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Living abroad: right to vote in next referendum

  • 09-10-2014 8:20pm
    #1
    iwanttovote
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭iwanttovote


    I am interested in next year's referendum about legalising gay marriage. A bit of Googling showed me that since I am living abroad, I won't have any right to participate in this referendum.

    I feel this is completely unfair and discriminatory. This is not like the local elections, or even to some extent the national elections, where it may be considered reasonable to forfeit your vote due to you not directly paying income tax. This is an important social referendum which will have long-term consequences on the country. I am still a citizen of Republic of Ireland and I feel it is my obligation to vote.

    I chose to emigrate five years ago due to an absence of the industry I wanted to work in. This does not suddenly stop me being Irish or stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up (and will face when coming back) any less significant.

    How can I guarantee my vote?
    Tagged:


«134

Comments

  • #2
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    iwanttovote wrote: »
    I am interested in next year's referendum about legalising gay marriage. A bit of Googling showed me that since I am living abroad, I won't have any right to participate in this referendum.

    I feel this is completely unfair and discriminatory. This is not like the local elections, or even to some extent the national elections, where it may be considered reasonable to forfeit your vote due to you not directly paying income tax. This is an important social referendum which will have long-term consequences on the country. I am still a citizen of Republic of Ireland and I feel it is my obligation to vote.

    I chose to emigrate five years ago due to an absence of the industry I wanted to work in. This does not suddenly stop me being Irish or stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up (and will face when coming back) any less significant.

    How can I guarantee my vote?
    Move home. If your not in the country the law doesn't apply to you.
    Failing that get a state job abroad, then you'll have a postal vote.


  • #3
    iwanttovote
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭iwanttovote


    ted1 wrote: »
    Move home. If your not in the country the law doesn't apply to you.
    Failing that get a state job abroad, then you'll have a postal vote.

    I completely disagree with this attitude.

    Where I live I don't even have the right to vote in national referendums. I'm politically voiceless due to the fact that I wanted try something different for a number of years before returning home.


  • #4
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    iwanttovote wrote: »
    I completely disagree with this attitude.

    Where I live I don't even have the right to vote in national referendums. I'm politically voiceless due to the fact that I wanted try something different for a number of years before returning home.

    Because you live abroad, what happens in this country is of very little effect to you.

    come back to Ireland be part of society, and then have your say. if your not in you can't win.


  • #5
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    ted1 wrote: »
    Because you live abroad, what happens in this country is of very little effect to you.

    come back to Ireland be part of society, and then have your say. if your not in you can't win.


    Agree, there are too many people who abandoned this country who want to run it from a remote distance.


  • #6
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    Godge wrote: »
    Agree, there are too many people who abandoned this country who want to run it from a remote distance.

    Curious though that Ireland is in a club of two along with Malta on votes for citizens abroad. Official Ireland wouldn't be as blasé as it is about emigration if citizens kept their vote on the same basis as every other normal democracy.


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  • #7
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Its possible to fly back and vote but that is breaking the law.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #8
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    iwanttovote wrote: »
    I completely disagree with this attitude.

    Where I live I don't even have the right to vote in national referendums. I'm politically voiceless due to the fact that I wanted try something different for a number of years before returning home.

    But how does the state know you'll ever return to live in the county at all?

    I don't think it's right that people not living in the country get to vote on anything that affects the country, be it elections of any type or referendum. And I say that as someone who lived outside of the state for a while.


  • #9
    Sub_Merged
    Site Banned Posts: 11 ✭Sub_Merged


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its possible to fly back and vote but that is breaking the law.
    Im not doubting you, but what law? if you're still on the voting register...


  • #10
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #11
    hoodwinked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭hoodwinked


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    i looked this up recently as i am moving out of the electoral area of the person i want to vote for, i wanted to register at my parents address to vote, i was told by this person that i cannot as it is fraudulent, if i were to do this i could be in legal trouble if i was caught.

    if the rules bolded below do not apply to you, you are committing fraud by saying you are resident when you are not and voting when you are not eligible to vote.

    To be eligible to be included in the Register of Electors, you must:

    Be at least 18 years old on the day the Register comes into force (15 February)
    Have been ordinarily resident in the State on 1 September in the year preceding the coming into force of the Register.

    Students living away from home while attending college have the choice of being registered at either their home address or their student residential address.

    You must be registered at one address only and you must live at that address on 1 September before the register comes into force. If you live away from the address at which you are registered, you will need to contact the registration authority and give them your new address.

    If you leave your address but you plan to return there within 18 months, you can continue to be registered there, as long you do not register at any other address.


    also it specifically states:
    Overseas voters

    If you are an Irish citizen living abroad you cannot be entered on the Register of Electors. This means that you cannot vote in an election or referendum here in Ireland. (The only exception to this is in the case of Irish officials on duty abroad (and their spouses) who may register on the postal voters list).


    From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html


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  • #12
    MouseTail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    This discussion formed part of the Constitutional Convention (they voted in favour). You can view updates and submissions at constitution.ie. There may very well be a referendum on this, but if there is, I can't see it being carried.


