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my foot is hanging off - do you think mushroom paste will fix it

  • 28-04-2012 11:16pm
    #1
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭


    :D

    Gotcha mods.

    But seriously - what is it with all these threads in last few weeks ? Look at the Health Sciences page - the whole thing is personal medical enquiries.
    Is the recession stopping people going to their doctors ?


«1

Comments

  • #2
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    I was thinking about this earlier. I've closed so many threads in the last week particularly. some of the closures have been followed by PMs saying "it wasn't really medical advice/you're a Nazi/why did you infract me/I didn't know/other ridiculous excuse" (the best I've had in my time as a mod here has been that I apparently dont care about posters getting dodgy advice or the legal ramifications for the site-owners, but rather I just am trying to keep all the country's GP's in their jobs by making sure people attend them! that little gem was thrown at me by one particular bitter individual who is now, unsurprisingly, site-banned. )

    I can't see how we can make it any clearer than what it is already. it's in the charter, has it's own sticky AND is in CAPITAL letters on the front page. short of getting some sort of alarm bells or flashing lights, I don't know what we can do.


    it's actually scary that so many people think this is acceptable and safe.


  • #3
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    It's not a bit surprising to be honest. People will accept advice from the village idiot as Gospel before they'd get a proper opinion.


  • #4
    Jessibelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭Jessibelle


    I'd suspect it's a combination of people not having the cash anymore, seeing a forum called 'health' and knowing that health professionals from all walks post here, and possibly not seeing what they're asking as specifically medical advice, kind of like someone ringing the dr's surgery and asking for advice over the phone. I don't understand it myself, I'd run a mile from an internet diagnosis, but i can see the attitude that could lead to it alright.


  • #5
    MrCreosote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    Can the threads be fully deleted? The first page is looking awfully cluttered with them.


  • #6
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    sam34 wrote: »
    I was thinking about this earlier. I've closed so many threads in the last week particularly. some of the closures have been followed by PMs saying "it wasn't really medical advice/you're a Nazi/why did you infract me/I didn't know/other ridiculous excuse" (the best I've had in my time as a mod here has been that I apparently dont care about posters getting dodgy advice or the legal ramifications for the site-owners, but rather I just am trying to keep all the country's GP's in their jobs by making sure people attend them! that little gem was thrown at me by one particular bitter individual who is now, unsurprisingly, site-banned. )
    Ah but sure the poor Gp's would have nothin to do without you helpin them out....:pac:
    I can't see how we can make it any clearer than what it is already. it's in the charter, has it's own sticky AND is in CAPITAL letters on the front page. short of getting some sort of alarm bells or flashing lights, I don't know what we can do.

    Dare I say it - a really annoying pop-up when someone clicks on the forum ?? You no the type - with music, flashing red and yellow bars for no reason, people doing the can-can.
    it's actually scary that so many people think this is acceptable and safe.

    Yeah it is kind of shocking sometimes.

    Jessibelle wrote:
    I'd suspect it's a combination of people not having the cash anymore, seeing a forum called 'health' and knowing that health professionals from all walks post here, and possibly not seeing what they're asking as specifically medical advice, kind of like someone ringing the dr's surgery and asking for advice over the phone. I don't understand it myself, I'd run a mile from an internet diagnosis, but i can see the attitude that could lead to it alright.

    I don't know - I've noticed it more and more on other forums also - the Health & Fitness people seem to be getting it lately and even.....shudder.....After Hours has has its fair share lately. Tis an epidemic I tells ya


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  • #7
    DesperateDan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭DesperateDan


    If I have a problem though I must say the first thing I would do is google it :o


  • #8
    Vorsprung
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭Vorsprung


    Google has been shown to get it right a lot of the time too!

    http://www.bmj.com/content/333/7579/1143.abstract


  • #9
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    randomers on boards =/= googling it


  • #10
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭maninasia


    It's called people looking for different ideas and opinions. It's called self education.
    Since there are no debates on health policy or on anything substantial here it would look very blank indeed without them.
    Try taking your medical caps off and looking at it from a different perspective.

