What should the permitted wind noise levels be from a wind farm

fclauson · 05-03-2015 11:29pm #1

The Government are about to announce the new Wind Farm Guidelines in which they will specify what the acceptable wind noise limits are

What do you think they should be?

WHO = World Health Organisation
WEDG06 = Irish Wind Energy Design Guidelines 2006

Macha · 06-03-2015 10:15am

Just so pollsters are aware, a 1km distance would leave 9.4% of the country open to wind turbines, according to IWEA. I don't know if that includes any other limitations like potential exclusions from Natura 2000 sites.

fclauson · 06-03-2015 10:40am

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

The following might also help you

http://airo.maynoothuniversity.ie/external-content/nirsa-wind-strategy-mapping

and the maps at the back of this document are what Macha is referring too

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/globalassets/documents/raise/publications/2013/environment/12813.pdf

Old diesel · 06-03-2015 11:44am

Macha wrote: »

Just so pollsters are aware, a 1km distance would leave 9.4% of the country open to wind turbines, according to IWEA. I don't know if that includes any other limitations like potential exclusions from Natura 2000 sites.

Its time for wind energy to get with the programme in my view and see about reducing the amount of land required for wind energy.

If the WHO set a limit - I would have a higher regard for that then what a wind developer says is wanted.

Don't forget - we have CONSIDERABLY more land mass in WATER - so how do we develop our offshore resources going forward - offshore turbines for example.

The other option- which wind energy won't like - is to design future turbine tech so it meets WHO limits in a manner that's guaranteed

Im going for WHO target limit - simply because I TRUST the WHO more then an industry that refuses to work to best possible standards

Edit - apologies - im assuming whats being claimed is that 9.4 percent ISN'T enough - ive made above comments on that basis

Old diesel · 06-03-2015 1:01pm

But moving on - the big questions here is how do we actually plan peoples LIVING going forward.

The big driver of concern I think for many people in terms of wind turbine concerns are the following.

1) Concerns about impact on living and sleeping in the home

2) Concerns about impact on industry in the local area - this might be tourism or horse industry or other such issues.

Id put forward the theory that if WHO has noise recommendations LOWER then what wind energy guidelines propose - it will be VERY difficulty to get people beiieving that the Irish noise level limits are sufficient

Big issue here is that we are planning wind energy in isolation from whats going on round it.

I accept theres a need to move away from the one off house - but we need to start seeing a plan for that - not just abandon people because abandoning is the "cheap option".

Thts the key really - people feel abandoned - that their concerns don't matter - and they fear being left in a nightmare situaton that they may only be able to get out of if they can afford a considerable amount of money.

Finally - l don't care how rare pro wind energy people say such incidents are - BUT - to me - hearing reports of people abandoning their homes completely due to issues - that's a MAJOR turnoff for people. In fact id go as far as to put forward the idea that most Anti wind concerns START from reading of such incidents.

Sorry for going off topic guys - but its such a big issue - so many things to look at

Macha · 06-03-2015 4:42pm

What I honestly don't get is that road traffic creates far higher noise pollution than wind turbines and much closer to houses but it doesn't seem to get so much attention.

Old diesel · 06-03-2015 5:20pm

Macha wrote: »

What I honestly don't get is that road traffic creates far higher noise pollution than wind turbines and much closer to houses but it doesn't seem to get so much attention.

As I understand it - im no expert - the major concern with wind turbine noise is the infrasound.

The infrasound apparently can still cause issues even though its not in the normal hearing range.

And its alleged wind turbines produce a lot of infrasound - or low frequency noise.

In any case - the Irish limit for noise from turbines is HIGHER then what the WHO recommends for night time noise.

In any case - what im more worried about isn't so much whose right or wrong on turbines - but actually achieving good outcomes

The whole whose right or wrong on turbines causes issues because those who believe turbines are great - and no issue at all - believe they are right - and opponents believe they are right.

The key moving forward is to aim to ensure that issues people are concerned about don't araise.

And strive to ensure that whatever noise or not a turbine actually makes - its doesn't intrude into normal everyday living.

Old diesel · 06-03-2015 5:31pm

But the big question is - why are the Aussies setting a limit of 5 to 7 db BELOW the new irish proposed guideline outlined above - and WHY are the WHO aiming for 30 db as a target.

Especlally if as I understand it - each db extra DOUBLES noise

And where does 42 db actually come from - who proposed it - and how has it being validated as safe/problem free - if its ABOVE WHO recommendations.

TheChizler · 06-03-2015 5:35pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Especlally if as I understand it - each db extra DOUBLES noise

More like 3 dB if it's power related. But human hearing works more on a logarithmic scale, so something 3 dB louder won't appear twice as loud.

Macha · 06-03-2015 5:50pm

Old diesel wrote: »

As I understand it - im no expert - the major concern with wind turbine noise is the infrasound.

The infrasound apparently can still cause issues even though its not in the normal hearing range.

And its alleged wind turbines produce a lot of infrasound - or low frequency noise.

OK so can you link to the WHO paper talking about infrasound and explaining the problem with it?

And fclausen, are the limits you're talking about above infrasound levels or all sound levels?

djpbarry · 06-03-2015 7:07pm

Old diesel wrote: »

But the big question is - why are the Aussies setting a limit of 5 to 7 db BELOW the new irish proposed guideline outlined above…

Because they can afford to? There’s a lot of open space in Oz. Besides, a difference of 5 – 7 dB would be virtually imperceptible.

