Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

Tipsy McSwagger · 18-06-2014 12:24am

The one scene I was hoping they wouldn't change was Tywin getting killed while taking a dump and I was delighted they left it in.

bopper · 18-06-2014 1:51am

Gbear wrote: »

Yeah, they didn't mention Tysha.
My point is that they certainly had the time to, just like they've been name-dropping the Iron Bank and Golden Company all season so we know what's going on when they appear.

I'm not saying they didn't had time to mention her. They had plenty of time to name drop her but it still would have been confusing for a lot of viewers. Unless they randomly had Tyrion relay the entire Tysha back story again for no reason, which personally I think would have been very odd.

Iwasfrozen · 18-06-2014 2:26am

bopper wrote: »

I'm not saying they didn't had time to mention her. They had plenty of time to name drop her but it still would have been confusing for a lot of viewers. Unless they randomly had Tyrion relay the entire Tysha back story again for no reason, which personally I think would have been very odd.

They could have easily talked about Tysha instead of the beetle speech. Non-book readers would have been confused at the time but it would have been clear two episodes later. The problem with dumbing the show down is it looses it's edge.

bopper · 18-06-2014 2:27am

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

What use is putting a bounty on somebody if you don't inform people of said bounty. If the Hound was suspected to be in the general area of the Riverlands then the Eyrie would be somewhere that was informed surely? It would probably be one of the few places that would receive a raven personally being one the 7 kingdoms.

The guards have been employed by Lysa for quite a long time and would surely have heard through heresay if nothing else about the Stark downfall and be aware of the name Arya Stark. Littlefinger is Arya's Uncle by marriage, just because Lysa's dead doesn't really mean much.

Considering how little respect Lysa seemed to be shown from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, the fact that it was widely known she wasn't right in the head, and her affiliation with The Starks, I think it's a bit of stretch to presume Tywin would send her a raven, ever.

The guards (who may have only been hired by Lysa for a week for all we know) I doubt could care less that someone who looks like a beggar is claiming to be the niece of the now deceased Lysa. Even if Lysa had been alive, I'm not sure why the guards would stop Arya from walking away if she chose to do so. Unless Lysa specifically sent instructions to the guards to hold anyone claiming to be a child of her dead sister that she hated (doubtful). Obviously neither Arya or The Hound would have any interest in seeing Littlefinger, and I don't see why he would be interested in seeing them either. Surely it's in his better interests for Sansa to continue believing she has no one else left.

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Following the logic of the show that's what you'd expect to happen.

I don't agree at all. I never questioned for a second that for some strange reason they wouldn't be allowed to leave the narrow path.

bopper · 18-06-2014 2:33am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They could have easily talked about Tysha instead of the beetle speech. Non-book readers would have been confused at the time but it would have been clear two episodes later. The problem with dumbing the show down is it looses it's edge.

Well as I said, unless Tyrion relays the entire Tysha back story again, a lot of people aren't going to know who she is. It would seem even odder if he relays the story to Jamie of all people, who already knows it.

Iwasfrozen · 18-06-2014 2:44am

bopper wrote: »

Well as I said, unless Tyrion relays the entire Tysha back story again, a lot of people aren't going to know who she is. It would seem even odder if he relays the story to Jamie of all people, who already knows it.

Jaime already knew about the beetles too but no one thought it odd when Tyrion mentioned them.

Liam O · 18-06-2014 4:20am

bopper wrote: »

Well as I said, unless Tyrion relays the entire Tysha back story again, a lot of people aren't going to know who she is. It would seem even odder if he relays the story to Jamie of all people, who already knows it.

Tyrion: "Jaime, I can't believe that whore Shae testified against me, father has done this before with Tysha, he goes to such lengths to make my life miserable. Did he really have to go as far as to have all the guardsmen rape her? And me to go last? He is inhuman."

