Is it time for Ireland to have a penal colony?

Swampy · 02-02-2013 1:22pm

Murders, Rapists and Pedos of any sort should have their fingers and thumbs cut off as well as a prison sentence. That will help curtail more potential offences by them.

kowloon · 02-02-2013 1:49pm

shamrock55 wrote: »

Death penalty end off and all for the price of a bullet!!

There's wear and tear on the gun too. We would have to appoint a new minister of execution with junior ministers in charge of the departments tasked with loading the gun, carrying it out to the yard, pulling the trigger and cleaning it afterwards. The maintenance contract would probably cost more than our current system.

ejmaztec · 02-02-2013 2:02pm

Cover Rockall with a thick layer of grease and send 'em there. It will make for interesting TV3 viewing - "Criminals dancing on grease".

kraggy · 02-02-2013 2:20pm

shamrock55 wrote: »

Death penalty end off and all for the price of a bullet!!

It actually costs more to execute someone than than it does to imprison them for life.

Inmates are usually on death row for years while appeals are filed and heard. The legal argument and appeals process incur massive legal fees for the government which makes it more expensive than to house the inmate for life.

Grayson · 02-02-2013 2:28pm

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I mean one of you could end up in jail yourselves one day. Doesn't mean you're a total sociopath does it?

That's where you're wrong. The world is divided up into the OP and everyone else.

IM0 · 02-02-2013 2:34pm

Doom wrote: »

Seriously, when you pick up the paper or look at the news.....some people are fecking animals.
Rapes, murders, assaults, robbery with assaults/death, drugs and knife crime.
We will have less Gardai available to fight crime and when they do get these scum to court, they get off very light, I would support the idea of a Island off the coast which is a totally enclosed prison which will house all the different categories of criminal.
Hard labour for them all, I'm sure the costs would be half of what they pay to keep them there too.
This would leave the rest of the system deal with not so heinous/ violent crimes.

apt username is apt, I suggest you leave the house more and listen to and take less note of 'news' it can leave you with a condition called mean world syndrome

The King of Moo · 02-02-2013 2:36pm

Doom wrote: »

Seriously, when you pick up the paper or look at the news.....some people are fecking animals.
Rapes, murders, assaults, robbery with assaults/death, drugs and knife crime.
We will have less Gardai available to fight crime and when they do get these scum to court, they get off very light, I would support the idea of a Island off the coast which is a totally enclosed prison which will house all the different categories of criminal.
Hard labour for them all, I'm sure the costs would be half of what they pay to keep them there too.
This would leave the rest of the system deal with not so heinous/ violent crimes.

There's your mistake. Don't do that, you're not going to get an accurate depiction of Irish society, which is not rife with serious crime.

In fact, seeing as crime figures have fallen in the last number of years, maybe we should close a prison instead of opening a new one.

I hope I've put your mind at ease about crime in Ireland.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 02-02-2013 3:42pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

I hope I've put your mind at ease about crime in Ireland.

I don't think it'll be much comfort to people actually effected by crime.
The likelihood of getting randomly attacked (etc.) may be low, but it does happen, and it's no less horrific when it does.
Maybe the system is largely working, but when you see cases where someone has a huge string of convictions, you have to ask how much human suffering is worth one person's rehabilitation. At what point do you give up on someone who isn't responding?
I don't think it's so much a case of seeing crime as rampant, as much as there being needless suffering going on because a few dangerous people who aren't being dealt with effectively.
Trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a frustrating thing to watch, especially when the result is another victim.
I think the calls to lock em up and throw away the key are expressions of this frustration. On the other end of the spectrum you might have calls to put more money behind treatment/rehabilitation. I suppose it depends on whether you think the worst offenders can be helped or whether they deserve it.
I think it's a perfectly legitimate complaint, and fighting over who's newspaper is bigger is besides the point.

Odysseus · 02-02-2013 4:07pm

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I don't think it'll be much comfort to people actually effected by crime.
The likelihood of getting randomly attacked (etc.) may be low, but it does happen, and it's no less horrific when it does.
Maybe the system is largely working, but when you see cases where someone has a huge string of convictions, you have to ask how much human suffering is worth one person's rehabilitation. At what point do you give up on someone who isn't responding?
I don't think it's so much a case of seeing crime as rampant, as much as there being needless suffering going on because a few dangerous people who aren't being dealt with effectively.
Trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a frustrating thing to watch, especially when the result is another victim.
I think the calls to lock em up and throw away the key are expressions of this frustration. On the other end of the spectrum you might have calls to put more money behind treatment/rehabilitation. I suppose it depends on whether you think the worst offenders can be helped or whether they deserve it.
I think it's a perfectly legitimate complaint, and fighting over who's newspaper is bigger is besides the point

.

I don't know how many convictions should we allow? I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and give you an honest answer;I don't really know after working with lads for well over a decade.

How many shots should we give them? I have seen lads pull it together after 1, 5, 50, 100+ convictions; other lads keep building them up. Some don't think they will ever make it, see it as their only way of life.