Old diesel wrote: »

…and WHY are the WHO aiming for 30 db as a target.

30 dB is what you’d expect a sound meter to read in a completely “quiet” room. For the purposes of comparison, recording studios tend to aim for 20 dB as their target background noise.

Old diesel · 06-03-2015 8:42pm

djpbarry wrote: »

Because they can afford to? There’s a lot of open space in Oz. Besides, a difference of 5 – 7 dB would be virtually imperceptible.
30 dB is what you’d expect a sound meter to read in a completely “quiet” room. For the purposes of comparison, recording studios tend to aim for 20 dB as their target background noise.

My point was mainly about the WHO - im at a loss as to why WHO are saying one thing - BUT we in Ireland are going higher.

The point is - people are more likely to be comfortable with a WHO target - but less comfy with a figure pulled out of someones backside to ensure enough wind farms can be built

fclauson · 06-03-2015 10:47pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

TheChizler wrote: »

More like 3 dB if it's power related. But human hearing works more on a logarithmic scale, so something 3 dB louder won't appear twice as loud.

Those who want understand distance law please read http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-distancelaw.htm

for loudness comparisons then take a look at
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm

Macha wrote: »

What I honestly don't get is that road traffic creates far higher noise pollution than wind turbines and much closer to houses but it doesn't seem to get so much attention.

Macha - this is where a lot of people don't understand. Road traffic or even air traffic (I lived under the approach of Heathrow for a number of years) all benefit from a couple of characteristics which wind farms do not

1) the "Doppler Effect"
2) quieter at night
3) a degree of predictability
4) gaps in the traffic

Wind farms
1) do not move !!
2) are perceived as louder at night as the background masking noises disappear (not such thing as a Silent Night if you live near a wind far)
3) have no specific rhythm - and limited predictability
4) are omni present, continuous, and inescapable

If you do not believe the above then go and stay near a wind farm - not for a hour, or a few hours or even a day - but for a week or a month or a year

Macha wrote: »

OK so can you link to the WHO paper talking about infrasound and explaining the problem with it?

I would like to think http://nieuwerustnoisewatch.org/wp-content/documents/peer-reviewed-articles/15-B-M%20J-Noise.pdf report

written by
Christopher D Hanning, honorary consultant in sleep medicine, Sleep Disorders Service, University Hospitals of Leicester, Leicester General Hospital, Leicester LE5 4PW, UK

Alun Evans, professor emeritus, Centre for Public Health, Queen’s University of Belfast, Institute of Clinical Science B, Belfast, UK

would have some degree of credibility

another good pearson to search for is Professor White
http://oto2.wustl.edu/cochlea/wind.html

And fclausen, are the limits you're talking about above infrasound levels or all sound levels?

This again is where there is lot of misunderstanding - what I have shown is dB(A) calc which would filter out low frequency and infrasound. A better guide would be a dB(C) or dB(G) graph correctly interpreted

hope that gives some answers

fclauson · 06-03-2015 10:58pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

I wanted to further expand on that unpredictable noise level - in the attached you will see an example of amplitude modulation - a pulsating effect of some 10dB(A) variation every second (try that with you high-fi while it plays a monotone signal at low frequency)

This effect is caused by a number of factors but here it was recorded at low wind speeds (around 4m/s at hub height) and was the turbine "gasping" to try and gain traction through the air

Also note the time - it was 3am in the morning at 1300 meters (1 mile) from the wind farm

The background noise level at this time & wind speed would be of the order of 25dB(A) so what you are seeing is a pulse effect of 10dB(A) when its very quiet otherwise

Old diesel · 07-03-2015 12:10am

Thank you for that Francis

I suppose the question is - what should the actual noise levels be.

Tbh - I feel the aim isn't okay - aim for a set figure.

But work towards an outcome for Residents living nearby - that's problem free for the residents.

So what sort of figures do we need to aim for - to achieve problem free living for Residents living near wind turbines.

the Setback distance is a pretty controversial issue - and a difficult one to resolve if we insist on doing what wind developers want us to do - rather then actually looking at peoples need to live.

theres a definite argument to be made for moving away from large numbers of one off houses and moving towards settlements of towns and villages.

But we haven't started planning for this - because weve yet to grasp the idea that while low carbon is vital - people actually have to LIVE as well.

Macha · 07-03-2015 12:15am

Hang on, first its the WHO or nobody. Now you've posted a different source. I can find plenty of sources that dispute the WHO limits on noise.

And I'm finding it hard to believe you wrote that wind turbines have no rhythm

fclauson · 07-03-2015 2:22am

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Macha wrote: »

Hang on, first its the WHO or nobody. Now you've posted a different source. I can find plenty of sources that dispute the WHO limits on noise.