  • #13
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    iwanttovote wrote: »
    I am interested in next year's referendum about legalising gay marriage. A bit of Googling showed me that since I am living abroad, I won't have any right to participate in this referendum.

    I feel this is completely unfair and discriminatory. This is not like the local elections, or even to some extent the national elections, where it may be considered reasonable to forfeit your vote due to you not directly paying income tax. This is an important social referendum which will have long-term consequences on the country. I am still a citizen of Republic of Ireland and I feel it is my obligation to vote.

    I chose to emigrate five years ago due to an absence of the industry I wanted to work in. This does not suddenly stop me being Irish or stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up (and will face when coming back) any less significant.

    How can I guarantee my vote?




    I hear you. There have been a number of threads touching on this topic. Personally unlike it seems quite a number of others here I would be in favour of Irish born citizens being allowed to vote in all elections and referendums.
    Ireland is one of only a handful of countries who deny natural born citizens living abroad some form of right to vote.
    For me I find it very hypocritical of Ireland always putting out the begging bowl to successful emigrants looking for money investment etc yet otherwise its sit down and shut up. You have no say here.
    Reality is there could easily be an emigrant constituency set up in the Dail say with 3 seats that those living abroad could vote for. That way those living abroad get a say in Ireland but in no way distort the process. This would I believe be a real rallying point and incentive for some of the many highly talanted and successful Irish born living abroad to really come together and look at ways to help build a positive and successful Ireland.


    I would be supportive of Irish born citizens living abroad being allowed to vote in Presidential elections and referendums as well.


  • #14
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #15
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    Godge wrote: »
    Agree, there are too many people who abandoned this country who want to run it from a remote distance.


    Abandoned wow that is a very pejorative way to describe emigrants. Firstly please explain exactly what you mean rather then putting out blanket emotional statements like that. How exactly did many emigrants "abandon" Ireland? What exactly are they supposed to be doing in Ireland instead of emigrating?


    Secondly It is clear that the current Irish government was very happy to see so many leave. We even had a minister encouraging people to emigrate in a letter. So if there was any abandoning going on here I would suggest it was on the part of the Irish government.


  • #16
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.



    Wow how dare Irish citizens for wanting to vote for non mainstream parties. Do you actually have any facts to back up this statement that Irish emigrants vote as you suggest they do?
    For instance here is one Ballotbox.ie which is a site supporting voting rights for Irish citizens living abroad. During the last presidential election they ran a race on their site and Michael D Higgins won with 41%.


    In any case according to the most recent polls it seems 24% of the Irish electorate are inclined to vote Sinn Fein right now. The same as Fine Gael with no other party matching those numbers. Should we strike all those daring not to vote for mainstream parties from the electoral register?


    Last time I checked the mainstream to use your word parties have not exactly covered themselves in glory when it comes to governing this country.


    It has been estimated that there are in the region of 800,000 Irish born citizens currently living abroad.


  • #17
    iwanttovote
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭iwanttovote


    I think we should recognise that a lot of emigrants left Ireland, not because they are 'traitors' as some would suggest, but because of political, economical and social issues. We could make the argument that many of the people who stayed did so because they could, not because they are more patriotic than others. Their lifestyle choices may not have been ridiculed and scrutinised or their jobs may have been more secure. Obviously this doesn't apply to every single person in the country, but I think we can generalise a little.

    The diaspora are as Irish as anybody else and should have some say in the direction that their country will take in the future. If we ignore their voices then the status quo is never challenged.


  • #18
    irelandrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    ted1 wrote: »
    Because you live abroad, what happens in this country is of very little effect to you.

    come back to Ireland be part of society, and then have your say. if your not in you can't win.

    If this is the case then why is it only Irish citizens that can vote in referendum.

    Foreign people living in Ireland who pay taxes and form part of society are not allowed to vote. Seems a huge double standard to me.


  • #19
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    iwanttovote wrote: »
    I think we should recognise that a lot of emigrants left Ireland, not because they are 'traitors' as some would suggest...

    Nobody has suggested that.


  • #20
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,032 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    I've no problem with giving non residential citizens the vote once they pay some of their income taxes here. They want a say in how they want the country run then they need to be paying in, can't have a vote without the pain.


  • #21
    MouseTail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    The famous no representation without taxation. One of the biggest arguments against the extension of the vote.


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  • #22
    irelandrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I've no problem with giving non residential citizens the vote once they pay some of their income taxes here. They want a say in how they want the country run then they need to be paying in, can't have a vote without the pain.

    Again, if this is your stance are you in favour of giving foreign citizens living in Ireland the right to vote?


  • #23
    iwanttovote
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭iwanttovote


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Nobody has suggested that.

    Nobody on this thread thus far, but there seems to be a sentiment all the same and it goes hand in hand with the disenfranchisement of emigres.

    Check out the Irish times article: Ireland Abandoners: Did it raise your ire, or a valid point? (I can't link to it because I'm a new user).


  • #24
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    iwanttovote wrote: »
    Nobody on this thread thus far, but there seems to be a sentiment all the same and it goes hand in hand with the disenfranchisement of emigres.

    Check out the Irish times article: Ireland Abandoners: Did it raise your ire, or a valid point? (I can't link to it because I'm a new user).

