Is it time for Ireland to have a penal colony?

Doom

Seriously, when you pick up the paper or look at the news.....some people are fecking animals.
Rapes, murders, assaults, robbery with assaults/death, drugs and knife crime.
We will have less Gardai available to fight crime and when they do get these scum to court, they get off very light, I would support the idea of a Island off the coast which is a totally enclosed prison which will house all the different categories of criminal.
Hard labour for them all, I'm sure the costs would be half of what they pay to keep them there too.
This would leave the rest of the system deal with not so heinous/ violent crimes.

Robbo

Do we not do already this on the QT with Bondi?

mike65

[inserts rabble rabble comment here for thanks]

BraziliaNZ

mike65 wrote: »

[inserts rabble rabble comment here for thanks]

How do you post so much on the Guardian AND here?!?
And what's with the hard line on criminals on boards these days? Worse than bloody Americans ffs

shamrock55

Death penalty end off and all for the price of a bullet!!

long range shooter

It works fine in Norway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastøy_Prison

Fromthetrees

Open Spike island again.

I was watching one of Tv3's many sh1tty documentaries and they said it's been the same number of felas doing most of the killing in Limerick over the past decade. It implied that if you locked up 20 or so it would reduce crime by a major amount.

folan

send em all to Oz!

thatll teach em.

Agricola

[Inserts leftie comment calling for more hugs for some beleaguered sectors of society]

the purple tin

Build a huge hamster wheel in Carnagh east. The lags can take turns running on it and provide electricity to the whole island.

Dr Turk Turkelton

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

How do you post so much on the Guardian AND here?!?
And what's with the hard line on criminals on boards these days? Worse than bloody Americans ffs

I know it's almost as if people want to penalize the scum criminal element of society.
When will the racism against criminals end?
From now on anyone who says anything bad against criminals is a racist.

hfallada

We already have an unofficial penal colony which is sunny Spain. Any of the scumbags that feel there life is in danger disappear and end up in Spain a few year later. The amount of Irish people that end up death in Spain cause of "gangland feuds" is fairly common well it was anyway

MaxSteele

What's the difference between Mountjoy and a penal colony ? I don't understand. Prisoners run the show ? guards keep watch from outside the prison walls ?

wexie

MaxSteele wrote: »

What's the difference between Mountjoy and a penal colony ? I don't understand. Prisoners run the show ? guards keep watch from outside the prison walls ?

Island off the coast, minefields on the beaches, webcams all over, airdrop food and weapons in once every so often.....pay per view!!!

Kinda like this

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443473/

syklops

MaxSteele wrote: »

What's the difference between Mountjoy and a penal colony ? ?

No sandy beaches.

hooradiation

Doom wrote: »

Seriously, when you pick up the paper or look at the news.....some people are fecking animals.
Rapes, murders, assaults, robbery with assaults/death, drugs and knife crime.
We will have less Gardai available to fight crime and when they do get these scum to court, they get off very light, I would support the idea of a Island off the coast which is a totally enclosed prison which will house all the different categories of criminal.
Hard labour for them all, I'm sure the costs would be half of what they pay to keep them there too.
This would leave the rest of the system deal with not so heinous/ violent crimes.

No, terrible idea. Stop talking.

BraziliaNZ

I mean one of you could end up in jail yourselves one day. Doesn't mean you're a total sociopath does it?

Nodin

long range shooter wrote: »

It works fine in Norway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastøy_Prison

Once a prison colony for young boys, the facility now is trying to become "the first ecological prison in the world."[2] Inmates are housed in wooden cottages and work the prison farm.[4] During their free time, inmates have access to horseback riding, fishing, tennis, and cross-country skiing.[2][5]

...not really the concept he was after, I'd say.

Maxsteele wrote:

What's the difference between Mountjoy and a penal colony ?

Theres less of a smell of shit and piss in the outdoors.

JupiterKid

But we already have a penal colony...








