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Ruairí Quinn: Teachers don't appreciate gravity of economic crisis

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    #62
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    What I am dead against is the constant cutting of pay, pension and perks for new entrants into the PS, so that the ones currently in employment and in particular the higher up, can go on living in cloud cuckoo land!


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    #63
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    The problem isnt the Unions or the teachers, its the government and to be honest our government isnt too differant from the yellow belly others who are afraid of their lives of strikes and facing down these vested interest groups. .

    If you allow a child to think that they can do what they want for years you cant be surprised when they start throwing their toys out of the pram when you finally start trying to reel them in.

    We need a supernanny government thats willing to do whatever it takes to put manners on their employees. Why ? Because its doing everybody elses head in listening to the whining of the vested few that expect the rest of us to prop up their remuneration.

    They ignore questions on job protection or anything positive and act like they are the only victims in the countrys collapse. we are all victims and most of us dont have a choice - welfare, getting a job.

    I dont believe that the government should continue discussing cuts with any department on the public payrole that has shown resistance to change. These vested groups do not understand how good they have it (yes good) in these austere times. They really and truely dont understand what is going on or what the cost is to everybody else (emotionally and financially).

    Everybody has a sorry tale to tell, but for most of us, we dont have a bankrupt "sugar daddy" to fall back on.

    The government has to get aggresive with the unions for the good of the country. Either that or make everybody else pay to prop up the current costs of a questionably efficient public/civil service.


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    #64
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    liammur wrote: »
    Can anybody tell me what a primary princial teacher does if they don't teach in the classroom ?

    This is the type of waste that needs to be tackled.

    why don't managers in a factory do all the assembly work too???

    by the way, the majority of principals in primary schools DO teach.
    Idiot.


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    #65
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Do tell.

    my school is run on a showstring budget.
    only for fundraising by the parents association we'd barely be able to afford to pay the basic bills.

    would love to know where the waste is located??

    In my experience, it is the department of education and all the other associated departments and organisation is where the waste really is


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    #66
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    spurious wrote: »
    Those figures are ludicrous. There are 750 second level schools in the country, less than 30 of them large enough to have Principals or Deputy Principals on such huge allowances. How does the Examiner make that into 1500 teachers?

    Unbelievable crap.

    What are your figures then? If you question the amounts quoted then you must have a more up to date figure...


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    #67
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    my school is run on a showstring budget.
    only for fundraising by the parents association we'd barely be able to afford to pay the basic bills.

    would love to know where the waste is located??

    In my experience, it is the department of education and all the other associated departments and organisation is where the waste really is
    It seems to be clear even if the quoted figures are high that the waste is in bloated salaries. So whilst parents associations raise money with difficulties to keep the schools going the teachers are taking home salaries of up to 50k (according to figures being discussed).


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    #68
    macbrada
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭macbrada


    Sick pay alert for 1,000 teachers who took 90-260 days off

    MORE than 1,000 teachers were warned last year that their pay was at risk of being withdrawn if they took too many sick days.

    These primary and secondary school teachers had been absent for between 90 days and 260 days in the past four years. They were warned that if their level of absences exceeded 365 days in a four-year period, their salary payments would be halted.

    "In the event of your continued absence, your entitlement to salary will expire on (specified date)," the letters said.

    It means that teachers out sick for more than 260 days in four years have missed the equivalent of at least an entire school year in the period -- given that the primary school year lasts 183 days, while secondary schools open for 167 days.
    .
    .http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sick-pay-alert-for-1000-teachers-who-took-90260-days-off-3046664.html


    An example of the disgraceful abuse within the public 'service' which I believe is rampant in all sectors not just education.....

    The solution is to reward the workers and remove rather than punish the dossers...yet again the obstacle is the unions who claim all members are hard workers. When will both non union and union members tell the union bosses to go away and let people represent themselves through their own performance


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    #69
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    It seems to be clear even if the quoted figures are high that the waste is in bloated salaries. So whilst parents associations raise money with difficulties to keep the schools going the teachers are taking home salaries of up to 50k (according to figures being discussed).