    Does it call them traitors?


  • #25
    iwanttovote
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭iwanttovote


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I've no problem with giving non residential citizens the vote once they pay some of their income taxes here. They want a say in how they want the country run then they need to be paying in, can't have a vote without the pain.

    Many emigrants had done so for years as well as copious amounts of other taxes. If you take a break from labouring at home to go and try something new, should all their previous financial contributions to the state be annulled until their point of return? The point is, I'm not referring to local elections where it may affect a particular residence in the short term. I'm referring to national referendums which shape the direction of the country in the long term. All Irish citizens should be allowed to determine the future of their country.


  • #26
    iwanttovote
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭iwanttovote


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Does it call them traitors?


    It definitely insinuates it.


  • #27
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    MouseTail wrote: »
    The famous no representation without taxation. One of the biggest arguments against the extension of the vote.



    And one of the biggest red herrings. Firstly anyone buying a product or service in Ireland is paying tax. But I assume your talking about income tax.


    So based on what your suggesting then all the poor, unemployed, those who maybe cannot work because of an injury or disability, the homeless all these people should be not allowed to vote because they don't pay income tax. No thanks not the kind of idea I would be supporting.


    How about people who do pay income tax but for various reasons receive more in welfare payments of different kinds. Should they be kicked off the voting rolls as well?


    No thanks I think I would prefer to live in and push for an inclusive Ireland including our Irish born emigrants rather then the above.


  • #28
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    iwanttovote wrote: »
    It definitely insinuates it.



    and saying someone abandoned the country is hardly a neutral statement either.


  • #29
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Godge wrote: »
    Agree, there are too many people who abandoned this country who want to run it from a remote distance.

    And there's a lot of people who had to leave this country because, in a very real sense, they were abandonded by this country. Seems people who are forced to leave are doubly damned- damned as dole scroungers etc if they say, damned as abandoning the place if they leave. Pretty sh1tty attitude in my opinion.


  • #30
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,032 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    irelandrover wrote: »
    Again, if this is your stance are you in favour of giving foreign citizens living in Ireland the right to vote?

    If they qualify then yes, how they qualify is the problem. As they are actually living in the country they should have a more of a say than people not living here.
    iwanttovote wrote: »
    Many emigrants had done so for years as well as copious amounts of other taxes. If you take a break from labouring at home to go and try something new, should all their previous financial contributions to the state be annulled until their point of return? The point is, I'm not referring to local elections where it may affect a particular residence in the short term. I'm referring to national referendums which shape the direction of the country in the long term. All Irish citizens should be allowed to determine the future of their country.

    Still think that if you want to vote after you've left the country there should be some responsibility on you to the country, by making it compulsory to pay income tax it means that people are contributing fully to the country.


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  • #31
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    Del2005 wrote: »
    If they qualify then yes, how they qualify is the problem. As they are actually living in the country they should have a more of a say than people not living here.



    Still think that if you want to vote after you've left the country there should be some responsibility on you to the country, by making it compulsory to pay income tax it means that people are contributing fully to the country.





    Ok so basically what your saying is that the poor the unemployed, those with disabilities that prevent them from working the homeless etc all these people who don't pay income tax have to be kicked of the voting rolls and have their right to vote taken away from them.


    Now so far your saying all the above Irish residents are not allowed vote. How about those who do pay some income tax but receive back more in benefits from the government. Do you want to take away their right to vote also?


    To say I disagree with the above policy would be an understatement. We have massive problems with our democratic process as it is and the over centralisation of power for instance. But if we enacted your policy and kicked all those people off the voting rolls where do we stop. Is there going to be a certain level of tax or income required before your allowed to vote next.


    In my opinion instead of making our democracy less representative then it already is we need to look to expland it and encouraging the termendous potential that the many Irish born citizens living abroad hold is a positive way forward I believe. I feel that the different experiences and knowledge many emigrants have gained could be very valuable in helping rebuld our country in a positive way.


  • #32
    MouseTail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    There is more to taxation than income tax. In any case that phrase "no representation without taxation" is an international, not uniquely Irish one, and it generally is taken to mean both an economic and social contribution.

    why should an emigrant who has left Ireland 40 years ago have a say on national policy here? I would be more inclined to extend the franchise fully to residents but non citizens.


  • #33
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,032 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    eire4 wrote: »
    Ok so basically what your saying is that the poor the unemployed, those with disabilities that prevent them from working the homeless etc all these people who don't pay income tax have to be kicked of the voting rolls and have their right to vote taken away from them.

    Now so far your saying all the above Irish residents are not allowed vote. How about those who do pay some income tax but receive back more in benefits from the government. Do you want to take away their right to vote also?


    To say I disagree with the above policy would be an understatement. We have massive problems with our democratic process as it is and the over centralisation of power for instance. But if we enacted your policy and kicked all those people off the voting rolls where do we stop. Is there going to be a certain level of tax or income required before your allowed to vote next.