Jaime: "Tysha was unfortunate but she was a whore and you know how father feels about whores, all father cares about is his legacy. He wanted to teach you a lesson and I could hardly stop him. I was a cocky boy who thought the world revolved around him. Father is who he is because of things like this."

Or when Oberyn was in the dungeon and they were exchanging love stories, or in Oberyn's first episode:

Oberyn: "I plan on staying in Kings Landing until I get justice from both the Mountain and your father for the death of Elia."

Tyrion: "Ha, good luck with that, did you hear the story of my first marriage? [insert Tysha story]"

This would have garnered more sympathy from Oberyn too. There was plenty of time to do it and to build up to it. It was just a pointless exclusion.

bopper · 18-06-2014 5:02am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Jaime already knew about the beetles too but no one thought it odd when Tyrion mentioned them.

It was actually Jamie that mentioned them, and Tyrion was telling him a story about a time when he was younger and Jamie wasn't around.

Liam O wrote: »

Tyrion: "Jaime, I can't believe that whore Shae testified against me, father has done this before with Tysha, he goes to such lengths to make my life miserable. Did he really have to go as far as to have all the guardsmen rape her? And me to go last? He is inhuman."

Jaime: "Tysha was unfortunate but she was a whore and you know how father feels about whores, all father cares about is his legacy. He wanted to teach you a lesson and I could hardly stop him. I was a cocky boy who thought the world revolved around him. Father is who he is because of things like this."

And I'm sure half the audience wouldn't have been asking "who the f*ck is Tysha?"

Liam O wrote: »

Or when Oberyn was in the dungeon and they were exchanging love stories, or in Oberyn's first episode:

Oberyn: "I plan on staying in Kings Landing until I get justice from both the Mountain and your father for the death of Elia."

Tyrion: "Ha, good luck with that, did you hear the story of my first marriage? [insert Tysha story]"

If it played out like that we'd be reading posts on here complaining about how incredibly forced and awkward it was that Tyrion brought up Tysha literally out of nowhere.

Liam O · 18-06-2014 5:54am

bopper wrote: »

It was actually Jamie that mentioned them, and Tyrion was telling him a story about a time when he was younger and Jamie wasn't around.

And I'm sure half the audience wouldn't have been asking "who the f*ck is Tysha?"

If it played out like that we'd be reading posts on here complaining about how incredibly forced and awkward it was that Tyrion brought up Tysha literally out of nowhere.

1. The showrunners are pandering to people too much if that's the case. They've mentioned her before so planned to use her further, to then just cut it is poor planning or pandering. You wouldn't see the wire doing that but this show goes out of it's way to explain everything too much imo. Let people go back and watch, it's what you had to do, more painstakingly, as a reader if you forgot something.

2. Nothing in the scenes between Oberyn and Tyrion could feel forced, they were absolutely mesmerising and 2 brilliant actors embodying their characters to the fullest. They brought up Oberyn's trip to the Rock so why not Tysha?

bopper · 18-06-2014 7:00am

Liam O wrote: »

1. The showrunners are pandering to people too much if that's the case. They've mentioned her before so planned to use her further, to then just cut it is poor planning or pandering. You wouldn't see the wire doing that but this show goes out of it's way to explain everything too much imo. Let people go back and watch, it's what you had to do, more painstakingly, as a reader if you forgot something.

2. Nothing in the scenes between Oberyn and Tyrion could feel forced, they were absolutely mesmerising and 2 brilliant actors embodying their characters to the fullest. They brought up Oberyn's trip to the Rock so why not Tysha?

Honestly, I think when they were filming that one scene that they were simply providing some character development for Tyrion, and not thinking ahead three years to Tywin's death scene. Had the show even been renewed for a second season at that stage? In fact had it even aired at all?

For all we know the writers did try and include the Tysha element and they simply couldn't make it work.