    And yes many people cannot afford to go to a doctor, so what should they do?


  • #11
    Biologic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭Biologic


    maninasia wrote: »
    It's called people looking for different ideas and opinions. It's called self education.
    Self education in medicine is dangerous (in most situations), as are unqualified opinions. But there's very little point in saying this to you. If I posted that the earth is round, you'd rant on about how it's actually shaped like a pretzel.
    maninasia wrote: »
    And yes many people cannot afford to go to a doctor, so what should they do?
    According to you, they should all go live in Taiwan. Apparently that place has the worlds best health service where doctors can deal with every issue in under 3 minutes. And the best part is, it doesn't cost anyone any money!


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  • #12
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    I have to say that I was on this forum a few days ago for the first time in a while and I was amazed at the number of locked threads started by folks seeking medical advice.
    It is well flagged and I really can't see what else can be done to discourage it , a pop-up is an idea but even if technically feasible I could see objections about it being contrary to the boards.ie ' ethos '.


  • #13
    Tree
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tree


    Can I recommend the OP to look for a book called Vegetable Glue by Susan Chandler. (it's very very good, and addresses the mushroom paste to repair feet issue).

    On the why ask for advice on a message forum, I honeslty have no idea why, unless you were looking for information to clear up some words you didnt understand. Looking for "my foot is at a wonky angle is it broken" advice is perplexing. Yes a doctor is expensive, but you'll end up going there anyway for definitive opinion/script/referral, so why not befriend your local doc.

    I have googled for medical information in my time, but more for additional clarity on a genuine diagnosis (or the mad side effects/contraindications on a bottle of cough mixture).

    But anyway, Vegetable Glue, most excellent, check out your local bookshop.


  • #14
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Biologic wrote: »
    Self education in medicine is dangerous (in most situations), as are unqualified opinions. But there's very little point in saying this to you. If I posted that the earth is round, you'd rant on about how it's actually shaped like a pretzel.
    People have the capacity to learn and inform themselves. It is not one or the other as you falsely seem to be presenting the case. There is obviously a huge need and wish there in the community for people to learn more about their own bodies and their own health.
    According to you, they should all go live in Taiwan. Apparently that place has the worlds best health service where doctors can deal with every issue in under 3 minutes. And the best part is, it doesn't cost anyone any money

    No, this is according to you. You are making yourself look very small now with these belittling comments of a place and system you know next to nothing about.

    You also completely avoided the topic at hand, nice one. As I stated, what is left in this forum if you remove all these requests, not a whole lot but a pretty blank canvas. So you are not discussing medical issues and you are not discussing medical policies or systems, what are you discussing here, what's for lunch :)?


  • #15
    calfmuscle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭calfmuscle


    maninasia wrote: »
    And yes many people cannot afford to go to a doctor, so what should they do?

    Apply for a medical card. . . . . . . . .


  • #16
    locum-motion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    One might nearly understand posters who ask for advice for something quite trivial. Nearly. Almost. Not quite. But nearly.

    What I really can't understand are the ones who ask about serious problems.

    I mean, a couple of weeks ago, somebody asked "Do I have HIV?", FFS!


  • #17
    calfmuscle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭calfmuscle


    locum-motion wrote: »
    One might nearly understand posters who ask for advice for something quite trivial. Nearly. Almost. Not quite. But nearly.

    What I really can't understand are the ones who ask about serious problems.

    I mean, a couple of weeks ago, somebody asked "Do I have HIV?", FFS!

    Ah to be fair people with no medical knowledge who are worried and stressed will look for comfort from any source.


  • #18
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    This should be a private forum probably.


  • #19
    calfmuscle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭calfmuscle


    mike65 wrote: »
    This should be a private forum probably.

    What would be the inclusion criteria?


  • #20
    Thoie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    I think it's indicative of people thinking of Boards (and the internet in general) as an addition to/replacement for family/friends conversations.

    For example if you say to your friends "I always get hiccoughs after eating bread/drinking fizzy drinks - is that normal?", your family/friends will most likely say "Yes, you halfwit" or "No, that's never happened to anyone else, you should go to the doctor."