    Replace with over


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    #70
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Dotsie~tmp wrote: »
    She would cut my f*cking bollox off if it got back. No boat rockers allowed.
    So you can make wild claims of waste and not back it up?


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    #71
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    macbrada wrote: »
    Sick pay alert for 1,000 teachers who took 90-260 days off

    MORE than 1,000 teachers were warned last year that their pay was at risk of being withdrawn if they took too many sick days.

    These primary and secondary school teachers had been absent for between 90 days and 260 days in the past four years. They were warned that if their level of absences exceeded 365 days in a four-year period, their salary payments would be halted.

    "In the event of your continued absence, your entitlement to salary will expire on (specified date)," the letters said.

    It means that teachers out sick for more than 260 days in four years have missed the equivalent of at least an entire school year in the period -- given that the primary school year lasts 183 days, while secondary schools open for 167 days.
    .
    .http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sick-pay-alert-for-1000-teachers-who-took-90260-days-off-3046664.html


    An example of the disgraceful abuse within the public 'service' which I believe is rampant in all sectors not just education.....

    The solution is to reward the workers and remove rather than punish the dossers...yet again the obstacle is the unions who claim all members are hard workers. When will both non union and union members tell the union bosses to go away and let people represent themselves through their own performance
    One of my friends is one of "those" teachers,has been battling breast cancer.


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    #72
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,647 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Celticfire wrote: »
    How much scrutiny is there of lazy parents I wonder? It's all well and good to blame teachers for little Johnny "Tiger" Cub's failings at school as that's the easy option. At secondary level it's up to students to "study" what was taught in school that day.

    How many parents are happy to take the easy approach and let Johnny spend all his time out of school texting, Facebooking, playing Call Of Duty or Minecraft?

    Parents are supposed to parent also. Give a teen the choice between 2 hours of study or 5 hours of Minecraft and see which one wins out.
    Sure but how do you factor that into the issue of education cost? This aside from the issue that plenty of games hold education and skill-building values. Minecraft as you exemplify, I could argue promotes logical thinking, problem solving, and creativity. I think it's a bit of a cop out though to blame the parents, there are still glaring facts about the Irish education that dont simply add up to that. Too much money is paid out to the system to merely blame the parents.


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    #73
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,647 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    One of my friends is one of "those" teachers,has been battling breast cancer.
    Surely there is a differentiation between a Sick Day and Fair Medical Leave (example).

    I mean if not your friend should be treated accordingly, but I doubt thats the case for everyone in that tally. I'm willing to speculate that since there is no repercussion of lost pay for their sick days (true? false?) that they really don't mind taking days off like they were candy. I mean, if you had a salary job with no limit on sick days, wouldn't you?


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    #74
    femur61
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Dirk Gently wrote: »
    Not if they've been reading this forum. Someone keeps mentioning them every single day.

    Yes they are unaware and I do speak from personal experience.


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    #75
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    How many hours a week are (permanent)secondary teachers contracted for ( teaching time), per week.. And how many hours do they do on average....
    I remember hearing years ago that contract was aprox 23 hrs, but most taught 18 to 21 hrs.... This may well have changed... If not it would well be a relatively painless way of uping productivity ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #76
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Overheal wrote: »
    Surely there is a differentiation between a Sick Day and Fair Medical Leave (example).

    I mean if not your friend should be treated accordingly, but I doubt thats the case for everyone in that tally. I'm willing to speculate that since there is no repercussion of lost pay for their sick days (true? false?) that they really don't mind taking days off like they were candy. I mean, if you had a salary job with no limit on sick days, wouldn't you?[/QUOTE]

    No.


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    #77
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    newstalk breakfast did a piece on the teachers this morning, they interviewed some student teachers, once of whom said something along the lines that their students union gave them figures that they'd be earning 11k less as new teaching entrants which works out at 420 quid a week (god help her future students when it comes to learning maths)

    Colm O'Rourke was interviewed and was a voice of wisdom, basically saying as a teacher and principal he'd rather have more teachers earning less than less teachers earning more which is what the unions are interested in. Budgets are being cut and the reality needs to sink in.

    my regard for O'Rourke shot up, good to see the kids education being put ahead of salaries.

    and yes, before the usual responses of 'but we didnt cause the recession' we all are fully aware teachers didnt cause the recession, however their salaries increased significanty during the boom and need to be reduced.


