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Kenny vs Cowen
Comments
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People are putting ridiculous expectations on the coalition's head. They aren't a year in government yet and people are holding them accountable for promises not delivered in their programme for government: said programme is supposed to cover 5 years.
And, unless you are extremely naive to politics, you don't believe that every box will be ticked...because, put simply, it's a lot easier to write a list of goals than it is to draw up comprehensive legislation, arrange to have it debated then pass it through the Dáil. A programme is, essentially, a list of targets designed to let you know what the government's aims are and give you a flavour of what to expect. Take it like a CV: it's going to be inflated but you just want to get a good idea of what to expect from it.
Just because it's not delivered word-for-word doesn't mean the government are flip-flopping or U-turning. You just hope that they'll bring in enough meaningful changes in their various sectors on balance.
I am, quite frankly, sick of the criticism being unfairly lauded on the coalition. They are nowhere near being compared to Cowen et al. They have been massively restricted in what they can and can't do by the mess they inherited and their attempts to improve our standing in Europe (whether you agree with their refusal to burn the bondholders - their intent has our best interests at heart); be as open, honest and accountable as possible; boost morale (with the likes of the Obama/Queen visits); and protect people even while making tough decisions (e.g. not raising income tax and being light on social welfare in the budget) is, frankly, a breath of fresh air compared to what we were used to.
The real indicator, for me, is that I no longer feel the sense of impending doom about the country that I did this time 12 months ago. These days, I can walk around and, for brief moments, forget there is even a recession on. I don't feel the same sense of shame that I did to be Irish last year.
Yes, the world is ****ed. Yes, the euro is going down the drain. Yes, we're entering unknown territory. But living in Ireland isn't unbearable anymore, as it was last year. And that's not bad work for just 12 months.
Very well said.0 -
If you were to make an objective list of things that would boost the economy, I doubt reducing TDs salaries would be in the Top 100.
But it would probably be one of the top 10 solutions according to public opinion.
leggo - its about leadership. Either you get it, or you dont.Whereas nobody seems to be addressing the fact that we need to attract well educated and qualified people to lead our country. Offer them €30k a year and they'd be better off getting an area manager job with Dunnes.
Do you want your begrudgery-filled bloodlust satiated? Or do you want the country fixed? If it's the latter, then cop on and start using your democratic right to an opinion to push politicians towards workable solutions, and not popular distractions.
We would probably be better getting area managers from Dunnes to replace most of the dead weight in the states institutions. Everyone wins.
You are falling prey to the malign myth of Official Ireland whereby it is assumed that if you pay someone hundreds of thousands of euros, you will get a great performance whereas if you don't, you wont.
This is quite simply garbage. Irish bankers were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Irish civil servants were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Irish politicians were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Meanwhile, bankers, civil servants and politicians paid less than their Irish colleagues deliver better results. There is no direct link between pay and performance.0 -
He sure will... he's no longer welcome in my local where he has drank regularly enough for yearstayto lover wrote: »He'll get some kick in the arse next election.0 -
leggo - its about leadership. Either you get it, or you dont.
We would probably be better getting area managers from Dunnes to replace most of the dead weight in the states institutions. Everyone wins.
You are falling prey to the malign myth of Official Ireland whereby it is assumed that if you pay someone hundreds of thousands of euros, you will get a great performance whereas if you don't, you wont.
This is quite simply garbage. Irish bankers were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Irish civil servants were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Irish politicians were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Meanwhile, bankers, civil servants and politicians paid less than their Irish colleagues deliver better results. There is no direct link between pay and performance.
Excellent post.0 -
You are falling prey to the malign myth of Official Ireland whereby it is assumed that if you pay someone hundreds of thousands of euros, you will get a great performance whereas if you don't, you wont.
This is quite simply garbage. Irish bankers were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Irish civil servants were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Irish politicians were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Meanwhile, bankers, civil servants and politicians paid less than their Irish colleagues deliver better results. There is no direct link between pay and performance.
Not at all, please don't put words in my mouth.
I think the salaries are completely fair, if we're getting said performance out of it. You've made the distinction yourself that there's a difference.