And I'm finding it hard to believe you wrote that wind turbines have no rhythm

Perhaps before I answer and get dragged down a role of semantics I should ask you to vote - what limit would you thinks is correct?

djpbarry · 07-03-2015 11:24am

fclauson wrote: »

Macha - this is where a lot of people don't understand. Road traffic or even air traffic (I lived under the approach of Heathrow for a number of years) all benefit from a couple of characteristics which wind farms do not

1) the "Doppler Effect"
2) quieter at night
3) a degree of predictability
4) gaps in the traffic

Wind farms
1) do not move !!
2) are perceived as louder at night as the background masking noises disappear (not such thing as a Silent Night if you live near a wind far)
3) have no specific rhythm - and limited predictability
4) are omni present, continuous, and inescapable

How is the Doppler effect a "benefit"? How is road traffic quieter at night? How is road traffic more predictable than noise from a wind turbine? How are wind turbines perceived as being louder at night while road traffic is not? What kind of wind turbine does not have a specific rhythm? You say gaps in the traffic are a good thing, then in your next post state that periodic variations in amplitude in the noise from a wind turbine are a bad thing - that's a contradiction.

Your argument is making very little sense.

Old diesel · 07-03-2015 11:32am

Now something else just occurred to me

What should the recommended wind nois levels be from a wind farm.

When I was thinking WHO limits - I was thinking AT THE HOME - not at the farm itself.

The vital thing - is - ensuring that wind turbines are problem free - so if there is no noise issues for the residents at 40 db - then that's okay.

If there is noise intrusion - we have an issue.

Whats important isn't what the studies say - whether that's positive or negative - but the actual real world outcome for the residents - and what impact the wind farm has on their living.

Clearly you may not be able to avoid all issues - hence why I mention the need to move away from large numbers of people living in one off houses.

But that needs to be planned for too - and is unlikely to happen overnight given that we struggle to have enough houses for those in need at the moment - for perspective on the wider housing issue - theres over 8,000 on the housing waiting list in Cork City council afaik.

Its a tricky issue - but part of the cause of the issue is the sloppiness of the actual wind industry itself - and Irish policymakers

fclauson · 07-03-2015 11:39am

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

djpbarry wrote: »

How is the Doppler effect a "benefit"? How is road traffic quieter at night? How is road traffic more predictable than noise from a wind turbine? How are wind turbines perceived as being louder at night while road traffic is not? What kind of wind turbine does not have a specific rhythm? You say gaps in the traffic are a good thing, then in your next post state that periodic variations in amplitude in the noise from a wind turbine are a bad thing - that's a contradiction.

Your argument is making very little sense.

Have you voted as yet - will answer you questions once you have

Old diesel · 07-03-2015 11:42am

djpbarry wrote: »

How is the Doppler effect a "benefit"? How is road traffic quieter at night? How is road traffic more predictable than noise from a wind turbine? How are wind turbines perceived as being louder at night while road traffic is not? What kind of wind turbine does not have a specific rhythm? You say gaps in the traffic are a good thing, then in your next post state that periodic variations in amplitude in the noise from a wind turbine are a bad thing - that's a contradiction.

Your argument is making very little sense.

No Francis is making sense

Road traffic noise is less at night because theres LESS traffic at night.

Wind turbines are perceived as noisier at night because of less impact from OTHER noises. This is also why people perceive them more in a rural environment because a rural environment is GENERALLY quieter then a city environment.

Gaps in the traffic may be longer - depending on where you are of course - and the turbine noise seems from Francis's graph above to have more impact over a SHORTER period of time.

Do note that hes showing changes of 10 db over an incrediably short period of time - seconds - AND ITS CONSTANT.

The constant aspect of the noise is a major concern raised by those with issues. A jet plane flys over - it comes and goes quickly - and is gone.

But the wind turbine noise is there in the background.

A TD - John Halligan I think - went down to meet residents in his area (Waterford) who had issues with the local wind farm.

He made the comment - that the noise HE NOTICED while in the residents homes was like having a tractor running 24/7 in the background.

That's the key thing the TD actually noticed the issue HIMSELF

He was NOT impressed

https://www.facebook.com/johnhalliganwaterford/posts/796506477080054

Old diesel · 07-03-2015 11:46am

Look lads we are going around in circles here - and I apologies for that.

My only interest in this whole thing - is that I want as many communities as possible to be able to continue as communities - and for Rural Ireland as a place of communities to have the best future possible.

I want to see the energy solutions planned as much as possible to allow this

I want to plan for peoples living - heck I even accept that we need to move away from one off housing in many cases to help drive change where its NEEDED.

But people still need to live and that must be planned for

fclauson · 07-03-2015 12:12pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

to give you good for thought (an remember wind farm noise in constant and NOT LIKE ROAD TRAFFIC which comes and go which each vehicle)

This is a live situation - local residents are being inflicted with a 3 to 9 db(A) increase over background noise

AND THIS IS NOT EVEN THE MAX PERMITTED UNDER THE NEW GUIDELINES

which could permit 15dB(A) increase

Wind farm noise is typically measured in L90 where as road traffic is measured in L10

Old diesel · 07-03-2015 12:17pm

Top notch post as always Francis

fclauson · 07-03-2015 12:44pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Now lets look at a motorway

See how quiet night times are compared to what is being permitted in a rural location in Ireland

So the comment its like a road is nonsense

taken from http://www.nra.ie/environment/new-noise-good-practice-g/GPG_SB_20122013.pdf

Old diesel · 07-03-2015 1:53pm

Am I reading it right - that in early hours - the recorded motorway noise is as low as 30 db

The question id put forward - is how close to the motorway is that noise measurement taken????

IF something is 500 metres away - it should be possible to keep noise levels lower then if your literally right next to it.