Oberyn told the story of his visit to the rock to let Tyrion know that Oberyn and his sister had met Tyrion before, and that he was aware of how long Cersei has wanted him dead. There was a point to that story. To then jump into Tyrion's story of Tysha, and then to jump back to Oberyn wanting justice for his sister, it wouldn't have flowed well at all.

Look how many people complained how awkward and forced Lysa's confession about Jon Arryn was, and sure enough that's something went over a lot of viewers heads (I had to explain the importance of it to four separate viewers). That whole backstory obviously hasn't concluded yet though so the writers obviously felt they had no choice but to include it.

They didn't have to bring Tysha into it to give Tyrion a reason to murder Tywin, and it's doubtful her character will need to be mentioned again for the rest of the series, so they must have felt they could afford to cut her. It's bound to p*ss a few book readers off, but unfortunately you can't please everyone.

Tazzimus · 18-06-2014 7:56am

lynski wrote: »

The Hound and Arya at the eyrie made sense to me, Lysa was nuts and paranoid, if she got a raven from lannisters, who she blames for killing her husband, she would not tell anyone about it, she would probably not hand over the hound even if she caught him and someone that 'flying' happy would have soldiers who do as they are told.

Didn't Lysa kill Jon Arryn herself cos Littlefinger asked her to?

username123 · 18-06-2014 8:39am

Tazzimus wrote: »

Didn't Lysa kill Jon Arryn herself cos Littlefinger asked her to?

Yes.

Oranage2 · 18-06-2014 9:22am

I don't get all this 'he should have said this or he should done this ', you know what happens anyway so what difference does it make, I rather look at visually striking and acted scenes instead of focusing on what he or she said or didn't say.

Go over to the non reader thread, they look pretty content over there with how everything went.

Paddy Cow · 18-06-2014 10:19am

I thought the fight between Brienne and the Hound was better than Oberyn and the Mountain. Brienne and Sandor will get together before the end. Loved the episode. The Tysa story worked in the books but it wasn't needed for the show. They can only fit so much in. The only change I'm worried about is how Jamie and Tyrion left on such good terms. In the books it was heart breaking the way they both hurt each other so badly. I wonder how their paths will cross (if they do) in the future. There is so much going on in people's heads in the books that is hard to convey on the show. Overall I think they did a great job.

Mr.Prodston · 18-06-2014 10:46am

bopper wrote: »

Considering how little respect Lysa seemed to be shown from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, the fact that it was widely known she wasn't right in the head, and her affiliation with The Starks, I think it's a bit of stretch to presume Tywin would send her a raven, ever.

The guards (who may have only been hired by Lysa for a week for all we know) I doubt could care less that someone who looks like a beggar is claiming to be the niece of the now deceased Lysa. Even if Lysa had been alive, I'm not sure why the guards would stop Arya from walking away if she chose to do so. Unless Lysa specifically sent instructions to the guards to hold anyone claiming to be a child of her dead sister that she hated (doubtful). Obviously neither Arya or The Hound would have any interest in seeing Littlefinger, and I don't see why he would be interested in seeing them either. Surely it's in his better interests for Sansa to continue believing she has no one else left.

I don't agree at all. I never questioned for a second that for some strange reason they wouldn't be allowed to leave the narrow path.

I can see where you're comeing from but I still stand firmly over over my view. We'll just have to agree to disagree over a chicken dinner :pac:

Mr.Prodston · 18-06-2014 10:50am

Can we just take a second and show some major love to Charles Dance and his brilliant Tywin Lannister. He's a massive loss to the show and really brought the character to life.

An absolute legend

Riskymove · 18-06-2014 10:50am

obviously a lot of annoyed people over LS

http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/game-of-thrones-finale-1522496-Jun2014/

username123 · 18-06-2014 11:10am

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I thought the fight between Brienne and the Hound was better than Oberyn and the Mountain. Brienne and Sandor will get together before the end. Loved the episode.

He would certainly have respect for her!