    Where did I say that? This is about granting non residents citizens the vote and nothing to do with resident citizens, who have a constitutional right to vote.
    eire4 wrote: »

    In my opinion instead of making our democracy less representative then it already is we need to look to expland it and encouraging the termendous potential that the many Irish born citizens living abroad hold is a positive way forward I believe. I feel that the different experiences and knowledge many emigrants have gained could be very valuable in helping rebuld our country in a positive way.

    If they want a say in the running of a country they've abandoned, for whatever reasons, they have to make a contribution to it. I'd be happy with the granting of non citizen residents voting rights before I'd give them to non resident citizens


  • #34
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    iwanttovote wrote: »
    I chose to emigrate five years ago due to an absence of the industry I wanted to work in. This does not suddenly stop me being Irish or stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up (and will face when coming back) any less significant.
    I emigrated over six years ago.

    Doing so did not suddenly stop me being Irish but it did stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up from being significant to me and it stopped me from being subject to the consequences of the decisions that I would supposedly have a say in if I did have a vote. Sure, could vote to leave the EU, or nationalize all industry or unify with the North, if I wanted to then, because if it goes horribly wrong, I won't have to deal with the consequences. The suckers in Ireland get to pay for my democratic right.

    Being abroad also means that you lose touch with what it is to be resident in Ireland, you take with you the attitudes and knowledge of Ireland five years ago, and it would be foolish to say that those have evolved in tandem with those who are still living there. Whenever I return to visit, I'm shocked by how much things have changed - do you even know how much a liter of milk costs in Ireland anymore? I don't.

    All before you ask yourself why should you have a vote? Just because you're a citizen? Well then everyone who had a grandfather who was a citizen, even though they may never even have stepped foot in Ireland would also have an equal say in the future of those who actually live there.

    Or how long should this right to vote last? My aunt left Ireland 50 years ago. It's a foreign country to her now. Her German is better than her English. When do you call a spade a spade and finally admit that perhaps you're de facto more a citizen of the community you live in than the passport you hold? You say you'll return, but will you? Heard that before from people who after 20+ are still abroad.

    And if reason won't sway you, perhaps self-interest might; or did you think you might be afforded such a right to vote without strings attached? What are the bets that with such a right to vote a duty to pay Irish taxes will also be introduced? I can see enthusiasm for non-resident democratic enfranchisement evaporating pretty quickly were that the case.

    I can see the attraction for an émigré where it comes to having a vote. But ultimately, it's a selfish indulgence. You and I left to make a life elsewhere and to ask to still determine the lives of those you left behind is really just looking to have your cake and eat it.


  • #35
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Where did I say that? This is about granting non residents citizens the vote and nothing to do with resident citizens, who have a constitutional right to vote.


    Here is when you said that in response to iwanttovote.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iwanttovote viewpost.gif
    Many emigrants had done so for years as well as copious amounts of other taxes. If you take a break from labouring at home to go and try something new, should all their previous financial contributions to the state be annulled until their point of return? The point is, I'm not referring to local elections where it may affect a particular residence in the short term. I'm referring to national referendums which shape the direction of the country in the long term. All Irish citizens should be allowed to determine the future of their country.

    Your response:

    Still think that if you want to vote after you've left the country there should be some responsibility on you to the country, by making it compulsory to pay income tax it means that people are contributing fully to the country.





    Clearly based on what you have said above you are saying that as well as Irish born citizens living abroad the poor, the unempolyed and those with disabilities or who cannot work for some reason should all be denied the right to vote.
    Again I would ask are you then also in favour of taking away the right to vote from those who receive more in benefits then they pay in taxes as well as taking the right to vote away from all those above?


  • #36
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    If they want a say in the running of a country they've abandoned, for whatever reasons, they have to make a contribution to it. I'd be happy with the granting of non citizen residents voting rights before I'd give them to non resident citizens[/QUOTE]






    First off can we please stop with such pejorative terms. Secondly I would say that Irish born citizens have made many contributions that have benefited Ireland and continue to do so as shown by the Global Irish Economic Forum or the Global Irish Initiative.


    To quote Eammon Gilmore:


    ‘Engagement with our diaspora is of enormous importance for Ireland. Together, we have built economic links resulting in trade, investment and tourism. Our engagement has played an important role in efforts to bring a lasting peace to this island. It has also deepened ties of culture and kinship.


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  • #37
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I emigrated over six years ago.

    Doing so did not suddenly stop me being Irish but it did stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up from being significant to me and it stopped me from being subject to the consequences of the decisions that I would supposedly have a say in if I did have a vote. Sure, could vote to leave the EU, or nationalize all industry or unify with the North, if I wanted to then, because if it goes horribly wrong, I won't have to deal with the consequences. The suckers in Ireland get to pay for my democratic right.

    Being abroad also means that you lose touch with what it is to be resident in Ireland, you take with you the attitudes and knowledge of Ireland five years ago, and it would be foolish to say that those have evolved in tandem with those who are still living there. Whenever I return to visit, I'm shocked by how much things have changed - do you even know how much a liter of milk costs in Ireland anymore? I don't.

    All before you ask yourself why should you have a vote? Just because you're a citizen? Well then everyone who had a grandfather who was a citizen, even though they may never even have stepped foot in Ireland would also have an equal say in the future of those who actually live there.

