Unification?

Nomis21

I life in Co Offaly. I went shopping in my local town for fuel and food today.

At least, I tried to. Nearly every shop or supplier I went to was out of stock of what I wanted to buy. When I enquired when it would be available, each time I was told that the snow was bad in "The North" and deliveries were delayed.

Obviously the price differential of many goods, tax regulations and open border are making for good commerce.

Do most people in business not secretly hope things won't change, regardless of their religious affiliation?

DarkyHughes

I know Fianna Fail & Fine Gail don't want reunification as it was leave political power in the hands of Sinn Fein & I know business men don't want that.

Godge

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I know Fianna Fail & Fine Gail don't want reunification as it was lead political power in the hands of Sinn Fein & I know business men don't want that.

I would say 80% of the people on this island don't want unification anytime this side of 2050 because of the cost to taxpayers.

Karl Stein

Godge wrote: »

I would say 80% of the people on this island don't want unification anytime this side of 2050 because of the cost to taxpayers.

I think your bitter hatred of the idea has clouded your ability to make estimates. According to an Irish Times poll (cited by irishcentral.com) presumably taken in the south:

those against a united Ireland has shrunk to just 8 per cent from more than double that.

And that's before a transition plan or anything has been discussed to those ends.

DarkyHughes

Godge wrote: »

I would say 80% of the people on this island don't want unification anytime this side of 2050 because of the cost to taxpayers.

80%? It's more like 40 - 45% in recent polls I've seen.

I think a lot of people on this island would still like a peaceful unification aslong as it was manageable, it's just not as big an issue as it used to be since the GFA gave everyone a little bit of something and most people are content with that. But my original point was I can't see Fine Gael or Fianna Fail's vote increasing because of unification as there seen by most nationalist/republicans in the North as treacherous. Maybe Fine Gaels right-wing tendencies & hatred of Irish Republicanism might appeal to some hardline loyalists. A lot of people in the South seem to like the SDLP maybe it would give them a boost.

katydid

Nomis21 wrote: »

I life in Co Offaly. I went shopping in my local town for fuel and food today.

At least, I tried to. Nearly every shop or supplier I went to was out of stock of what I wanted to buy. When I enquired when it would be available, each time I was told that the snow was bad in "The North" and deliveries were delayed.

Obviously the price differential of many goods, tax regulations and open border are making for good commerce.

Do most people in business not secretly hope things won't change, regardless of their religious affiliation?

What would religious affiliation have to do with it, anyway?

Redbishop

Nomis21 wrote: »

I life in Co Offaly. I went shopping in my local town for fuel and food today.

At least, I tried to. Nearly every shop or supplier I went to was out of stock of what I wanted to buy. When I enquired when it would be available, each time I was told that the snow was bad in "The North" and deliveries were delayed.

Obviously the price differential of many goods, tax regulations and open border are making for good commerce.

Do most people in business not secretly hope things won't change, regardless of their religious affiliation?

I dont know what you were looking to buy, maybe if you made that clear we might know what you are talking about. In my locality there were no shops out of stock and deliveries were as normal. All the main roads remained open as far as I know.

Unless you are trying to say that all the shops in your area only deal in fuel and goods supplied from Northern Ireland

joebloggs32

Redbishop wrote: »

I dont know what you were looking to buy, maybe if you made that clear we might know what you are talking about. In my locality there were no shops out of stock and deliveries were as normal. All the main roads remained open as far as I know.

Unless you are trying to say that all the shops in your area only deal in fuel and goods supplied from Northern Ireland

Probably bord na Mona briquettes. There is a big scam with fuel merchants from the north travelling down with trucks full of cheap booze and offloading along the way to shopsd on their journey to the briquette factory. They then load up with briquettes supposedly for export to the north, thus avoiding some of the taxes normally charged, and then flog the whole lot on the way back up.
I know one shop not more than 10 minutes drive from the factory that gets its briquettes delivered by a northern reg truck.

