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People's opinions on races leading up to a marathon

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    #62
    sideswipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭sideswipe


    menoscemo wrote: »

    I definitely think doing a HM @ PMP 6 weeks out would serve a much more specific and appropriate stimulus than a 10k race...

    This is the decision i've come to myself- however my half marathon is 3 weeks out from Barca. Would I be crazy to run my last 20 mile LSR with a 13.1 mile MP segment? P&D has the last MP LSR 6-7 weeks out.


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    #63
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    sideswipe wrote: »
    This is the decision i've come to myself- however my half marathon is 3 weeks out from Barca. Would I be crazy to run my last 20 mile LSR with a 13.1 mile MP segment? P&D has the last MP LSR 6-7 weeks out.

    I can't see how that would be crazy?
    I'll be doing the same myself at the Balbriigan HM (though granted it is 4 weeks out). Surely 3 weeks out you should be at your training peak?


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    #64
    sideswipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭sideswipe


    menoscemo wrote: »
    I can't see how that would be crazy?
    I'll be doing the same myself at the Balbriigan HM (though granted it is 4 weeks out). Surely 3 weeks out you should be at your training peak?

    Yeah, I would always have thought it would be a well timed session. The fact P&D don't advocate MP miles in the last 6-7 weeks just begged the question I suppose. I do think that P&D is a little light on MP miles though, so I'll give it a lash!


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    #65
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    I've always thought of the "half marathon at marathon pace" as a bit of a cop-out. Anyone can run the first half of a marathon at their planned pace, and anyone can run a half marathon at that pace. The hard bit is keeping it up for the full distance. 21k at PMP will have the same physical effect on your own or in a race environment, but is psychologically much harder - so much better - if you run on your own.
    Thoughts?


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    #66
    BeepBeep67
    Registered Users Posts: 8,080 ✭✭✭BeepBeep67


    RayCun wrote: »
    I've always thought of the "half marathon at marathon pace" as a bit of a cop-out. Anyone can run the first half of a marathon at their planned pace, and anyone can run a half marathon at that pace. The hard bit is keeping it up for the full distance. 21k at PMP will have the same physical effect on your own or in a race environment, but is psychologically much harder - so much better - if you run on your own.
    Thoughts?

    Ideally if you can do a long W/U 5+ miles, a decent CD and if you are not tapering for the HM, it should still stress the system and presents an opportunity for a race day dry run.


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    #67
    sideswipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭sideswipe


    RayCun wrote: »
    I've always thought of the "half marathon at marathon pace" as a bit of a cop-out. Anyone can run the first half of a marathon at their planned pace, and anyone can run a half marathon at that pace. The hard bit is keeping it up for the full distance. 21k at PMP will have the same physical effect on your own or in a race environment, but is psychologically much harder - so much better - if you run on your own.
    Thoughts?

    Good point. P&D drop MP miles from long runs and have tune up races instead over the last few weeks. What I'm trying to decide on is weather racing a 10k would have a better training effect than a MP half with w/u and c/d for the last 20 miler. I don't race shorter distances much and haven't really done tune up races before a marathon in the past, so really I'm working in the dark when it comes to the best way to approach these races.:confused:


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    #68
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    RayCun wrote: »
    I've always thought of the "half marathon at marathon pace" as a bit of a cop-out. Anyone can run the first half of a marathon at their planned pace, and anyone can run a half marathon at that pace. The hard bit is keeping it up for the full distance. 21k at PMP will have the same physical effect on your own or in a race environment, but is psychologically much harder - so much better - if you run on your own.
    Thoughts?

    I'm with you on the bolded part in so many ways.

    But it doesn't get away from the fact that running a flat out HM 6 weeks out would require two down weeks (especially for a poor 'recoverer' like me) in the middle of what should be peak training and that just doesn't make good training sense when you sit down and think about it.

    I don't think anyone is saying that psycologically it is not easier to run 13 miles at PMP in a race environment than in training. However surely the physical training effect is the same. Indicators like HR could also be measured to judge fitness. Coming at the end of a peak mileage week it should be a bit tougher than normal (not quite the first 13 miles in a marathon when tapered and fresh; more like miles 5-18).
    Also when you are going to run for a certain target in your marathon come what may; what does your time in a Half marathon actually acheive anyway? Is it not more beneficial to practise your race pace and strategy in a similar environment?


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    #69
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    sideswipe wrote: »
    Good point. P&D drop MP miles from long runs and have tune up races instead over the last few weeks. What I'm trying to decide on is weather racing a 10k would have a better training effect than a MP half with w/u and c/d for the last 20 miler. I don't race shorter distances much and haven't really done tune up races before a marathon in the past, so really I'm working in the dark when it comes to the best way to approach these races.:confused:

    I personally just don't agree with P&D when it comes to this stuff. I think you should be doing as many PMP miles as possible in the last 6-8 weeks; not racing 10ks and doing VO2max workouts.
    In saying that if you have been following their programme in all other aspects you may as well keep doing so....


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    #70
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭ger664


    Sorry lads I don't get this rest up so that you can run a good time. Its a tune up race not your goal race. You shouldn't care if you PB or not. You don't need to rest up before for a week, or take the next week off to recover. Both P&D's tune-up races have easy workouts for maybe 2-3 days before hand followed by 16 Mile Long/Easy the day after the race. Neither Tune-up race on the 55 mile plan is longer the 10 milesThe objective from where I see it is you run these races flatout or as hard as you can at the time. It wont be as fast as you can go because you will be limited by not having tapered and in the middle of a training cycle for a completely different beast with no race specific training done for the distance in question.

    My take on this is that shorter flat out races followed by long run the day after is more beneficial then 13 mile flatout/PMP race on its own with adequate rest before and after. With this in mind maybe the question should be Should we run a half marathon leading up to a marathon ?


