Branded Vs. Generic tyres?

BostonB · 10-02-2011 4:37pm

Richard571 wrote: »

... is there much difference between 'branded' tyres like Pirelli, Continental etc and non-branded (or 'economy'tyes)...

Last time I need tyres for our 2nd car, I could only find cheap unknown tyres in stock, Roadstar (I think). I didn't think they would be that bad, but they were. They were like driving on ice. Changed them to Khumo and its like a different car. The difference was massive.

Curiously enough a few people have borrowed that car and none of them noticed how poor the grip was on the old tires. Or the difference in the new ones. Its night and day to me.

Fey! · 10-02-2011 4:54pm

BostonB wrote: »

Last time I need tyres for our 2nd car, I could only find cheap unknown tyres in stock, Roadstar (I think). I didn't think.....

Any chance that they were Roadstones? I've had them, and they were pure muck, with damn all grip (they were on my first Surf when I bought it, and were fairly new).

My tyre guy had them recently. When I asked them about them, he said he got them in for someone who wanted them, but wouldn't stock them. He told the customer this, but the customer was insistent.

BostonB · 10-02-2011 4:57pm

You're right. Roadstone Classe. Like socks on lino.

Kersh · 10-02-2011 5:21pm

Back in Novemeber I ran a test day with Toyota and Goodyear/Dunlop at work. We had 2 Avensis, one with the newest Goodyear Efficientgrip tyres, and the other had Savas or something similar (cant remember now), and the difference was astonishing. The good tyres always gave some grip, and I mean always , during high speed cornering, and the cheap brand just understeered. This was through high speed and slow speed corners, but pushing the car on if you know what I mean.

And I would have been always one to lean to cheaper tyres on my past purchases, my thinking always has been that I race cars, so I dont bother driving like a loon on the road to even approach a tyres maximum griplevel no matter what the brand. But in an emergency its all ya got!

But that test was a real eye opener. Other lads working that day did skid stop tests and wet skid pan work, and we were all really surprised at the difference in grip levels.

Tea 1000 · 10-02-2011 5:41pm

BostonB wrote: »

Curiously enough a few people have borrowed that car and none of them noticed how poor the grip was on the old tires. Or the difference in the new ones. Its night and day to me.

Most people really don't have a clue. Not a notion. These would be the same people who claim "sure there's no difference!"

-Corkie- · 10-02-2011 5:44pm

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Most people really don't have a clue. Not a notion. These would be the same people who claim "sure there's no difference!"

OH...:o:o

Tea 1000 · 10-02-2011 5:53pm

-Corkie- wrote: »

OH...:o:o

Wasn't aimed at you at all...

GTE · 10-02-2011 6:02pm

-Corkie- wrote: »

I know I will get blasted for this but we have 2 passats. I put Vredstrein sessnatas on my wifes one as the tyres that came with it were sunnys and triangle.

The Vredstreins were 130 a pop while the sunnys were 65 euro each. Here is the part I cannot figure out. Both brands have done the same mileage and I have more rubber left on my cheap tyres.

I know people here say they are useless at handling and all that but I found no difference only double the price..

To me that says the Sunny Delights (:p) are a harder rubber to give longer life but sacrificing grip. The Vreds are probably the grippier tyre between the two.

EDIT:

A family members car had Dunlop something or others on her car. Against my advice two cheapo Event tyres were put on to replace two of the Dunlops. The Events got moved to the front to make way for new Hankooks on the rear. The front of the car will spin up in the damp like no other. I was amazed at the difference between the old Dunlops and the newish Events.

T-Maxx · 10-02-2011 6:27pm

You would really need to be a professional racing driver to notice the difference between tire brands - the bulk of motorists will never notice any difference. To buy top quality high performance branded rubber (for when a child just might run out in front of you:rolleyes:) is false security and extreme insurance.

Tea 1000 · 10-02-2011 6:46pm

T-Maxx wrote: »

You would really need to be a professional racing driver to notice the difference between tire brands - the bulk of motorists will never notice any difference. To buy top quality high performance branded rubber (for when a child just might run out in front of you:rolleyes:) is false security and extreme insurance.

Absolute rubbish.
You either have grip, or you don't. What kind of tyres do you have and what kind of car?