Others tried and say a life event sets them back. Other lads that I may see most days never even make it into my office.

Who are the worst offenders? Are these the guys who commit the nasty violent crimes or the ones who commit the petty shoplifting etc ones [no volence] or maybe both?

So how do we deal with them effectively? We can't just lock them up for ever? We have to release them at some stage, so what happens then?

Bad Santa · 02-02-2013 4:10pm

Compared to other parts of the world, Ireland's a pretty civilized place to love and I know I used the American spelling of that last word but I chose US when installing Firefox and I ain't changing it now. Criticize me for it and I'll stripe ya.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 02-02-2013 5:46pm

Odysseus wrote: »

I don't know how many convictions should we allow?

I don't know, how many victims should we allow?
I'm not trying to answer the question, I'm just defending the legitimacy of it.
I'm bored of seeing it blown off with accusations of daily mail readership.
I think there's a tendency for every post to be seen as polarised to one extreme or the other. I don't know the answer, but I'd like to read the discussion.

Odysseus wrote: »

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and give you an honest answer;I don't really know after working with lads for well over a decade.

I appreciate it.

Odysseus wrote: »

So how do we deal with them effectively? We can't just lock them up for ever? We have to release them at some stage, so what happens then?

Personally, I'd favour some kind of exile. Let all the people who can't keep their hands to themselves and can't stop themselves taking what doesn't belong to them, live together and see how that society works out for them. Raises the question - would it be humane to put someone into such a dysfunctional society.
That, or progressively longer sentences.
I know I'm out of my depth on this issue, and I may be completely full of shit, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, let's discuss the points rather than flippantly disregarding them as right-wing idiocy. (Not accusing you of that btw)
For personal reasons, my sympathies lie more with the victims than the perpetrators, a bias I think a lot of people only get when confronted by the visceral reality that crime is real and can happen to them. In a way I think the notion that all violent criminals are just misunderstood and fixable is partly a luxury, an ideal people cling to because the alternative is too hard to deal with. But again, it's uninformed bias on my part. I have a pretty bleak world-view, and even at the cost of being embarrassingly wrong and told-off, there's a part of me that wants to be convinced otherwise.

Odysseus · 02-02-2013 6:58pm

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I don't know, how many victims should we allow?
I'm not trying to answer the question, I'm just defending the legitimacy of it.
I'm bored of seeing it blown off with accusations of daily mail readership.
I think there's a tendency for every post to be seen as polarised to one extreme or the other. I don't know the answer, but I'd like to read the discussion.

I appreciate it.

Personally, I'd favour some kind of exile. Let all the people who can't keep their hands to themselves and can't stop themselves taking what doesn't belong to them, live together and see how that society works out for them. Raises the question - would it be humane to put someone into such a dysfunctional society.
That, or progressively longer sentences.
I know I'm out of my depth on this issue, and I may be completely full of shit, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, let's discuss the points rather than flippantly disregarding them as right-wing idiocy. (Not accusing you of that btw)
For personal reasons, my sympathies lie more with the victims than the perpetrators, a bias I think a lot of people only get when confronted by the visceral reality that crime is real and can happen to them. In a way I think the notion that all violent criminals are just misunderstood and fixable is partly a luxury, an ideal people cling to because the alternative is too hard to deal with. But again, it's uninformed bias on my part. I have a pretty bleak world-view, and even at the cost of being embarrassingly wrong and told-off, there's a part of me that wants to be convinced otherwise.

Firstly, me posting about the benefit of the doubt, didn't come out right, I apologise for that; but I hope you know what I meant.

I guess I get pissed off when the lock them up, hang them high gang post stuff that is not thought out.

I never claim to be an expert or to have the answers here, but it isn't often I see something here that may work. I'm all up for discussions and fcuk it none can be right all the time there is nothing wrong with not being right, it you can see that when it is pointed out to you.

I agree with the labelling such how often am I'm told I'm a beelding heart etc,

I honestly don't know where my sympathies lie, on a profession basis I would avoid having sympathies for anyone victim or offender, and I guess some of that rubs off into my personal life.

Where should one stand with a addicted sex worker who was raped? I just try see the person in front of me, but that doesn't work on a larger scale.

I have posted this many time that any of the guys I visit in any of the jails usually deserve to be there, but we need to do something to stop people spending their lives going in and out of prison, and I don't think longer jail terms will supply that.

It really is a very complex area and I would love a rational discussion on the topic but I don't know if that is possible here. People can get so outrage because you disagree with them, difficult to understand if they have no connection to the case being discussed.

I'm not sure what you mean thinking that everybody is fixable; I certainly don't think that. However, I have see people written off by schools, the justice system, psych teams, and society in generable turn their lives around. I work with one or two of them.

What do you think is the alternative that people are avoiding?

As to your option of exile, it needs more detail in order for it to be discussed. It raises lot of questions, your just cutting people off from their families. Some might say fcuk them, but what about their family, if they have not commited a crime are they not being punished? Where would this place be? How long are they tnere for? Exiled for all crimes? If not which ones? I'm sure you know that yourself.