Whether you feel that their performance is up to scratch or not is a perfectly fair debate. It is, in fact, your entitlement in a democratic society.
The amount of their salaries is to ensure that we attract people qualified in their respective fields to handle such duties. You say that we may as well have Dunnes Stores area managers running the country, as it is. Should that be what we aspire to, though*? Do you think that'd be a sensible way to lead our country out of financial crisis? To have someone with no qualification in, or knowledge of, economics in charge of your finances?
If you have a problem with whether this is being done or not, this isn't down to how much we are paying them. It's very simple. Your problem, then, is with the selection process. Who controls that? Well, you do. I do. Everyone posting here does.
But what does how much we pay the people we elect have to do with whether whether the right people are being elected? Can you not see that they're two completely different arguments?
This is really basic stuff, like... But don't let your outrage and begrudgery of high-earning public figures blind you, or anything.
*I'm not criticising Dunnes Stores managers, or equivalent positions, by the way. It's simply an illustration of a job that requires no actual qualifications in specific fields.0 -
You say that we may as well have Dunnes Stores area managers running the country, as it is. Should that be what we aspire to, though*?
Every journey begins with a first step. Dunne's Stores area managers would be a significant improvement and we shouldn't postpone immediate improvements in favor of some long off, ambitious and out of reach goal.
P.S. A personal annoyance of mine is how Ireland apparently cant plan for anything that isnt "world-class". Be it an airport, a hospital or a piss up in a brewery "world-class" is the aspiration.
Lets not get overly ambitious here. We are a small, bankrupt nation: lets shoot for "functional", "effective", "efficient" and the "world class" aspect will take care of itself.I think the salaries are completely fair, if we're getting said performance out of it. You've made the distinction yourself that there's a difference.
And we're not. Citing undelivered performance to support unaffordable salaries is an intriguing argument.
Meanwhile, just to demonstrate the point: Diaspora 2016 have worked to put together a list of 100 international figures who are pledged to help Ireland by serving on its public boards, offering their experience, insight and proven skills....for free.
Yes, that's right. Free. We can get experienced, proven, excellent leaders. For free.
NAME TITLE COMPANY
Conor Allen Director Cowen and Company
Kevin Barrett CIO Elan
Craig Barrett Retired CEO/Chairman of the Board Intel Corporation
Chris Buddin Vice President - Global Clean Technology and Renewables Goldman Sachs
Conrad Burke Founder Innovalight and Dupont
James Carroll Senior Vice President of the Global Product Development Group Yahoo!
Liam Casey Founder and CEO PCH International
John Daly Co-head of the Industrial and Natural Resources Financing Group sector and head of the INR sector in Equity Capital Markets Goldman Sachs
Bill Daly Former SVP Warner Bros
Brian Desmond Vice president of Marketing Guidewire
Dennis Donohue Mayor Salinas, CA
Una Fox Vice President of Technology Disney
Kieran Hannon Vice President UBM canon
John Hartnett Founder & President ITLG
Gareth Keane Investment Manager Qualcomm
Martin Kelly Vice President of Worldwide Information technology Citrix
Tom Kelly MD The Blackstone Group
Tom McEnery Former Mayor San Jose, Author and Investor San Pedro Sq. Properties
Rory McInerney Vice President Intel
Kieran McLoughlin President & CEO The Worldwide Ireland Funds
Peter Milner EVP Corp Dev and Co Founder Optivia Biotechnology
Richard Moran Partner Irish Technology Capital
Barry O'Sullivan SVP Cisco
Paul Rellis Managing Director Microsoft Ireland
John Ryan Founder Macrovision (Now Rovi Corporation)
O'Donoghue Sean Chief Information Officer DreamWorks Animation
John Stanton General Partner Irish Technology Capital
Harry Sweeney Founder Paca Paca Horse Ranch
Jacinta Tobin Senior Vice President, Worldwide Sales and Business Development Cloudmark Inc
"Official Ireland"'s response is embarrassed silence - they prefer to shove some rednecked knuckle dragging moron from the backwoods in to offer their completely unqualified 0.02 because hes a party insider. And pay him a ridiculous amount of money to do so.