Yes, I thought it was a much grittier fight, it was a real down and dirty fight. I loved that they both dropped their weapons and just got grappling, punching, biting etc. I also loved seeing Brienne onscreen with someone who made her height look normal!

I was surprised she just walked away when he went over the edge though, thought she would have gone to finish him off.

conorhal · 18-06-2014 11:24am

Riskymove wrote: »

obviously a lot of annoyed people over LS

http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/game-of-thrones-finale-1522496-Jun2014/

Ah screw them, there hasn't been a more pointless storyline then Lady Stonheart in the books since Brienne wandered the earth like Kane looking for a girl of four and ten with red hair.
At lest Brienne's meeting with the Hound gave that quest a focal point and it's a prime example of how sometimes a departure from the book can provide a more satisfying narrative arc then a faithful adaption.
The LS suff is clutter that could easily have been dropped, after all, the brotherhood without banners were not even mentioned this season, shoe horning in a pointless epilogue as fan service would be counter productive (especially given that nobody whines more about her then the book readers).

conorhal · 18-06-2014 11:27am

username123 wrote: »

He would certainly have respect for her!

Yes, I thought it was a much grittier fight, it was a real down and dirty fight. I loved that they both dropped their weapons and just got grappling, punching, biting etc. I also loved seeing Brienne onscreen with someone who made her height look normal!

I was surprised she just walked away when he went over the edge though, thought she would have gone to finish him off.

The Hound's cnut punt in retaliation for the ball slap he got made me bust out laughing. That was a gloriously drag down and dirty fight.

Liam O · 18-06-2014 11:44am

bopper wrote: »

Honestly, I think when they were filming that one scene that they were simply providing some character development for Tyrion, and not thinking ahead three years to Tywin's death scene. Had the show even been renewed for a second season at that stage? In fact had it even aired at all?

For all we know the writers did try and include the Tysha element and they simply couldn't make it work.

Oberyn told the story of his visit to the rock to let Tyrion know that Oberyn and his sister had met Tyrion before, and that he was aware of how long Cersei has wanted him dead. There was a point to that story. To then jump into Tyrion's story of Tysha, and then to jump back to Oberyn wanting justice for his sister, it wouldn't have flowed well at all.

Look how many people complained how awkward and forced Lysa's confession about Jon Arryn was, and sure enough that's something went over a lot of viewers heads (I had to explain the importance of it to four separate viewers). That whole backstory obviously hasn't concluded yet though so the writers obviously felt they had no choice but to include it.

They didn't have to bring Tysha into it to give Tyrion a reason to murder Tywin, and it's doubtful her character will need to be mentioned again for the rest of the series, so they must have felt they could afford to cut her. It's bound to p*ss a few book readers off, but unfortunately you can't please everyone.

I think at that moment Tyrion, after being given his life back isn't going to go to Tywin for whatever reason without being given a reason for pure anger but maybe that's just me. Others seem happy that he would risk his brother's life too along with his by going to Tywin.

Another time to bring it up would have been the trial to prove that he used whores before Shae came out. Too many opportunities to bring it up imo but instead they decide a grey worm love story is what's needed.

Daith · 18-06-2014 11:59am

Liam O wrote: »

I think at that moment Tyrion, after being given his life back isn't going to go to Tywin for whatever reason without being given a reason for pure anger but maybe that's just me. Others seem happy that he would risk his brother's life too along with his by going to Tywin.

His reason is his Dad wanted to kill him. He might have had a better reason in the books but it's valid motivation for the TV show. Which is why no one who just watches the TV show complains.

Wile E. Coyote · 18-06-2014 12:03pm

Edit - Never mind. Nothing to see here......

bopper · 18-06-2014 12:05pm

Liam O wrote: »

I think at that moment Tyrion, after being given his life back isn't going to go to Tywin for whatever reason without being given a reason for pure anger but maybe that's just me. Others seem happy that he would risk his brother's life too along with his by going to Tywin.

