Is it time for an economically right wing party?

K-9 · 04-11-2014 12:48pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I believe a lot of people who are looking for a new party, want a bigger welfare state and more government spending, taxes etc...

So when there are calls for a new party, I'd wonder what the breakdown is between wanting a new centreist, left or right leaning government.

That'll always exist, particularly in the current environment, though I do wonder how much of the shift to the left is more frustration at the old 2 and a half party system and no genuine alternative other than left wing parties, Reform Alliance types and the odd right wing independent. There's a lot of disillusioned FF and Labour leaning type voters out there that aren't particularly left leaning. FG is also losing some support.

In terms of "right wing" a lot of us want to live in a country, properly run for the benefit of all and not for hoards of vested interests. I want decent infrastructure, affordable housing, hard work rewarded etc. Is this right wing? Because I dont think anybody is calling for welfare to be slashed in half so they can have a few more euro a week in their pocket at the expense of the actual vulnerable, but there is far too much piss taking going on here...

I don't think that is a particularly right wing thing, nobody has to have a political leaning to be pissed off at Irish Water or excess in the HSE while essential services are cut.

I've always said the country is crying out for a Garret just society type party and in my view, that wasn't particularly left or right wing, more the decent and right thing to do wing! One that cares and provides for the disadvantaged (not just financially) but also is responsible (so fraud and waste are frowned on), is socially liberal and egalitarian (abortion laws should be reformed because it's the right thing to do instead of exporting the problem) and isn't selfish (tax cuts should be for the benefit of society and the economy, not just to have a few extra Euro in your pocket).

It sounds good to me, but why the lack of action? I hate the phrase "silent majority", but there has definitely been a significant section of voters interested in that.

adocholiday · 04-11-2014 1:31pm

K-9 wrote: »

It sounds good to me, but why the lack of action? I hate the phrase "silent majority", but there has definitely been a significant section of voters interested in that.

There might be a public willing to vote for such a party, but there are no politicians rushing to set it up. So what you have are those voters disillusioned with the current offerings (me for example) with no alternative aside from a few independents who (for the most part) are there to get the most for their own constituency. Many voters don't want to lose/waste their vote, so they vote for the devil they know.

I would be part of this 'silent minority' but as I've said earlier in this thread, at the next election if there is no alternative party then I will be abstaining from voting for the first time since I became eligible. There isn't a politician in Ireland at the moment that is worth my vote.

Permabear · 04-11-2014 1:56pm

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K-9 · 05-11-2014 12:24pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Indeed, right wingers no exception.

Maybe there's far too much thinking and talking about it from the likes of McDowell and Creighton and others but no action, like O'Malley in the 80's.

Permabear · 05-11-2014 12:59pm

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K-9 · 05-11-2014 1:14pm

Permabear wrote: »

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I really don't know, my suspicion as I said before is a lot of that is protest votes and disillusionment, we had until recently a pretty centrist 2 and a half party system. Thinking about it, we had both income redistribution and a low direct tax policy for about 25 years, I don't think one side was to blame, both at fault.

Hardworking middle-class people no longer accept that it's "fair" to have ever more of their income transferred to long-term welfare claimants.

The middle classes want a bit of "fairness" too, rather than being told that they're greedy if they want to keep more of the income they earned.

Maybe, but nobody is representing them at the minute. FG are hampered by coalition and a weak leader with no vision bar getting re-elected for the first time, which means no reform of Welfare.

Permabear · 05-11-2014 1:28pm

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Gloomtastic! · 05-11-2014 1:33pm

Absolute joke of a woman from the Socialist Party on Newstalk yesterday. Turns out she's a TD - Ruth Coppinger. 'Businesses should be run by committees' was something that stuck in my mind. :eek:

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/listen_back/8/14013/04th_November_2014_-_Moncrieff_Part_1 (about 5:30 minutes in)

It's like a religion to these people. If they have any sort of intelligence, they know what they believe is not possible but they still preach it wholeheartedly.

Permabear · 05-11-2014 1:41pm

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BoJack Horseman · 05-11-2014 1:42pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Absolute joke of a woman from the Socialist Party on Newstalk yesterday. Turns out she's a TD - Ruth Coppinger. 'Businesses should be run by committees' was something that stuck in my mind. :eek:

These workers comittees running business can be called 'soviets'....