Do you think a Dunnes Stores area manager would reject the chance to get advice, help and leadership in getting "Smart economy" investment from someone like Craig Barrett? For free.0 -
Every journey begins with a first step. Dunne's Stores area managers would be a significant improvement and we shouldn't postpone immediate improvements in favor of some long off, ambitious and out of reach goal.
P.S. A personal annoyance of mine is how Ireland apparently cant plan for anything that isnt "world-class". Be it an airport, a hospital or a piss up in a brewery "world-class" is the aspiration.
Lets not get overly ambitious here. We are a small, bankrupt nation: lets shoot for "functional", "effective", "efficient" and the "world class" aspect will take care of itself.
And we're not. Citing undelivered performance to support unaffordable salaries is an intriguing argument.
Meanwhile, just to demonstrate the point: Diaspora 2016 have worked to put together a list of 100 international figures who are pledged to help Ireland by serving on its public boards, offering their experience, insight and proven skills....for free.
Yes, that's right. Free. We can get experienced, proven, excellent leaders. For free.
NAME TITLE COMPANY
Conor Allen Director Cowen and Company
Kevin Barrett CIO Elan
Craig Barrett Retired CEO/Chairman of the Board Intel Corporation
Chris Buddin Vice President - Global Clean Technology and Renewables Goldman Sachs
Conrad Burke Founder Innovalight and Dupont
James Carroll Senior Vice President of the Global Product Development Group Yahoo!
Liam Casey Founder and CEO PCH International
John Daly Co-head of the Industrial and Natural Resources Financing Group sector and head of the INR sector in Equity Capital Markets Goldman Sachs
Bill Daly Former SVP Warner Bros
Brian Desmond Vice president of Marketing Guidewire
Dennis Donohue Mayor Salinas, CA
Una Fox Vice President of Technology Disney
Kieran Hannon Vice President UBM canon
John Hartnett Founder & President ITLG
Gareth Keane Investment Manager Qualcomm
Martin Kelly Vice President of Worldwide Information technology Citrix
Tom Kelly MD The Blackstone Group
Tom McEnery Former Mayor San Jose, Author and Investor San Pedro Sq. Properties
Rory McInerney Vice President Intel
Kieran McLoughlin President & CEO The Worldwide Ireland Funds
Peter Milner EVP Corp Dev and Co Founder Optivia Biotechnology
Richard Moran Partner Irish Technology Capital
Barry O'Sullivan SVP Cisco
Paul Rellis Managing Director Microsoft Ireland
John Ryan Founder Macrovision (Now Rovi Corporation)
O'Donoghue Sean Chief Information Officer DreamWorks Animation
John Stanton General Partner Irish Technology Capital
Harry Sweeney Founder Paca Paca Horse Ranch
Jacinta Tobin Senior Vice President, Worldwide Sales and Business Development Cloudmark Inc
"Official Ireland"'s response is embarrassed silence - they prefer to shove some rednecked knuckle dragging moron from the backwoods in to offer their completely unqualified 0.02 because hes a party insider. And pay him a ridiculous amount of money to do so.
Do you think a Dunnes Stores area manager would reject the chance to get advice, help and leadership in getting "Smart economy" investment from someone like Craig Barrett? For free.
I bet those boys weren't invited to Farmleigh. They only want their cronies who are on their wavelenght. Competent businessmen might discover how inept they actually are.0 -
You really need to stop changing the question then acting as if that's what I'm arguing against.
For example, I'd be all for our electoral system being given a massive, massive reform...but again, that's a completely separate conversation.
Originally, we were talking about Enda vs. Cowen. Then someone brought up TD salaries. Now you're acting as if I feel that public figures volunteering in consultant-type roles are a bad idea. Can you just pick a point and stick with it so we can actually have a discussion. I'm helping you out by giving you posts, perfectly illustrating my point, that you can actually read instead of just arguing against whatever comes into your brain at any given moment and addressing it my way.