Another time to bring it up would have been the trial to prove that he used whores before Shae came out. Too many opportunities to bring it up imo but instead they decide a grey worm love story is what's needed.

I think you're in the minority because the general reaction from non book readers has been positive. It's not as if he didn't have umpteen other reasons to be angry at Tywin. Also, he would have been risking Jamie's life regardless.

I've always been under the impression since the first episode that it's common knowledge Tyrion (and most of the wealthy men in King's Landing) use whores, even if it's not often spoke about publicly. Tysha would probably be the worst choice to use in trying to make Tyrion look bad as he was actually married to her. Cersei could have very easily paid off hundreds of whores to testify against Tyrion in court if she needed to.

I don't get the Grey Worm story either, I'm not saying I'd prefer to watch that, just that I see the reasoning behind losing the Tysha story.

Daith · 18-06-2014 12:06pm

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

It was a good episode but it was very rushed and they could have easily split it in two.

At the start when the army started attacking I thought great another brilliant battle. Hadn't a clue who it was, could have been the white walkers, could have been the Boltons, could have been Stanis....Could have been a mixture of everyone but the battle was over in about 3 minutes. Where were the 100,000 wildlings? Where were the giants? You can't defeat an army that quickly just because you're on horseback and if it was so easy for Stanis to get North of the wall why couldn't the wildlings build a boat themselves to go south?

The Calisi story is starting to bore me. She gets a couple of minutes per episode and it's always the same thing. She has 3 dragons, why did she only lock up 2?

Loved the fight with Brienne and the Hound but wasn't happy to see him killed off. Thought himself and Arya made a good team and they'd work together till they eventually fought and them she killed him. Still hoping he makes a return after she's had more training from the other guy she's going to meet.

Are you in the right thread? This is for people who've read the books.

Wile E. Coyote · 18-06-2014 12:10pm

Daith wrote: »

Are you in the right thread? This is for people who've read the books.

Ahh...ooops...had been reading the other thread and then switched to my phone to comment. Thanks for the heads up though.

TimeToShine · 18-06-2014 12:15pm

I think the reasoning behind everything has been fine except Grey Worm. I'm actually at a loss for words - I have absolutely no idea what possible purpose it could serve other than to help them meet their boobs quota for the season. Leaving Tysha out makes sense - but the way Tyrion/Jaime parted does not, unless you take it as confirmation that they'll never meet again. Would have liked "wherever whores go" included somehow but alas you can't have everything.

One thing that has come out of this though is the fact that Sandor vs Gregor is almost inevitable now. It is being set up quite well, that conversation Sandor had with Arya and the screen time dedicated to The Mountain's resurrection make it all but a certainty.

Daith · 18-06-2014 12:18pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

I think the reasoning behind everything has been fine except Grey Worm. I'm actually at a loss for words - I have absolutely no idea what possible purpose it could serve other than to help them meet their boobs quota for the season.

Fully agreed unless the gay viewers and gals finally get payback as the Unsullied all drop their trousers and we find out they're not as unsullied as we thought. Spoilers for the next book obv!

abff · 18-06-2014 5:02pm

Just reading through the discussion thread for those who have NOT read the books and came across a comment that surely Jon must be in line for the Lord Commander post now. How someone who has not read the books could reach that conclusion based on what they've seen of the TV series is beyond me.

FunLover18 · 18-06-2014 5:05pm

abff wrote: »

Just reading through the discussion thread for those who have NOT read the books and came across a comment that surely Jon must be in line for the Lord Commander post now. How someone who has not read the books could reach that conclusion based on what they've seen of the TV series is beyond me.

Thorne is injured, Slynt is a coward and the showrunners made a big deal about showing Grenn give Slynt an opportunity to leave because he knew Jon was in a better position to command the wall. Also Thorne's speech about everyone second guessing the commander was bit random ... almost as though it would become relevant later on

Mickeroo · 18-06-2014 5:06pm

abff wrote: »

Just reading through the discussion thread for those who have NOT read the books and came across a comment that surely Jon must be in line for the Lord Commander post now. How someone who has not read the books could reach that conclusion based on what they've seen of the TV series is beyond me.

