Gardai proposals to ban firearms

sheesh · 17-11-2014 1:09am

BoatMad wrote: »

Unfortunately, my friend , you illustrate the issues we have

This current problem is about handguns, thats the kernel, they have a single use in this state, thats is target shooting. The numbers involved are small compared to holders of ordinary shotguns and bolt action rifles.

Im not aware that Ireland allows any tourist handguns to be brought it.

SO the arguments have to be carefully presented. The farmers can be easily bought off by be told that no provisions affect them etc. Then the TDs just sigh and move on.

Its a tricky debate. Unless all the sports groups right from a-z are directly behind this campaign , it will be an uphill battle.

Its winnable, but it may not be winnable with the current representation

Ah feck! I still think it is stupid I bet you most of the crimes committed using handguns in the state probably either illegally held hand guns or fakes but if you get rid of legally held ones somebody feels they are doing something.

Deaf git · 17-11-2014 1:12am

It is precisely this type of public wrangling that does us no good whatever.

But I am sick & tired of the BS attached to licencing even a basic .22 rifle. When I saw the first commissioners guidelines I thought ordinary Gardai would abide by them, no such bloody luck. Same old lazy, disrespectful crap at the front counter. Same old arbitrary bullshot supers making arbitrary decisions. It was the very same 30 years ago. And there are enough threads here to show my experience is not isolated.
My mail toT Ds basically states-
What I want is a set of rules that protect me as a gun owner and me as a citizen. I want public servants that follow rules and don't chuck fca1 forms in the bin. I want public servants to not waste money on pointless cases. I want an independant appeals process in line with the concepts of natural justice. I want decisions on firearms policy made on good evidence, not hearsay or ignorance. I'm law abiding. I pay taxes and want fair play. I'm not a criminal or a nut. Please tell the Minister to be fair and not simply take as read the advice of a few senior officials.
Now what is wrong with stating this publicly?
Someone is about to say the public will want to ban everything....Well, wake up and smell the coffee, we are heading in that direction as it stands and the public don't give a rats ass about olympic shooting events.

meathstevie · 17-11-2014 1:50am

It's a bit of a sideline remark but I find it rather amazing that AGS as an organisation appears able to direct the Minister rather than the other way around.

Not intending to be disrespectful towards the Gardai, it's a hard enough life at the best of times for the boots on the ground, but isn't a police force's job to shut up and carry out when it comes to law and law making.

It's beyond discussion that firearms policy in general is an issue where AGS should have an input but law making is most definitely the prerogative of elected representatives and this situation definitely looks like senior Gardai dictating the Minister.

BoatMad · 17-11-2014 2:18am

meathstevie wrote: »

It's a bit of a sideline remark but I find it rather amazing that AGS as an organisation appears able to direct the Minister rather than the other way around.

Not intending to be disrespectful towards the Gardai, it's a hard enough life at the best of times for the boots on the ground, but isn't a police force's job to shut up and carry out when it comes to law and law making.

It's beyond discussion that firearms policy in general is an issue where AGS should have an input but law making is most definitely the prerogative of elected representatives and this situation definitely looks like senior Gardai dictating the Minister.

All public servants , whether they are HSE health officials, transport officials , or the gardai have huge involvement in legislation, civil servants or ministers rarely think this stuff up on their own. The gardai have already had a huge involvement in suggesting legislation, particulary in criminal matters or areas within their remit.

BoatMad · 17-11-2014 2:19am

Deaf git wrote: »

It is precisely this type of public wrangling that does us no good whatever.

But I am sick & tired of the BS attached to licencing even a basic .22 rifle. When I saw the first commissioners guidelines I thought ordinary Gardai would abide by them, no such bloody luck. Same old lazy, disrespectful crap at the front counter. Same old arbitrary bullshot supers making arbitrary decisions. It was the very same 30 years ago. And there are enough threads here to show my experience is not isolated.
My mail toT Ds basically states-
What I want is a set of rules that protect me as a gun owner and me as a citizen. I want public servants that follow rules and don't chuck fca1 forms in the bin. I want public servants to not waste money on pointless cases. I want an independant appeals process in line with the concepts of natural justice. I want decisions on firearms policy made on good evidence, not hearsay or ignorance. I'm law abiding. I pay taxes and want fair play. I'm not a criminal or a nut. Please tell the Minister to be fair and not simply take as read the advice of a few senior officials.
Now what is wrong with stating this publicly?
Someone is about to say the public will want to ban everything....Well, wake up and smell the coffee, we are heading in that direction as it stands and the public don't give a rats ass about olympic shooting events.