Insofar as your attempt to tie it into your main point, these people wouldn't be in charge of the day-to-day running of the country. As I said, they're providing (essentially) consultant roles on public boards. Admirable, valuable, and I agree that the government are fools if they do pass it up, but it's not the same as saying that we can have people run the country for free. The laughable thing about that point is that all of the above are probably already on six-figure salaries/pensions from their field of expertise! You've just proven my point.
And, again, they still wouldn't be running the country. They wouldn't be working day-to-day. They also wouldn't be electable and accountable towards the public. So it's a non-starter. Sorry.0 -
@leggoDo you think that'd be a sensible way to lead our country out of financial crisis? To have someone with no qualification in, or knowledge of, economics in charge of your finances?
Oh man, I just spotted this
May I introduce you to the Department of Finance whose wages you are championing. Where half have no financial qualifications whatsoever. And that there is only two economists with doctorates in the DoF and thats about it, for the entire Irish civil service.
This is the problem with your viewpoint - its wrong and based on fantasy.0 -
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So you admit you're not actually reading my posts before forming a counter-argument?
And, again, my argument is that the figures themselves are fine...if we are getting performance out of it. There's a distinct difference between that and saying that I'm championing these individuals particularly. I didn't vote FG.
Again, if you actually read the topic, you'd know all of this already.0 -
Originally, we were talking about Enda vs. Cowen. Then someone brought up TD salaries. Now you're acting as if I feel that public figures volunteering in consultant-type roles are a bad idea.
I'm noting that Ireland doesn't have to pay sky high salaries to get expertise in running the state, when your whole argument is that you cant get excellent performance without paying ridiculous money. Which is disproved by Diaspora Ireland, the better performance of others who are paid less than our lot, and the wholly unqualified and unmotivated people who are employed to represent us.
Your making an argument based on fantasy - woulda, coulda, shoulda. That's nice, but reality is a bit of a problem for your viewpoint.0 -
Did you read the rest of that paragraph? About how those people are likely all earning six-figure salaries for their expertise already? And how they aren't electable and accountable? None of that went in, no?
Read the post before you reply.0 -
Did you read the rest of that paragraph? About how those people are likely all earning six-figure salaries for their expertise already? And how they aren't electable and accountable? None of that went in, no?
Read the post before you reply.
All of it was irrelevant.
People are not elected to public boards, they are appointed so that's irrelevant. They're offering to do additional work, unpaid, for free which disproves your claim that you have to offer ridiculous money to get motivated qualified candidates.
Basically, you're wrong.0 -
You're disagreeing with me saying they aren't electable...by pointing out that they can't be elected, and are appointed? (i.e. they aren't electable)
You argue that you can get qualified people for little to no money, by giving examples of people who earn six-figure salaries in their respective fields because they are qualified.
If you can't see this stuff, you're genuinely not worth arguing with. How can you have a sensible debate with someone talking such nonsense?0 -
leggo,
theres a saying, "dont dare argue with an idiot, because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
your posts are rambling, and repetive.
well i think that you are an idiot, run for election with FG please, and get off my thread!You're disagreeing with me saying they aren't electable...by pointing out that they can't be elected, and are appointed? (i.e. they aren't electable)
You argue that you can get qualified people for little to no money, by giving examples of people who earn six-figure salaries in their respective fields because they are qualified.
If you can't see this stuff, you're genuinely not worth arguing with. How can you have a sensible debate with someone talking such nonsense?0 -
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Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,353 CMod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 36469
MOD REMINDER:
Please be advised that some posts are getting a bit "too personal," which violates our charter. Please focus on the topic, not each other.0 -
@leggo
Where half have no financial qualifications whatsoever. And that there is only two economists with doctorates in the DoF and thats about it, for the entire Irish civil service.
This seems to be one of those points that's easy to get angry but really is an unimportant point. What are the roles in the department that don't have finance qualifications? Are the HR, clerks? Do the roles need a qualification in finance? Without that information there is no justification in getting angry.