Redbishop

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Probably bord na Mona briquettes. There is a big scam with fuel merchants from the north travelling down with trucks full of cheap booze and offloading along the way to shopsd on their journey to the briquette factory. They then load up with briquettes supposedly for export to the north, thus avoiding some of the taxes normally charged, and then flog the whole lot on the way back up.
I know one shop not more than 10 minutes drive from the factory that gets its briquettes delivered by a northern reg truck.

Ok so its a smuggling issue, thanks for that, wasnt sure by the way he worded it what he was on about.

Redbishop

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I know Fianna Fail & Fine Gail don't want reunification as it was leave political power in the hands of Sinn Fein & I know business men don't want that.

"Taoiseach Enda Kenny told the Dáíl last October that there were other issues that needed to be prioritised over any referendum but predicted in a separate event that same month that the North and south would eventually be united."
http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland-economy-sinn-fein-pearse-doherty-970262-Jun2013/


I wouldnt be against it myself in principle but it would need great consideration, not something to be rushed in to.


There is a message here about Voodoo economics I include for you Deja
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/united-ireland-978055-Jul2013/

hfallada

Unification doesnt make economic sense. The likes of IDA will have to be seen to give jobs to NI, like West Germany were encouraged to get foreign companies to locate in the East. Although a fair amount of West Germany badly needed jobs eg Duisburg.

Will people in NI be happy with getting HSE healthcare rather than NHS? Will they happily pay for the GP and medicine like people in the south? I highly doubt it. Will NI be happy when the UK pulls a lot of their Governmental departments out of NI, as its no longer part of the uk?

North Ireland is better off in the UK. They receive a ton of money from the UK, which Ireland cant afford to give them. The republic cant give NI a ton of pseudo jobs like UK gives them.

maxwell smart

hfallada wrote: »

Unification doesnt make economic sense. The likes of IDA will have to be seen to give jobs to NI, like West Germany were encouraged to get foreign companies to locate in the East. Although a fair amount of West Germany badly needed jobs eg Duisburg.

Will people in NI be happy with getting HSE healthcare rather than NHS? Will they happily pay for the GP and medicine like people in the south? I highly doubt it. Will NI be happy when the UK pulls a lot of their Governmental departments out of NI, as its no longer part of the uk?

North Ireland is better off in the UK. They receive a ton of money from the UK, which Ireland cant afford to give them. The republic cant give NI a ton of pseudo jobs like UK gives them.

Exactly.

Polls tell you nothing. People might very well like the 'idea' of unification, but the cold hard reality of it would be something very different. Taxes in the South and North would have to rise substantially to cover the cost of it.

Once people get their heads around that, I think people's view on unification would be very very different.

smcgiff

hfallada wrote: »

The republic cant give NI a ton of pseudo jobs like UK gives them.

While there were terrorists/criminal gangs using the excuse of British occupation to exist the UK needed to prop up NI or appear weak or even ridiculous.

Now that they are not threatened they can disentangle. The process has already started. Funding is being cut and will continue further.

Another example of distancing is the proposed TV debates that include British parties as small as the greens or as regional as the SNP or Plaid Cmyru, but no NI party which is very telling. The DUP has more MPs than some of the others put together and are raging.

The Diabolical Monocle

I see they're devolving corp tax powers to Stormont.



http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/osborne-set-to-give-northern-ireland-corporation-tax-powers-from-2017-30893133.html

THE UK government has published a bill allowing for corporation tax powers to be devolved to Northern Ireland from April 2017.

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It is hoped the law will be passed before the British general election in May. About 34,000 businesses north of the border, including 26,500 SMEs, will benefit from the cut.

It is designed to allow the six counties to better compete with the 12.5pc corporation tax in the Republic, compared to the 21pc currently being levied.

UK ministers said the change could be "transformative" for an economy which, largely reflecting the legacy of the Troubles, has for years been over-dependent on the state.

The legislation was tabled in Westminster yesterday.

Chancellor George Osborne said there has been a strong case for devolving corporation tax setting powers to Stormont.