ThreeLineWhip · 02-02-2013 7:18pm

wexie wrote: »

Island off the coast, minefields on the beaches, webcams all over, airdrop food and weapons in once every so often.....pay per view!!!

Kinda like this

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443473/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093894/ tbh

I would pay good money to see the scum of Ireland being chased around Limerick by trained assassins for the amusement of the law abiding.

naughtysmurf · 02-02-2013 9:24pm

kraggy wrote: »

It actually costs more to execute someone than than it does to imprison them for life.

Inmates are usually on death row for years while appeals are filed and heard. The legal argument and appeals process incur massive legal fees for the government which makes it more expensive than to house the inmate for life.

Yes but that's the US model, could we not save loads by not bothering with the housing them, lengthy appeals process, legal fees etc and skip straight to the execution bit

The King of Moo · 02-02-2013 9:31pm

naughtysmurf wrote: »

Yes but that's the US model, could we not save loads by not bothering with the housing them, lengthy appeals process, legal fees etc and skip straight to the execution bit

What about wrongly-convicted people?

books4sale · 02-02-2013 9:41pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

What about wrongly-convicted people?

Reminds me of the saying.

'There's no smoke without fire'

Ronin247 · 02-02-2013 9:51pm

I hear the argument about rehabilitation " but if you only help 2 out of 100 turn it around,is it not worth it??" No, because the other 98 have gone on to destroy a few hundred other lives.
So it is quite simple for me....extremely harsh penalties. I would cut off hands of thieves,penises off pedos,death penalty for murderers and bring back the birch.

The reason our laws are soft ??? the people who write the laws and enact them and judge criminals are the very people who make profit off repeat offenders...think about it. If we locked up all the criminals what would the lawyers do?? (granted half them would be locked up as well)

Rant over

The King of Moo · 02-02-2013 9:56pm

books4sale wrote: »

Reminds me of the saying.

'There's no smoke without fire'

Do you think that all
people wrongly convicted of crimes are partially guilty somehow?

What about the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four?

Ronin247 wrote: »

I hear the argument about rehabilitation " but if you only help 2 out of 100 turn it around,is it not worth it??" No, because the other 98 have gone on to destroy a few hundred other lives.
So it is quite simple for me....extremely harsh penalties. I would cut off hands of thieves,penises off pedos,death penalty for murderers and bring back the birch.

The reason our laws are soft ??? the people who write the laws and enact them and judge criminals are the very people who make profit off repeat offenders...think about it. If we locked up all the criminals what would the lawyers do?? (granted half them would be locked up as well)

Rant over

Such extreme punishments have never been shown to serve as effective deterrents. They just deter criminals from getting caught.

Did you have a look at the Norwegian open prison linked to earlier? Rehabilitation, when done properly, can be extremely effective in reducing recidivism.
Even the Daily Mail seemed fairly impressed.

ToddyDoody · 02-02-2013 10:13pm

I'm all for it's erection.

Chemical Burn · 02-02-2013 10:17pm

No, just bing back hanging

opti0nal · 02-02-2013 10:28pm

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

...If you commit a serious crime, you get kicked out and half your assets seized.

The government alraedy takes half of everyone's money...and most of us are not lucky enough to live in Longford.

Boombastic · 02-02-2013 10:50pm

The cliffs of moher already has a visitors centre wouldn't cost too much to add a viewing stand and over they go

Boombastic · 02-02-2013 10:51pm

The cliffs of moher already has a visitors centre wouldn't cost too much to add a viewing stand and over they go

books4sale · 03-02-2013 12:38am

The King of Moo wrote: »

Do you think that all
people wrongly convicted of crimes are partially guilty somehow?

.

Unfortunatley some people knowingly or unknowingly make strange life decisions, friendships or put themselves into a situation that allows the finger to be pointed unfairly in their direction when something illegal goes down.

This is what leads the law whether they be bent or not to land on their doorstep.

The King of Moo · 03-02-2013 4:24am

books4sale wrote: »

Unfortunatley some people knowingly or unknowingly make strange life decisions, friendships or put themselves into a situation that allows the finger to be pointed unfairly in their direction when something illegal goes down.

This is what leads the law whether they be bent or not to land on their doorstep.

And not being in the wrong place at the wrong time, looking like the wrong person, being a convenient scapegoat, or falling victim to incompetent law-enforcement officials?

You don't think that those things might lead to a wrongful conviction, instead of being in a position which makes one seem to be a criminal, which is hardly a justification for illegally incarcerating someone, let alone executing an innocent person. It's not even what "no smoke without fire" means.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 03-02-2013 4:39am

Prison has to be a deterrent. The question is how extreme can you realistically go? The hard labour angle has been proven to not work, US prisons are tough joints but yet many of their inmates are repeat offenders, especially seen in the black community for instance. Crime is a problem which will never be solved.

Is it time for Ireland to have a penal colony?

Comments