BostonB · 10-02-2011 6:46pm

T-Maxx wrote: »

You would really need to be a professional racing driver to notice the difference between tire brands...

Can't say I agree. I noticed at very low speeds, specially at runabouts and similar.

Many people don't even notice they have a puncture for example. Its not unusual to get into someone else's car, like a partners, or a someone in the family and notice a problem, that they've never noticed at all.

Technoprisoner · 10-02-2011 8:02pm

T-Maxx wrote: »

You would really need to be a professional racing driver to notice the difference between tire brands - the bulk of motorists will never notice any difference. To buy top quality high performance branded rubber (for when a child just might run out in front of you:rolleyes:) is false security and extreme insurance.

that is the sillyest thing ive ever heard in my life....how would you feel if your child ran out on front of my car and i was not able to avoid him/her because the tyres on my car where cheap and provided poor grip?

Eoin · 10-02-2011 10:37pm

T-Maxx wrote: »

You would really need to be a professional racing driver to notice the difference between tire brands - the bulk of motorists will never notice any difference. To buy top quality high performance branded rubber (for when a child just might run out in front of you) is false security and extreme insurance.

Again, there's a middle ground. I don't think you need to pay top dollar as there are a good few brands in the middle of the market that are pretty good.

However, some of the cheap brands really are awful, and it would only take a slightly damp day for the lack of quality to be pretty noticeable in normal driving conditions. Triangles are a good example (well, a bad example).

slimjimmc · 11-02-2011 12:18am

Nissan doctor wrote: »

It is according to European law. Like I said its not enforced here, by the garda or the NCTS or any government body.

It doesn't matter if both tyres are, for example, 205/55/16 V rated. If they are from different brands, they will have different thread compounds, different wear rating and different thread pattern amongst other differences and so will have different grip and road holding characteristics, leading to reduced handling and braking stability. This is even true of different tyre models from the same company.

Interesting, you have a link to this EU law?

As far as I understood it, European law only required that tyres be of the same 'type' on the same axle but some jurisdictions chose to interpret this to mean same brand on all wheels.

BTW, cheapo tyres aren't known as 'ditch finders' for nothing.

Nissan doctor · 11-02-2011 12:45am

slimjimmc wrote: »

Interesting, you have a link to this EU law?

As far as I understood it, European law only required that tyres be of the same 'type' on the same axle but some jurisdictions chose to interpret this to mean same brand on all wheels.

BTW, cheapo tyres aren't known as 'ditch finders' for nothing.

I don't have a link to the laws, I didn't get them online, I have literature somewhere from training I was doing with Bridgestone.

I would only take tyres of the same type to mean exactly that, the same type,meaning brand, size, speed rating etc.

With regards to people saying you would have to be a race driver to feel the difference. Its worrying to think that there are people driving around with such a lack of knowledge of what is going on under them as they drive along.:rolleyes:

Tragedy · 11-02-2011 6:41am

T-Maxx wrote: »

You would really need to be a professional racing driver to notice the difference between tire brands - the bulk of motorists will never notice any difference. To buy top quality high performance branded rubber (for when a child just might run out in front of you:rolleyes:) is false security and extreme insurance.

Forget anecdotal experience, there are hundreds of tests showing the difference between tyre brands, especially when it comes to braking and wet performance.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: all you like, the facts are that different tyres perform signficantly differently. Surprise!

I suppose winter tyres are a scam too?

tossy · 11-02-2011 7:16am

T-Maxx wrote: »

You would really need to be a professional racing driver to notice the difference between tire brands - the bulk of motorists will never notice any difference. To buy top quality high performance branded rubber (for when a child just might run out in front of you:rolleyes:) is false security and extreme insurance.

Probably one of the most ridiculous statements i've ever read on this site.

SV · 11-02-2011 8:07am

T-Maxx wrote: »

You would really need to be a professional racing driver to notice the difference between tire brands - the bulk of motorists will never notice any difference. To buy top quality high performance branded rubber (for when a child just might run out in front of you:rolleyes:) is false security and extreme insurance.