Richard

smcgiff wrote: »

While there were terrorists/criminal gangs using the excuse of British occupation to exist the UK needed to prop up NI or appear weak or even ridiculous.

Occupation?

Another example of distancing is the proposed TV debates that include British parties as small as the greens or as regional as the SNP or Plaid Cmyru, but no NI party which is very telling. The DUP has more MPs than some of the others put together and are raging.

I think it's silly to have Scottish or Welsh-only parties but you could argue that of the main UK parties, only the Conservatives and UKIP actually stand there and aren't likely to get any MPs so the NI parties aren't competing with them, only each other.

NI is distanced from England, not getting any more distanced though. Unlike Scotland.

smcgiff

Richard wrote: »

Occupation?

Read the sentence again, Richard.

It is of course a matter of opinion as to whether NI is getting more distant from the UK. I think the Public Sector in NI will reduce over time.

Richard

smcgiff wrote: »

Read the sentence again, Richard.

I have.

It is of course a matter of opinion as to whether NI is getting more distant from the UK. I think the Public Sector in NI will reduce over time.

I'd agree with that. It may also be that NI won't be reliant on the UK treasury at some point in the future on the way that it is now.

smcgiff

Richard wrote: »

I have.

And what do you think it means, I don't understand what you are questioning?

Richard

smcgiff wrote: »

And what do you think it means, I don't understand what you are questioning?

I was querying your use of the term "British occupation". It wasn't clear whether you were saying NI was "occupied by Britain" or were saying that that's what terrorists would say.

The Golden Miller

Richard wrote: »

I was querying your use of the term "British occupation". It wasn't clear whether you were saying NI was "occupied by Britain" or were saying that that's what terrorists would say.

I think you know exactly what he is referring to. Await the predictable verbal diarrhoea about the north being a democratic majority....

Godge

Karl Stein wrote: »

I think your bitter hatred of the idea has clouded your ability to make estimates. According to an Irish Times poll (cited by irishcentral.com) presumably taken in the south:



And that's before a transition plan or anything has been discussed to those ends.

DarkyHughes wrote: »

80%? It's more like 40 - 45% in recent polls I've seen.

I think a lot of people on this island would still like a peaceful unification aslong as it was manageable, it's just not as big an issue as it used to be since the GFA gave everyone a little bit of something and most people are content with that. But my original point was I can't see Fine Gael or Fianna Fail's vote increasing because of unification as there seen by most nationalist/republicans in the North as treacherous. Maybe Fine Gaels right-wing tendencies & hatred of Irish Republicanism might appeal to some hardline loyalists. A lot of people in the South seem to like the SDLP maybe it would give them a boost.

You two are looking at the wrong part of the polls.

There is always plenty of support for a united Ireland at some time in the unknown future. All part of the romantic dream.

The support for a united Ireland tomorrow is negligible.

Richard

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I think you know exactly what he is referring to. Await the predictable verbal diarrhoea about the north being a democratic majority....

Actually, I'm genuinely lost here...

Karl Stein

Godge wrote: »

There is always plenty of support for a united Ireland at some time in the unknown future.

How bizarre. Of course it would be in the future - it would hardly be in the past now would it?

Regardless of your overanxious hatred of the idea and your attempt to project it onto the the rest of the public:

those against a united Ireland has shrunk to just 8 per cent from more than double that.

irishcentral.com

Godge

Karl Stein wrote: »

How bizarre. Of course it would be in the future - it would hardly be in the past now would it?

Regardless of your overanxious hatred of the idea and your attempt to project it onto the the rest of the public:

I don't HATE the idea of a United Ireland.

I am in favour of a united Ireland provided that there is no extra burden on the Southern taxpayers, we are not dependant on British money and that there is a majority of the Unionist community in favour of it.

That makes me part of the 92% but also unlikely to vote yes in any referendum this side of 2100.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

All part of the romantic dream.