That's not a bad letter, you are direct , but your not calling anyone " discredited or a liar "

Grizzly 45 · 17-11-2014 2:29am

BoatMad wrote: »

Unfortunately, my friend , you illustrate the issues we have

This current problem is about handguns, thats the kernel, they have a single use in this state, thats is target shooting. The numbers involved are small compared to holders of ordinary shotguns and bolt action rifles.

not aware that Ireland allows any tourist handguns to be brought it.

Thats because we arent allowed or have been able to orgaanise international matches...Ohsorry,the evil IPSC was trying to organise one,but because it was combat shooting ,that honour and about 300k went to Serbia instead.

SO the arguments have to be carefully presented. The farmers can be easily bought off by be told that no provisions affect them etc. Then the TDs just sigh and move on.

Actually,this will affect them,if anyone has the smarts to point out that the most stolen firearms in the country are farmers shotguns that are still carelessly stored by the back door or left in the car.I dont see why they should be exempt from some basic security with their just as dangerous DBBL shotgun as my "deadlier" three shot semi auto.

meathstevie · 17-11-2014 2:49am

BoatMad wrote: »

All public servants , whether they are HSE health officials, transport officials , or the gardai have huge involvement in legislation, civil servants or ministers rarely think this stuff up on their own. The gardai have already had a huge involvement in suggesting legislation, particulary in criminal matters or areas within their remit.

I'm quite familiar with how the world works but I'm still quite amazed at the tone of the document.

.243 · 17-11-2014 9:44am

sheesh wrote: »

Ah feck! I still think it is stupid I bet you most of the crimes committed using handguns in the state probably either illegally held hand guns or fakes but if you get rid of legally held ones somebody feels they are doing something.

You only have to look at dunblane,yes they were leaglly held, the knee jerking happened as the then government had to be seen to tackle "gun crime",the handgun ban came in literally overnight,
"Gun crime" went UP 40% two years after

yubabill1 · 17-11-2014 10:07am

Kryten wrote: »

Bulk licence applications are a terrible idea. It will only succeed in holding up substitutions and new applications by other shooters.
The PTB hold all the cards, so we have no choice but to try to unite and fight what's coming. Sparks, you seem to shoot down everyone's suggestions, but apart from FCP you have no alternative solutions. We are not throwing any discipline under the bus, so to speak, for the greater good. There is no good. I am going to the information session in Harbour house. Get a plan of action together. Basically to do something.

Mass applications is something to consider if/when things escalate - you won't be too worried about subs if this becomes the case, so what - a little inconvenience - shooters will stick together (remember the rod licence thing in 1986? The minister, Brendan Daly had to resign when fishermen refused to pay).

And I think Sparks has been making constructive criticism here - I will wander in to harbour house (where is there a harbour near you, Tommy - anywhere near the airport?) tonight, I'm expecting a fair bit of bluster to emerge at some stage but I might be pleasantly surprised.

yubabill1 · 17-11-2014 10:10am

BoatMad wrote: »

to misquote raiders of the lost ark, don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

A fight suggests we have something to overcome the other side, The fact is were not at a fight , we're not even in the arena, Whatever fight is going on, were not there,

Step one, locate arena

Step two, ask to be able to fight

Step three, don suitable gear

Step four, if you can't win, what are you doing there in the first place.

This is the mistake this community has made, thinking this is a "fight". there is no fight. wise up

Me and you should go out for a pint some night in my home town.