    Or how long should this right to vote last? My aunt left Ireland 50 years ago. It's a foreign country to her now. Her German is better than her English. When do you call a spade a spade and finally admit that perhaps you're de facto more a citizen of the community you live in than the passport you hold? You say you'll return, but will you? Heard that before from people who after 20+ are still abroad.

    And if reason won't sway you, perhaps self-interest might; or did you think you might be afforded such a right to vote without strings attached? What are the bets that with such a right to vote a duty to pay Irish taxes will also be introduced? I can see enthusiasm for non-resident democratic enfranchisement evaporating pretty quickly were that the case.

    I can see the attraction for an émigré where it comes to having a vote. But ultimately, it's a selfish indulgence. You and I left to make a life elsewhere and to ask to still determine the lives of those you left behind is really just looking to have your cake and eat it.





    What I have been suggesting is the vote be extended to Irish born citizens living abroad. We have many talanted and successful people with much to offer Ireland who we should be encouraging to play a role in building a positive and prosperous Ireland. We can easily do this by having say in the Dail a 3 seat constituency for them which thus gives those Irish born citizens living abraod a voice but in no way distorts things. I would also say they should be allowed to vote in presidential elections and national referendums.




    Your taxation argument is a red herring. As I responded eleswhere if paying income tax was a requirement for voting then a very large chunk of the current eligible electorate would be having the right to vote taken away. The poor, the unemployed, the sick or unable to work due to disability etc. Plus then there would be the issue of do you then take away the right to vote from those who receive more in welfare from the government then they pay in taxes. The above is not the kind of direction I or I would guess the majority of Irish people except maybe some of the more wealthy would want to go.




    I am not suggesting that anybody with some Irish heritage be allowed to vote. I am and have consistently said Irish born citizens living abroad.




    Finally the right to vote has nothing to do with a persons knowledge of either complex or simple basic everyday issues. If there was some kind of test of knowledge required for someone to be allowed to vote then there is a heck of lot of Irish people currently on the voting rolls who would be getting kicked off!


  • #38
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    What I have been suggesting is the vote be extended to Irish born citizens living abroad.
    And those Irish who happened to have been born abroad but grew up in Ireland? Or those who just happened to be in Ireland when they were born but otherwise grew up elsewhere? Citizens naturalized through residency, who may later leave? Had you considered any these scenarios and how full of holes your criteria is?

    Indeed, I would not have a vote according to it. I was born abroad, and although I have an Irish mother and grew up and did almost all my schooling in Ireland, according to you, some guy who happened to be born in Ireland then emigrated permanently a week later, thus living almost their entire life abroad, would have the vote. Daft.
    We have many talanted and successful people with much to offer Ireland who we should be encouraging to play a role in building a positive and prosperous Ireland. We can easily do this by having say in the Dail a 3 seat constituency for them which thus gives those Irish born citizens living abraod a voice but in no way distorts things. I would also say they should be allowed to vote in presidential elections and national referendums.
    I have multiple citizenship's and one of them has such a 'special constituency' set up I get to vote in. Let me assure you, it's a joke.

    And, BTW, we already have voting rights for Irish citizens abroad - for the Seanad university seats. So if it means this much to you, go get yourself a degree.
    Your taxation argument is a red herring. As I responded eleswhere if paying income tax was a requirement for voting then a very large chunk of the current eligible electorate would be having the right to vote taken away.
    I'm afraid your logic is flawed. If you have no income then you don't pay income tax, regardless of where you live. The US already operate in this manner; non resident citizens are only libel to pay income tax, but libel only means that you have to pay if you qualify to do so. So your rebuttal is the red herring, not the possibility of expatriate taxation which is already practiced by a small number of nations.
    I am not suggesting that anybody with some Irish heritage be allowed to vote. I am and have consistently said Irish born citizens living abroad.
    Which, as I pointed out above, is not a terribly well thought out criteria.
    Finally the right to vote has nothing to do with a persons knowledge of either complex or simple basic everyday issues. If there was some kind of test of knowledge required for someone to be allowed to vote then there is a heck of lot of Irish people currently on the voting rolls who would be getting kicked off!
    The right to vote is the enfranchisement of the citizen to have a say in their community. Lack of knowledge is not a reason to deny this, but it is a telling sign of the flaw in your logic as it betrays the fact that they are not actually part of that community.

    What ultimately should deny such a right is that you or I do not have to deal with the consequences of such democratic choices. We won't have to see our taxes hiked up because we might have repeatedly voted in Fianna Fail governments who then screwed up the economy. Actually, for us the incentive would be to screw up the economy - that way we can pick up a holiday home for when we visit on the cheap.

    There's an idea - I might vote Sinn Fein just so I can watch them implement their Mickey Mouse economic policies, send Ireland back to the eighties or worse and then I can pick up a nice five-bed for 40 thousand Punt Nua, which will be valued at 0.20 Swiss Francs. Nice.


  • #39
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    And those Irish who happened to have been born abroad but grew up in Ireland? Or those who just happened to be in Ireland when they were born but otherwise grew up elsewhere? Citizens naturalized through residency, who may later leave? Had you considered any these scenarios and how full of holes your criteria is?