    People worry about medical issues, but feel they may be being ridiculous, or that maybe it's perfectly normal to feel x after doing y. Some people are in a position that taking time off work, and spending money to see a GP only to be told "It's a midge bite, get over it" is difficult.

    It's natural for people to get a few opinions from friends about some of these kinds of things. I think the mistake they're making is considering Boards as yet another "friend" that you can ask. They're used to the idea that you can ask people for opinions on "Should I buy this car?", "Are many people going to this concert?" and "Which phone is better?". IRL they'd ask the same friends "What do you think of this car?" and "Does this itchy spot look funny to you?". On Boards because there are specific Motors and Health areas, they try to put their questions into the "appropriate" area.


  • #21
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    calfmuscle wrote: »
    What would be the inclusion criteria?

    be a health professional or studying for same.


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  • #22
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    mike65 wrote: »
    be a health professional or studying for same.

    How do you prove that on a quasi-anonymous internet forum ?


  • #23
    calfmuscle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭calfmuscle


    mike65 wrote: »
    be a health professional or studying for same.

    Oh that could start an argument, would you define health professionals only as those under the medical/health and social care councils.

    I know physical therapist's, osteopath's etc class themselves as health professionals.


  • #24
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    That's true I guess.


  • #25
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Have an entrance exam ????:pac:


  • #26
    calfmuscle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭calfmuscle


    opinion guy wrote: »
    Have an entrance exam ????:pac:

    Oh I like this or an interview process with the mods via skype!
    The first question can be "what is your opinion on the use of homoeopathy in health care" :pac:


  • #27
    Biologic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭Biologic


    maninasia wrote: »
    People have the capacity to learn and inform themselves. It is not one or the other as you falsely seem to be presenting the case. There is obviously a huge need and wish there in the community for people to learn more about their own bodies and their own health.



    No, this is according to you. You are making yourself look very small now with these belittling comments of a place and system you know next to nothing about.

    You also completely avoided the topic at hand, nice one. As I stated, what is left in this forum if you remove all these requests, not a whole lot but a pretty blank canvas. So you are not discussing medical issues and you are not discussing medical policies or systems, what are you discussing here, what's for lunch :)?

    I haven't avoided the topic, you've just created one that never existed. We were never talking about people posting harmless questions relating to general health. This is a topic about people looking to randomers on the internet for a diagnosis/treatment options/etc. There's a distinct line between someone asking "what are the risk factors for development of heart disease?" and "I've had a fever for 3 weeks, will paracetamol and rest cure it?". It would be easy to tell the second guy he has the flu, but you don't know if it's actually something more sinister, like a lymphoma. And by answering his question you've stopped him seeking qualified treatment. It's worrying that you can't see the difference.
    As regards "belittling comments on things you know nothing about", that's what you've been doing towards the healthcare community on this board for the past 18 months. I'm merely stooping to your level. Dirty me.
    maninasia wrote: »
    what is left in this forum if you remove all these requests, not a whole lot but a pretty blank canvas. So you are not discussing medical issues and you are not discussing medical policies or systems, what are you discussing here, what's for lunch :)?
    It doesn't matter what is left, they are invalid requests. You think we should allow threads which could give out damaging medical advice just for the sake of livening up an internet forum?


  • #28
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭maninasia


    I like the way you frame it, me against the medical community. It's a not so subtle device. I'm sure the medical community has more diverse views than your own :). You keep wanting to attack the man not the message.

    Your problem is much like trying to use a rubber stopper in the middle of a dam to hold back the flooding waters. You just don't get it, people are going to seek out advice and opinions and experience from others whether you like it or not.

    It's interesting that the experiences of other people with similar conditions don't seem to come into it here. Dealing with a health problem is more complicated than getting a diagnosis. It is understanding that others have gone though similar issues, understanding how to navigate the health system, advice on where to go or who to ask, expenses and fees and insurance, hope and optimism, it's not just wanting to talk to professionals , they can indeed do that by waking into a doctors office if they can afford it or can line up an appointment in the near future. Some can't though. That really should be recognized here.