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    #78
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    Dont listen to ORourke. He is a bust property developer. No wonder he wants others to pick up the tab.


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    #79
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    however their salaries increased significanty during the boom and need to be reduced.

    There salaries have already been reduced and by more than the general fall in salaries in the economy. General salaries are not falling at present.


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    #80
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    bamboozle wrote: »
    and yes, before the usual responses of 'but we didnt cause the recession' we all are fully aware teachers didnt cause the recession

    Given the fact that a large number of Irish children are functionally illiterate and a large number of Irish adults can't count or figure out that having as much/more debt than you can support is a bad thing I'd argue that point.

    In their failures they're as culpable for the recession as the bankers, builders and borrowers they failed to adequately teach.


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    #81
    Fear_an_tarbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Fear_an_tarbh


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Per hour worked teaching must be the best paid job in the country

    Yep, taking home under 30k for first 10 or 15 years if you're lucky :rolleyes:
    Tipp Man wrote: »
    22 hours a week for what 33 or 34 weeks - an absolute joke


    The workload is closer to 50 hours a week.


    Any other misconceptions you'd like to peddle?


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    #82
    beeftotheheels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »
    The workload is closer to 50 hours a week.

    Perhaps for the very dedicated teachers who spend hours prepping for class and covering extra curricular activities (and we know they exist but they're a minority). I had two such teachers during my education, and witnessed one other. But that's 2 out of 30 odd.

    For the vast majority it is not a 50 hour week. It is a 20 odd hour week at secondary, a bit more at primary, with exceptionally long holidays. And I type this as a teacher's daughter so I can state categorically that my Dad worked an 18 hour week towards the end because the curriculum hadn't changed so he didn't need to prep for class, he taught the same maths/ science day in day out.

    He probably did some prep work when he was new to it, but he certainly didn't towards the end and he was actually a good teacher, one of the ones who cared, but not one of the ones who did extra curricular work.

    He'd have loved to see the syllabus change, to actually have to do some work. But it didn't so he didn't.


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    #83
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    ardmacha wrote: »
    There salaries have already been reduced and by more than the general fall in salaries in the economy. General salaries are not falling at present.



    Government : "Well you see, the state employees dont really think its fair that they should have to take a paycut just because the state is bankrupt and sure afterall not everybody is on the end of paycuts, many people in the private sector lost their jobs, but there are many of them who havent had the same kind of paycuts our employees are worrying about" . .


    EU/IMF : "Sure why didnt you say so, when you put it like that it would be ludicrous to try to cut down one of your biggest costs. You are better off increasing taxation for everybody, savaging social welfare (sure arent they all spongers!) and slashing the state Pension. Dont worry about the social ramifications or the impact on the economy, once the state employees are looked after, we are sure everything will work out fine".


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    #84
    gagiteebo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 524 ✭✭✭gagiteebo


    The misconceptions about teachers and teaching on this thread and the many others that have sprouted up recently are just mind boggling. Although in one respect I cannot blame people for their reactions, many of them are without fact and are based on hearsay and are being spoonfed absolute crap by the media.

    I've been teaching in secondary schools for 6 years. No I don't have the 'cushy' job that everyone seems to think. I don't have full hours - that is not just reserved for new entrants. I am barely scraping by, I'm earning nowhere near 100k (how sensationalist, yeah open your thread with that claim and of course you are going to get people riled up), I don't drive a fancy car, ha it's actually falling to pieces at the minute but I can't afford to bring it to the mechanic. Yes, I know many people are in the same position for a myriad of other reasons but no other profession gets the bashing we are getting.

    My work day doesn't end at 4, I'm often in school until 6 or after. No we can't take as many sick days as we want as someone ignorantly pointed out. I get 5 sick days in a year then I'm docked pay. Summer holidays, teacher bashers big argument, I work during the summer holidays and not to pay for fancy holidays and such but to pay for things like food and bills.