There was practically neon signs flashing in the 9th episode saying Jon is going to be commander. Not surprising at all.

Just watch the scene on top of the wall where Grenn tells Slynt he's needed below, it's obvious to everyone watching the show the men trust Jon and respect him. His conversation with Thorne also foreshadowed what's coming in a big way imo.

Witcher · 18-06-2014 5:06pm

Slynt told Thorne that Jon could be a contender for LC.

They think Thorne might be dead and Slynt was hiding during the battle so they can see how the Watch might look to Jon as their leader after spying on Mance, attacking Craster's, defending CB, treating with Mance etc.

FunLover18 · 18-06-2014 7:29pm

This must be confusing to non readers http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

Now he’s lost all of that and he’s also found out that Jamie — the one blood relation that he loved unreservedly and has his back, and was always on his side — played a part in this traumatic event of his life, the ultimate betrayal.

It's clearly more focused on the book than the show, so the headline is quite misleading

Soft Falling Rain · 18-06-2014 10:45pm

Wow, I just had a look on westeros.org and youtube to find people really are up in arms over Brienne defeating Sandor, mainly because "a woman couldn't beat a man." What a load of bollocks, and that's not being PC, it's seeing what the writers clearly laid out.

Firstly, Brienne is a warrior, maybe not as adept a fighter as The Hound but can still best most men. Secondly, The Hound was not 100% healthy. Thirdly, and this is what made the fight so thrilling, they went toe to toe and traded near fatal blows before Brienne bested him. It was down and dirty and on another day, luck would have fallen on Sandor's side, but it didn't on this day.

I am really stunned that this is such a big deal for some people.

Witcher · 18-06-2014 10:56pm

Westeros.org has some of the most anal ASOIAF fans in the world, some of them just live to find faults with the show. A few weeks ago they were moaning that Oathkeeper(the sword) wasn't good enough. You can't ****ing see the thing in the books, sorry if the tv show didn't consult you for your personal image of how it looks:pac:

How much more decoration do they want on it?:pac: The thing is already bordering on the ridiculous;

This is the show prop;

http://i.imgur.com/K6jfpoy.jpg

username123 · 18-06-2014 11:13pm

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Wow, I just had a look on westeros.org and youtube to find people really are up in arms over Brienne defeating Sandor, mainly because "a woman couldn't beat a man." What a load of bollocks, and that's not being PC, it's seeing what the writers clearly laid out.

Firstly, Brienne is a warrior, maybe not as adept a fighter as The Hound but can still best most men. Secondly, The Hound was not 100% healthy. Thirdly, and this is what made the fight so thrilling, they went toe to toe and traded near fatal blows before Brienne bested him. It was down and dirty and on another day, luck would have fallen on Sandor's side, but it didn't on this day.

I am really stunned that this is such a big deal for some people.

Brienne had technically already beaten him when he lost his sword, that was the significance of him saying "I'm no knight", ie, we ain't playing Queensbury Rules here.

Then it was down to dirty fighting and she still beat him.

We've seen her beat Ser Loras with a sword and we also know from the books that she refused to marry a man who couldn't beat her in combat and hadn't found one, so I think it's safe to say that even if the Hound had been in top form, she could have beaten him.

podgemonster · 19-06-2014 6:06am

On top of D&D claiming this is their best episode they have also put it forward as their entry for Emmy consideration.

As much as enjoyed this solid season finale, I do feel that other episodes in the series stand out more, namely Episode 9, with episode 8 and 2 a close second.

I thought the focus at the wall, the pace and tension build in Ep 9 was excellent. The 360 shot, the fight choreography and visual effects were stunning.

Do others share this view or does it even matter as the show will just snubbed again?