Whose 'romantic' dream for NI has been shattered? Unionists - the bigoted sectarian statelet has been dismantled and their 'dream' has turned to a nightmare. Witness their inability to come to terms with the new realities.
The only dream still possible and still on course is unification.

bilston

smcgiff wrote: »

Now that they are not threatened they can disentangle. The process has already started. Funding is being cut and will continue further.

The reduced block grant to Stormont has nothing to do with Westminster trying to distance themselves from Northern Ireland and everything to do with government spending cuts across the board. It's been going on since 2010 and will likely continue for another four years irrespective of who wins the UK general election in May.

bilston

Happyman42 wrote: »

Whose 'romantic' dream for NI has been shattered? Unionists - the bigoted sectarian statelet has been dismantled and their 'dream' has turned to a nightmare. Witness their inability to come to terms with the new realities.
The only dream still possible and still on course is unification.

Ah you sure know how to persuade Unionists to.come round to your way of thinking with sweettalk like that...

Happyman42

bilston wrote: »

Ah you sure know how to persuade Unionists to.come round to your way of thinking with sweettalk like that...

I have no intention of ever trying to persuade anybody with Godge's mindset into a civilised republic. The bigots are a vocal but defeated and disappearing minority now.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have no intention of ever trying to persuade anybody with Godge's mindset into a civilised republic. The bigots are a vocal but defeated and disappearing minority now.

I am already living in a civilised republic and happy to be here. Don't want the extra cost of a united Ireland until the North can pay for itself, and the vast majority want to join us. Fairly simple equation, it means that all the SF supporters can go away and figure out how to make it work financially and show their unionist brethern why it is a good idea, in the meantime, leave me out of it until the numbers add up.

Karl Stein

bilston wrote: »

Ah you sure know how to persuade Unionists to.come round to your way of thinking with sweettalk like that...

Godge wrote: »

show their unionist brethern why it is a good idea

I see some people are still living in the past. It won't require a Unionist majority for the gears of a UI to begin to turn just a regular ol' majority.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

I am already living in a civilised republic and happy to be here. Don't want the extra cost of a united Ireland until the North can pay for itself, and the vast majority want to join us. Fairly simple equation, it means that all the SF supporters can go away and figure out how to make it work financially and show their unionist brethern why it is a good idea, in the meantime, leave me out of it until the numbers add up.

When was there a debate and vote on unity? Correct, there hasn't been one, so your assertion is just an opinion.
In my opinion we cannot call ourselves 'civilised' until we deal with the issues arising from the fact that we turned our backs on the whole notion of a republic with integrity and a huge swathe of fellow Irish men, women and children as well.
There are some (gaining in influence and power) who wish to put that right, I see nothing that will deny them that debate and vote.

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

When was there a debate and vote on unity? Correct, there hasn't been one, so your assertion is just an opinion.
In my opinion we cannot call ourselves 'civilised' until we deal with the issues arising from the fact that we turned our backs on the whole notion of a republic with integrity and a huge swathe of fellow Irish men, women and children as well.
There are some (gaining in influence and power) who wish to put that right, I see nothing that will deny them that debate and vote.

Every time we vote for our government, we are recognising the validity of this state.

katydid

Karl Stein wrote: »

How bizarre. Of course it would be in the future - it would hardly be in the past now would it?

He said "some time in the unknown future". Not the same as next week.

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

Every time we vote for our government, we are recognising the validity of this state.

No, we are electing a government. The question of 'unity' has never been put to the Irish people on this island.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

Whose 'romantic' dream for NI has been shattered? Unionists - the bigoted sectarian statelet has been dismantled and their 'dream' has turned to a nightmare. Witness their inability to come to terms with the new realities.
The only dream still possible and still on course is unification.

This is funny.

The reality is that Northern Ireland is going to remain part of the UK for the rest of my lifetime and my childrens' lifetime too at the very least.

The romantic dream of a united Ireland is more likely to be overtaken by the reality of a united Europe than for the romantic dream to become a reality.