P.S. bring your armoured breastplate.

ntipptop · 17-11-2014 10:57am

has anyone actually got proper stats on stolen firearms, apart from the ags OWN stats ????
I think we need these to be forwarded to the tds. aswell
what I see in the report is that its suggesting that all firearms used in crime, including murders, come from law abiding citizens
could anyone get stats from customs on how many firearms that they have seized ????
Might show what is actually happening in crime land

Sparks · 17-11-2014 11:13am

.243 wrote: »

You only have to look at dunblane,yes they were leaglly held

Actually, they weren't - he'd lied on his application form which under the law at the time means the licence was null and void. But that's the technicality - the real issue was that the police had interviewed him ahead of his licence reapplication because of complaints from parents in the area regarding paedophelia and the recommendation (which was countersigned by a second local police officer) was to take his firearms away and never licence him for them ever again. That recommendation was overruled by the Scottish police.
If you're going to look at these things, look at them, not the tabloid reports of them.

Sparks · 17-11-2014 11:15am

From Broadsheet.ie:
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/11/17/leave-our-guns-alone/

Further to planned new restrictions on gun ownership in Ireland.

An honest attempt to reduce the number of firearms?

Or a deliberate attempt to demonise licensed firearm owners - farmers, hunters, paintballers, vets and sportspeople – all of whom “are personally vetted and signed off by the Gardai themselves?

Marksman Mark Dennehy writes:

Let’s start with the basics: Yes, ordinary people in Ireland own firearms for perfectly good legal reasons...continues

It got hit by the spelling autocorrect monster in one or two places, but mostly it's okay I think. Not a horrid end result for a day's typing. Now on to emailing my local TDs...

bravestar · 17-11-2014 11:18am

ntipptop wrote: »

has anyone actually got proper stats on stolen firearms, apart from the ags OWN stats ????
I think we need these to be forwarded to the tds. aswell
what I see in the report is that its suggesting that all firearms used in crime, including murders, come from law abiding citizens
could anyone get stats from customs on how many firearms that they have seized ????
Might show what is actually happening in crime land

Ah come on, it says that they don't know the amount of legally held firearms used because the firearm is not always recovered. I'm as against this as the next guy but don't go exaggerating things, it only undermines our side.

Grizzly 45 · 17-11-2014 11:21am

Seem to be the only stats out there and all the other sites like gunpolicy .org ,which are anti gun groups BTW have faithfully copied them.:rolleyes:
Garbage in garbage out.

yubabill1 · 17-11-2014 11:35am

Sparks wrote: »

From Broadsheet.ie:
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/11/17/leave-our-guns-alone/

It got hit by the spelling autocorrect monster in one or two places, but mostly it's okay I think. Not a horrid end result for a day's typing. Now on to emailing my local TDs...

A good, rounded argument, cogently-put and argued with nothing but reason.

(I especially like the bit where you mention efforts to discredit us as a group).

Expect an emotive response.

Well done, Sparks.

Tea drinker · 17-11-2014 11:44am

First email sent today. Let the floodgates open!

There's a meeting in Harbour house tonight?

yubabill1 · 17-11-2014 12:08pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

(I especially like the bit where you mention efforts to discredit us as a group).

Expect an emotive response.

Told you so!

Read Medium Sized C's posts on your article.

Post#1 makes him sound reasonable and looks like he's one of us.

Post#2 conveys his real message.

What's the next action in his SOP guidebook?

ntipptop · 17-11-2014 12:55pm

bravestar wrote: »

Ah come on, it says that they don't know the amount of legally held firearms used because the firearm is not always recovered. I'm as against this as the next guy but don't go exaggerating things, it only undermines our side.

im not exaggerating things, what I was trying to suggest is that we furnish them with some true facts!!!!!
thus further discrediting the powers in charge at the moment, and proving that they do in fact distort the truth!!!!!
I am 200% present behind this
I emailed w o dea td, and he told me he is going to raise the matter on tuesday

knockon · 17-11-2014 1:03pm

ntipptop wrote: »

im not exaggerating things, what I was trying to suggest is that we furnish them with some true facts!!!!!
thus further discrediting the powers in charge at the moment, and proving that they do in fact distort the truth!!!!!
I am 200% present behind this
I emailed w o dea td, and he told me he is going to raise the matter on tuesday

With respect....Willie O Dea's cabinet colleague Dermot Ahern said this 6 years ago....and he did nothing about it then.