Just..leave..and never come back.

slimjimmc · 11-02-2011 12:18pm

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I don't have a link to the laws, I didn't get them online, I have literature somewhere from training I was doing with Bridgestone.

I would only take tyres of the same type to mean exactly that, the same type,meaning brand, size, speed rating etc.

With regards to people saying you would have to be a race driver to feel the difference. Its worrying to think that there are people driving around with such a lack of knowledge of what is going on under them as they drive along.:rolleyes:

I was able to find 92/23/EEC which seems to be the relevant legislation. It's best to read the consolidated version 2006-01-01 (PDF) as it includes all subsequent amendments currently in force.

Appendix IV

3.2. Tyre fitment
3.2.1. All of the tyres fitted to a vehicle, excluding any temporary use spare, must have the same structure (see Annex II section 2.3).
3.2.2. All of the tyres fitted to one axle must be of the same type (see Annex II section 2.1).
3.2.3. The space in which the wheel revolves must be such as to allow unrestricted movement when using the maximum permissible size of tyres within the suspension and steering constraints provided by the vehicle manufacturer.

It says that you must use exactly identical tyres on the same axle, which indeed makes good sense. But it only requires that all tyres be structurally the same, so you could have a pair of Dunlops on front and a pair of Nankangs on the back and still be legal if they have the EU mark and same construction.

It also says that all tyres must meet the speed rating of the car but doesn't say they must be the same rating. If your car requires H you can fit any combination from H up, but you can't fit any tyre less than H.

There may be something else which states all types must be identical but I can't find it. Individual countries may higher demands than the Directive but that's not binding elsewhere.

Esel · 11-02-2011 12:33pm

Are you sure 'same type' does not just mean radial or cross-ply?

BostonB · 11-02-2011 12:36pm

Esel wrote: »

Are you sure 'same type' does not just mean radial or cross-ply?

I understood thats what hes saying. Same construction etc.

slimjimmc · 11-02-2011 2:15pm

No, "type of tyre" is different to "structure" as it is specific to the manufacturer.

link

1. DEFINITIONS
2. For the purposes of this Directive:
2.1. ‘type of tyre’ means a category of tyres which do not differ in such essential respects as:
2.1.1. manufacturer's name or trade mark;
2.1.2. tyre-size designation;
2.1.3. category of use:
— normal: normal road-use tyre,
— special: special-use tyre, e.g. tyre for mixed use (both on and off the road) and at restricted speed,
— snow tyre,
— temporary-use spare tyre;
2.1.4. structure (diagonal (bias-ply), bias-belted, radial-ply);
2.1.5. speed category;
2.1.6. load capacity index;
2.1.7. tyre cross-section;

2.3. ‘structure’ of a tyre means the technical characteristics of the tyre's carcass. The following structures are distinguished in particular:
2.3.1. ‘diagonal’ or ‘bias-ply’ describes a tyre structure in which the ply cords extend to the bead and are laid at alternate angles of substantially less than 90o to the centreline of the tread;
2.3.2. ‘bias-belted’ describes a tyre structure of diagonal (bias-ply) type in which the carcass is restricted by a belt comprising two or more layers of substantially inextensible cord material laid at alternate angles close to those of the carcass;
2.3.3. ‘radial’ describes a tyre structure in which the ply cords extend to the beads and are laid substantially at 90o to the centreline of the tread, the carcass being stabilized by an essentially inextensible circumferential belt;
2.3.4. ‘reinforce’ describes a tyre structure in which the carcass is more resistant than that of the corresponding standard tyre;
2.3.5. ‘temporary-use spare tyre’ means a tyre different from a tyre intended to be fitted to any vehicle for normal driving conditions; but intended only for temporary use under restricted driving conditions;
2.3.6. ‘T-type temporary-use spare tyre’ means a type of temporary-use spare tyre designed for use at inflation pressure higher than those established for standard and reinforced tyres;

paddydriver · 11-02-2011 4:29pm

Jayzus... this is all great information. I am still going out and paying mad money for my Michelin Primacy HP's

T-Maxx · 11-02-2011 8:15pm

Jaysus, there I was thinking that common sense would prevail nowadays and that people would start copping on! Brand snobbery is still alive and well it seems!