I don't know why some people cling to outdated and ancient concepts of nationality, identity and territory as having to be always brought together.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

This is funny.

The reality is that Northern Ireland is going to remain part of the UK for the rest of my lifetime and my childrens' lifetime too at the very least.

The romantic dream of a united Ireland is more likely to be overtaken by the reality of a united Europe than for the romantic dream to become a reality.

I don't know why some people cling to outdated and ancient concepts of nationality, identity and territory as having to be always brought together.

The point is, there is nothing 'romantic' about it. It will be done because it has always been the practical thing to do. Yes it will be initially difficult, but there is much more to be gained from unity for everyone. And it is more than a dream it is a credible aspiration whose day is coming, and with the rise of SF that day may come sooner than you 'think' (or is that 'FEAR'?)
The dream of 'a Protestant state for a protestant people' has been well and truly shattered though and rightly so.

DarkyHughes

Redbishop wrote: »

"Taoiseach Enda Kenny told the Dáíl last October that there were other issues that needed to be prioritised over any referendum but predicted in a separate event that same month that the North and south would eventually be united."
http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland-economy-sinn-fein-pearse-doherty-970262-Jun2013/


I wouldnt be against it myself in principle but it would need great consideration, not something to be rushed in to.


There is a message here about Voodoo economics I include for you Deja
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/united-ireland-978055-Jul2013/

Yeah they say that but I don't think they really mean it.

Yea I agree I would like to see it but don't it's something that should be rushed into.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

The point is, there is nothing 'romantic' about it. It will be done because it has always been the practical thing to do. Yes it will be initially difficult, but there is much more to be gained from unity for everyone. And it is more than a dream it is a credible aspiration whose day is coming, and with the rise of SF that day may come sooner than you 'think' (or is that 'FEAR'?)
The dream of 'a Protestant state for a protestant people' has been well and truly shattered though and rightly so.

There is no practicality to it at all.

At the moment there is peace because there is a stable equilibrium between the two sides at the moment.

Any attempt to radically change that equilibrium would risk a return to civil disobedience or violence. Neither government wants that so neither government will risk the instability of a unity poll even though they both know it would be heavily defeated. SF will continue to make noises about how good a united Ireland would be and how they are pushing for a referendum. Their electorate will swallow this wholeheartedly but nothing will change.

As for fearing the rise of SF, they have already peaked in the South and are on the way back down.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

There is no practicality to it at all.

The only thing you have against it is fear of losing or been seen to lose. Of course there will be teething issues but once overcome it would be the best for everyoe to be a unified island.

At the moment there is peace because there is a stable equilibrium between the two sides at the moment.

This, turn a blind eye philosophy of partitionists won't hold. Alll the main players say the peace is brittle and is stagnating. That is what we should be scared of.

As for fearing the rise of SF, they have already peaked in the South and are on the way back down.

I visualise you on your knees with your eyes tight shut and your hands over your ears....why is that?

Redbishop

Happyman42 wrote: »

"The only thing you have against it is fear of losing or been seen to lose. Of course there will be teething issues but once overcome it would be the best for everyoe to be a unified island."

In your opinion maybe, but why would it be best for everyone?


"This, turn a blind eye philosophy of partitionists won't hold. Alll the main players say the peace is brittle and is stagnating. That is what we should be scared of."

Are you saying then that it is either unite or back to the violence until we do?




I visualise you on your knees with your eyes tight shut and your hands over your ears....why is that?

No comment on that one

bilston

Karl Stein wrote: »

I see some people are still living in the past. It won't require a Unionist majority for the gears of a UI to begin to turn just a regular ol' majority.

To be honest if the opinion polls I've been reading over the past 5 years are to be believed there isn't even a majority of Nationalist voters in Northern Ireland who want a United Ireland.

Godge

bilston wrote: »

To be honest if the opinion polls I've been reading over the past 5 years are to be believed there isn't even a majority of Nationalist voters in Northern Ireland who want a United Ireland.

You have been reading them correctly.