Now to illustrate how ANOTHER industry responds to noise RULES - Daf the truck manufacturer just bought out a new silent version of a couple of its trucks.

Why???? - because there are restrictions in some cities for deliveries at night due to noise - the quieter truck is able to operate in the restricted times because its quieter.

If Daf were a wind developer - theyd whine and moan about how terrible it is that we have these rules - instead - its an OPPORTUNITY to develop new solutions.

fclauson · 07-03-2015 5:02pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

3.66 Figure 3.3 shows the results of measurements taken at a location which is a short distance from a motorway. It shows a very different daily variation of noise levels from the commuter route, typical of a steady flow of long-distance traffic. A clear dip is seen in the small hours, but there are no morning and evening peaks. LAeq readings are consistently around 3dB below the LA10 readings, as on the commuter route, except for an unexplained peak at 08:00 and a smaller one at 10:00. These do not affect either the LA10 or LA90 readings, so must be short, intense events, possibly the local resident leaving and returning by car, and passing close to the microphone. Clearly, this event would not be included in a noise model and should be excluded from any validation of a noise prediction for this location.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-03-2015 5:11pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Its time for wind energy to get with the programme in my view and see about reducing the amount of land required for wind energy.

Just a reminder that wind farms only take up the space required for the plinth.

All the other land can still be used for agriculture, forestry or tourism.

As someone who lives in an urban area you'll need to do a lot of convincing to get me to subsidise a level of background noise I won't have. Wasn't the statistic something like 40:1 in terms of costs of providing services to rural areas , mainly paid for by urbanites ?

Regarding the noise levels, can someone compare them to what urban dwellers have to put up ? I've lived in villages where nightly traffic noise interfered with sleep.

Just to remind people that wind turbine noise is only an annoyance, it's not remotely close to what most of us put up with every day.
From the World Health Organization
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31661789

The WHO's safe listening times are:

85 dB - the level of noise inside a car - eight hours
90 dB - lawn mower - two hours 30 minutes
95 dB - an average motorcycle - 47 minutes
100 dB - car horn or underground train - 15 minutes
105 dB - mp3 player at maximum volume - four minutes
115 dB - loud rock concert - 28 seconds
120 dB - vuvuzela or sirens - nine seconds

LOL at background +5dB

http://dublincitydevel.sonitussystems.com/
The latest averaged #noise level at Ballyfermot Civic Centre is 57.38 dB(A).

Noise maps http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment/noise-maps-and-action-plans

Markcheese · 07-03-2015 5:15pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Am I reading it right - that in early hours - the recorded motorway noise is as low as 30 db

The question id put forward - is how close to the motorway is that noise measurement taken????

IF something is 500 metres away - it should be possible to keep noise levels lower then if your literally right next to it.

Now to illustrate how ANOTHER industry responds to noise RULES - Daf the truck manufacturer just bought out a new silent version of a couple of its trucks.

Why???? - because there are restrictions in some cities for deliveries at night due to noise - the quieter truck is able to operate in the restricted times because its quieter.

If Daf were a wind developer - theyd whine and moan about how terrible it is that we have these rules - instead - its an OPPORTUNITY to develop new solutions.

To follow your logic motorways , n roads and R roads would be shut down in the evenings -and re-open to traffic at 7 ish -
Incidentally 30- 40 % of fuel used in the country passes within 50 meters of bedroom window - if that has to travel during office hours then expect your diesel to increase in price - the trucks start at about 3am- I don't really notice it - never heard any complaints from the thousands of people in the area that the trucks pass - ( whitegate- aghada- Rostellan- saleen and ballinacurra villages before they hit the dual carraigeway)-

fclauson · 07-03-2015 7:30pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

from your post

You have fallen in to the trap of not understanding noise descriptors

LDEN is a specific calculation which is not easy to equate to L90 used to measure wind farms

take a read of https://www.noisemeters.com/apps/ldn-calculator.asp

also see http://t1.services.defra.gov.uk/wps/portal/noise/help

The day, evening, night level, Lden is a logarithmic composite of the Lday, Levening, and Lnight levels but with 5 dB(A) being added to the Levening value and 10 dB(A) being added to the Lnight value.

So going back to you noise map most of the areas annotated in your town setting would be QUIETER than the noise experienced near a wind farm at night !!

You have also given examples of acceptable WHO limits - remember if you live near a wind farm 8hrs of noise would be ok - but its not like that - its 25x7x365 (dependent on wind) so again it does not take into account cumulative effect - let alone using the Lden calculation to give greater protection at night

Turning to the method used to provide the noise measurement levels is also skewed towards the wind farm - for example why when calculating the noise levels is wind speed at the measurement site not used (its used from a standardized 10M wind speed at he turbine location) . I have data where at hub height it was 8m/s (about the speed where max noise is produced) and at local dwellings it was close to zero.

Additionally when you are (as I am 240ft (turbine height) + 450 ft (hill height) below the hub of the turbine you zilch sound absorption by the ground.