Did you read the article you've linked fully? Particularly the part at the end saying that the state laboratory is included in the figures which would include an estimated 80 scientists out of the 100 in the lab. None of which SHOULD have a qualification in finance. That's 80 out of the 422 (19% if you're counting).
This really is akin to getting angry after being told that not everyone in Intel has a computer/engineering qualification. Or that not everyone in a university has a qualification in education.0 -
aThis seems to be one of those points that's easy to get angry but really is an unimportant point. What are the roles in the department that don't have finance qualifications? Are the HR, clerks? Do the roles need a qualification in finance? Without that information there is no justification in getting angry.
Did you read the article you've linked fully? Particularly the part at the end saying that the state laboratory is included in the figures which would include an estimated 80 scientists out of the 100 in the lab. None of which SHOULD have a qualification in finance. That's 80 out of the 422 (19% if you're counting).
This really is akin to getting angry after being told that not everyone in Intel has a computer/engineering qualification. Or that not everyone in a university has a qualification in education.
I dont think you are comparing apples with apples. are you telling us that the dept of finance has a hr team within for the dept of finance?
why is it relevant to say that none of the state lab SHOULD have a qualification? I dont understand.
rgds0 -
This seems to be one of those points that's easy to get angry but really is an unimportant point. What are the roles in the department that don't have finance qualifications? Are the HR, clerks? Do the roles need a qualification in finance? Without that information there is no justification in getting angry.
I'll summarize the context of my post. A poster rolls up stating that focusing on pay to high ranking figures in our state is a non-issue, a distraction from real problems. A couple of statements are made:
1 - People arguing for cuts in pay to TDs, quangos and top civil servants are blood hungry begrudgers, blind to the real problems the country faces
2 - Pay to TDs, quangos and top civil servants are a tiny proportion of our deficit so is not worth focusing on.
3 - We have to pay top salaries to attract top talent to state service - if we don't, the wonderful talent in the public sector will be headhunted by the private sector.
4 - So long as the people are delivering results, their pay is justified
5 - We really don't want to have unqualified people running our state finances, that would be disastrous.
In response I note:
1 - :rolleyes:
2 - Leadership requires those at the top set an example in their willingness to accept reform of pay and conditions before they demand it of others.
3 - Many top qualified and experienced people are willing to serve in Ireland's governance for free, as demonstrated by Diaspora 2016. Many top qualified and experienced people are willing to serve in Ireland's governance for some pay between free and current unaffordable levels. So we can get top class people without paying over the market rate. And the idea of the private sector headhunting in the public sector is laughable.
4 - They're not delivering results - you don't pay for what you're not getting.
5 - (This is the post you're responding to): We do have wholly unqualified people in our Department of Finance running our state finances. The poor quality of the DoF staff and the low numbers with relevant qualifications or experience has been an issue identified as a failing throughout the Celtic Tiger with only recent efforts made to fix it.
Thats the context my post was made in. I'm not going to argue the odds over what percentage need to have qualifications as thats just a red herring - the DoF has been audited and found that it doesn't have enough relevant qualifications or experienced staff, which disproves the idea that if you pay over the odds qualified staff are the result.
You and me arguing over what the % should be on an internet discussion board wont affect that.0 -
have2flushtwice wrote: »a
I dont think you are comparing apples with apples. are you telling us that the dept of finance has a hr team within for the dept of finance?
why is it relevant to say that none of the state lab SHOULD have a qualification? I dont understand.
rgds
Yes I am saying they have a human resources team and so are they
here
I really don't think you've thought this through, do you know what the state lab is and what it does? I suggest you look into that before you ask a question why scientists in a scientific lab shouldn't be expected to have a finance qualification, you'll note I was specifically talking about the 80 scientists in the lab not the other staff.
I believe you might have be making assumptions that because the lab comes under the bureaucratic umbrella of the Dept of Finance that it has a financial slant. It doesn't, I suggest you look at page 20 http://www.statelab.ie/PDF/AnnRep2011.pdf0 -
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I'll summarize the context of my post. A poster rolls up stating that focusing on pay to high ranking figures in our state is a non-issue, a distraction from real problems. A couple of statements are made:
1 - People arguing for cuts in pay to TDs, quangos and top civil servants are blood hungry begrudgers, blind to the real problems the country faces
2 - Pay to TDs, quangos and top civil servants are a tiny proportion of our deficit so is not worth focusing on.