Anyways, my budget tyres are getting me from A to B in the same time as everybody else.:cool:

paddydriver · 11-02-2011 8:42pm

T-Maxx wrote: »

Jaysus, there I was thinking that common sense would prevail nowadays and that people would start copping on! Brand snobbery is still alive and well it seems!

Anyways, my budget tyres are getting me from A to B in the same time as everybody else.:cool:

Follow the thread and my earlier posts:rolleyes:..

My tyres transport my wife and 3 young kids around everyday and have done so safely for the last 23k miles so if you want to go buy your budget tyres then fire on - don't preach to me about brand snobbery.

If you wore the same kaks for 3 years and then you worried the cheap ones might give you itchy crotch... would you buy the cheap one's? No, you would go buy the ones that have worked well up to now; even if they were calvin kleins!

Hogzy · 11-02-2011 9:01pm

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I don't have a link to the laws, I didn't get them online, I have literature somewhere from training I was doing with Bridgestone.

Going through all your posts i knew you didnt have a clue what you were on about RE: European Union law and tyre specification/safety. I knew you wouldnt be able to show a link to the legislation on tyres because no such law exists and if it does then trust me Ireland would be complying with it. If they were not they would be paying MASSIVE fines daily for every day that they are in breach of EU law. I have spent the last 3-4 years of my life studying EU law and if Ireland is in breach of any Directives or Regulations then everyone will hear about it because our financial system could not take the fines that the EU would be handing out.

mcwhirter · 11-02-2011 9:30pm

I wouldn't cut costs on tyres, buy the best you can afford.

Check out reviews etc, I have had bad experiences with Wanli tyres and Nankang, Wanlis were the worst, sliding all over the place in the wet, nankang not as bad but not much grip in wet either.

Since then I have fitted vredestein, pirelli and nokian, much much better.

Buy them online to save money

Nonoperational · 11-02-2011 11:06pm

T-Maxx you have seriously let yourself down with statements like that. It's embarassing for you and I for one will never even have a second glance at anything you post on here again. I don't think I've seen many more foolish and headstrong posts on boards in all my time here.

Have a look at any tyre comparisson online and then think about your statement again. Best of luck to you if you are going to use cheap tyres but I am 100% certain you are wrong in what you say.

Nissan doctor · 12-02-2011 1:21am

Hogzy wrote: »

Going through all your posts i knew you didn't have a clue what you were on about RE: European Union law and tyre specification/safety. I knew you wouldn't be able to show a link to the legislation on tyres because no such law exists and if it does then trust me Ireland would be complying with it. If they were not they would be paying MASSIVE fines daily for every day that they are in breach of EU law. I have spent the last 3-4 years of my life studying EU law and if Ireland is in breach of any Directives or Regulations then everyone will hear about it because our financial system could not take the fines that the EU would be handing out.

I'm trying to imagine how many times your study of European law brings you across tyre legislation..

So far as I understand the legislation regarding tyre standards are European directives, not law as such, meaning that it is up to the member state to come up with its own means of implementing the directives, failing to do so does not necessarily lead to legal implications from the EU.
And the fact is that Ireland is beginning to implement the legislation. the 'e' mark has been around for years and yet Ireland has only been testing for this through the NCT for the last year or two, and I have already heard of several tyres being failed due to the tyre being over 5 years old according to the manufacture date on the sidewall so obviously this is being implemented too.

You need to call Bridgestone's soon to be northern European headquarters in Ireland and also goodyear/dunlop Ireland and tell them they are wasting their time and money implementing European tyre directives that don't exist.

The laws I have mentioned above have been around for some time and were drawn up by the German based TUV organisation which also provides the guidelines regarding European approval of tyres(amongst many other things)

There is further new legislation on the way regarding changes to tyre sidewall information and marking which the major manufacturers are already beginning to implement before they come in in 2012, in 2014, further to the current size and speed rating markings, tyres will also have to be marked with their economy rating(rolling resistance etc). This marking will be on all new EU approved tyres from 2014 and will be similar to the energy rating on appliances.

Merch · 12-02-2011 1:26am

T-Maxx wrote: »

Jaysus, there I was thinking that common sense would prevail nowadays and that people would start copping on! Brand snobbery is still alive and well it seems!