"The Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern has said that he will taking action to crack the gun culture in Ireland with new laws banning all handguns".

bravestar · 17-11-2014 1:11pm

ntipptop wrote: »

im not exaggerating things, what I was trying to suggest is that we furnish them with some true facts!!!!!
thus further discrediting the powers in charge at the moment, and proving that they do in fact distort the truth!!!!!
I am 200% present behind this
I emailed w o dea td, and he told me he is going to raise the matter on tuesday

I agree with you regarding facts and good on you for the email.

ntipptop · 17-11-2014 1:12pm

knockon wrote: »

With respect....Willie O Dea's cabinet colleague Dermot Ahern said this 6 years ago....and he did nothing about it then.

"The Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern has said that he will taking action to crack the gun culture in Ireland with new laws banning all handguns".

yes but was he looking for votes then ????
with respect, should everyone stop emailing because of there cabinet colleagues ????
some td with a pair, might actually stand up to this and until then I think every td should be informed of what is going on and see who's in and who's out at the next time they want or votes

knockon · 17-11-2014 1:22pm

ntipptop wrote: »

yes but was he looking for votes then ????
with respect, should everyone stop emailing because of there cabinet colleagues ????
some td with a pair, might actually stand up to this and until then I think every td should be informed of what is going on and see who's in and who's out at the next time they want or votes

You are quite right. Every TD needs to know regardless of what happened. I am venting on the past so I need to move on......

Incidentally after I made contact with the 2 local TD in Limerick I dropped a strongly worded email to finegael@finegael.ie an hour ago. Something for the spindoctors to chew on. Now to arrange a face to face with Kieran O Donnell TD....

clivej · 17-11-2014 2:59pm

Very good read here. Well put together article on the current situation.
http://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.broadsheet.ie%2F2014%2F11%2F17%2Fleave-our-guns-alone%2F&h=tAQEW03d2&s=1

Kryten · 17-11-2014 3:07pm

Yes. It is a good article. Fair play

BattleCorp · 17-11-2014 3:42pm

BoatMad wrote: »

This current problem is about handguns, thats the kernel, they have a single use in this state, thats is target shooting. The numbers involved are small compared to holders of ordinary shotguns and bolt action rifles.

It's not just about handguns. This proposed legislation will affect every single shooter in Ireland. It gives the Gardai the power to refuse a licence (any gun licence, not just pistols) to the most saintly man in Ireland simply because of the area that he lives in or the amount of legally held guns already in the area.

What happens if the Super decides that the safe limit for firearms in his district is 1. That means that if he thinks a number higher than 1 is too many, then he is free to refuse to licence any more, no matter how much of a need you have for the firearm or how good your character is..

I know I'm being a bit ridiculous with that statement but that is what this legislation could lead to.

SO the arguments have to be carefully presented. The farmers can be easily bought off by be told that no provisions affect them etc. Then the TDs just sigh and move on.

But this legislation does impact on farmers, a lot of them have semi auto or pump action shotguns that will become illegal at the stroke of a pen.

The IFA should be contacted and made aware of this but I assume they have been already.

This bullsh1t legislation won't just hit a few pistol shooters, it'll screw everybody.

Tea drinker · 17-11-2014 3:43pm

Don't forget to remind the politicians of the inevitable job losses that will come from the collapse of our sport.
Ranges, suppliers, Dealers are all going to be under severe pressure to stay open.
I feel many/most will be closing as a direct result.

Kramer · 17-11-2014 4:02pm

Anyone from down Limerick/Clare/Kerry way heading to the 7pm HH meeting?
Carpool? PM me..
Thx.

ntipptop · 17-11-2014 4:35pm

Kramer wrote: »

Anyone from down Limerick/Clare/Kerry way heading to the 7pm HH meeting?
Carpool? PM me..
Thx.

some lads meeting in Obama plaza around 5/530

clivej · 17-11-2014 5:48pm

Remember the information meeting at Harbour House shooting club tonight. Looking like a couple/few TD's are going to turn up.

Heckler · 17-11-2014 5:56pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

Don't forget to remind the politicians of the inevitable job losses that will come from the collapse of our sport.
Ranges, suppliers, Dealers are all going to be under severe pressure to stay open.
I feel many/most will be closing as a direct result.