Finally the prediction model for wind turbines does not work - at my site I should receive around 36dB(A)Laeq or 33dB(A) MAXIMIUM - but this is not the case we have plots where the measurements are around 36dB(A)L90 - 3db about the prediction.

fclauson · 07-03-2015 7:34pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Markcheese wrote: »

To follow your logic motorways , n roads and R roads would be shut down in the evenings -and re-open to traffic at 7 ish -
Incidentally 30- 40 % of fuel used in the country passes within 50 meters of bedroom window - if that has to travel during office hours then expect your diesel to increase in price - the trucks start at about 3am- I don't really notice it - never heard any complaints from the thousands of people in the area that the trucks pass - ( whitegate- aghada- Rostellan- saleen and ballinacurra villages before they hit the dual carraigeway)-

Please look at the NRA graph I posted - a truck passing would cause a large L10 event a moderate Laeq measurement but probably no movement on an L90 measurement.

Did you know that if you used the measurement methods currently used to measure wind farm noise and you had a Harrier Jump Jet start up and depart in front of you it would not be detected by the noise measurement descriptor (L90) used to measure wind farm.

Fancy that 100dB+ right in front of you and the methods used to measure a wind farm would ignore it.

This brings me back the amplitude modulation chart I posted - those pulses sent out by the wind farm are ignored by the noise descriptor used to measure wind farm noise - now how convenient is that !!

fclauson · 07-03-2015 8:03pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Just done a quick calc

42db(A) which is the proposed wind farm guidelines is a Lden of 48.3

You can check my maths by doing (remember to use logarithmic maths)
that ((42*12) + (42+5)*4 +(42+10)*8)

So looking at the Noise map posted - its all those areas in yellow next to those busy roads

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content//WaterWasteEnvironment/NoiseMapsandActionPlans/Documents/DCCLden2012.pdf

Old diesel · 07-03-2015 8:52pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Just a reminder that wind farms only take up the space required for the plinth.

All the other land can still be used for agriculture, forestry or tourism.

As someone who lives in an urban area you'll need to do a lot of convincing to get me to subsidise a level of background noise I won't have. Wasn't the statistic something like 40:1 in terms of costs of providing services to rural areas , mainly paid for by urbanites ?

Regarding the noise levels, can someone compare them to what urban dwellers have to put up ? I've lived in villages where nightly traffic noise interfered with sleep.

Just to remind people that wind turbine noise is only an annoyance, it's not remotely close to what most of us put up with every day.
From the World Health Organization
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31661789

LOL at background +5dB

http://dublincitydevel.sonitussystems.com/
The latest averaged #noise level at Ballyfermot Civic Centre is 57.38 dB(A).

Noise maps http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment/noise-maps-and-action-plans

In terms of the space argument - what I meant was - if you have a wind farm - and the turbines on it are spread over 1000 acres of land - how do you produce more wind power in that 1000 acres.

Another way to look at it would be - how might one REDUCE the percentage of land in the country that's required for wind farms

Heres one TDs description of what he found when he visited 2 houses where residents reported issues.

https://www.facebook.com/johnhalliganwaterford/posts/796506477080054

The description is the TDs OWN based on what HE found

Thing is - its not wind energy itself that concerns me - but when I hear of issues being reported - id like to see those with the relevant expertise in these matters actually get to the bottom of them.

Its what ive come to expect - in other areas - if the car gives issues - you expect them to be fixed (for example)

fclauson · 07-03-2015 11:05pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

For those who want know about traffic noise then this might be of interest

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research/newsalert/pdf/louder_motorways_can_drown_wind_turbine_noise_47si9_en.pdf

Birdnuts · 08-03-2015 12:04am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Just a reminder that wind farms only take up the space required for the plinth.

All the other land can still be used for agriculture, forestry or tourism.

As someone who lives in an urban area you'll need to do a lot of convincing to get me to subsidise a level of background noise I won't have. Wasn't the statistic something like 40:1 in terms of costs of providing services to rural areas , mainly paid for by urbanites ?

Regarding the noise levels, can someone compare them to what urban dwellers have to put up ? I've lived in villages where nightly traffic noise interfered with sleep.

Just to remind people that wind turbine noise is only an annoyance, it's not remotely close to what most of us put up with every day.
From the World Health Organization
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31661789

LOL at background +5dB

http://dublincitydevel.sonitussystems.com/
The latest averaged #noise level at Ballyfermot Civic Centre is 57.38 dB(A).

Noise maps http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment/noise-maps-and-action-plans

Utterly irrelevant comparison given the normal background noise in rural areas compared to a city. As for windfarms and tourism. Try telling this lady her business can function next to a wind farm

http://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/business/turbines-appalling-says-castle-owner-1-6260094

As for space takin up by wind farms. 250,000 acres of windfarm sprawl is needed to match the theoretical output of a conventional power station. Wind farms need an extensive network of pylons and service roads which adds to their ugly footprint in sensitive landscapes.

http://www.cfact.org/2013/11/02/u-k-takes-down-infographic-showing-footprint-of-nuclear-vs-renewables/

fclauson · 08-03-2015 12:46am

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Just a reminder that wind farms only take up the space required for the plinth.

All the other land can still be used for agriculture, forestry or tourism.

unfortunate wrong the Carrickaduff in Donegal requires felling of 121.4 hectares of trees

http://www.carrickaduffwindfarm.com/carrickaduffWF/pdf/Environmental/EIS/Chapter%2011%20-%20Landscape.pdf

the digging out of 566,750 cu of peat
3675 lorries of concrete
98 artics of steel

Capt'n Midnight · 08-03-2015 2:33am

fclauson wrote: »

Finally the prediction model for wind turbines does not work - at my site I should receive around 36dB(A)Laeq or 33dB(A) MAXIMIUM - but this is not the case we have plots where the measurements are around 36dB(A)L90 - 3db about the prediction.

you are getting 36dB

This Daytime map of Dublin only goes down to 40dB and only for the centre of the 500 Acres in the middle of the Phoenix Park. http://www.dublincity.ie

Anything coloured in this night time map is 9dB above what you are getting.