Anyways, my budget tyres are getting me from A to B in the same time as everybody else.:cool:

I dont believe in brand snobbery myself but I recently replace my two front tyres with firestone, only a moderate difference in price to the budget tyres I had on, Nankings, I didnt notice much difference in the dry, but in the wet and on roundabouts they were noticeably bad, if anyone else drove the car I had to warn them. I have noticed a big difference on roundabouts (and I'm not pushing too hard) . I only got the nankings as I had a previous budget tyre (called westlake) that performed ok, I would never go for a top price tyre as i dont have that kind of car or do that kind of driving, at least for my needs I'm pretty sure a moderate priced version will do the job, but never a budget brand again.

mcwhirter wrote: »

I wouldn't cut costs on tyres, buy the best you can afford. Check out reviews etc, I have had bad experiences with Wanli tyres and Nankang, Wanlis were the worst, sliding all over the place in the wet, nankang not as bad but not much grip in wet either.

Since then I have fitted vredestein, pirelli and nokian, much much better.

Buy them online to save money

I got some nokians for another car and they seem ok, but never heard of them before, I tried to get a set again but couldn't locate a seller that had them in stock or could tell me when they could order them, if those nankangs are the same as what I had, they are an absolute pile of sh**e

Nonoperational · 12-02-2011 1:30am

I think almost everyone that tries a better tyre after a budget ditch finder agrees with what the above poster says. Avoid the bargain basement chinese rubbish and go for a mid range and you will notice a big difference. The difference between budget and mid range is much bigger than mid range and high end.

Fishtits · 12-02-2011 1:43am

First the confession... fishtits trundles to & from work, does the odd blast on a motorway etc. ie, I wouldn't be one to test a regular tyre to its limits on my daily drivers...

However, I have also nearly 20 years experience of stage rallying & rallycross etc. so I think I have an idea re tyres

Road going stuff I always had Bridgestone, changed to Continental a year or two ago and have to say they are very (very) impressive. And reasonable too, unlike Michelin...

colm_mcm · 12-02-2011 3:01am

Toyo and vredestein both quite good price wise, wouldn't go cheaper than falken or kumho, really cheap stuff like triangle make a car dangerous, you get cars like auris 1.4 spinning the wheels on roundabouts and focuss oversteering. If moneys tight then used premium tyres a much better option.
Went down the remould route, bad choice.

mcwhirter · 12-02-2011 4:25pm

Merch wrote: »

I got some nokians for another car and they seem ok, but never heard of them before, I tried to get a set again but couldn't locate a seller that had them in stock or could tell me when they could order them, if those nankangs are the same as what I had, they are an absolute pile of sh**e

I bought the nokian entyre online withe eiretyres, best tyres I 've had, really quiet, good ride. Agree, Nankangs wheelspin far to easily in wet but the wanlis were in a different league of shyte. No wet grip, a loud hum constantly but they lasted forever, couldn't wait to get rid of them.

MASTER...of the bra · 13-02-2011 9:04pm

mcwhirter wrote: »

I bought the nokian entyre online withe eiretyres, best tyres I 've had, really quiet, good ride. Agree, Nankangs wheelspin far to easily in wet but the wanlis were in a different league of shyte. No wet grip, a loud hum constantly but they lasted forever, couldn't wait to get rid of them.

Is it still cheaper to buy online after getting someone to fit and balance them?

tossy · 13-02-2011 9:13pm

T-Maxx wrote: »

Anyways, my budget tyres are getting me from A to B in the same time as everybody else.:cool:

Yes but in an emergency the won't stop you before you hit B on a wet day like mine will

EDIT: Actually i think its time for a very technical diagram i drew for some one years ago to explain why i don't buy crap tyres...

T-Maxx · 13-02-2011 9:25pm

"Sigh"

Lads, we all know that different tires perform differently. The point I'm trying to make is that for the vast majority of motorists, that extra bit of performance that a premium tire provides, is of theoretical/hypothetical value only. At least it should be, because by god if you rely on stopping within x meters instead of x+10 because of your "superior" tires, you sure as hell don't deserve to be on a public road.