That's worked out well before!

Valmont · 05-11-2014 1:45pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Turns out she's a TD - Ruth Coppinger. 'Businesses should be run by committees' was something that stuck in my mind. :eek:

Maybe she hasn't heard about the wonderful success of the Co-operative Group Ltd!

Permabear · 05-11-2014 1:48pm

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BoJack Horseman · 05-11-2014 1:53pm

Permabear wrote: »

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The Euro elections reminded me of their dishonesty.

Every poster should have the Euro parliament group the candidate intended to sit with.

How many Irish voters realise that 1/3 of our MEPs are part of the communist group?

Scofflaw · 05-11-2014 3:01pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The Euro elections reminded me of their dishonesty.

Every poster should have the Euro parliament group the candidate intended to sit with.

How many Irish voters realise that 1/3 of our MEPs are part of the communist group?

Proportionately the largest national representation in GUE-NGL. 36% of our MEPs. Also, 33% of NI's MEPs, which makes NI second joint equal with Cyprus.

cordially,
Scofflaw

flutered · 05-11-2014 3:05pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I think I started a thread a few years ago advocating a right wing party but I think it was Scofflaw who pointed out the following.

There are 600,000 trade union members. If you add on their dependents then you're looking at about 900,000 voters. If you add on the unemployed and their dependents then you're looking at another 600,000 voters. Pensioners - 500,000. So that's 2million voters out of a total voting population of approx. 3.1million.

Plus with a voter turnout of 60%, the vast majority will be members of the above - trade unions, unemployed and especially pensioners - all the people who are the biggest drain on this country's finances.

how can one say that a pensioner who has spent a lifetime working so having weekly deductions from their pay packet be a drain on any country, nevr mind this misfortunate isle of shysters and chancers.

flutered · 05-11-2014 3:13pm

Godge wrote: »

http://www.publicpolicy.ie/progressivity-of-irish-income-tax-system-2013/

"Ireland has the most progressive income tax system (including employee social insurance contributions) in the EU and the wider OECD. The tax paid by a single person on half average earnings is the second lowest in the OECD and is less than one-thirteenth that in Denmark while the tax paid by a single person on two and a half times average earnings is the 9th highest in the OECD. At average income levels we are the 27th highest in OECD."

The 2015 budget increased progressivity in the income tax system. We are actually at the point where the only option for improving public services is to impose more income tax on the average and lower-than average earnings worker. Politically impossible in the current climate but that is the reality.

This is one of the more stark conclusions:

"If the average single worker in Ireland on an income of about €36,000 paid tax at the rates applicable in Denmark, they would pay over €7,600 more in income tax and social insurance contributions."

do they have goverment officials and higher civil servents on wages and expenses like we have, leadership must come from the top, respect must be earned, the bogey man that is iw is not respected by the populance, which is why it has been regected, putting people who have a penchant for spending hugh volumes of public cash in charge of it are one of the reasons for the present hullaboo.

Scofflaw · 05-11-2014 4:39pm

Gloomtastic wrote:

I think I started a thread a few years ago advocating a right wing party but I think it was Scofflaw who pointed out the following.

There are 600,000 trade union members. If you add on their dependents then you're looking at about 900,000 voters. If you add on the unemployed and their dependents then you're looking at another 600,000 voters. Pensioners - 500,000. So that's 2million voters out of a total voting population of approx. 3.1million.

Plus with a voter turnout of 60%, the vast majority will be members of the above - trade unions, unemployed and especially pensioners - all the people who are the biggest drain on this country's finances.

To put that another way (as I may well have done at the time), it appears that the majority votes for the majority's benefit, and that the country is run for the benefit of the majority of voters. Bizarre in a democracy, right?

Seriously, though, it's something that's really true of Ireland - we're nearly all vested interests, at least peripherally. The government, whoever is in power, looks after the majority of voters. They get added perks, and representation through the corporate 'social partnership' style systems of stakeholding. Sure, that's cold comfort if you are, for example, a self-employed couple - those people are not quite left out, but they're not as well looked after, so they're at a disadvantage. And it's not initiative and entrepreneurialism that's rewarded, either. But then the majority of people don't want to be self-employed and entrepreneurial, thanks - and any society that sets itself up on the basis that the rewards should go to people who are is one being run for the benefit of a minority, not the majority.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Icepick · 05-11-2014 9:30pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Absolute joke of a woman from the Socialist Party on Newstalk yesterday. Turns out she's a TD - Ruth Coppinger. 'Businesses should be run by committees' was something that stuck in my mind. :eek:

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/listen_back/8/14013/04th_November_2014_-_Moncrieff_Part_1 (about 5:30 minutes in)

It's like a religion to these people. If they have any sort of intelligence, they know what they believe is not possible but they still preach it wholeheartedly.