Already looking like my range is thinking of closing its doors. Everyone just sick and tired of all the bull****. If the pistols are taken the membership will half and make the club unviable. Decimating shooting sports for absolutely no good reason. Its maddening.

ipnet · 17-11-2014 7:17pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's not just about handguns. This proposed legislation will affect every single shooter in Ireland. It gives the Gardai the power to refuse a licence (any gun licence, not just pistols) to the most saintly man in Ireland simply because of the area that he lives in or the amount of legally held guns already in the area.

What happens if the Super decides that the safe limit for firearms in his district is 1. That means that if he thinks a number higher than 1 is too many, then he is free to refuse to licence any more, no matter how much of a need you have for the firearm or how good your character is..

I know I'm being a bit ridiculous with that statement but that is what this legislation could lead to.

But this legislation does impact on farmers, a lot of them have semi auto or pump action shotguns that will become illegal at the stroke of a pen.

The IFA should be contacted and made aware of this but I assume they have been already.

This bullsh1t legislation won't just hit a few pistol shooters, it'll screw everybody.

Very true, according to the report "An Garda Síochána also advise that as of the 17th of January 2014 there were 184 licences for semi-automatic centre- fire rifles and 8,763 licences for semi automatic and pump action shotguns, of which 45 semi-automatic shotguns (capable of holding more than 3 rounds) are licensed as restricted firearms." It's likely many of those 8,763 licences will fall foul of the proposed legislation and belong to farmers.

meathstevie · 17-11-2014 11:06pm

If these proposals stop gangsters from committing murders I will grind up my guns, dress in sackcloth and ashes and personally deliver the pieces of scrap metal to the Department of Justice while flogging myself with briars.

This discussion crops up with predictable regularity and it appears like every time a government is in hot water, of their own inept making by the way, we get a kick in the balls for their day or two of easy headlines.

As for the legal advice that was referred to in the document; we may not have an untouchable right to possess firearms but
we do definitely have a right to own and enjoy our property which is protected by national and European law and infringements of that by new legislation are as far as I know contestable through the legal system. The other side of that coin unfortunately is that if one thinks that Dublin is expensive to obtain justice Strasbourg will cost multiples and time frames are like deep space travel.

BattleCorp · 17-11-2014 11:37pm

ipnet wrote: »

Very true, according to the report "An Garda Síochána also advise that as of the 17th of January 2014 there were 184 licences for semi-automatic centre- fire rifles and 8,763 licences for semi automatic and pump action shotguns, of which 45 semi-automatic shotguns (capable of holding more than 3 rounds) are licensed as restricted firearms." It's likely many of those 8,763 licences will fall foul of the proposed legislation and belong to farmers.

Any gun can fall foul of the new regulations, not just pump action or semi auto shotguns.

This proposed legislation gives a Super the opportunity to ban firearms based on his own personal opinion of firearms regardless of the applicants need or character just by stating the words 'public safety concerns'.

Totally discriminatory.

If a Super decides that they don't want any more legally held guns in their district, they just have to cite 'public safety concerns' and you don't get your olympic style pistol, your single shot benchrest bolt action rifle, anything really.

ipnet · 18-11-2014 12:11am

BattleCorp wrote: »

Any gun can fall foul of the new regulations, not just pump action or semi auto shotguns.

This proposed legislation gives a Super the opportunity to ban firearms based on his own personal opinion of firearms regardless of the applicants need or character just by stating the words 'public safety concerns'.

Totally discriminatory.

If a Super decides that they don't want any more legally held guns in their district, they just have to cite 'public safety concerns' and you don't get your olympic style pistol, your single shot benchrest bolt action rifle, anything really.

I think that point needs to brought home to people that hold shotguns or rifles for hunting/vermin control purposes. That's a lot of people, probably in excess of 100,000. Any media campaign or press coverage needs to focus on this. The message should be simple: if this legislation is brought in, there's a good chance your shotgun or rifle firearms certificate might not be renewed, you will have to forfeit your firearm and receive nothing in compensation. That might at least take away some of the proposed absolute power from the Super and give some recourse to the courts.

yubabill1 · 18-11-2014 9:55am

Was at the meeting in HH last night.
3 local TDs and one councillor attended and listened carefully;
Sean O Fearghail, TD FF
Martin Heydon TD FG
Sean Fleming TD FF
Cllr. Martin Miley FF.