BTW, braking distance and road holding are also influenced by things such as suspension, brakes, vehicle weight and weight distribution, etc. How many of you rubber junkies have upgraded the brakes and suspension? How many consider stopping distance when you buy a car? Hell, why don't you just get rid of the family saloon and buy a sports car for that matter? Because everything is a trade-off, and for me, I can live with that extra bit of stopping distance and less grip and whatever, in exchange for a few extra '000 miles and cheaper initial cost.

Merch · 13-02-2011 11:00pm

I forgot about the annoying tendency to wheel spin on take off in the wet (not applying excess acceleration)
Shocks and tyres, no point in unnecessarily reducing the performance of any part of it intentionally for the sake of 15 euro per tyre.
Up to the individual owner.

Nissan doctor · 13-02-2011 11:22pm

T-Maxx wrote: »

"Sigh"

Lads, we all know that different tires perform differently. The point I'm trying to make is that for the vast majority of motorists, that extra bit of performance that a premium tire provides, is of theoretical/hypothetical value only. At least it should be, because by god if you rely on stopping within x meters instead of x+10 because of your "superior" tires, you sure as hell don't deserve to be on a public road.

BTW, braking distance and road holding are also influenced by things such as suspension, brakes, vehicle weight and weight distribution, etc. How many of you rubber junkies have upgraded the brakes and suspension? How many consider stopping distance when you buy a car? Hell, why don't you just get rid of the family saloon and buy a sports car for that matter? Because everything is a trade-off, and for me, I can live with that extra bit of stopping distance and less grip and whatever, in exchange for a few extra '000 miles and cheaper initial cost.

Its not about stopping shorter in everyday driving, its about stopping shorter in the situations that, thankfully, don't happen every day. You don't rely on your health insurance to help you when you get a paper cut do you??

And with regards to uprating the brakes and suspension, perhaps a better understanding of how a car works might help you on that one....
When you press the brakes, no matter how big they are, you transfer the friction of the brakes, through the hubs and wheels and finally through the tyres which grip the road and slow the car.

And when you are pressing the brakes, the weight of the car is transferred onto the front suspension(uprated or sports even as you suggest) which then presses down on the front tyres which grip the road and slow the car.

Put it more straight forward, if you drive a Bugatti veyron on ice and press the brakes what happens? Nothing, because the tyres have no grip!

There is ultimately nothing holding a car, any car from a Micra to an F1 car, on the road other then its Tyres!

mcwhirter · 15-02-2011 8:06pm

MASTER...of the bra wrote: »

Is it still cheaper to buy online after getting someone to fit and balance them?

Not sure but I couldn't get anyone to supply them for me. They were 106 euro each inc fitting/balancing. I was being quoted 90 euros for Triangle (not the best)tyres, so yes probably cheaper than buying them here.

BTW my spare spacesaver is a nokian if that counts for anything

Merch · 15-02-2011 9:03pm

Driving in the wet today, first time in a while,as hardly do much driving anymore, anyway was relieved to have the new tyres on the fron, even if they are firestones and quite cheap/ not much more expensive than the budget tyres, I'm sure I would have skidded in the old set on the front.

I'd be all for getting tyres online, mostly as you know what you are getting, thats one of my biggest complaints with tyre fitters here, dont know what Im being offerred, the brand yes but the tyre model no. are they equal to what I'm being charged/how do they perform inm different conditions.

Also u can add chengshan to the list of rubbish tyres

Outta curiosity, whats the cheapest budget tyres are going for, I found chengshan/nankang for 45 euro? for extra 15 euro I find a difference in the firestones I got

-Corkie- · 15-02-2011 9:05pm

What are Altezas like. I am not sure I have the spelling correct..

zilog_jones · 16-02-2011 7:41pm

"Altezza" is a Toyota, not sure what brand you're thinking of...

Potenza?

-Corkie- · 21-02-2011 9:19pm

It is altenzo tyres. Anyone use them???. They got a good enough review on a few Bimmer forums..

Inspector Coptoor · 21-02-2011 9:34pm

I do about 25000 miles per year in a skoda superb and had 4 Hankook Tyres on the car when I bought it. Put four Pirellis on it there a while ago and they are great.

400 including tracking

Branded Vs. Generic tyres?

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