Soft Falling Rain · 19-06-2014 7:56am

Aye, I'm not sure where the emmy worthy prosthetics and make up were. I think when people heard that, they were expecting a more ambitious CotF, Bloodraven and indeed an LS reveal.

Paddy Cow · 19-06-2014 8:09am

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Wow, I just had a look on westeros.org and youtube to find people really are up in arms over Brienne defeating Sandor, mainly because "a woman couldn't beat a man." What a load of bollocks, and that's not being PC, it's seeing what the writers clearly laid out.

Firstly, Brienne is a warrior, maybe not as adept a fighter as The Hound but can still best most men. Secondly, The Hound was not 100% healthy. Thirdly, and this is what made the fight so thrilling, they went toe to toe and traded near fatal blows before Brienne bested him. It was down and dirty and on another day, luck would have fallen on Sandor's side, but it didn't on this day.

I am really stunned that this is such a big deal for some people.

And we live in times of equality! Imagine the abuse Brienne would've faced simply for being a female fighter.

Rosy Posy · 19-06-2014 8:33am

abff wrote: »

Just reading through the discussion thread for those who have NOT read the books and came across a comment that surely Jon must be in line for the Lord Commander post now. How someone who has not read the books could reach that conclusion based on what they've seen of the TV series is beyond me.

He's pretty much commanding them already, much more so than in the books at this stage. In the book Thorne and Slynt sent him on a mission to assasinate Mance because Maester Aemon wouldn't let them kill him for oathbreaking with Ygritte. In the show he decides to do so off his own bat. All of the wall scenes have been practically beating the show watchers over the head with how the men look up to Jon and respect his strategy, and there was a scene with Thorne in recent episodes where they said they'd have to hold a choosing for LC. I think it's a pretty obvious conclusion, especially since we've been told since s1 that Jon was made the Bear's steward as he was being groomed for command.

Rosy Posy · 19-06-2014 8:35am

Blay wrote: »

Westeros.org has some of the most anal ASOIAF fans in the world, some of them just live to find faults with the show. A few weeks ago they were moaning that Oathkeeper(the sword) wasn't good enough. You can't ****ing see the thing in the books, sorry if the tv show didn't consult you for your personal image of how it looks:pac:

How much more decoration do they want on it?:pac: The thing is already bordering on the ridiculous;

This is the show prop;

http://i.imgur.com/K6jfpoy.jpg

One of the reasons I don't contribute to that forum

Rosy Posy · 19-06-2014 8:40am

Paddy Cow wrote: »

And we live in times of equality! Imagine the abuse Brienne would've faced simply for being a female fighter.

It's unusual but not unheard of- the Mormonts, Meera Reed and Obara Sand spring to mind. Lyanna Stark was supposed to have been pretty tough too. I imagine most of the abuse would have been because of her size and plainness, the fighting was just the icing on the cake.

Sleepy · 19-06-2014 9:08am

Blay wrote: »

Westeros.org has some of the most anal ASOIAF fans in the world, some of them just live to find faults with the show. A few weeks ago they were moaning that Oathkeeper(the sword) wasn't good enough. You can't ****ing see the thing in the books, sorry if the tv show didn't consult you for your personal image of how it looks:pac:

How much more decoration do they want on it?:pac: The thing is already bordering on the ridiculous;

This is the show prop;

http://i.imgur.com/K6jfpoy.jpg

I can understand some of the reaction tbh. In a sword-fight, I'd expect Brienne to win as the more skilled with the blade and having more endurance than most men (mentioned in the books) but in a down and dirty brawl such as was depicted I'd have expected the hound to win. A fight like that tends to be won by the person who knows the most dirty tricks and who has the more vicious nature, neither of which are attributes I'd have attached to Brienne.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that she won and I enjoyed the scrap immensely but I can see a character based argument for it being "wrong" for her to win rather than simply a sexist one.