You'll have to explain the difference in the lden , especially the bit about penalties again , because it's easier to get used to continuous noise than changes in noise level

Capt'n Midnight · 08-03-2015 2:50am

fclauson wrote: »

unfortunate wrong the Carrickaduff in Donegal requires felling of 121.4 hectares of trees

http://www.carrickaduffwindfarm.com/carrickaduffWF/pdf/Environmental/EIS/Chapter%2011%20-%20Landscape.pdf

the digging out of 566,750 cu of peat
3675 lorries of concrete
98 artics of steel

that document doesn't even contain the words steel or concrete

and peat is mentioned as

Where possible, the peat that has been excavated and not used elsewhere will be
stored with the vegetated side facing up so as to promote the growth of vegetation
across the surface of the stored peat within the borrow pit area. Following these works
therefore, the predicted impact is therefore a Long term, Slight Negative impact.

so we're still at [Citation required]

BTW Coilte are in the business of harvesting trees not just felling them

Turns out the doc you were actually looking for is
http://www.carrickaduffwindfarm.com/carrickaduffWF/pdf/Planning/Planning%20Documents/Planning%20Application%20Cover%20Report.pdf which says

The proposed development will involve identifiable change (permanent or temporary
habitat loss) of approximately 129.58 hectares of habitat, equivalent to approximately
3% of the study area. The vast majority of this (approximately 94%) will be low
biodiversity value forestry habitats (conifer plantation and recently-felled woodland
that will soon be replanted with forestry).

fclauson · 08-03-2015 8:09am

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You'll have to explain the difference in the lden , especially the bit about penalties again , because it's easier to get used to continuous noise than changes in noise level

LDEN =LOG(1/24*((10^(42/10))*12+(10^((42+5)/10)*4)+(10^((42+10)/10)*8)))*10

1/24 = to give it as an hourly figure
42 = the Laeq(1hr) noise level of the period
12 = hours daytime (7am->7pm)
4 = hours evening time (7pm->11pm)
8 = hours night time (11pm ->7am)
+5 = evening penalty
42+10 = night time penalty (the only 10 which is nothing to do with the log base)
all of the other 10's because its log base 10 we are calculating in

Lnight is a calculation just of the night time portion of the above (i.e. contains no penalty)

the proposed 42 db(A) Laeq limit - which will be converted to a 40db(A)La90 limit

(for those who do not understand La90 it typically takes a 10 min period uses the lowest 90 percentile i.e. of a 10 min period measuring in 100ms slices only 10% of those slices are used for doing the measurement and its the lowest valued slices which get selected - this is to try and obtain the noise with out dogs barking, birds chirruping etc and just measure what is believed to be the constant noise of a wind farm)

Old diesel · 08-03-2015 11:15am

fclauson wrote: »

unfortunate wrong the Carrickaduff in Donegal requires felling of 121.4 hectares of trees

http://www.carrickaduffwindfarm.com/carrickaduffWF/pdf/Environmental/EIS/Chapter%2011%20-%20Landscape.pdf

the digging out of 566,750 cu of peat
3675 lorries of concrete
98 artics of steel

This highlights how turbines on the wind farm are actually spread out - and its this "spread out" nature that brings the turbines closer to homes.

While we are talking noise here - the question also merits asking AGAIN - how do we calculate a satisfactory setback distance from homes - and how do we design turbines to actually work well near homes/in communities.

That's part of the issue I think - does the guy DESIGNING the turbine INTEND them to be 500 metres from homes when the turbines are 160 metres high.

The one thing ive NEVER read in all the various claims about wind farms being fine - is a manufacturer claiming that their model x660 160 metre 2.5 metre turbine is DESIGNED to operate at a 500 metre setback.

Youd think this would be a GREAT selling point for a turbine designed to be 500 metres away from homes - so why haven't I heard a manufacturer claim this????

Old diesel · 08-03-2015 11:20am

At the end of the day - its a tricky situation - we DO need to address climate - but people in homes actually have to live.

So how do we get the balance right - even if we may have to consider moving some people from their current one off houses - that's an issue in itself - because if someone needs to move out of their home - where do they move to - and who will pay for it.

Those supporting wind will say - residents can live in their current homes - that's fantastic

So how do we ensure that if we say people can continue living in their homes - how do we ensure this is the case.

After all - all we are doing in that scenario is ensuring that what we promise - is in fact delivered on.

The claim is that wind turbines won't interfere - soensuring this should thus be no problem

Capt'n Midnight · 08-03-2015 11:56pm

Old diesel wrote: »

At the end of the day - its a tricky situation - we DO need to address climate - but people in homes actually have to live.

So how do we get the balance right - even if we may have to consider moving some people from their current one off houses - that's an issue in itself - because if someone needs to move out of their home - where do they move to - and who will pay for it.

Those supporting wind will say - residents can live in their current homes - that's fantastic

So how do we ensure that if we say people can continue living in their homes - how do we ensure this is the case.

