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SDLP cost marriage-equality motion a victory in Fermanagh

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  • 04-09-2012 5:28pm
    #1
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭


    As most of you'll be aware, there are a number of marriage-equality motions in support of same-sex marriage doing the rounds throughout the councils island-wide.

    The motion was defeated by 8 votes in favour, 9 against - with the SDLP abstaining. Unionists opposed the motion. Nothing new there.
    “I wouldn’t be for it, it’s against my principles and I would vote against it if it came up in council. It’s scripturally wrong.”
    - DUP councillor Paul Robinson commenting on the topic.

    What I find curious however is the lack of backbone shown by SDLP councillors, who had the opportunity to pass this motion, like so many of the other councils around Ireland (including Dublin & Newry & Mourne recently) - but they refused to do so. Presumably, SDLP councillors in Newry & Mourne supported the motion, as it passed with 21 votes to 4 - so this seems completely inconsistent with other party members.

    I have contacted the SDLP requesting a comment on the issue.


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    #2
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    It would seem it was a SF motion, which may explain (but not excuse) their actions.
    http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/roundup/articles/2012/09/04/397904-sdlp-criticised-for-fencesitting-on-gay-marriage-motion/


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    #3
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Nodin wrote: »
    It would seem it was a SF motion, which may explain (but not excuse) their actions.
    http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/roundup/articles/2012/09/04/397904-sdlp-criticised-for-fencesitting-on-gay-marriage-motion/

    It's possible (which would be extremely childish), but their counterparts in Newry seem to have voted in support of the motion. So the lines do not appear consistent at all between party colleagues. One would have thought there is a party policy on this issue.

    Hopefully this will be clarified in reply.


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    #4
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    A council motion on this topic is not worth the paper it is written on tbh.


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    #5
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    A council motion on this topic is not worth the paper it is written on tbh.

    On what grounds? If consensus after consensus within councils island-wide demonstrates support for same-sex marriage, it will put pressure on the Government to put in motions for legislation or a referendum on the issue.


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    #6
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    i saw one counciller in sdlp said something about marriage equality you'd expect from an evangelical christian. will try and find it.

    i guess its just councillers. very surprised to be honest though. their mla mcdevitt was very supportive of homoequality when I heard him on the radio. tore a dup politician to shreds on the issue. I wonder do sdlp get much of a unionist vote in fermanagh


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    #7
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    On what grounds? If consensus after consensus within councils island-wide demonstrates support for same-sex marriage, it will put pressure on the Government to put in motions for legislation or a referendum on the issue.

    have to have cross community support for a bill to pass. likes of greg campbell & or tom elliot will never let gay marriage go through. they're basically a protestant version of the christian solidarity party on things like this

    good thing to do on principle though. alliance are going to put forward a motion in stormont for same sex marriage. they have to know it will fail but still worth doing.

    be very interesting to see if sdlp vote in favour or against on that


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    #8
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    dlofnep wrote: »
    On what grounds? If consensus after consensus within councils island-wide demonstrates support for same-sex marriage, it will put pressure on the Government to put in motions for legislation or a referendum on the issue.

    No it won't. It can be ignored by central government so they can court the liberal vote safe in the knowledge nothing will come of it unless there is an overwhelming strong shift in popular opinion.

    That way they can be seen to be trying to keep both sides happy. They should not be wasting time debating issues which they have no control over.


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    #9
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    i saw one counciller in sdlp said something about marriage equality you'd expect from an evangelical christian. will try and find it.

    i guess its just councillers. very surprised to be honest though. their mla mcdevitt was very supportive of homoequality when I heard him on the radio. tore a dup politician to shreds on the issue. I wonder do sdlp get much of a unionist vote in fermanagh

    I'd say they get a zero unionist vote in any county because they're not a unionist party.


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    #10
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    I'd say they get a zero unionist vote in any county because they're not a unionist party.

    some areas they get strategic & liberal unionist votes. how'd you think margaret ritchie is the mp for south down


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    #11
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    some areas they get strategic & liberal unionist votes. how'd you think margaret ritchie is the mp for south down

    You're not a real unionist unless you vote for a party that believes in maintaining the union. But I suppose the FPTP system produces quirks and tactical voting where voting SDLP is seen as the best way of keeping SF out, but I was thinking more of the assembly elections.

    A liberal unionist would still vote for a unionist party. You're applying a unionist label to a person who is soft on the union question and has more of an interest in liberal social issues which there is no unionist party that appeals to them.


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    #12
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    they probably don't want to support sf


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    #13
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,671 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Looks like my party of choice is now the DUP.


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    #14
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Manach wrote: »
    Looks like my party of choice is now the DUP.

    :confused: Because you think they're pro gay marriage?


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    #15
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Manach wrote: »
    Looks like my party of choice is now the DUP.

    do they contest many elections in cork


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    #16
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Manach wrote: »
    Looks like my party of choice is now the DUP.

    So blatant homophobia is enough to win you your vote?