Daith · 19-06-2014 9:17am

Sleepy wrote: »

I can understand some of the reaction tbh. In a sword-fight, I'd expect Brienne to win as the more skilled with the blade and having more endurance than most men (mentioned in the books) but in a down and dirty brawl such as was depicted I'd have expected the hound to win. A fight like that tends to be won by the person who knows the most dirty tricks and who has the more vicious nature, neither of which are attributes I'd have attached to Brienne.

Even so The Hound was already wounded, tired, probably malnourished and had been on the move for months with different encounters. He wasn't at his best.

Paddy Cow · 19-06-2014 9:27am

Sleepy wrote: »

I can understand some of the reaction tbh. In a sword-fight, I'd expect Brienne to win as the more skilled with the blade and having more endurance than most men (mentioned in the books) but in a down and dirty brawl such as was depicted I'd have expected the hound to win. A fight like that tends to be won by the person who knows the most dirty tricks and who has the more vicious nature, neither of which are attributes I'd have attached to Brienne.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that she won and I enjoyed the scrap immensely but I can see a character based argument for it being "wrong" for her to win rather than simply a sexist one.

Brienne fought like a knight at first but when it got dirty, she played the dirtiest. She won by beating him over the head with a rock.

username123 · 19-06-2014 9:40am

The whole point of her speech to Arya was to explain that until she was trained to fight she fought with boys anyway, untrained, so that's where she learned her dirty tricks.

Had the Hound been in top form it was still an even match up. We haven't seen Brienne lose a one on one fight, yet.

TimeToShine · 19-06-2014 9:42am

To be fair having the Hound lose to Brienne devalues his ability. Brienne is good but there is no evidence to indicate that she's great. She beat Loras, who is mostly a jouster, in a melee. She struggled against a weakened Jaime. An injured Hound would have made short work of her if this were the books. Hell, most schmuck knights would have. She says herself her biggest advantage is being underestimated.

However, if we take the show as a separate entity (which it is) then it makes sense. This is probably where most of disagreements arise. In the show Brienne has been painted as a very good swordswoman on par with any man in the seven kingdoms, so complaining about her beating the same Hound is a bit silly.

If you constantly equate the book and the show there will always be stuff to complain about.

Sleepy · 19-06-2014 9:43am

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Brienne fought like a knight at first but when it got dirty, she played the dirtiest. She won by beating him over the head with a rock.

And beat Sandor in knightly combat before biting off his ear in the ensuing brawl...

I don't have any problem with it in the show, it was a brilliant scrap!

It's just a deviation from Brienne's character as it was portrayed both in the books and in the show to date. We've seen her to be a fearsome warrior with a sword but we've never been shown her as a semi-feral street-fighter whereas that's exactly how we picture Sandor: the man's nickname is "the hound" and it's not just for the dogs on his shield: it's for the side of his nature which should, in theory, make him better at this type of fighting than Brienne.

Daith makes the good point that we're seeing a weakened and dispirited Clegane and that contributes to the scene working for me. I'm just saying that I can see why some have a problem with it and pointing out that it's not automatically down to sexism.

Dyr · 19-06-2014 10:03am

Sleepy wrote: »

. A fight like that tends to be won by the person who knows the most dirty tricks and who has the more vicious nature, neither of which are attributes I'd have attached to Brienne.

You're basing this on what?

Mickeroo · 19-06-2014 10:12am

Sleepy wrote: »

It's just a deviation from Brienne's character as it was portrayed both in the books and in the show to date. We've seen her to be a fearsome warrior with a sword but we've never been shown her as a semi-feral street-fighter whereas that's exactly how we picture Sandor: the man's nickname is "the hound" and it's not just for the dogs on his shield: it's for the side of his nature which should, in theory, make him better at this type of fighting than Brienne.

Pretty sure the Hound got his nickname from being Joffrey's guard/lap dog all his life rather than his fighting skills.

Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

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