite a few decades yet.

Probably. The thing with unionism is that even if something will benefit them you have to move very slowly in order to keep them on board. Just look at their reaction to the 11+, more than anyone else that whole system was failing working class, protestant boys but unionism fought tooth and nail to preserve it.

SpaceTime wrote: »

The most logical thing for now is to have a sort of a gentle move towards the border not really mattering at all. It's a shame really that the Euro wasn't more successful and the UK joined it, however that may yet happen in decades to come. It's still only a baby currency taking its first steps really.

Yup, agree here too, like I said, no one is proposing switching everything over at 6pm on Tuesday, it will be a process of creating stronger and stronger cross border links making the border less and less relevant and highlighting how much of an impediment it actually is to progress and prosperity.

SpaceTime wrote: »

The big concern now that could set the whole process back decades would be if the UK left the EU and suddenly we saw a return to customs borders or something like that. It's highly unlikely but if UKIP came to power, you'd never know what might happen.

As someone who lives on the border I can confirm that any such action would indeed be absolutely disastrous and could very easily lead to violence. The British Army are simply not to be trusted in Ireland and have historically been amongst the IRA's best recruiters.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Honestly though, I don't think from a practical point of view being in NI or the Republic of Ireland makes a hell of a lot of difference to people's day to day lives. Both countries are ranked extremely well and share very similar values these days and Northern Ireland sectarian politics's really negative impacts are no longer having negative impacts on people. I honestly cannot see any situation ever arriving where Northern Ireland would go back to the old days of discriminatory politics and public services. It's moved on a hell of a lot since then.

It just strikes me as one of these things that a pragmatic compromise is the best solution to. It's 100 years too late and the two sections Ireland have definitely sailed off in different directions.

Utterly ridiculous. Sailed off in what different directions? I live on the border. Work and socialise north and south. Have family and friends from Derry to Kerry and can confirm that any differences are no more profound than the colloquial differences between Donegal and Dublin or Galway City and rural Offaly. I personally have much more in common with people in north Louth and Monaghan than I do with those in Newry or Belfast.

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'd also have big concerns about taking Northern Ireland (mostly loyalist/unionist) very conservative and religious extremest politics into the Irish system. We've spent the last 30+ years moving away from that kind of nut-jobbery and we're finally seeing a liberal society down here and moves towards being a lot more like the rest of Northern Europe. That's most definitely not the case amongst aspects of loyalism / unionism which constantly reminds me of the US Bible Belt.

Certain aspects of it, yes, but they remain, as I said, a minority within a minority. In fact it could be a unifying thing with right wing unionism, far from finding a reunified Ireland an alien place, finding a kinship in the conservative southern right.
Ireland as a whole, however, north and south, is moving inexorably towards becoming a far more liberal society.

SpaceTime · 02-02-2015 9:19pm

Doubt they'd find much kinship in the conservative southern political niche as it's shrinking rapidly and staunchly catholic and tends to be somewhat socialist economically...

Not really sure there's any niche left like that.

When I say sailed off in different directions, I mean that decades of sectarian politics in the North and the very hardliner religious extreme views taken by the DUP in particular would be pretty alien / frightening to a lot of people in the south.

It's like an aspect of NI became so fixated with the politics around nationalism vs unionism and warped that into left vs right.

The aspect of the DUP I'd have severe difficult with is the ultra right, socially conservative, anti modernity aspect.
I can 100% respect the UUP and moderate mainstream unionism much the same way as I can the Tory party. Doesn't mean I agree with them but they're logical and reasonable.

It's this highly religious stuff that just leaves me very cold and I feel like they've more in common with the US religious right than anything in the Republic or Britian too!

I just think that aspect of NI politics would be incredibly difficult to cohabit with in a new state.

Can you just imagine the DUP's likely contributions to a debate on same sex marriage for example?!