    Yes I have indeed considered those criteria. I was using the criteria I mentioned as a starting off point. There are certainly other situations that would need to be looked at and decisions made on such as those you describe above no doubt about it.

    I have multiple citizenship's and one of them has such a 'special constituency' set up I get to vote in. Let me assure you, it's a joke.



    Well your entitled to your opinion certainly as I am mine. I disagree and believe that Irelands emigrant situation makes this a very attractive way of engaging our diaspora and giving them a voice and encouraging them to play a signifiacnt role in building a better and more positive Ireland going forward.
    And, BTW, we already have voting rights for Irish citizens abroad - for the Seanad university seats. So if it means this much to you, go get yourself a degree.


    I do have a degree. But not all colleges in Ireland get to vote in Seanad elections. Besides the Seanad is a whole other issue really. That body needs to be reformed as part of reforming our overall system of government which is too centralised in terms of power in my opinion.
    I'm afraid your logic is flawed. If you have no income then you don't pay income tax, regardless of where you live. The US already operate in this manner; non resident citizens are only libel to pay income tax, but libel only means that you have to pay if you qualify to do so. So your rebuttal is the red herring, not the possibility of expatriate taxation which is already practiced by a small number of nations.



    Well again we will disagree. Taxation is a red herring. The idea that a persons right to vote is dependant on them paying income tax is a dangerous slippery slope back to the days of property rights etc when it comes to voting rights. When it comes to the poor, the unemployed and others who receive more welfare then they pay in income taxes for instance they all can and do earn income. How many people actually earn zero income?

    The right to vote is the enfranchisement of the citizen to have a say in their community. Lack of knowledge is not a reason to deny this, but it is a telling sign of the flaw in your logic as it betrays the fact that they are not actually part of that community.


    No you missed my point completely it seems. I was saying there are plently of people living in Ireland currently eligible to vote who waould have to be kicked off the voting rolls if a certain test of knowledge was required to be allowed to vote. In todays world with the internet and information being so easily available there is no problem for an Irish person living abroad to keep up to date with topics at home.


  • #40
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    eire4 wrote: »
    To quote Eammon Gilmore:


    ‘Engagement with our diaspora is of enormous importance for Ireland. Together, we have built economic links resulting in trade, investment and tourism. Our engagement has played an important role in efforts to bring a lasting peace to this island. It has also deepened ties of culture and kinship.

    Is that the same Eamon Gilmore who wants to undermine democracy via gender quotas?


  • #41
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    Yes I have indeed considered those criteria. I was using the criteria I mentioned as a starting off point. There are certainly other situations that would need to be looked at and decisions made on such as those you describe above no doubt about it.
    Then how about you come back here when you've considered those, and other, criteria properly and come back with something more than a half baked idea? The onus is on you to sell this to the rest of us, after all, and if even another expat isn't buying it, it doesn't bode well for it's viability.
    Well your entitled to your opinion certainly as I am mine. I disagree and believe that Irelands emigrant situation makes this a very attractive way of engaging our diaspora and giving them a voice and encouraging them to play a signifiacnt role in building a better and more positive Ireland going forward.
    Except my opinion is based on direct practical experience, while yours is based on... nothing.
    I do have a degree. But not all colleges in Ireland get to vote in Seanad elections.
    As I said, if it's so important to you get a degree... from such a college.
    Well again we will disagree. Taxation is a red herring. The idea that a persons right to vote is dependant on them paying income tax is a dangerous slippery slope back to the days of property rights etc when it comes to voting rights. When it comes to the poor, the unemployed and others who receive more welfare then they pay in income taxes for instance they all can and do earn income. How many people actually earn zero income?
    I already addressed this ("non resident citizens are only libel to pay income tax, but libel only means that you have to pay if you qualify to do so"), so your'e either intentionally ignoring it or you don't know how it works.

    And I say "how it works" because it already exists. It's not theory. The US requires it's citizens to pay US federal income tax even if resident. Please inform yourself on how this system actually works, before claiming it's some sort of 'red herring'.
    No you missed my point completely it seems.
    No, your point is based upon your erroneous understanding of how expatriate taxation works, which has nothing to do with only being eligible to vote if you pay tax.

    And even if unemployed, someone in Ireland will have to suffer the consequences of their democratic choices that those abroad need not. It is idiotic to think that tax is the only possible one.

    I also note that you've concentrated on (unsuccessfully) rebutting only the taxation issue, which was really only the icing on the cake. You've actually failed to rebut anything else.

    In short, you've not thought through what you're arguing for, seem to be ignorant of how other countries who have expatriate taxation and/or voting work and appear to be basing your argument for on some dubious ulterior benefit.

    No sale.


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  • #42
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    Corinthian no onus on me at all to have to prove anything. If your not interested in encouraging Irish emigrants to vote and become involved and enganged in rebuilding Ireland fine no problem for me. That is your view point and your entitled to it. I simply have a different view point and believe there is much to be gained.


    Beyond that I can see you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants voting and I respect that. I do think it is unfortunate that some of your replies toward me were rather disrespectful though.


