Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

At least 20 killed in Spain train crash - (reports)

Options
13»

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 16,970 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    A safe place involves stopping the train


  • Options
    #63
    flyingsnail
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭flyingsnail


    A discussion on the route could me something as simple as a platform change at the next station.

    But after reading this article I am wondering if there is some possible miss translation with “Route”. Reuters has the quote” received a call from Renfe minutes before the accident to discuss the path to Ferrol”. This may indicate a discussion on train times rather that where the train was going.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/us-spain-train-idUSBRE96T10O20130730


  • Options
    #64
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Was it a regular scheduled or an extra service for the festival ?


  • Options
    #65
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    flyingsnail wrote: »
    A discussion on the route could me something as simple as a platform change at the next station.

    But after reading this article I am wondering if there is some possible miss translation with “Route”. Reuters has the quote” received a call from Renfe minutes before the accident to discuss the path to Ferrol”. This may indicate a discussion on train times rather that where the train was going.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/us-spain-train-idUSBRE96T10O20130730

    So the paper document would more likely be a timetable than a map then. Makes more sense as path but the general public wouldn't distinguish the difference.


  • Options
    #66
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    So the paper document would more likely be a timetable than a map then. Makes more sense as path but the general public wouldn't distinguish the difference.
    Which is why the rush of journalists to "beat the tweets" rather than verify doesn't really give the public a proper sense of what occurred.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    Louche Lad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Louche Lad


    Interesting account saying it was a RENFE supervisor who was on the train who rang the driver: http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/31/inenglish/1375288407_411161.html

    According to that, the supervisor wanted "make it easier for a family" to get off. So was this supervisor asking the driver to stop at a particular point on a platform? Doesn't sound like an emergency.

    Also, what's a "supervisor" in this context? The guard? The driver's boss?


  • Options
    #68
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #69
    Louche Lad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Louche Lad


    Louche Lad wrote: »
    Interesting account saying it was a RENFE supervisor who was on the train who rang the driver: http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/31/inenglish/1375288407_411161.html

    According to that, the supervisor wanted "make it easier for a family" to get off. So was this supervisor asking the driver to stop at a particular point on a platform? Doesn't sound like an emergency.

    Also, what's a "supervisor" in this context? The guard? The driver's boss?

    Just found this http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_23766292/spanish-police-seek-caller-train-crash-driver saying it was the ticket inspector.


  • Options
    #70
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    There would be quite a full crew on those trains.
    They have first class and a dining car and a train host / manager.

    They're very much full service long distance trains.

    Much more crew than on an intercity here which would be more like RENFE medium distance service.

    Remember too that the platforms aren't always high in Spain and if it was a family with kids or a disabled passenger or an old person they would have to arrange a kind of platform lift or ramps

    Perhaps they were trying to arrange to arrive at a particular location on a long platform or use an alternative one or something...


  • Options
    #71
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 16,970 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    It really makes me angry that this accident was so preventable. Railways across the world need to learn to look at other accidents and risk assess their own infrastructure / operations accordingly


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I think they do though.

    Accidents don't happen very often on European railways to be fair. You're probably more likely to have your house fall on you than be killed in a train or commercial aircraft crash.


  • Options
    #73
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I think they do though.

    Accidents don't happen very often on European railways to be fair. You're probably more likely to have your house fall on you than be killed in a train or commercial aircraft crash.


  • Options
    #74
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    There would be quite a full crew on those trains.
    They have first class and a dining car and a train host / manager.

    They're very much full service long distance trains.

    Much more crew than on an intercity here which would be more like RENFE medium distance service.

    Remember too that the platforms aren't always high in Spain and if it was a family with kids or a disabled passenger or an old person they would have to arrange a kind of platform lift or ramps

    Perhaps they were trying to arrange to arrive at a particular location on a long platform or use an alternative one or something...

    That's the whole point of signalling to direct the train into the correct platform by setting the correct points and direct the train. Otherwise not much point in signalling.

    IE manage it here to direct trains to correct platforms by displaying the platform number at Heuston area of the 5 clear lights at other stations.

    There would be no need for a driver to look at papers so this was not the reason.


  • Options
    #75
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I can't really think of any reason why the driver would be consulting papers.

    What I'm wondering is whether there was an ad hoc arrangement between the person who called the driver and the station which may have local control over points to select a platform.