    When people post here they are trying to learn more about their condition and I would bet that they would get pushed to deal with a medical issue more seriously or in a more optimum way than if they just shrug it off or work of their own limited knowledge.
    There will be always be the caveat that you should go and get checked out by professionals, so again and that can be made explicitly clear.


  • #29
    roro1neil0
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭roro1neil0


    I really don't know what to make of this thread. Seems to be only two trains of thought, "we are health professionals, everyone else is stupid and shouldn't be able to talk about individual health problems". Just the stench of elitism and smugness is nauseating. Especially as no one on this thread is an actual doctor except for one and that person is the furthest you can be from emergency medicine you can get without retiring.

    The other is just trying to overcome that prevailing culture.

    How come there is a complete lack of common sense to it?
    Poster 1 wrote:
    I have this itchy foot, for about 3 weeks, is there anything i can do about it?

    If you asked this down your local gym someone would say you probably have Athlete's foot and should go to the chemist and get some cream or powder.
    If you asked your mother the same thing you'd get the same answer. In both instances, there is no presumption of unlicensed medical advice. Why is it different on this forum?

    Can someone provide some links to evidence that shows that people with serious illnesses had their recoveries seriously repressed by seeking medical advice on the internet?

    Btw there is just as many 'seeking medical advice' on the health and fitness forum and those threads rarely get locked.

    Just seems to be an overriding sense of if you ask a question on this forum, it automatically means you are not getting professional advise and will definitely die prematurely. Just nonsense and scaremongering.


  • #30
    Biologic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭Biologic


    maninasia wrote: »
    You keep wanting to attack the man not the message.
    My last post made a very clear argument that giving out medical advice online is wrong and shouldn't be allowed just to boost forum numbers. That's me attacking the message.
    maninasia wrote: »
    You just don't get it, people are going to seek out advice and opinions and experience from others whether you like it or not.
    Great, the classic "if I don't do it, someone else will" approach. People are going to get drugs from others whether I like it or not too. That doesn't mean you'll see me involved any time soon.

    maninasia wrote: »
    It's interesting that the experiences of other people with similar conditions don't seem to come into it here. Dealing with a health problem is more complicated than getting a diagnosis. It is understanding that others have gone though similar issues, understanding how to navigate the health system, advice on where to go or who to ask, expenses and fees and insurance, hope and optimism, it's not just wanting to talk to professionals , they can indeed do that by waking into a doctors office if they can afford it or can line up an appointment in the near future. Some can't though. That really should be recognized here.
    I agree with you here completely, but it's not really personal medical advice. People ask questions about expenses/insurance here occasionally, and plenty of disease sufferers share experiences on the long term illness forum. It's not that I think posters are incapable of educating themselves on their own illness (in fact, many patients I've met know more about their diseases than I ever will), it's just that I don't think an internet forum is an appropriate place for initially addressing a problem.


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  • #31
    calfmuscle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭calfmuscle


    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    I really don't know what to make of this thread. Seems to be only two trains of thought, "we are health professionals, everyone else is stupid and shouldn't be able to talk about individual health problems".
    That's ridiculous, just look at all the advice and support the threads in long term illness provide. However the advice that people usually look for in here is when the condition is acute an there is no diagnosis as of yet.
    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    Can someone provide some links to evidence that shows that people with serious illnesses had their recoveries seriously repressed by seeking medical advice on the internet?

    Steve jobs is probably the most famous example.
    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    How come there is a complete lack of common sense to it?

    If you asked this down your local gym someone would say you probably have Athlete's foot and should go to the chemist and get some cream or powder.
    If you asked your mother the same thing you'd get the same answer. In both instances, there is no presumption of unlicensed medical advice. Why is it different on this forum?

    Btw there is just as many 'seeking medical advice' on the health and fitness forum and those threads rarely get locked

    This is a health science's forum, therefore the lay person may pay more head to the advice given than from some guy down the gym. As has been pointed out that is dangerous as even though it is a health sciences forum there is no way of confirming the posters credentials.