Well over 100 maybe approaching 200 people there. Met a couple of old friends I hadn't seen in years (over 25 years in one case).

Dr Lydia Foy, transgender campaigner who won the right to have her birth cert amended gave some helpful advice.

Had to leave early, because Des Crofton was welded to the microphone and it was basically a lecture. Can see how shooting groups remain divided.

Will be emailing today.

Grizzly 45 · 18-11-2014 12:48pm

Total head count 350 and great to put a few faces to names from boards there!
Pity you left early,The TDs did come up with some valueable contributions.

1] We need to get about a100k worth of signitures in a petition stating that this law is flawed wrong and just plain immoral.This was one one of them who have been involved in the anti pylon charges and they forced a review and change with 45K worth of signitures.WE CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT hopefully!

2] Demand to meet the minister herself to put our case across.Would the IFA or GAA just be fobbed off with "written submissions"if somthing was affecting them?? Push your legislators to to set up a meeting with the shooting repersentatives on a local club level and for the shooting organisations to meet her[Que Sparks ...FCP:D:D]

3] KEEP IT CIVIL.A point made by Des.There have been already a few narky mails and letters sent to the DOJ/ministers office and FG TDs,and it does us no favours.
Especially now with the water charges demos getting bolshie,and talk of tooling up the Gardai on ministerial protection duty.The LAST thing we need is coming across like a bunch of "Angry Irish gun nuts threatning minister".[Daily scum headline on day]

4] Disscet the report and publish our own,as stated it is a masterfully crafted document to scare the bejausus out of anyone NOT fammilar with the gun laws here.With all sorts of stories of mas shootings and Gardai not being able to trace removed serial numbers...On aside,that doesn't say much for the Garda ballistics section then,as there are some exellent methods in forensic science to do bring up removed numbers,and if they couldnt do it, a call to the BKA,Scotland Yard or the BATFE/FBI labs might have been in order...But I guess the head of the dept was more busy in our DC s around the land wittering on about "combat pistols":rolleyes: Your tax euros at work!

5] Get off your Butts and get out letter writing,emailing,into your TDs clinics and FOLLOW it up. Call them back at least once a week to keep them under pressure ..The more times they see and hear of this the better for us. You have no excuses.Email ,Facebook,Twitter ,whatever.Get signitures on petitions [However,no messing like putting your dead grandparents or kids names on it...Leave those tactics to the antis no wonder hey arent taken seriously]

We CAN turn this,but we need everyone to do their bit.

What did YOU do in the gun grab of 2014 to stop it??
Grizzly45

Zxthinger · 18-11-2014 12:54pm

This proposal also sets out to control aspects of reloading and storage if powder etc etc!
It's a document that cherry picks stats and prohibitive secondary legislation from several other countries!
It pays no attention to how reloading is controlled in other countries
Afaik it seems that the doc also admits that a storage of explosives was always allowed under the 1875act!
Has anyone else looked into this section! Please advise! The doc is poorly written.

It's sets out controls which go above and beyond those of our neighbours and it specifically states that reloading will be allowed only under certain circumstances.
It seems that this bit if legislation will nit be tackled for the foreseeable future! Seems like a bone was thrown to the wolves to calm them down!!
Opinions please on reloading in the doc

Witcher · 18-11-2014 1:08pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

3] KEEP IT CIVIL. A point made by Des.

:pac:

Oh Crofton you joker. If only he could take his own advice.

ntipptop · 18-11-2014 1:13pm

if the lads on here put as much energy into trying save the sport than throwing remarks about crofton and whatever group you might have some chance saving it
and by the way im not for or against des crofton or nargc
all im saying is keep yer comments to yerselfs for now
until this is sorted

pilatus · 18-11-2014 1:19pm

*****, a chara,

Thank you for your email and raising this issue with me.