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    #17
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    You're not a real unionist unless you vote for a party that believes in maintaining the union. But I suppose the FPTP system produces quirks and tactical voting where voting SDLP is seen as the best way of keeping SF out, but I was thinking more of the assembly elections.

    A liberal unionist would still vote for a unionist party. You're applying a unionist label to a person who is soft on the union question and has more of an interest in liberal social issues which there is no unionist party that appeals to them.

    so not zero unionist votes in any county then as you put it


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    #18
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,774 ✭✭✭SeanW


    dlofnep wrote: »
    So blatant homophobia is enough to win you your vote?
    He's an extremist Christian, blatant homophobia defines those people.


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    #19
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    I would hazard a guess and say this comes down more to the individual than party politics.

    It would be very difficult for a strict Christian, whatever their flavour of Christianity, to vote pro gay marriage.

    The forthcoming case in the ECHR will be interesting. Is religious freedom more important than homophobia.


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    #20
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I would hazard a guess and say this comes down more to the individual than party politics.

    Well, it was 3 SDLP members who abstained from voting. It is possible that they genuinely are not in favour of same-sex marriage. It is also possible that they abstained because it was a motion put forward by Sinn Féin. I'll await their reply for further clarification.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It would be very difficult for a strict Christian, whatever their flavour of Christianity, to vote pro gay marriage.

    I'm not sure about that. Civil marriage is not a religious ceremony. I know many 'strict' Christians who do not oppose same-sex civil marriage, but rather - just same-sex marriage within their church.


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    #21
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I would hazard a guess and say this comes down more to the individual than party politics.
    Well, it was 3 SDLP members who abstained from voting. It is possible that they genuinely are not in favour of same-sex marriage. It is also possible that they abstained because it was a motion put forward by Sinn Féin. I'll await their reply for further clarification.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It would be very difficult for a strict Christian, whatever their flavour of Christianity, to vote pro gay marriage.
    I'm not sure about that. Civil marriage is not a religious ceremony. I know many 'strict' Christians who do not oppose same-sex civil marriage, but rather - just same-sex marriage within their church.

    The ECHR case is being brought by a registrar and a sex therapist. Both of whom refuse to with gay people in any form.


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    #22
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    dlofnep wrote: »
    So blatant homophobia is enough to win you your vote?


    Being against same sex mariage doesn't make one homophobic.

    Some see same sex marriage as being progressive, others don't, some people view marriage as being between a man and a woman.

    Should we call nature homophobic given one needs an egg from a woman and a sperm from a man to create a baby.
    Is nature viewed as denying some new found right?

    A lot of people simply view marriage in the traditional sense and has nothing to do with homophobia, but to some this is blatant homophobia because it doesn't agree with their view.

    Calling someone homophobic over this is simply to use a stick to beat someone with even if it isn't the case.
    People are entitled to differing views.


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    #23
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Is same sex marriage now a national priority?

    Personally I don't agree with it


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    #24
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,010 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The same sex marriage issue is all over the news as here in Scotland as well. I never realised it was one of the priority topics that Governments should deal with. FWIW, my opinion is that marriage is for a man and a woman. If 2 women or 2 men want to enter into some arrangement similar to marriage, invent a new description (like civil parnership), get legal recognition of it, don't hijack the existing one.


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    #25
    Rheo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Rheo


    Meh, we should just allow same sex marriage. There simply is no good reason not to allow it. Nothing bad will happen if you let same sex couples marry (and yes, have it recognised as marriage).

    At the end of the day, it's between two consenting adult human beings, and just because some random person down the road feels bad that those two people are in a recognised marriage doesn't actually matter, as they are completely irrelevant to the relationship.

    Allow it, and let's move on to more pressing issues. It just seems silly not to at this point.


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    #26
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    FWIW, my opinion is that marriage is for a man and a woman. If 2 women or 2 men want to enter into some arrangement similar to marriage, invent a new description (like civil parnership), get legal recognition of it, don't hijack the existing one.

    So your definition of what marriage is should be the legal basis for whether two consenting adults can get married? They do have a name for it - it's called "civil marriage". You know, outside the realm of religious based definitions.


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    #27
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,010 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    That is not the issue I have with it. I disagree with the imposition of same sex marraige within those religions that are against it.


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    #28
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    That is not the issue I have with it. I disagree with the imposition of same sex marraige within those religions that are against it.

    So you do not oppose civil marriage for same-sex couples?


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    #29
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,010 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    No I do not oppose civil marraige however I do not support the imposition of same sex marraige into those religions who are against it


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    #30
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    No I do not oppose civil marraige however I do not support the imposition of same sex marraige into those religions who are against it

    There is no one that is endorsing that. The demand is to allow them to have a civil marriage which at this point, they cannot. No religion is expected to engage in a gay marriage if they don't approve of it.


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    #31
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    No I do not oppose civil marraige however I do not support the imposition of same sex marraige into those religions who are against it

    I don't remember anybody arguing for that.


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