3 - We have to pay top salaries to attract top talent to state service - if we don't, the wonderful talent in the public sector will be headhunted by the private sector.
4 - So long as the people are delivering results, their pay is justified
5 - We really don't want to have unqualified people running our state finances, that would be disastrous.
In response I note:
1 - :rolleyes:
2 - Leadership requires those at the top set an example in their willingness to accept reform of pay and conditions before they demand it of others.
There has already been a long thread on politicians salaries recently, it is of course a damn important subject. More than anything it is important because the public need to trust and respect their politicians for them to be as effective as possible. Pay is a significant part of this, I have already gone into detail on my thoughts on this and how I think a fairer system could be implemented in this thread starting here. I am in no way trying to discourage a discussion on this, nor disagreeing with your anger.3 - Many top qualified and experienced people are willing to serve in Ireland's governance for free, as demonstrated by Diaspora 2016. Many top qualified and experienced people are willing to serve in Ireland's governance for some pay between free and current unaffordable levels. So we can get top class people without paying over the market rate. And the idea of the private sector headhunting in the public sector is laughable.
You make some excellent points, on point 3 though it is only fair to say that many top qualified and experienced people are willing to give some of their time for free. Lets not overstate it as if they are willing to come in and do 10 hour days 5 days a week. Just to be clear I want these individuals to be used, so long as there isn't a conflict of interest and potential exploitation. If these people are still CEOs/high ranking individuals in private companies we want to make sure they are not just there to influence things in their companies favour, i.e Denis O'Brien. So again lets not oversimplify and pretend that we should just open the doors to them.
On 4, that is your personal opinion and thats fine but I disagree. It is a broad generalisation that in my mind is not true. There are many high ranking individuals in the CS and PS that are delivering results and/or savings and efficiences. To say it in such a flippant way that all of them are not doesn't sit well with me at all. Again, reform and improvements are needed. In some areas, things are nowhere near up to scratch but that is not true everywhere. If you can't accept the positives of a system as well as being able to identify the negatives you have no chance of being able to improve the system.4 - They're not delivering results - you don't pay for what you're not getting.
On the point I was responding to point 5. It is you that placed significance on the % not me originally. I was just asking you why you thought 50% was low considering the department and its staff.5 - (This is the post you're responding to): We do have wholly unqualified people in our Department of Finance running our state finances. The poor quality of the DoF staff and the low numbers with relevant qualifications or experience has been an issue identified as a failing throughout the Celtic Tiger with only recent efforts made to fix it.
Thats the context my post was made in. I'm not going to argue the odds over what percentage need to have qualifications as thats just a red herring - the DoF has been audited and found that it doesn't have enough relevant qualifications or experienced staff, which disproves the idea that if you pay over the odds qualified staff are the result.
You and me arguing over what the % should be on an internet discussion board wont affect that.
Now you have made a number of statements in this paragraph and I have seen no evidence anywhere that they are true. I am going to ask you to back them up because it seems you are being disingenuous.
1. Apart from the journal article what other sources do you have to back up?
2. "We do have wholly unqualified people in our Department of Finance running our state finances. The poor quality of the DoF staff and the low numbers with relevant qualifications or experience has been an issue identified as a failing throughout the Celtic Tiger with only recent efforts made to fix it. " The journal.ie report states that there are people within the Department who don't have finance qualification it says nothing about them being the chief decision makers as opposed to being HR/ the state lab. So please show me some evidence of this, to me, over the top statement.
3. "the DoF has been audited and found that it doesn't have enough relevant qualifications or experienced staff" Where is this audit that you speak of which found that the Dept doesn't have enough relevant qualifications or experienced staff. I am very interested to read this and who created it. Again I don't know of the existence of this report. To my knowledge the information comes from here where there has been no interpretation of whether the number of qualifications is low/high.0
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