The Hazards of Belief

recedite · 22-07-2015 11:24pm

Didn't Pope Frank deliver a lecture recently which admonished everybody else for their irresponsible and wicked consumption, thereby causing global warming.
I wonder how having heated outdoor paths on church property fits in with this??

Peregrinus · 23-07-2015 1:30am

recedite wrote: »

Didn't Pope Frank deliver a lecture recently which admonished everybody else for their irresponsible and wicked consumption, thereby causing global warming.
I wonder how having heated outdoor paths on church property fits in with this??

Apprently not well, when we consider what befell the bishop responsible.

obplayer · 23-07-2015 2:01am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Apprently not well, when we consider what befell the bishop responsible.

He had his feet frozen?

Peregrinus · 23-07-2015 2:31am

obplayer wrote: »

He had his feet frozen?

He was summoned to Rome (he flew Ryanair, contrary to his usual practice!) and on arrival was suspended while an investigation into the affair was mounted. While suspended he was required to live outside his diocese, in a monastery. The report of the investigation was - ahem - not favourable to him, and he resigned as a bishop and left the monastery, reportedly to live in with his brother and sister in an apartment in Munich (also outside his former diocese). In February of this year he was assigned to a low-level post in a Vatican office charged with preparing catechism and religious instruction materials (which was his area of expertise before his bishopping days). According to this report, it's a "make-work" job intended to keep him where they can keep an eye on him. Presumably he doesn't have any budgetary or spending authority in his new position.

The whole business was also investigated by the civil prosecutor in Limburg, but she decided last year to take no further action.

Peregrinus · 23-07-2015 2:34am

robindch wrote: »

Thargor's original claim was that the money was extracted "from Germany" "by the Vatican". Both claims are true and neither claim suggested that all the money was siphoned off to Rome by Pope Frank and his white cat. It's clear that most of the cash remains in Germany, though significant amounts are provided to the Vatican as well.

Thargor's claim was this:

Thargor wrote: »

5.6 Billion extracted from Germany alone every year just by the Vatican! that is seriously parasitic behaviour.

5.6 billion is the whole of the Catholic church's share of the German church tax, and he said it was extracted from Germany by the Vatican. That looks pretty unambiguous to me.

recedite · 23-07-2015 9:56am

Peregrinus wrote: »

In February of this year he was assigned to a low-level post in a Vatican office charged with preparing catechism and religious instruction materials ....
The whole business was also investigated by the civil prosecutor in Limburg, but she decided last year to take no further action.

As a Vatican resident with an official job, he is now automatically a Vatican citizen, which makes it impossible for the German civil prosecutor to get hold of him anyway, should they decide to pursue the case.
The main priority for the Vatican is, as always, to minimise any bad publicity by moving the offender and hiding him.

Thargor · 23-07-2015 10:11am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Thargor's claim was this:

5.6 billion is the whole of the Catholic church's share of the German church tax, and he said it was extracted from Germany by the Vatican. That looks pretty unambiguous to me.

So you're okay with the billions and billions that have been funneled to the Vatican from German taxpayers pockets with zero oversight since this law came into effect as long as you can argue semantics about my BB post, gotcha.

Peregrinus · 23-07-2015 10:17am

recedite wrote: »

As a Vatican resident with an official job, he is now automatically a Vatican citizen, which makes it impossible for the German civil prosecutor to get hold of him anyway, should they decide to pursue the case.

Well, not to pick nits or anything, but the German prosecutor had already decided not to bring charges before he was given the Vatican post.

Plus, not all Vatican posts carry Vatican citizenship; only about the most senior 10% do. I don't know whether this one in particular does, but I rather doubt it.

Plus, being a Vatican citizen doesn't buy you immunity from prosecution in German law. It might, or might not, make it difficult for Germany, if they wanted to, to extradite him from the Vatican, but since they don't want to extradite him and, SFAIK, he doesn't have a Vatican residence, that seems a moot point. He remained in Germany the whole time the prosecutor was investigating the case, so it doesn't look like he is at all concerned with avoiding arrest.

recedite wrote: »

The main priority for the Vatican is, as always, to minimise any bad publicity by moving the offender and hiding him.

No offence, but that's an extraordinarily perverse reading of how the Vatican handled this case. They have been uncharacteristically public about it from the get-go.

robindch · 23-07-2015 11:29am

obplayer wrote: »

Peregrinus wrote: »

Apprently not well, when we consider what befell the bishop responsible.

He had his feet frozen?