    Further to that, there is nothing we can do about people accepting advice from non medically trained people. However it should not be encouraged as anyone here that works in healthcare, especially anyone that carries out patients assessments (physio's, doctors, psychologists) will know that the number of patients who come in convinced they have XYZ because biddy down the road had something similar is massive! Patient education is a huge part of treatment/management.
    If a poster comes on here complaining of low back pain and pins and needles around the groin and I give them a strengthening program with out assessing if they have signs of caudia equina impingement the person is at risk of being left incontinent for life. This is just one example of thousands of reasons its a bad idea!


  • #32
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    I really don't know what to make of this thread. Seems to be only two trains of thought, "we are health professionals, everyone else is stupid and shouldn't be able to talk about individual health problems". Just the stench of elitism and smugness is nauseating. Especially as no one on this thread is an actual doctor except for one and that person is the furthest you can be from emergency medicine you can get without retiring.

    Is it not blazingly OBVIOUS to you that many of the problems people are asking about are potentially serious and require proper evaluation including physical examination, blood tests xrays etc ? In most cases on here for medical professionals to reply would be dangerous and probably negligent, whilst for boards to allow medical or non-medical randomers pitch diagnoses and treatment suggestions is both dangerous and potentially leaving boards open to legal claims.

    Would you think its ok for your GP to insist patients don't come to his office and he will advise them over the internet ? No I suspect not - and he actually should know a thing or two. Why then do you think its ok for internet randomers of uncertain knowledge to do so ?


  • #33
    roro1neil0
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭roro1neil0


    calfmuscle wrote: »
    That's ridiculous, just look at all the advice and support the threads in long term illness provide. However the advice that people usually look for in here is when the condition is acute an there is no diagnosis as of yet.
    What point are you making? LTI works, it's nothing to do with 'advice and support' from health care practioneers.
    Steve jobs is probably the most famous example.

    I said show me evidence not an anecdote, you do know the difference? Steve jobs went with alternative medicine strategies over conventional, it's questionable what difference internet advice made to his decisions. More important, patient autonomy allows for this.
    This is a health science's forum, therefore the lay person may pay more head to the advice given than from some guy down the gym. As has been pointed out that is dangerous as even though it is a health sciences forum there is no way of confirming the posters credentials.

    Just remove that stipulation. The only 'professionals' that need to be careful are doctors and the site administrators, afaik, users of this site will have no recourse against psychologists who offered advice.
    Further to that, there is nothing we can do about people accepting advice from non medically trained people. However it should not be encouraged as anyone here that works in healthcare, especially anyone that carries out patients assessments (physio's, doctors, psychologists) will know that the number of patients who come in convinced they have XYZ because biddy down the road had something similar is massive! Patient education is a huge part of treatment/management.

    What you are saying is that patients need to be educated but they can't seek education on the web? Why not? I don't really care if a psychologists job is made more difficult because their 'patient' googled their symptoms.
    If a poster comes on here complaining of low back pain and pins and needles around the groin and I give them a strengthening program with out assessing if they have signs of caudia equina impingement the person is at risk of being left incontinent for life. This is just one example of thousands of reasons its a bad idea!

    I don't think this point is actually really that relevant. firstly, you're assuming people will be giving medical advice in the absence of performing an examination. Obviously anyone with any medical knowledge wouldn't do that. but let's say for example, someone does come on this forum with sudden, acute lower back pain, paresthesia, pain / loss of sensation in l5/s1 and flaccid paralysis in their legs, I would agree, a strength programme wouldn't be practical advice, nor would it be advice someone with CES would accept. What's more likely is someone would say

    "sounds serious, go straight to doctor".

    What is more relevant and realistic example is someone comes on this forum with chronic back pain that didn't respond to GP visit (painkillers and anti-inflammatory) physio (what ever physios do for back pain) or chiropractic (what ever that is). I don't see why that user can't post that story here and take, with caveat emptor in place, any advice with a pinch of salt and have a discussion.