...it's called Limerick.:pac:

long range shooter

Nodin wrote: »

...not really the concept he was after, I'd

Still works though,I guess you don't want criminals keep coming back again to visit.;)

Nodin

long range shooter wrote: »

Still works though,I guess you don't want criminals keep coming back again to visit.;)

O i know it does. However its not pain and misery enough for some, so theres SFA chance of that model being employed here.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Maybe we could do the opposite, where the peaceful, law-abiding people can move into a closed area. Build a Great Wall around somewhere sparsely populated, say Longford, and develop it. If you commit a serious crime, you get kicked out and half your assets seized.

long range shooter

Nodin wrote: »

O i know it does. However its not pain and misery enough for some, so theres SFA chance of that model being employed here.

Guess so,but maybe you can rent Alcatraz then;):D:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcatraz_Island

ART6

All of you people are ignoring basic human rights. Someone who commits murder is sentenced to life imprisonment, which generally means ten years. Therefore, it is logical to assume that someone of age thirty has only ten years of life left. If they manage to live longer than that, then it would be an infringement of their human rights to contain them any longer, thus denying their liberty. If they chose to use that liberty to go off and murder the odd Garda, then they could be sentenced to another draconian period of ten years (with a few years knocked off for good behaviour).

During their periods of incarceration they will be rehabilitated which, in layman's language, means that they will discover more inventive ways to plan their crimes. This is their right, because it is the path that they have chosen. This right is even enshrined in the Holy Bible and so it cannot be contested.

So all you people who demand the death penalty, or deportation to Tasmania, or a penal battalion on Spike Island, are living in the past. You really must learn to nurture your criminal element in the secure belief that as a result of that nurturing they will become stalwart members of their local communities.

Best regards

Shatter

Nodin

ART6 wrote: »

All of you people are ignoring basic human rights. Someone who commits murder is sentenced to life imprisonment, which generally means ten years.......

It doesn't, actually.

Mr Benevolent

Doom wrote: »

Seriously, when you pick up the paper or look at the news.....some people are fecking animals.
Rapes, murders, assaults, robbery with assaults/death, drugs and knife crime.
We will have less Gardai available to fight crime and when they do get these scum to court, they get off very light, I would support the idea of a Island off the coast which is a totally enclosed prison which will house all the different categories of criminal.
Hard labour for them all, I'm sure the costs would be half of what they pay to keep them there too.
This would leave the rest of the system deal with not so heinous/ violent crimes.

Another one who gets his opinions from the Irish Sun.

Doom

Confab wrote: »

Another one who gets his opinions from the Irish Sun.

When you grow up in Limerick city, you see it first hand. I wouldn't waste my money on a rag like the Sun.

keithclancy

What about turning one of the Islands into an open prison.

Get some unemployed builders to build a whole ghost estate/town on it (Ireland's good at that)

Stick cameras all over the place and provide food and enough resources for 80% of the Prisoners. Then chuck in some mad max style vehicles and swords and stuff.

Sell the TV rights to Universal and its a self funding prison.

:pac::pac::pac:

Either they go nuts and kill each other, or reform into a civilised society as they have no other choice. *Either way its good TV (or bad) depending on your point of view

fuerte1976

Beavis: [Laughing with Butt-head] He/She said penal.:P:P:P:pac::pac::pac:

crockholm

Is there an Irish version of that U.S. women prisoners dating service that was investigated by after hours recently. A penile colon-y might be just what the doctor ordered.

stupid puns

Guy:Incognito

Penis colony? Sounds gay.

Swampy

Murders, Rapists and Pedos of any sort should have their fingers and thumbs cut off as well as a prison sentence. That will help curtail more potential offences by them.

kowloon

shamrock55 wrote: »

Death penalty end off and all for the price of a bullet!!

There's wear and tear on the gun too. We would have to appoint a new minister of execution with junior ministers in charge of the departments tasked with loading the gun, carrying it out to the yard, pulling the trigger and cleaning it afterwards. The maintenance contract would probably cost more than our current system.

ejmaztec

Cover Rockall with a thick layer of grease and send 'em there. It will make for interesting TV3 viewing - "Criminals dancing on grease".

kraggy

shamrock55 wrote: »

Death penalty end off and all for the price of a bullet!!