  • #43
    airportwater
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭airportwater


    eire4 wrote: »
    Yes I have indeed considered those criteria. I was using the criteria I mentioned as a starting off point. There are certainly other situations that would need to be looked at and decisions made on such as those you describe above no doubt about it.






    Well your entitled to your opinion certainly as I am mine. I disagree and believe that Irelands emigrant situation makes this a very attractive way of engaging our diaspora and giving them a voice and encouraging them to play a signifiacnt role in building a better and more positive Ireland going forward.




    I do have a degree. But not all colleges in Ireland get to vote in Seanad elections. Besides the Seanad is a whole other issue really. That body needs to be reformed as part of reforming our overall system of government which is too centralised in terms of power in my opinion.





    Well again we will disagree. Taxation is a red herring. The idea that a persons right to vote is dependant on them paying income tax is a dangerous slippery slope back to the days of property rights etc when it comes to voting rights. When it comes to the poor, the unemployed and others who receive more welfare then they pay in income taxes for instance they all can and do earn income. How many people actually earn zero income?





    No you missed my point completely it seems. I was saying there are plently of people living in Ireland currently eligible to vote who waould have to be kicked off the voting rolls if a certain test of knowledge was required to be allowed to vote. In todays world with the internet and information being so easily available there is no problem for an Irish person living abroad to keep up to date with topics at home.

    Completely agree with you, mate. I dislike the rhetoric that if you aren't *currently* paying income tax you should have no voice. No every vote is about spending the people's PAYE. People seem to have ignored the OPs question, he's looking for a way to vote in the LGBT referendum next year. Clearly this is a social issue more so than a financial one. I have family who left Ireland due to the legal status of gays. I'm sure this is important to them too.

    Besides, even if it *were* about financial things. Maybe people have already paid something before they left? Maybe they intend to return and pay in the future? It's ridiculous that when you say this, people on this forum attack you and say "well, should we give the vote to those with Irish passports who've barely set foot in the country?" Pointing out corner cases is a stupid argument. People should be grateful that the Irish who left are still interested in their home and want to participate.

    Just because *one* poster here doesn't give a f*ck about the country since he left doesn't mean he speaks for everybody. Fair enough if he feels more close to his new culture and government, but many of us hold our nation dear to our hearts, want the best for it, and are sad that we had little choice but to leave.

    Fair play to you and don't let the others discourage you.


  • #44
    FISMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭FISMA


    Godge wrote: »
    Agree, there are too many people who abandoned this country who want to run it from a remote distance.

    The problem is when brain drain leaves too many gob$hite voters running the auld sod...


  • #45
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    airportwater wrote: »
    Completely agree with you, mate. I dislike the rhetoric that if you aren't *currently* paying income tax you should have no voice. No every vote is about spending the people's PAYE. People seem to have ignored the OPs question, he's looking for a way to vote in the LGBT referendum next year. Clearly this is a social issue more so than a financial one. I have family who left Ireland due to the legal status of gays. I'm sure this is important to them too.

    Besides, even if it *were* about financial things. Maybe people have already paid something before they left? Maybe they intend to return and pay in the future? It's ridiculous that when you say this, people on this forum attack you and say "well, should we give the vote to those with Irish passports who've barely set foot in the country?" Pointing out corner cases is a stupid argument. People should be grateful that the Irish who left are still interested in their home and want to participate.

    Just because *one* poster here doesn't give a f*ck about the country since he left doesn't mean he speaks for everybody. Fair enough if he feels more close to his new culture and government, but many of us hold our nation dear to our hearts, want the best for it, and are sad that we had little choice but to leave.

    Fair play to you and don't let the others discourage you.




    Thanks for the support. We have many very talanted people who have accomplished a lot in their careers since leaving Ireland. I for one am someone who strongly believes we should be doing everything to encourage them to participate in building a better Ireland for all of us not just for a certain elite and I say that in as much a social sense as an econmoic one.


  • #46
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    FISMA wrote: »
    The problem is when brain drain leaves too many gob$hite voters running the auld sod...



    For me one problem we have is our political system has power way to centralised. I think we need to look at ways to change this.


  • #47
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    Corinthian no onus on me at all to have to prove anything. If your not interested in encouraging Irish emigrants to vote and become involved and enganged in rebuilding Ireland fine no problem for me. That is your view point and your entitled to it. I simply have a different view point and believe there is much to be gained.
    This is a discussion board, not your private soapbox where you can preach whatever nonsense you feel like preaching without being questioned, and as you are the one arguing for the changing the current status quo, the onus is on you to make an argument for doing so.
    Beyond that I can see you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants voting and I respect that. I do think it is unfortunate that some of your replies toward me were rather disrespectful though.
    And you clearly have no idea what I've been discussing as I, being an Irish emigrant, I certainly do not have views 'against' Irish emigrants and to suggest that I do because I do not agree with you is just a cheap dismissal. I've stated why it's a bad idea, on a number of levels. You tried, unsuccessfully, to dismiss this and so now you're turning to the "he must hate Irish emigrants" argument which is a bit pathetic, and ironic, TBH.