  • #34
    roro1neil0
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭roro1neil0


    opinion guy wrote: »
    Is it not blazingly OBVIOUS to you that many of the problems people are asking about are potentially serious and require proper evaluation including physical examination, blood tests xrays etc ?
    I haven't looked at each case forensically but who said boards.ie discussion would be a substitute for people taking a convention medicine route? Nobody did. Surely wouldn't it be more likely that if they presented a case that required 'serious and proper evaluation' the resultant cacophony of "sounds serious, go to the doctor" would encourage them to do so. Rather than locking the thread, warning the user and giving a "visit your gp" one liner?
    In most cases on here for medical professionals to reply would be dangerous and probably negligent,

    who said medical professionals would or should? Surely if they had any sense they wouldn't risk negligence by offering medical advice to a patient they hadn't examined. Do you think if boards.ie changed it's policy, consultants from around the country would be expanding their practices onto this forum?
    Would you think its ok for your GP to insist patients don't come to his office and he will advise them over the internet ? No I suspect not - and he actually should know a thing or two. Why then do you think its ok for internet randomers of uncertain knowledge to do so ?

    stop making infantile, straw man arguments.


  • #35
    calfmuscle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭calfmuscle


    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    What point are you making? LTI works, it's nothing to do with 'advice and support' from health care practioneers.
    Regardless of weather the advice is from health professionals or not the forum is aloud and it works well. Also if you read through the threads there are lots of posters who are not afflicted but have an interest in the area being discussed.

    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    I said show me evidence not an anecdote, you do know the difference? Steve jobs went with alternative medicine strategies over conventional, it's questionable what difference internet advice made to his decisions. More important, patient autonomy allows for this.

    You are complaining about elitism and smugness yet you come out with that sentence :rolleyes:. Not giving out medical advice is in the terms and conditions of posting on this sight if you wish to challenge that, the responsibility is on you to support your case with evidence.

    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    Just remove that stipulation. The only 'professionals' that need to be careful are doctors and the site administrators, afaik, users of this site will have no recourse against psychologists who offered advice.

    I'm not sure weather health professional could be legally penalised for giving advice or not, but ethically its just below standard.
    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    What you are saying is that patients need to be educated but they can't seek education on the web? Why not? I don't really care if a psychologists job is made more difficult because their 'patient' googled their symptoms.

    There are plenty of good resources on the web where people can gain information on various conditions such as ncbi etc. But taking an online diagnosis from a stranger on the internet is dangerous. I cant really believe your arguing this!

    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    I don't think this point is actually really that relevant. firstly, you're assuming people will be giving medical advice in the absence of performing an examination. Obviously anyone with any medical knowledge wouldn't do that. but let's say for example, someone does come on this forum with sudden, acute lower back pain, paresthesia, pain / loss of sensation in l5/s1 and flaccid paralysis in their legs, I would agree, a strength programme wouldn't be practical advice, nor would it be advice someone with CES would accept. What's more likely is someone would say

    "sounds serious, go straight to doctor".

    What is more relevant and realistic example is someone comes on this forum with chronic back pain that didn't respond to GP visit (painkillers and anti-inflammatory) physio (what ever physios do for back pain) or chiropractic (what ever that is). I don't see why that user can't post that story here and take, with caveat emptor in place, any advice with a pinch of salt and have a discussion.

    And you are assuming they wont! Plus do you know how many people like to think they have knowledge and just give out advice when they are not qualified!! Anybody can sign up and pretend to be a doctor/ot/clinical nurse specialist and give out advice. Its ridiculous!

    As for a chronic pain patient who has had little success with various treatment they can and do post regularly in the long term illness threads. :confused:


  • #36
    roro1neil0
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭roro1neil0


    calfmuscle wrote: »
    Regardless of weather the advice is from health professionals or not the forum is aloud and it works well. Also if you read through the threads there are lots of posters who are not afflicted but have an interest in the area being discussed.

    So you can discuss medical conditions in the LTI but not here? What's the difference? Ppl with LTI will often develop new or different illnesses/progressions that need to be seen by experts yet they are allowed to discuss this openly in that forum? Why can the equivalent not be discussed here?
    You are complaining about elitism and smugness yet you come out with that sentence :rolleyes:. Not giving out medical advice is in the terms and conditions of posting on this sight if you wish to challenge that, the responsibility is on you to support your case with evidence.