After all - all we are doing in that scenario is ensuring that what we promise - is in fact delivered on.

The claim is that wind turbines won't interfere - soensuring this should thus be no problem

At this stage I'd nearly ask if you are a SF supporter because you keep asking the same questions without proposing any sort of solutions other than "No Surrender"

The balance is simple. A good compromise is when everyone is equally dissatisfied, and with pylons and turbines we have objective measurements of distance, noise, electrical field etc. I suppose where we differ is that when I refer to everyone I include those in urban areas who have to put up with similar stuff and whose bills are affected.

Just to reiterate, you can't put wind turbines closer together because it affects the air flow.

Same way if you landing at an airport in a learjet you want to stay at least 8 miles behind an Airbus 380.

The only way to get more power is to interact with more air. This usually means taller turbines with longer blades, there's also more energy higher up so you get that bonus too.
Yes you can add ducts or add more blades but then you are seriously into eyesore territory , you also get more noise because more turbulence , and it's also more expensive. There's a reason why three blade turbines totally dominate the wind industry.

As for moving people the last resort would be a compulsory purchase order. Not an ideal option but it means people can't stonewall forever. Other options are treble glazing and other noise mitigation strategies like planting trees and of course compo. Sometimes I think the last option is key to some protesters.

Moving houses is easy, do a house swap with people from Dublin West. If they can put up with the urban noise and the pylons.

I'm a strong believer in the nocebo effect, especially if there is the prospect of compo.

Other ways of reducing the noise would be to mask it with white noise, this could be done with a water feature though I'm not sure of the frequencies.

Adding those panels they use in sound studios would also reduce the noise in homes. Or the panels they use at the side of motorways
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm
Pageboard over 75mm(3") fiberglass board will absorb 99% at 250Hz

Capt'n Midnight · 09-03-2015 12:21am

Here's a nice little app https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=radonsoft.net.spectralview

it displays sound levels but only relative to the maximum reading on the phone and the free version only goes to 8KHz , an android phone will go to 24Khz , but wind turbine noise is low frequency, and most of the time I've used it there's been a low frequency background

Old diesel · 09-03-2015 11:39am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

At this stage I'd nearly ask if you are a SF supporter because you keep asking the same questions without proposing any sort of solutions other than "No Surrender"

The balance is simple. A good compromise is when everyone is equally dissatisfied, and with pylons and turbines we have objective measurements of distance, noise, electrical field etc. I suppose where we differ is that when I refer to everyone I include those in urban areas who have to put up with similar stuff and whose bills are affected.

Just to reiterate, you can't put wind turbines closer together because it affects the air flow.

Same way if you landing at an airport in a learjet you want to stay at least 8 miles behind an Airbus 380.

The only way to get more power is to interact with more air. This usually means taller turbines with longer blades, there's also more energy higher up so you get that bonus too.
Yes you can add ducts or add more blades but then you are seriously into eyesore territory , you also get more noise because more turbulence , and it's also more expensive. There's a reason why three blade turbines totally dominate the wind industry.

As for moving people the last resort would be a compulsory purchase order. Not an ideal option but it means people can't stonewall forever. Other options are treble glazing and other noise mitigation strategies like planting trees and of course compo. Sometimes I think the last option is key to some protesters.

Moving houses is easy, do a house swap with people from Dublin West. If they can put up with the urban noise and the pylons.

I'm a strong believer in the nocebo effect, especially if there is the prospect of compo.

Other ways of reducing the noise would be to mask it with white noise, this could be done with a water feature though I'm not sure of the frequencies.

Adding those panels they use in sound studios would also reduce the noise in homes. Or the panels they use at the side of motorways
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm
Pageboard over 75mm(3") fiberglass board will absorb 99% at 250Hz

No what id like is for solutions - not just wind - to actually improve.

The problem isn't ME, rural residents, people with concerns about wind.

The problem is a shoddy poor wind industry - that's what needs to change.

Wind turbines are here to stay - regardless of what me or anyone else thinks of them.

I actually want the damn things to develop over time - I don't expect to see a wind turbine 10 feet from another - that's unrealistic.

That's why i said when we have wind turbines spread over 1000 acres - that that we look at how to get more power from that 1000 acres.

You and I disagree - its no problem - we have a different outlook on things - i may well be wrong

I have just become accustomed to things ALWAYS improving whether its cars, tractors, lorries, computers and other stuff.

I accept we need to change - that's why i alluded to people moving - and moving away from one off houses.

If you were to reduce the amount of communities out there - you might actually free up space for wind turbines - whether that's a good idea or not is something open to debate - and the question - is how would one do this fairly.

Old diesel · 09-03-2015 11:58am

Anyway - regarding long term solutions.

Really the long term solutions are likely to involve a number of different scenarios being designed TOGETHER.

So we would plan for energy and living together - rather then completely in isolation from each other.

The reason i don't have solutions - is i don't have the actual expertise to DESIGN the solutions - i really wish i had.

In terms of everyone being equally dissatisfied - is that not an unbelievably negative way of looking at things - why not design solutions - that allow us all to live in harmony with energy, our environment - present and future.

One of the big questions - is how do we design the living solutions of the future - communities and homes of the future - and design them to work BOTH for people and the energy solutions of the future.