While the church itself over the last fifty years has suffered repeatedly from institutionally cold feet with respect to certain issues, in former times, the church certainly did know how to deal with them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_roasting

Peregrinus · 23-07-2015 12:00pm

robindch wrote: »

While the church itself over the last fifty years has suffered repeatedly from institutionally cold feet with respect to certain issues, in former times, the church certainly did know how to deal with them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_roasting

Again with the nitpicking, I'm afraid, but your link records churchmen - specifically, the Templars - as being the victims of this quaint custom, not the perpetrators of it. In that particular instace the custom was practiced by the King of France.

(Closer to home, I seem to remember that one of the medieval Bishops of Cork died under this same torture, but I do not recall who the perpetrator was. Anyone?)

MrPudding · 23-07-2015 12:37pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Presumably he doesn't have any budgetary or spending authority in his new position.

I would still keep an eye on his spending, just in case. He could still do some damage ordering gold plated staplers and the like...

In other news, a small victory for rationality, common sense and evidence based medicine.

MrP

robindch · 23-07-2015 1:03pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Again with the nitpicking, I'm afraid, but your link records churchmen - specifically, the Templars - as being the victims of this quaint custom, not the perpetrators of it.

The fortunes of the Templars was tied to the crusades - they were in the ascendant while the crusades were doing well, but ran into all kinds of savage trouble when Jerusalem was captured by the infidel.

I haven't checked, but it seems fair to assume that the records of foot-roasted Templars probably come from after the fall of Jerusalem.

Foot-roasting was apparently one of the Spanish Inquisition's more popular means of establishing truth - the image below appears on quite a few pages discussing the torture and the cowled figures do look a little religious to me.

robindch · 23-07-2015 3:18pm

God causes Pope Frank to become less popular in the US than last year, apparently because of his embrace of left-wing notions like the equality of income distribution and protection of the Earth's fragile environment:

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/07/22/pope-francis-approval-ratings-slump-sharply/

recedite · 23-07-2015 3:44pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

(Closer to home, I seem to remember that one of the medieval Bishops of Cork died under this same torture, but I do not recall who the perpetrator was. Anyone?)

Might have been Cashel, not Cork?
Dermot O Hurley who refused to play soccer instead of GAA. Or something.

Peregrinus · 24-07-2015 2:22am

recedite wrote: »

Might have been Cashel, not Cork?
Dermot O Hurley who refused to play soccer instead of GAA. Or something.

That's the lad. As I recall, they fashioned two little bootees out of metal, filled them with butter, heated them until the butter was boiling and then popped his feet into them. Remarkably inventive, I thought.

Peregrinus · 24-07-2015 2:24am

robindch wrote: »

The fortunes of the Templars was tied to the crusades - they were in the ascendant while the crusades were doing well, but ran into all kinds of savage trouble when Jerusalem was captured by the infidel.

I haven't checked, but it seems fair to assume that the records of foot-roasted Templars probably come from after the fall of Jerusalem.

Foot-roasting was apparently one of the Spanish Inquisition's more popular means of establishing truth - the image below appears on quite a few pages discussing the torture and the cowled figures do look a little religious to me.

Seriously? A picture that somebody has drawn, in a style suggesting that they did this a couple of centuries after the supposed event? In connection with the Spanish Inquisition, which is notoriously the subject of a Black Legend? That's your best cite?

recedite · 24-07-2015 10:11am

Inquisition denier?
Now there's a new thing.

Peregrinus · 24-07-2015 10:15am

I'm not denying the Spanish Inquisition. (Cue cries of "Nobody denies the Spanish Inquisition!") I'm saying that, given the amount of guff that has been written about the Spanish Inquisition over the centuries, the charming modern woodcut located by robindch doesn't cut the mustard as credible evidence that that their three principal weapons were fear, surprise, a fanatical dedication to the pope and a machine for roasting the soles of peoples' feet. Four! Four principal weapons.

FWIW, the Wikipedia article discussing the Inquisition goes into a bit of detail on the enhanced interrogation techniques employed, but doesn't suggest anything like foot-roasting, and says that the Inquisition had riding instructions (nothing which does permanent harm or draws blood) which would seem to preclude it.

Robin's belief, expressed in post #6340, that church authorities practised foot-roasting appears so far not to be an evidence-based belief. It's a matter of faith, you see.

BlaasForRafa · 24-07-2015 4:05pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Seriously? A picture that somebody has drawn, in a style suggesting that they did this a couple of centuries after the supposed event? In connection with the Spanish Inquisition, which is notoriously the subject of a Black Legend? That's your best cite?

Made up stuff written(drawn) long after the event....you mean like the gospels? :pac:

robindch · 24-07-2015 4:17pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

[...] the charming modern woodcut located by robindch doesn't cut the mustard as credible evidence that that their three principal weapons were fear, surprise, a fanatical dedication to the pope and a machine for roasting the soles of peoples' feet. Four! Four principal weapons.