    Ah here now. I can't really overlook every single thing (whether/weather, site/sight, allowed/aloud).
    I'm not sure weather health professional could be legally penalised for giving advice or not, but ethically its just below standard.

    A dr would risk losing their licence
    There are plenty of good resources on the web where people can gain information on various conditions such as ncbi etc. But taking an online diagnosis from a stranger on the internet is dangerous. I cant really believe your arguing this!

    who said anything about giving out diagnoses. i am talking about discussion, not people pretending to be doctors.
    And you are assuming they wont! Plus do you know how many people like to think they have knowledge and just give out advice when they are not qualified!! Anybody can sign up and pretend to be a doctor/ot/clinical nurse specialist and give out advice. Its ridiculous!

    more scaremongering
    As for a chronic pain patient who has had little success with various treatment they can and do post regularly in the long term illness threads. :confused:

    fair enough so


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  • #37
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Is it Firday yet?


  • #38
    locum-motion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Just to clarify, for a couple of posters who don't seem to realise this:

    Discussion of disease states or health issues is allowed here (and also on the LTI forum, but that's a different story; discussion about what's allowed there belongs there, not here). What is not permitted is seeking or giving advice on a person's own medical condition.

    So, to continue the tongue-in-cheek analogy that Opinion Guy used in the OP:

    "My foot is hanging off. If you too have suffered from hanging-off feet, will you please share your experiences with me?" is allowed.

    "My foot is hanging off - do you think mushroom paste will fix it?" is not allowed.


  • #39
    roro1neil0
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭roro1neil0


    locum-motion wrote: »

    So, to continue the tongue-in-cheek analogy that Opinion Guy used in the OP:

    "My foot is hanging off. If you too have suffered from hanging-off feet, will you please share your experiences with me?" is allowed.

    "My foot is hanging off - do you think mushroom paste will fix it?" is not allowed.

    seems a bit kinda stupid. you are basically implying for people to pretend they're not asking for personal advice by phrasing their questions. Reminds me of recreational drug users saying "my friend did E last night ..." when they mean me or people talking about torrents using reference to their cousin. all seems a bit silly and childish to me and wouldn't really effect my opinion on this matter from an ethical point of view.


  • #40
    calfmuscle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭calfmuscle


    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    So you can discuss medical conditions in the LTI but not here? What's the difference? Ppl with LTI will often develop new or different illnesses/progressions that need to be seen by experts yet they are allowed to discuss this openly in that forum? Why can the equivalent not be discussed here?



    Ah here now. I can't really overlook every single thing (whether/weather, site/sight, allowed/aloud).



    A dr would risk losing their licence



    who said anything about giving out diagnoses. i am talking about discussion, not people pretending to be doctors.



    more scaremongering


    fair enough so

    I think what you are asking for is already available in long term illness, the difference that you seem to miss though is that in long term illness the posters have been assessed and have a diagnosis. They are under the care of health professional already.
    The posts that are closed in here are normally people who have not yet been to a care provider and are looking to use the forum as a substitute. Hence the danger associated with giving medical advice online.

    As for a doctor loosing their licence so can each of the health professions. Physiotherapists are regularly struck off.


    As for my spelling, use some clinical reasoning - well informed, highly educated, but makes elementary spelling mistakes and uses poor grammar = dyslexia ;)


  • #41
    roro1neil0
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭roro1neil0


    calfmuscle wrote: »
    I think what you are asking for is already available in long term illness, the difference that you seem to miss though is that in long term illness the posters have been assessed and have a diagnosis. They are under the care of health professional already.
    The posts that are closed in here are normally people who have not yet been to a care provider and are looking to use the forum as a substitute. Hence the danger associated with giving medical advice online.

    Ok.
    As for a doctor loosing their licence so can each of the health professions. Physiotherapists are regularly struck off.

    Why? Are physios particularly unprofessional?
    As for my spelling, use some clinical reasoning - well informed, highly educated, but makes elementary spelling mistakes and uses poor grammar = dyslexia ;)

    well lucky enough you've got a job using your hands


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  • #42
    calfmuscle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭calfmuscle


    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    Ok.