Lived of the taxpayer her entire life preaching about solidarity.

Icepick · 05-11-2014 9:33pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I think I started a thread a few years ago advocating a right wing party but I think it was Scofflaw who pointed out the following.

There are 600,000 trade union members. If you add on their dependents then you're looking at about 900,000 voters. If you add on the unemployed and their dependents then you're looking at another 600,000 voters. Pensioners - 500,000. So that's 2million voters out of a total voting population of approx. 3.1million.

Plus with a voter turnout of 60%, the vast majority will be members of the above - trade unions, unemployed and especially pensioners - all the people who are the biggest drain on this country's finances.

Yet people paying for all this are demonized.

K-9 · 05-11-2014 10:21pm

Permabear wrote: »

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The Welfare rates were too high (I'd say they are structured wrongly) but we'd a double whammy on the taxation front. A taxation policy from 2001 based on consumers spending, and with that incorrect base collapsing taxes had to be increased to pay for the huge increase in numbers on welfare, never mind bridge the deficit. 2008 on was paying for the mistakes from 01-08.

Now, people appear to be questioning why the term "fair" is never applied outside discussions of social welfare benefits and public-sector pay. Why was it "fair" to agree the Croke Park Agreement when thousands of private sector workers were losing their jobs? Why is it "fair" to guarantee no cuts to social welfare benefits when working people are paying so many extra taxes and charges?

For some people PS pay and welfare will never be fair, hard left wingers wanting more and hard right wingers wanting less and less. It can't be ignored that the PS pay bill overall took some big hits.

Hence the demand for a "right-wing" party. Actually, I think the whole "right-wing" thing is a complete misnomer. Irish people simply want a party that will represent the interests of middle-class workers and the private sector.

Except that never seems to transfer to actual votes! FG had probably their best chance in years of getting an over all majority and the thought of it scared the electorate!

jank · 06-11-2014 1:54pm

Permabear wrote: »

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It always amazes me why these lunatics get so much air time. If the Soviet system was such a success why did they have to deploy an iron curtain in Eastern Europe and build a wall in Berlin to keep its workers trapped in its system?

Idbatterim · 06-11-2014 6:53pm

Except that never seems to transfer to actual votes! FG had probably their best chance in years of getting an over all majority and the thought of it scared the electorate!

true, what was Labours propaganda at the time "every little hurts" aimed at the lowest common denominator voter. What were FG going do on their own? reduce welfare rates etc to uk levels? cut the core OAP rate (they didnt cut it a cent)... Give me a break, it was made out as if they would rape and pillage. Pathetic! One thing is for sure, the economy and country would be in a better place, if the anti work and handout party wasnt in government...

Remember this is the party that wanted to extend austerity another several years and increase taxes instead of cuts. Which it was accepted was more damaging to the economy. Now of course the economy isnt everything, peoples are important too, but I dont believe that large swathes on welfare, were even close to struggling and the only way I would have a shred of compassion, is if they were through lay offs or wage cuts...

Permabear · 07-11-2014 12:18pm

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jank · 07-11-2014 3:00pm

I listened to a bit of it. She hadn't a clue. She wanted to nationalise all the 'big' industries and companies but not your average chip shop (McDonalds OK then?), this would she would admit scare away FDI but so be it as they live in the capitalist system and Ireland would be a socialist workers paradise instead. The workers could gather together I suppose and create an Irish Facebook or Google over a few months.... Great stuff.

This was socialism 101 and she could not even answer basic questions on what that would look like on the ground. It was a 'Sure we will see...' I don't even think she believes half the stuff the Socialist party come out with, scarier if this wasn't the case. It is easy to fool people into this type of inward looking thinking in and around some poorer Dublin estates.

Is it time for an economically right wing party?

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