However, in recent times they added a question as to whether you would support a United Ireland eventually if certain conditions were met. Given the ambiguous nature of the question, support shot up.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

The only thing you have against it is fear of losing or been seen to lose. Of course there will be teething issues but once overcome it would be the best for everyoe to be a unified island.

As a Southern taxpayer I cannot see how it would be anyway good for me. Happy to remain as I am without the added burden of the North.

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

The only thing you have against it is fear of losing or been seen to lose. Of course there will be teething issues but once overcome it would be the best for everyoe to be a unified island.

)

How would it be best for me as a citizen of the Republic of Ireland? In what way would adding a bunch of disgruntled unionists and bigots from both communities to our society be best for us?

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

How would it be best for me as a citizen of the Republic of Ireland? In what way would adding a bunch of disgruntled unionists and bigots from both communities to our society be best for us?

We are constantly being told that austerity will be good for us in x amount of years. Unification, while it might be expensive will bring greater prosperity to the island as a whole because a border is and has been a hindrance to that since it was created.
As regards security and a return to violence...if it is done correctly and we truly set up a republic (not the sham we have now) then it need not descend into conflict. I think the British being honest players would be a huge factor in that and I judge the mood there to be in favour of Irish unificatiom.

Redbishop

Happyman42 wrote: »

We are constantly being told that austerity will be good for us in x amount of years. Unification, while it might be expensive will bring greater prosperity to the island as a whole because a border is and has been a hindrance to that since it was created.
As regards security and a return to violence...if it is done correctly and we truly set up a republic (not the sham we have now) then it need not descend into conflict. I think the British being honest players would be a huge factor in that and I judge the mood there to be in favour of Irish unificatiom.

To me that sounds like a threat of violence if it is not done to suit you and your agenda. What political entity are you speaking for or at least think you are speaking for or is it from your own mind.
I see Mr McGuiness is talking it up too.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

We are constantly being told that austerity will be good for us in x amount of years. Unification, while it might be expensive will bring greater prosperity to the island as a whole because a border is and has been a hindrance to that since it was created.
As regards security and a return to violence...if it is done correctly and we truly set up a republic (not the sham we have now) then it need not descend into conflict. I think the British being honest players would be a huge factor in that and I judge the mood there to be in favour of Irish unificatiom.

That is all motherhood and apple pie and based on unrealistic assumptions.

It took Germany twenty years to recover from unification, we don't have an economy as strong as that. I am not prepared to have thirty years of austerity just to make some angry republicans in the North happy.

Unification is a silly dream.

smcgiff

Godge wrote: »

That is all motherhood and apple pie and based on unrealistic assumptions.

It took Germany twenty years to recover from unification, we don't have an economy as strong as that. I am not prepared to have thirty years of austerity just to make some angry republicans in the North happy.

Unification is a silly dream.

Are you comparing NI to a communist wretch of a country :pac:

Happyman42

Redbishop wrote: »

To me that sounds like a threat of violence if it is not done to suit you and your agenda. .

How does it sound like a 'threat'?
Are we allowed to express an opinion on how we see things going without being accused of making 'threats'. Pitiful comment tbh.

Happyman42

smcgiff wrote: »

Are you comparing NI to a communist wretch of a country :pac:

So, because 'I'm alright Jack' the rest of ye can sling yer hook?
Sounds like the partitionists charter.

AnotherYear

Godge wrote: »

As a Southern taxpayer I cannot see how it would be anyway good for me. Happy to remain as I am without the added burden of the North.

Ah. I often feel sorry for the people in the North who identify as Irish. Being seen as not properly/really Irish by a certain % of those south of the border. I saw it so much when I was travelling abroad.

I wouldn't have a problem paying extra tax if it meant my fellow countrymen & women could reunify with the rest of us. A united country is a stronger country in the long run.

Remember 100 years ago all of Ireland was in the UK. The North still is. I wonder if Munster or leinster was in the North position would the demographic who identify as Irish be forgotten about as easily