It actually costs more to execute someone than than it does to imprison them for life.

Inmates are usually on death row for years while appeals are filed and heard. The legal argument and appeals process incur massive legal fees for the government which makes it more expensive than to house the inmate for life.

Grayson

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I mean one of you could end up in jail yourselves one day. Doesn't mean you're a total sociopath does it?

That's where you're wrong. The world is divided up into the OP and everyone else.

IM0

Doom wrote: »

Seriously, when you pick up the paper or look at the news.....some people are fecking animals.
Rapes, murders, assaults, robbery with assaults/death, drugs and knife crime.
We will have less Gardai available to fight crime and when they do get these scum to court, they get off very light, I would support the idea of a Island off the coast which is a totally enclosed prison which will house all the different categories of criminal.
Hard labour for them all, I'm sure the costs would be half of what they pay to keep them there too.
This would leave the rest of the system deal with not so heinous/ violent crimes.

apt username is apt, I suggest you leave the house more and listen to and take less note of 'news' it can leave you with a condition called mean world syndrome

The King of Moo

Doom wrote: »

Seriously, when you pick up the paper or look at the news.....some people are fecking animals.
Rapes, murders, assaults, robbery with assaults/death, drugs and knife crime.
We will have less Gardai available to fight crime and when they do get these scum to court, they get off very light, I would support the idea of a Island off the coast which is a totally enclosed prison which will house all the different categories of criminal.
Hard labour for them all, I'm sure the costs would be half of what they pay to keep them there too.
This would leave the rest of the system deal with not so heinous/ violent crimes.

There's your mistake. Don't do that, you're not going to get an accurate depiction of Irish society, which is not rife with serious crime.

In fact, seeing as crime figures have fallen in the last number of years, maybe we should close a prison instead of opening a new one.

I hope I've put your mind at ease about crime in Ireland.

DonkeyStyle \o/

The King of Moo wrote: »

I hope I've put your mind at ease about crime in Ireland.

I don't think it'll be much comfort to people actually effected by crime.
The likelihood of getting randomly attacked (etc.) may be low, but it does happen, and it's no less horrific when it does.
Maybe the system is largely working, but when you see cases where someone has a huge string of convictions, you have to ask how much human suffering is worth one person's rehabilitation. At what point do you give up on someone who isn't responding?
I don't think it's so much a case of seeing crime as rampant, as much as there being needless suffering going on because a few dangerous people who aren't being dealt with effectively.
Trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a frustrating thing to watch, especially when the result is another victim.
I think the calls to lock em up and throw away the key are expressions of this frustration. On the other end of the spectrum you might have calls to put more money behind treatment/rehabilitation. I suppose it depends on whether you think the worst offenders can be helped or whether they deserve it.
I think it's a perfectly legitimate complaint, and fighting over who's newspaper is bigger is besides the point.

Odysseus

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I don't think it'll be much comfort to people actually effected by crime.
The likelihood of getting randomly attacked (etc.) may be low, but it does happen, and it's no less horrific when it does.
Maybe the system is largely working, but when you see cases where someone has a huge string of convictions, you have to ask how much human suffering is worth one person's rehabilitation. At what point do you give up on someone who isn't responding?
I don't think it's so much a case of seeing crime as rampant, as much as there being needless suffering going on because a few dangerous people who aren't being dealt with effectively.
Trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a frustrating thing to watch, especially when the result is another victim.
I think the calls to lock em up and throw away the key are expressions of this frustration. On the other end of the spectrum you might have calls to put more money behind treatment/rehabilitation. I suppose it depends on whether you think the worst offenders can be helped or whether they deserve it.
I think it's a perfectly legitimate complaint, and fighting over who's newspaper is bigger is besides the point

.

I don't know how many convictions should we allow? I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and give you an honest answer;I don't really know after working with lads for well over a decade.