    You've come here and proposed a half-baked idea, full of flaws that you've refused to address (although you acknowledge they exist) and have ignored the fundamental reasons I gave why such representation is a bad idea to begin with. If you don't want to defend your views, all well and good, but then while you may be entitled to them, you are not entitled to have them respected. That's how democracy works.
    airportwater wrote: »
    I dislike the rhetoric that if you aren't *currently* paying income tax you should have no voice.
    No one argued for that.


  • #48
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    This is a discussion board, not your private soapbox where you can preach whatever nonsense you feel like preaching without being questioned, and as you are the one arguing for the changing the current status quo, the onus is on you to make an argument for doing so.

    And you clearly have no idea what I've been discussing as I, being an Irish emigrant, I certainly do not have views 'against' Irish emigrants and to suggest that I do because I do not agree with you is just a cheap dismissal. I've stated why it's a bad idea, on a number of levels. You tried, unsuccessfully, to dismiss this and so now you're turning to the "he must hate Irish emigrants" argument which is a bit pathetic, and ironic, TBH.

    You've come here and proposed a half-baked idea, full of flaws that you've refused to address (although you acknowledge they exist) and have ignored the fundamental reasons I gave why such representation is a bad idea to begin with. If you don't want to defend your views, all well and good, but then while you may be entitled to them, you are not entitled to have them respected. That's how democracy works.

    No one argued for that.





    It is quite sad how angry and disrespectful of anothers opinions you are. But that is what it is.


    Yes this is a discusion board and I enjoy seeing what others think and say on here. I have been very clear in what I believe. I have acknowledged that who exactly would be entitled to vote is an issue that would need to be looked at and worked on. I used Irish citizens living abroad as a starting point and I think they would form the core of those given emigrant voting rights.




    I am aware your an Irish emigrant. My opinion on your views were quite clearly that you were against votes for Irish emigrants which you have consistently shown your strongly against. So cut out the attempt to suggest that my statements were you hate emigrants. I clearly have different beliefs in that I think Irish emigrants have much to contribute to our country and giving them some forms of voting rights is a good way to encourage them to become more engaged in Ireland. Just because you do not feel it is something positive in another country that does not mean it is not something that can be very positive for Ireland.




    I have over a number of posts given my opinions on Irish emigrant voting rights on and on why I think they are positive.


    Clearly you will never respect my views and that is fine I have no problem with that. I would only suggest it might be better to be less disrespecful in at least how you address someone else. But thats your call whether you want to do that or not.


  • #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    In the recent Scottish referendum any scots living South of the border couldn't vote, I see this as fair.

    If you want to change the country you need to live in that country, don't be moaning from across the sea because you upped and left, many didn't leave and today are still fighting to get the country of its knees.

    It's only right that those who stayed and live in Ireland get a vote. Those who left made their bed, nobody is denying them a vote, but they have to be living here to have that vote.


  • #50
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Deleted User wrote: »
    In the recent Scottish referendum any scots living South of the border couldn't vote, I see this as fair.

    If you want to change the country you need to live in that country, don't be moaning from across the sea because you upped and left, many didn't leave and today are still fighting to get the country of its knees.

    It's only right that those who stayed and live in Ireland get a vote. Those who left made their bed, nobody is denying them a vote, but they have to be living here to have that vote.

    I fully agree with this and with Corinthian on this.

    Those who left since 2008 for a better life haven't had to put their shoulder to the wheel to help this country recover. Why should they have a vote in our future?


  • #51
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    It is quite sad how angry and disrespectful of anothers opinions you are. But that is what it is.
    And ironically it is rather sad and disrespectful of you to ignore the opinions of others, which is what you have done here.
    So cut out the attempt to suggest that my statements were you hate emigrants.
    And what was "you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants" supposed to mean other than I am anti-emigrants, so with due respects, you're not being very honest.
    I have over a number of posts given my opinions on Irish emigrant voting rights on and on why I think they are positive.
    Except you've not really argued that we would have much to contribute beyond claiming that we have much to contribute in the vaguest of terms. Simultaneously you've ignored arguments against, or seemingly perhaps not even understood them.

    You failed to address the problems with your system of deciding who gets the vote in the first place. You've ignored the point made on how once you leave Ireland you begin to lose touch with what it going on in Ireland, compared to someone actually living in Ireland. And you've completely blanked the point on how those of us abroad would be voting for policies that will not affect us - if we vote in a government that will cut spending to the bone, it won't make a difference to us. Raise taxes? Not our problem. Vote against abortion? No problem, we probably have it anyway where we live.

    We would be able to happily sit in our foreign host happy in the knowledge that our decisions will not affect us if they're wrong or mistaken. Instead those poor suckers 'back home' get to pay if they are. How do you stand on having a right to vote without any responsibility for the consiquences?

    Or would you like to pay Irish tax as well as the tax of your host country, like Americans do, when abroad? Not a 'red herring' I'm afraid, because it's something that's already practiced and could be implemented on Irish citizens abroad - the ultimate insult from a society with a tradition of exporting it's employment problems.

    You've ignored all these, and other, points and all you're doing is repeating your 'opinions'. Fine, but don't expect those opinions to be taken seriously by anyone paying attention to what you're saying.


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