The current difficulty with wind is that its being looked at on its own - rather then as part of a wider context of living, community, peoples needs and so many other factors.

We probably will have less communities going forward - which needs to be planned for too.

Its a wider issue then just turbines and Rural Ireland

djpbarry · 09-03-2015 1:54pm

fclauson wrote: »

Have you voted as yet - will answer you questions once you have

I don't have to vote to participate in the discussion.

I'm actually struggling to understand what your argument is at this stage. People living in rural areas should never have to experience any noise whatsoever?

Old diesel · 09-03-2015 3:00pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't have to vote to participate in the discussion.

I'm actually struggling to understand what your argument is at this stage. People living in rural areas should never have to experience any noise whatsoever?

No not any noise whatsoever

but IDEALLY - not noise that interferes unacceptably with normal everyday living and sleeping in their homes.

The problem of course is how do you define what is acceptable and what is not acceptable

Hence the question of the OP - What should the permitted wind noise levels be from a wind farm.

Unfortunately - and I know im to blame at least partially for this - the discussion is going around in circles.

There is a massive debate needed on how we move forward energy wise - the problem begins when we look at wind in complete isolation from EVERYTHING else.

Rather then planning all the vital elements for planning a better including LIVING - low carbon future together.

For example - what would a SUSTAINABLE community look like - how would we design that community to be actually lived in.

So many issues to be tackled - we won't get it down in this thread - but as a society - we might tackle them all by working together.

Its certainly not about giving everyone what they want - but ensuring the best outcome that can be achieved for everyone in a PROPER single tier society moving towards low carbon - might be a good start

fclauson · 09-03-2015 3:43pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

djpbarry wrote: »

...
I'm actually struggling to understand what your argument is at this stage. People living in rural areas should never have to experience any noise whatsoever?

From you info you live in Wandsworth - which is a far cry from rural Ireland.

As an ex Londer who lived in Hammersmith for 20 years I know that you put up with aeroplanes, tube trains etc plus the general rumble of London.

We are not saying that rural living people should never experience noise whatsoever - but the noise level change has to not impact the amenity a dwelling.

If you refere to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuisance_in_English_law and the famous quote from 1879
"what would be a nuisance in Belgrave Square [a residential area] would not necessarily be so in Bermondsey [a smelly industrial area]".

A noise nuisance in Wandsworth would be different to a noise nuisance in rural ireland.

The question is what is an acceptable level - hence the poll

fclauson · 09-03-2015 3:49pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

... Other options are treble glazing

does not work
a) you should be allowed to open you windows when you want
b) triple glazing will not stop for example a frequency of 167Hz which has a wave length of 17,000Km !!

and other noise mitigation strategies like planting trees

that can take 30 years

... Moving houses is easy, do a house swap with people from Dublin West. If they can put up with the urban noise and the pylons.

as an ex Londoner - you have to look at the whole soundscape - in London there are all sort of noises - in the country there are very few - so there is little to mask the noise of wind turbines.

I'm a strong believer in the nocebo effect, especially if there is the prospect of compo.

may well be true in some cases - but not all by any means

Other ways of reducing the noise would be to mask it with white noise, this could be done with a water feature though I'm not sure of the frequencies.

won't work due to frequency (and making you go to the loo all night !!)

Adding those panels they use in sound studios would also reduce the noise in homes. Or the panels they use at the side of motorways
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm
Pageboard over 75mm(3") fiberglass board will absorb 99% at 250Hz

But I want to open my windows

Markcheese · 09-03-2015 4:06pm

"But I want to open my windows"

Do so .

Rural Ireland is a changing soundscape - different sounds now tractors - slurry tankers- milking machine vacuum pumps( there's a sound that travels) , forestry can be fairly noisey too - neighbours dogs drive me nuts - I'd agree that noise reduction and remediation are a good move but would question wether wind development should cease or be made unfeasable because of reasonable noise -
Also since most turbines are high up and in isolated areas they're going to impact relatively few people - so planting and noise reduction fences can help but not if someone one insists on sleeping on a high platform as near as possible to a turbine with a gramophone trumpet in each ear waiting to be disturbed by something -anything -
That said if the turbine has been poorly installed/ sited and causes a major disturbance to a neighbour there has to be some comeback -

fclauson · 09-03-2015 4:21pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Markcheese wrote: »

"But I want to open my windows"

Do so .

Rural Ireland is a changing soundscape - different sounds now tractors - slurry tankers- milking machine vacuum pumps( there's a sound that travels) , forestry can be fairly noisey too - neighbours dogs drive me nuts - I'd agree that noise reduction and remediation are a good move but would question wether wind development should cease or be made unfeasable because of reasonable noise -
Also since most turbines are high up and in isolated areas they're going to impact relatively few people - so planting and noise reduction fences can help but not if someone one insists on sleeping on a high platform as near as possible to a turbine with a gramophone trumpet in each ear waiting to be disturbed by something -anything -
That said if the turbine has been poorly installed/ sited and causes a major disturbance to a neighbour there has to be some comeback -

But should I still be able to hear them inside an super insulated house
walls 450mm wall (100mm block/250mm full fill cavity/100mm block)
500mm of pumped cellulose in the roof
and triple glazing

probably not !!

and I am 1.3km/1 mile from them

What should the permitted wind noise levels be from a wind farm

What should the limits be 7 votes

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