I had been in touch previously with the Minister for Justice, Frances Fitzgerald TD, in relation to the matter of firearms licensing and I have met with Des Crofton, the National Director of the NARGC to hear the Council’s position.

I intend on bringing your concerns to the Minister’s attention and will be in touch with any feedback I receive.

Le gach dea-ghuí,

____________
Joe McHugh
Fine Gael TD for Donegal

Aire Stáit do Ghnóthaí Gaeltachta agus Acmhainní Nádúrtha

Minister of State with Special Responsibility for Gaeltacht Affairs

pilatus · 18-11-2014 1:20pm

*****, a chara,

Thank you for contacting Sinn Féin on this issue.

We have asked the Minister to outline his plans to us regarding the Firearms Licensing System and also if he would facilitate engagement with stakeholders prior to completing this initial review. I have attached the response below.

A Sinn Féin delegation met with Mr Des Crofton of the National Association of Regional Game Councils and Mr Michael Tope of the National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol Clubs to listen to their concerns.

Both men drew our attention to the fact that in their opinion there is serious maladministration of the Firearms Licensing System with 93% of refusal cases ending up being overturned in court. We understand too that there are many issues relating to the restricted and non restricted lists of firearms as well as various issues around legal fees.

We have agreed to work with both organisations by submitting further questions to the Minister for Justice on the issues and we are also seeking to have the organisation brought in to present to the Justice Committee where they can outline their issues to all members,

Is mise,
Declan (on behalf of Pearse)

Response to question [18978/14] by Alan Shatter TD - In light of public safety concerns highlighted by An Garda Síochána and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the judiciary, my Department is currently examining key policy, legislative, administrative and other issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive and consider a report in relation to these matters within 2 months. When I have considered that report I will consider what further action is necessary in relation to the firearms licensing system, including the proposal from interest groups for an examination of relevant administrative issues by the Garda Inspectorate.
Officials of my Department met key interest groups in late 2013 and early 2014 who set out their concerns in relation to a range of issues regarding firearms licensing at that time. These interest groups have also communicated their views directly to me, as well as to all Oireachtas members.
Further consultation with relevant stakeholders will take place when I have considered the report and before any decisions are finalised in relation to proposals for change to the firearms licensing system.

pilatus · 18-11-2014 1:24pm

Replies from Joe McHugh FG and Pearse Doherty SF Donegal . Think Sinn Fein could stand to gain alot from supporting us on this issue .

Sparks · 18-11-2014 1:24pm

A petition stating a law is immoral...
I...
Seriously, my taxes are paying the salary of someone who comes up with that joke as a serious suggestion?
/weeps

You go round with a petition, people sign it, people then think "well, I've done my bit, I don't need to take an hour out on Saturday to go visit my local TD's clinic". You won't, but you're not exactly the statistical norm there Grizz. That's the problem there. Then, even if you get 100k signatures, the Minister says "thank you, I'll be sure to take it under advisement", and she counts up 100,000 votes on one side and 2.9 million on the other side.

[Que Sparks ...FCP:D:D]

Gosh, Grizz, a body where you're officially at the table with the Minister already might be handy about now, wouldn't you say?

KEEP IT CIVIL.A point made by Des.

Can someone call me a doctor please, I think my brain is broken.

There have been already a few narky mails and letters sent to the DOJ/ministers office and FG TDs,and it does us no favours.

Yup, definitely broken. The irony meter exploded and there's shrapnel everywhere.

4] Disscet the report and publish our own,as stated it is a masterfully crafted document to scare the bejausus out of anyone NOT fammilar with the gun laws here.With all sorts of stories of mas shootings and Gardai not being able to trace removed serial numbers...

Oh yes, lets just play the game they ask us to play, with the rules they write and on their turf.

Seriously Grizz, they want us to discuss mass shootings in public. They want us to try to defend our sport from that nightmare, because then all the dialog is about mass shootings, not sport. And it doesn't matter that we can make the argument - Joe Public won't give a crap. He's going to hear the AGS say these can happen and us say they can't and he's going to decide that this is the real question involved, and he doesn't care about our sport and he's risk-averse so he'll side with the AGS.