    Why? Are physios particularly unprofessional?

    You would have to ask them that


    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    well lucky enough you've got a job using your hands
    True that, I dont need to spell much pulling pint! :pac:


  • #43
    locum-motion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    ... you are basically implying for people to pretend they're not asking for personal advice by phrasing their questions...

    Absolutely not. There's a world of difference between the two questions I asked, and I am in no way suggesting that people should try to disguise their requests for advice, although I am aware that some might try it. As for sorting out which ones are genuine questions and which ones are disguised advice requests... well, that's why we have Mods!


  • #44
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    just as an FYI re the LTI forum, posters there who ask for advice about new symptoms are also advised to see their gp- eg recently someone with MS posted about new symptoms and wondered if it was "just" optic neuritis - they were promptly told to see their GP. the lti forum is for discussing experiences of an established diagnosis and treatment thereof, not for making a diagnosis or advising on a treatment plan. it's quite tightly modded to ensure the line isn't crossed.


  • #45
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    roro1neil0 wrote: »
    Especially as no one on this thread is an actual doctor except for one and that person is the furthest you can be from emergency medicine you can get without retiring.

    incorrect.

    at least two doctors have posted on this thread, and I know a third has read it as they have thanked posts. and one of those doctors is in fact a specialist in emergency medicine.

    secondly, I'm not sure if the second part of your sentence refers to me, a psychiatrist, I'm guessing that it does... if you think psychiatrists do not encounter emergencies, both psychiatric and medical, you are seriously mistaken, but that's another discussion.


  • #46
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    ^edit to above actually at least 3 doctors have posted here.


  • #47
    locum-motion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Regarding the issue of the front page of this forum being clogged up with closed threads:

    Rather than closing the threads, would it be an idea to have a great big superthread, to which threads asking for advice could be moved. The mods could just move all the dodgy threads into it and re-lock it each time. Call it 'The Advice Seekers' Graveyard', or something.


  • #48
    Kurtosis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,881 ✭✭✭Kurtosis


    locum-motion wrote: »
    Regarding the issue of the front page of this forum being clogged up with closed threads:

    Rather than closing the threads, would it be an idea to have a great big superthread, to which threads asking for advice could be moved. The mods could just move all the dodgy threads into it and re-lock it each time. Call it 'The Advice Seekers' Graveyard', or something.

    The only problem with this L-M is that when a thread is moved into another forum/thread, the title of the thread still remains where it was (albwit as a dead link) preceded by a "Moved" tag, so this would still clog up the front page. The only solution to the forum being crowded by medical advice threads would seem to be deleting them, which comes with its own issues.


  • #49
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    the issue with deleting them is that we'd have to leave them up a day or so to prevent the op thinking it just hadn't appeared and posting it again.

    I used to think that having locked threads with the standard reply still on the front page would act as another sign to posters that we don't give medical advice here, but as I look at the current front page I see how misguided I was!


  • #50
    Kurtosis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,881 ✭✭✭Kurtosis


    sam34 wrote: »
    the issue with deleting them is that we'd have to leave them up a day or so to prevent the op thinking it just hadn't appeared and posting it again.

    I used to think that having locked threads with the standard reply still on the front page would act as another sign to posters that we don't give medical advice here, but as I look at the current front page I see how misguided I was!

    I was going to make the same point Sam about the locked threads still being visible with on thread warnings acting as a deterrent to further medical advice threads but based on the evidence of the current make up of the first page I thought better of ot!


  • #51
    locum-motion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    penguin88 wrote: »
    The only problem with this L-M is that when a thread is moved into another forum/thread, the title of the thread still remains where it was (albwit as a dead link) preceded by a "Moved" tag, so this would still clog up the front page. The only solution to the forum being crowded by medical advice threads would seem to be deleting them, which comes with its own issues.

    True, didn't think of that.
    Still, the dead link would say "Moved to the Advice Seekers' Graveyard", wouldn't it? Might act as a deterrent a bit, no?


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