How many shots should we give them? I have seen lads pull it together after 1, 5, 50, 100+ convictions; other lads keep building them up. Some don't think they will ever make it, see it as their only way of life.

Others tried and say a life event sets them back. Other lads that I may see most days never even make it into my office.


Who are the worst offenders? Are these the guys who commit the nasty violent crimes or the ones who commit the petty shoplifting etc ones [no volence] or maybe both?

So how do we deal with them effectively? We can't just lock them up for ever? We have to release them at some stage, so what happens then?

Bad Santa

Compared to other parts of the world, Ireland's a pretty civilized place to love and I know I used the American spelling of that last word but I chose US when installing Firefox and I ain't changing it now. Criticize me for it and I'll stripe ya.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Odysseus wrote: »

I don't know how many convictions should we allow?

I don't know, how many victims should we allow?
I'm not trying to answer the question, I'm just defending the legitimacy of it.
I'm bored of seeing it blown off with accusations of daily mail readership.
I think there's a tendency for every post to be seen as polarised to one extreme or the other. I don't know the answer, but I'd like to read the discussion.

Odysseus wrote: »

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and give you an honest answer;I don't really know after working with lads for well over a decade.

I appreciate it.

Odysseus wrote: »

So how do we deal with them effectively? We can't just lock them up for ever? We have to release them at some stage, so what happens then?

Personally, I'd favour some kind of exile. Let all the people who can't keep their hands to themselves and can't stop themselves taking what doesn't belong to them, live together and see how that society works out for them. Raises the question - would it be humane to put someone into such a dysfunctional society.
That, or progressively longer sentences.
I know I'm out of my depth on this issue, and I may be completely full of shit, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, let's discuss the points rather than flippantly disregarding them as right-wing idiocy. (Not accusing you of that btw)
For personal reasons, my sympathies lie more with the victims than the perpetrators, a bias I think a lot of people only get when confronted by the visceral reality that crime is real and can happen to them. In a way I think the notion that all violent criminals are just misunderstood and fixable is partly a luxury, an ideal people cling to because the alternative is too hard to deal with. But again, it's uninformed bias on my part. I have a pretty bleak world-view, and even at the cost of being embarrassingly wrong and told-off, there's a part of me that wants to be convinced otherwise.

Odysseus

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I don't know, how many victims should we allow?
I'm not trying to answer the question, I'm just defending the legitimacy of it.
I'm bored of seeing it blown off with accusations of daily mail readership.
I think there's a tendency for every post to be seen as polarised to one extreme or the other. I don't know the answer, but I'd like to read the discussion.

I appreciate it.

Personally, I'd favour some kind of exile. Let all the people who can't keep their hands to themselves and can't stop themselves taking what doesn't belong to them, live together and see how that society works out for them. Raises the question - would it be humane to put someone into such a dysfunctional society.
That, or progressively longer sentences.
I know I'm out of my depth on this issue, and I may be completely full of shit, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, let's discuss the points rather than flippantly disregarding them as right-wing idiocy. (Not accusing you of that btw)
For personal reasons, my sympathies lie more with the victims than the perpetrators, a bias I think a lot of people only get when confronted by the visceral reality that crime is real and can happen to them. In a way I think the notion that all violent criminals are just misunderstood and fixable is partly a luxury, an ideal people cling to because the alternative is too hard to deal with. But again, it's uninformed bias on my part. I have a pretty bleak world-view, and even at the cost of being embarrassingly wrong and told-off, there's a part of me that wants to be convinced otherwise.

Firstly, me posting about the benefit of the doubt, didn't come out right, I apologise for that; but I hope you know what I meant.

I guess I get pissed off when the lock them up, hang them high gang post stuff that is not thought out.

I never claim to be an expert or to have the answers here, but it isn't often I see something here that may work. I'm all up for discussions and fcuk it none can be right all the time there is nothing wrong with not being right, it you can see that when it is pointed out to you.