    Like someone could have phoned a signal cabin to request a particular platform to ensure passengers could get out easily.

    Remember this is a fairly rural line with very infrequent service. It's not a busy intercity / ave route.


  • Options
    #76
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 16,970 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Translated article in El Pais with the head of RENFE

    http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/31/inenglish/1375296821_895394.html?rel=rosEP

    There are bits of that interview where he is trying hard to downgrade this whole line to be not seen as high speed


  • Options
    #77
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    This is the bit that I don't like :
    Q. Why is there no sign indicating that the speed limit on this section of track is 80 km/h?

    A. Railway signaling is different from road signaling, and it is designed by technicians, the people who know the tracks best. It is understood that existing signals, the track map and the speed chart are enough for this section of track.

    Is he seriously saying there are no speed signs at all!?!


  • Options
    #78
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    with a train driver, it's all down to route knowledge, they don't need signs like a road driver would. Nothing sinister in this.


  • Options
    #79
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    But, I see signage on Irish lines.

    It seems a bit daft when you consider the price of a speed sign vs the risk (albeit slight) of an accident like this.


  • Options
    #80
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 16,970 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    corktina wrote: »
    with a train driver, it's all down to route knowledge, they don't need signs like a road driver would. Nothing sinister in this.

    Actually it is only really the UK and Ireland who do route signalling, most of Europe does speed signalling

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_signalling#Route_signalling_and_speed_signalling

    My comments
    'Q. Why is there no sign indicating that the speed limit on this section of track is 80 km/h?

    A. Railway signaling is different from road signaling, and it is designed by technicians, the people who know the tracks best. It is understood that existing signals, the track map and the speed chart are enough for this section of track.

    I do not agree with him on that and I would expect the accident committee to ask for the risk assessment that states that the existing protection measures are sufficient
    'Q. Is that curve considered an especially dangerous spot?

    A. The railway route is designed by engineers. They design the route's curve radius and establish speeds depending on the radius. On this bend, the speed was the appropriate one for its radius, and the radius is an admissible one in railroad circulation.'

    Engineers will design to the constraints imposed on them ie topography or cost or time


  • Options
    #81
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    drivers have to sign that they know route...any signage is just a reminder...they are supposed to know where limits and signals, junctions etc are.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 16,970 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    In speed signalling, the system tells the speed (slow down, speed up or an exact speed) the driver should take as he does not necessarily know the route. You are applying the level of route knowledge required for route signalling to a speed signalling situation.

    From the wiki link
    Under speed signalling, the driver is not informed which route the train will take, but the signal aspect informs him at what speed he may proceed. Speed signalling requires a far greater range of signal aspects than route signalling, but less dependence is placed on drivers' route knowledge.


  • Options
    #83
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    corktina wrote: »
    drivers have to sign that they know route...any signage is just a reminder...they are supposed to know where limits and signals, junctions etc are.

    That just seems utterly ridiculous.

    Why can't you have both?!


  • Options
    #84
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    not needed if the driver is signing to say he knows where the speed limits are. I don't know for sure, but the signs you are seeing may be temporary speed limits where there is work going on .


  • Options
    #85
    flyingsnail
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭flyingsnail


    corktina wrote: »
    not needed if the driver is signing to say he knows where the speed limits are. I don't know for sure, but the signs you are seeing may be temporary speed limits where there is work going on .

    Both permanent and temporary speed limits are sign posted here


  • Options
    #86
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #87
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    flyingsnail wrote: »
    Both permanent and temporary speed limits are sign posted here

    I was thinking I noticed speed signs along any Irish railway I have been on.


  • Options
    #88
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I was thinking I noticed speed signs along any Irish railway I have been on.

    Yeah yellow signs with black numbers. TSR's are distinguished to the driver a mile or two before the limit with a triangle and usually half the actual line speed and then at restriction area it says the speed and a C above it while a T when its over.

    Believe it or not high speed routes in Spain have line speed signs. I saw them on the Routes I have being on.


  • Options
    #89
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/spain-state-rail-officials-face-investigation-after-crash-29514157.html

    Safety officials now being investigated.


  • Options
    #90
    Louche Lad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Louche Lad


    From yesterday's English version of El Pais, a prominent Partido Popular politician is asking whether shortcuts were taken in finishing the line to speed up the "ribbon-cutting":

    http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/08/22/inenglish/1377198453_943657.html


  • Advertisement
Advertisement