Seriously. This is not rocket science, this is Lyndon B Johnson territory for feck's sakes. It's one of the oldest tricks on the books.

Get off your Butts and get out letter writing,emailing,into your TDs clinics and FOLLOW it up.

Well, yeah. But I would say that, wouldn't I?

Sparks · 18-11-2014 1:26pm

pilatus wrote: »

Think Sinn Fein could stand to gain alot from supporting us on this issue .

I guess 30 years of that joke about the Irish Olympic team winning the medal but having to give it back 'cos they wouldn't take off the balaclava isn't enough...

Sparks · 18-11-2014 1:27pm

pilatus wrote: »

A Sinn Féin delegation met with Mr Des Crofton of the National Association of Regional Game Councils and Mr Michael Tope of the National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol Clubs to listen to their concerns.

Just... wow. I guess our side aren't even up to playing checkers.

Wadi14 · 18-11-2014 1:33pm

pilatus wrote: »

*****, a chara,

Thank you for your email and raising this issue with me.

I had been in touch previously with the Minister for Justice, Frances Fitzgerald TD, in relation to the matter of firearms licensing and I have met with Des Crofton, the National Director of the NARGC to hear the Council’s position.

I intend on bringing your concerns to the Minister’s attention and will be in touch with any feedback I receive.

Le gach dea-ghuí,

____________
Joe McHugh
Fine Gael TD for Donegal

Aire Stáit do Ghnóthaí Gaeltachta agus Acmhainní Nádúrtha

Minister of State with Special Responsibility for Gaeltacht Affairs

I think we are all getting that reply at least he has gone to the bother of checking it out

Tea drinker · 18-11-2014 2:48pm

Sparks wrote: »

Just... wow. I guess our side aren't even up to playing checkers.

I was thinking about this the other day, yeah I don't think having SF as our poster boy will win us the traction and leverage we need. SF are doing very well and who knows what could happen in the next election - but we aren't there yet.

OTOH ANY and all help is not only welcome but needed.

From the meeting I see 3 things that need to happen

1. Motivate every club, and evry member motivates their friends and any shooter and farmer they know.
2. Emails, petitions etc are good, but we need to doorstep the constituency offices to get really noticed.
3. The report needs to be completely discredited. Accurately. And soon.
This is the stick we are going to use against the system

mrbrianj · 18-11-2014 3:05pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

This proposal also sets out to control aspects of reloading and storage if powder etc etc!
It's a document that cherry picks stats and prohibitive secondary legislation from several other countries!
It pays no attention to how reloading is controlled in other countries
Afaik it seems that the doc also admits that a storage of explosives was always allowed under the 1875act!
Has anyone else looked into this section! Please advise! The doc is poorly written.

It's sets out controls which go above and beyond those of our neighbours and it specifically states that reloading will be allowed only under certain circumstances.
It seems that this bit if legislation will nit be tackled for the foreseeable future! Seems like a bone was thrown to the wolves to calm them down!!
Opinions please on reloading in the doc

No I reckon it reads like they are going to tighten up current controls, so people will never be able to reload. Concrete bunkers, inspections and big fees for licences to reload.

Some businesses need the licence to keep explosives (ships chandlers trading in flares etc) therefore they cant make that illegal - but they could redtape the hope for reloading away for good. Anyway, after the pistols and semi auto shootguns are gone - they will come back for the full bore rifles:mad:

Sparks · 18-11-2014 3:06pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

we need to doorstep the constituency offices to get really noticed.

This.
The other stuff, petitions and so on - well, do any of use really need to be told how easy it is to "lose" paperwork?

3. The report needs to be completely discredited. Accurately. And soon.
This is the stick we are going to use against the system

I'm not kidding, if you get into a public debate and let the Gardai set the topic, the terms and drive the question, you might as well just stay home. The AGS would love for this to degrade into a media debate about mass shootings with them saying they have to be risk averse and protecting society is their job -- because that would mean we are on the other side of that argument.

Doesn't matter that the report is ridiculous nonsense because we'll be in the press denying that we're pig****ers.

That'd be about the best gift you could ever give anyone that doesn't like us and wants us gone.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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