I agree with the labelling such how often am I'm told I'm a beelding heart etc,


I honestly don't know where my sympathies lie, on a profession basis I would avoid having sympathies for anyone victim or offender, and I guess some of that rubs off into my personal life.

Where should one stand with a addicted sex worker who was raped? I just try see the person in front of me, but that doesn't work on a larger scale.

I have posted this many time that any of the guys I visit in any of the jails usually deserve to be there, but we need to do something to stop people spending their lives going in and out of prison, and I don't think longer jail terms will supply that.

It really is a very complex area and I would love a rational discussion on the topic but I don't know if that is possible here. People can get so outrage because you disagree with them, difficult to understand if they have no connection to the case being discussed.

I'm not sure what you mean thinking that everybody is fixable; I certainly don't think that. However, I have see people written off by schools, the justice system, psych teams, and society in generable turn their lives around. I work with one or two of them.

What do you think is the alternative that people are avoiding?

As to your option of exile, it needs more detail in order for it to be discussed. It raises lot of questions, your just cutting people off from their families. Some might say fcuk them, but what about their family, if they have not commited a crime are they not being punished? Where would this place be? How long are they tnere for? Exiled for all crimes? If not which ones? I'm sure you know that yourself.

ThreeLineWhip

wexie wrote: »

Island off the coast, minefields on the beaches, webcams all over, airdrop food and weapons in once every so often.....pay per view!!!

Kinda like this

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443473/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093894/ tbh

I would pay good money to see the scum of Ireland being chased around Limerick by trained assassins for the amusement of the law abiding.

naughtysmurf

kraggy wrote: »

It actually costs more to execute someone than than it does to imprison them for life.

Inmates are usually on death row for years while appeals are filed and heard. The legal argument and appeals process incur massive legal fees for the government which makes it more expensive than to house the inmate for life.

Yes but that's the US model, could we not save loads by not bothering with the housing them, lengthy appeals process, legal fees etc and skip straight to the execution bit

The King of Moo

naughtysmurf wrote: »

Yes but that's the US model, could we not save loads by not bothering with the housing them, lengthy appeals process, legal fees etc and skip straight to the execution bit

What about wrongly-convicted people?

books4sale

The King of Moo wrote: »

What about wrongly-convicted people?

Reminds me of the saying.

'There's no smoke without fire'

Ronin247

I hear the argument about rehabilitation " but if you only help 2 out of 100 turn it around,is it not worth it??" No, because the other 98 have gone on to destroy a few hundred other lives.
So it is quite simple for me....extremely harsh penalties. I would cut off hands of thieves,penises off pedos,death penalty for murderers and bring back the birch.

The reason our laws are soft ??? the people who write the laws and enact them and judge criminals are the very people who make profit off repeat offenders...think about it. If we locked up all the criminals what would the lawyers do?? (granted half them would be locked up as well)

Rant over

The King of Moo

books4sale wrote: »

Reminds me of the saying.

'There's no smoke without fire'

Do you think that all
people wrongly convicted of crimes are partially guilty somehow?

What about the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four?

Ronin247 wrote: »

I hear the argument about rehabilitation " but if you only help 2 out of 100 turn it around,is it not worth it??" No, because the other 98 have gone on to destroy a few hundred other lives.
So it is quite simple for me....extremely harsh penalties. I would cut off hands of thieves,penises off pedos,death penalty for murderers and bring back the birch.

The reason our laws are soft ??? the people who write the laws and enact them and judge criminals are the very people who make profit off repeat offenders...think about it. If we locked up all the criminals what would the lawyers do?? (granted half them would be locked up as well)

Rant over

Such extreme punishments have never been shown to serve as effective deterrents. They just deter criminals from getting caught.

Did you have a look at the Norwegian open prison linked to earlier? Rehabilitation, when done properly, can be extremely effective in reducing recidivism.
Even the Daily Mail seemed fairly impressed.

ToddyDoody

I'm all for it's erection.

Chemical Burn

No, just bing back hanging