That engraving wasn't evidence - it's an illustration

Here's a picture of what I believe is set of real foot-roasting stocks from here:

robindch · 25-07-2015 3:00pm

A religious preacher learns the hard way that sometimes, burying is forever:

http://odili.net/news/source/2015/jul/22/8.html

Odlil.net wrote:

Five members of the same family were charged with the murder of a prophet who had been called to their their home in the village of Mazonde, Zimbabwe to help them cleanse their house of evil spirits. According to local newspaper, Zed 24 News, the accused family identified as Leanmore Mutero, Tonderai Muswere, Michael Muchengeti, Manasa Mutero and Nicholas Mutero, appeared at the High Court in Harare facing a murder charge for participating in the death of self-professed Prophet Shamiso Kanyama, who accidentally died during a healing ceremony.

Pastor Kanyama had reportedly asked his followers to bury him alive so that he could summon more cleansing powers to heal the family that had been plagued by mysterious deaths. Zed 24 News reports that High Court Justice Owen Tagu heard how on that day, the late pastor had been invited to attend the home in the Muzarabani district, which is situated along the Mozambique-Zimbabwe border, by their priest, Zvidzai Muchengeti. The five men had requested the priest to help them clean their home of evil spirits, because it was causing mysterious deaths in their family.

Responding to their request to perform a healing ceremony, Kanyama had ordered his followers to dig a grave and bury him alive because that was the way he summoned more healing powers to ward off evil spirits. However, the plan backfired on the prophet when instead of being resurrected as he supposed, the men dug up the grave again to find him dead. Kanyama helped to dig his own grave before praying and jumping inside, Father Zvidzai, who has turned State witness, told the High Court. He continued that after laying face down in the grave, he ordered his followers to start covering him with soil.

"He pegged a grave-shaped pit in front of my hut and asked for help to dig the pit," Zvidzai continued. "Deceased requested to be buried alive so that he would gain power to drive away the evil forces." Fearing for the life of the prophet as the men were in the process of filling the grave, he requested the men to stop what they were doing, Joseph Taderera told Justice Tagu. However, they ignored his pleas when Kanyama urged them to continue the process of burying him alive, stating that he would rise from the grave unharmed.

"I warned the men about the danger of their actions, but my advice fell on deaf ears because Kanyama shouted, telling me that I am disturbing his angels, and urged them to continue filling the grave, saying that he would later come out alive," Taderera said.

Brian Shanahan · 25-07-2015 9:29pm

robindch wrote: »

by Pope Frank and his white cat.

Now you've got me singing the Postman Pat theme with 'Popey Frank' substituted for the titular character:

Popey Frank

Popey Frank

Popey Frank and his black and white cat
Early in the morning
Just as day is dawning
He picks up all the postbags in his van

Popey Frank
Popey Frank
Popey Frank and his black and white cat
All the birds are singing
And the day is just beginning
Frank feels he's a really happy man

Everybody knows His bright red van
All his friends will smile as he waves to greet them
Maybe you can never be sure there'll be knock
Ring
Letters through your door

Popey Frank
Popey Frank
Popey Frank and his Black and White Cat
All the birds are singing
And the day is just beginning
Frank feels he's a really happy man
Frank feels he's a really happy man
Frank feels he's a really happy man

You utter dastard, you!

Edit: And that Zimbabwean "prophet". Shouldn't that really just be chalked down to a case of suicide, in all honesty?

obplayer · 30-07-2015 8:46pm

Six people stabbed at Jerusalem gay pride march 'by ultra-Orthodox Jew released from jail three weeks ago for identical attack in 2005'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3180270/Ultra-Orthodox-Jew-stabs-six-people-Jerusalem-Gay-Pride-march.html

An Orthodox Jewish assailant stabbed and wounded six participants in the annual Gay Pride march in Jerusalem on Thursday, police said.
Yishai Shlissel spent 10 years in jail for his attack a decade ago when three marchers were wounded.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu condemned 'as a most serious incident' what was the worst attack in years on the event in Jerusalem, a city where the religious population is more prominent than in other parts of Israel.

Brian Shanahan · 30-07-2015 10:27pm

obplayer wrote: »

Six people stabbed at Jerusalem gay pride march 'by ultra-Orthodox Jew released from jail three weeks ago for identical attack in 2005'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3180270/Ultra-Orthodox-Jew-stabs-six-people-Jerusalem-Gay-Pride-march.html

It's a logical consequence of creating a racist, xenophobic, religiously fundamentalist and terrorist state, Benyamin.

robindch · 31-07-2015 9:33am

For the second time in a year, the Kenyan RCC tells Africans not to vaccinate their kids - this time to avoid the polio vaccine.