    Yes there are bad teachers, there are bad workers in every profession, it is not confined to just teaching.

    Why did I go into teaching then you ask? Well I love my subjects, I love young people and working with them and naively thought I would be making a difference and be in a respectable profession. What a joke, I have lost count of how many times someone will say 'Oh well for ya', 'Nice cushy job' etc when I tell them what I do. Anyone could have become a teacher, it's not selective. There is no respect for teachers anymore and that is sad because anyone I know works their ass off. It wasn't for the salary if 'over 100k' or the summer holidays.

    I am not looking for sympathy or anything close, I just think it's about time people stopped tarring us all with the same brush.


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    #85
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #86
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    ardmacha wrote: »
    There salaries have already been reduced and by more than the general fall in salaries in the economy. General salaries are not falling at present.

    i take it you're not including the salaries that have disappeared from the economy over the last 4 years?

    aside from that, the govt needs to balance its books, there's a shortfall of billions between tax receipts and payments (excluding bail out of bank bonds) this gap needs to be closed.


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    #87
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    Dont listen to ORourke. He is a bust property developer. No wonder he wants others to pick up the tab.

    bewildering comment, in reality there is a budget for the dept of education, this budget accounts for over 7% of govt expenditure,

    O'Rourke's position is should we

    A: focus on improving educational needs of our children by having more teachers paid less money

    B: ignore our childrens educational needs by paying less teachers more.

    its simple really.


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    #88
    femur61
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    bamboozle wrote: »
    i take it you're not including the salaries that have disappeared from the economy over the last 4 years?

    aside from that, the govt needs to balance its books, there's a shortfall of billions between tax receipts and payments (excluding bail out of bank bonds) this gap needs to be closed.

    Thats what I don't understand I've already posted my thoughts on this but teachers and everyone in the public sector don't seem to understand if the taxes aren't coming in then there is going to be shortfall. Nobody in the public sector creates wealth my taxes paid their wages, paid past tense as self explanatory why I'm at the computer this time of the morning. Unfortunately I was self employed so I'm not eligible for SW even though I was an employer.


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    #89
    gagiteebo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 524 ✭✭✭gagiteebo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    The thing is I'm not a 'new' teacher, I've been teaching for 6, going on 7 years, in that time I've lived in about 5 different counties, not by choice but if I wanted a job that's what I had to do.

    It's only going to be worse for new entrants. That's all very well about senior colleagues etc but the cuts in allowances etc etc are not going to affect them, they are on the road to retirement. They are going to affect me and the people coming after me. This is the reality. My senior colleagues are on nice saleries I won't dispute that, but they'll be gone soon and we'll be left to deal with the mess.


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    #90
    beeftotheheels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    gagiteebo wrote: »
    The thing is I'm not a 'new' teacher, I've been teaching for 6, going on 7 years, in that time I've lived in about 5 different counties, not by choice but if I wanted a job that's what I had to do.

    It's only going to be worse for new entrants. That's all very well about senior colleagues etc but the cuts in allowances etc etc are not going to affect them, they are on the road to retirement. They are going to affect me and the people coming after me. This is the reality. My senior colleagues are on nice saleries I won't dispute that, but they'll be gone soon and we'll be left to deal with the mess.

    But this is the point. Allowances for non teaching duties will predominantly be being paid to older teachers. Which then impacts on their pension entitlements.

    We need to scrap allowances which would then make funds available for younger, generally more enthusiastic and more motivated teachers.

    But so long as teachers act like a homogeneous group protecting the older, over paid and in many cases burnt out teachers who teach rote learning and don't want the boat to rock at all on their way to retirement, the risk will remain that people will tar all teachers with the same brush.

    Younger teachers should make the point that they want to rock the boat, they want to change the system and improve teaching standards. That they have the enthusiasm and are willing to put in the work which I don't doubt for one minute. But they also need to openly criticize the status quo which is overpaying the generally less productive teachers whilst underpaying the more productive contingent.

    It is not enough to say "they'll retire in a few years and then things will change". That's what's been said for so long up to this point and things have never changed.


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    #91
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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