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/07/28/kenya-catholic-bishops-call-polio-vaccine-boycott/

Religion News wrote:

NAIROBI, Kenya (RNS) Roman Catholic bishops in Kenya have urged citizens to boycott a mass polio vaccination campaign, unless the safety of the vaccine has been confirmed through scientific tests. The oral vaccination campaign, by the World Health Organization and UNICEF, is scheduled to begin in Kenya on Aug. 1. Ahead of the campaign’s launch, the bishops questioned the safety of the vaccines, saying the manufacturer failed to provide requested information and the government disregarded the bishops’ request for tests.

Their concerns heightened after a recent unrelated incident in which about 30 children who received an injection of an anti-malarial drug in a dispensary in western Kenya appeared to be paralyzed. The drug, believed to be quinine for advanced cases, was found to contain the pain drug paracetamol, according to the bishops. Paracetamol is also known as acetaminophen.

The government Ministry of Health defended the vaccine in a statement issued Tuesday (July 28.) “Any attempts aimed at mobilizing the public against taking their children for vaccination is a serious violation of the right of children to health and survival,” said Dr. Nicholas Muraguri, director of Kenya’s Medical Services, in the statement. “The ministry of health once again reassures the public of the safety of all vaccines used in Kenya,” he said. “I therefore appeal to all stakeholders, especially the leadership of the Catholic Church, to continue supporting” the immunization campaign in Kenya.

Polio is a highly infectious disease caused by a virus. It invades the nervous system and can cause irreversible paralysis in hours. It can strike at any age but mainly affects children under age 5, according to the Global Polio Eradication Initiative. There is no cure; the strategy to eradicate polio is based on preventing infection by immunizing every child until transmission stops spreading.

“We are not in conflict with the Ministry of Health, but we have an apostolic and moral duty to ensure Kenyans are getting safe vaccines,” Bishop Philip Anyolo, the Kenya Conference of Catholic Bishops chair, told journalists at a news conference in Nairobi. Early this year, the bishops had tangled with government after the clerics claimed a mass neonatal tetanus vaccination campaign was a disguised form of population control. The government and the bishops later agreed to test all vaccines before, during and after the campaign, according to the bishops.

“We are not fighting anybody, but we are saying let us determine our destiny. The moment things (vaccines) are formulated from outside and there are problems, it is our people who suffer. That’s why we are voicing this issue,” said Cardinal John Njue, the bishop of Nairobi.

Peregrinus · 31-07-2015 9:40am

I'm a big fan of vaccination, and have no time for anti-vaxxers, but does the report not suggest that the bishops may have a point? There is, at least allegedly, some indication that Kenyans are being subjected to dud or corrupted drugs, and there is a bit of a history of African communities being used as a dumping ground for otherwise-unmarketable drugs, or even as involuntary subjects for clinical testing.

The bishops aren't saying that people shouldn't be vaccinated. They're saying that they should be able to trust the vaccines that they are being given.

kylith · 31-07-2015 11:13am

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm a big fan of vaccination, and have no time for anti-vaxxers, but does the report not suggest that the bishops may have a point? There is, at least allegedly, some indication that Kenyans are being subjected to dud or corrupted drugs, and there is a bit of a history of African communities being used as a dumping ground for otherwise-unmarketable drugs, or even as involuntary subjects for clinical testing.

The bishops aren't saying that people shouldn't be vaccinated. They're saying that they should be able to trust the vaccines that they are being given.

Are priests the ones to demand the documentation though? Of course people should be able to trust the vaccines but surely that's a matter for the Ministry of Health, not the RCC; unless seminaries offer courses in pharmacology.

Brian Shanahan · 31-07-2015 10:29pm

kylith wrote: »

Are priests the ones to demand the documentation though? Of course people should be able to trust the vaccines but surely that's a matter for the Ministry of Health, not the RCC; unless seminaries offer courses in pharmacology.

Of course if they applied the same standards to their own religion, the churches would have been closed a long time ago for the myriad blatant falsehoods and frauds being peddled.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-07-2015 10:51pm

You have to laugh really.

'Don't trust what they tell you about that vaccine - have their claims been tested??'

'god/bible/jesus/heaven/etc - don't think just trust us!'

BlaasForRafa · 01-08-2015 2:00am

Oh come on, sure didn't the catholic churches advice cure the aids epidemic in africa and save millions of lives?

The Hazards of Belief

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