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    #71
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    menoscemo wrote: »
    But it doesn't get away from the fact that running a flat out HM 6 weeks out would require two down weeks (especially for a poor 'recoverer' like me) in the middle of what should be peak training and that just doesn't make good training sense when you sit down and think about it.

    Yeah, I've been thinking about this (since Stazza's question). I've 9 weeks between half and full in spring, and will have 11/12 weeks between half/10 mile and marathon in the autumn. (But I will be using that time as a check on my marathon, setting an upper limit for the pace at various stages of the marathon)

    Hmmm... I don't even know if the plan calls for 13 miles at PMP... maybe it would be worth swapping in a half at PMP (plus warm-up) for an easier session, like a long run with 8-10 at PMP?


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    #72
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    ger664 wrote: »
    You don't need to rest up before for a week, or take the next week off to recover.

    You might not have any choice about the second bit. Not taking the week off, but not being able for, or in a state where it is advisable to do, another hard session.


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    #73
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭ger664


    RayCun wrote: »
    You might not have any choice about the second bit. Not taking the week off, but not being able for, or in a state where it is advisable to do, another hard session.

    If you asked me that 6 weeks ago I would have totally agreed with you. But I got a massive benefit from running 16 miles the day after racing Dungarvan 10 miler. It hurt massively at the time but my legs have never been as strong since.


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    #74
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,497 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    menoscemo wrote: »
    I personally just don't agree with P&D when it comes to this stuff. I think you should be doing as many PMP miles as possible in the last 6-8 weeks; not racing 10ks and doing VO2max workouts.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've never completed the plan with the prescribed workouts, right? You skipped the vo2max because you were carrying niggles/injury?

    Personally I'd share the view that there is not enough marathon race type running in the last 6 weeks of the P&D plan, which is why I would add marathon pace sessions where I felt they fit in. You have to remember that P&D is a template; a starting point and you need to mould it to suit your own strengths and weaknesses.

    My own build up to my next marathon will likely be:
    14 weeks out: 16 miles with 8@marathon pace
    12 weeks out: 16 miles with 10@marathon pace
    10 weeks out: race a half marathon
    7 weeks out: half marathon race @ marathon pace
    5 weeks out: 18 miles with 15 miles @marathon pace (may not hot the numbers exactly), may be part of a 'kilomarathon race'
    3 weeks out: 20 miles with 15 miles @marathon pace

    I'll also likely include some shorter races (5k-10k), but that's largely to keep the motivation and interest levels up over a protracted period of high mileage hard training, and will not be run at 100%. The above is a mish-mash of P&D and JD and what seems to work for me.

    Looking through Jack Daniels latest book, he seems to be pushing the marathon pace stuff up to 2 x 16 miles @ marathon pace. Based on previous personal experience, 15 miles @marathon pace seems to be about my limit.


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    #75
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've never completed the plan with the prescribed workouts, right? You skipped the vo2max because you were carrying niggles/injury?

    I skipped them the first time when I was following the <55 mile plan, but I pretty much followed the 55>70 mpw plan to a tee a year later.


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    #76
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    RayCun wrote: »
    Yeah, I've been thinking about this (since Stazza's question). I've 9 weeks between half and full in spring, and will have 11/12 weeks between half/10 mile and marathon in the autumn. (But I will be using that time as a check on my marathon, setting an upper limit for the pace at various stages of the marathon)

    Hmmm... I don't even know if the plan calls for 13 miles at PMP... maybe it would be worth swapping in a half at PMP (plus warm-up) for an easier session, like a long run with 8-10 at PMP?

    I'd be more inclined to just race it 9 weeks out....you would still get a solid 8 week block of training in after the race???


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    #77
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Ah, I wasn't clear. I will be racing Bohermeen, and probably one of Frank Duffy 10/Rock and Roll half. But I might also run the race series half as a PMP run 5 weeks out from Dublin


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    #78
    BeepBeep67
    Registered Users Posts: 8,080 ✭✭✭BeepBeep67


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Looking through Jack Daniels latest book, he seems to be pushing the marathon pace stuff up to 2 x 16 miles @ marathon pace. Based on previous personal experience, 15 miles @marathon pace seems to be about my limit.

    I think I'd be in the 12 - 15 range for MP, anyway I normally only 17 miles at MP in 50% of my marathons anyway :pac:


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    #79
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,497 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    BeepBeep67 wrote: »
    I think I'd be in the 12 - 15 range for MP, anyway I normally only 17 miles at MP in 50% of my marathons anyway :pac:
    You're better off running a pseudo-marathon 5 weeks before the real event!


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    #80
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    RayCun wrote: »
    I've always thought of the "half marathon at marathon pace" as a bit of a cop-out. Anyone can run the first half of a marathon at their planned pace, and anyone can run a half marathon at that pace. The hard bit is keeping it up for the full distance. 21k at PMP will have the same physical effect on your own or in a race environment, but is psychologically much harder - so much better - if you run on your own.
    Thoughts?

    Its a good point. The mind needs to be hardened. But the mind hardening can be overdone also. Its a fine line, and mental fatigue and burnout is as big a culprit for scuppering marathons as its physical brother.

    We all have a limit to the amount of tough long runs the mind can take.

    For that reason I think that doing a good proportion of PMP miles in races can be a good thing (as other psoters have mentioned)

    So if mentally we can take say 2-3 hard PMP runs in a specific build up (without getting mentally burned out) but physically we can take 5-6, then the best solution might be to do 2-3 MP runs @ solo and 2-3 @ races.

    That way both the mind and body get maximally calloused to tough runs @ marathon effort.

    Also, long runs @ MP over 13 miles are psychologically very difficult to complete and would probably need to be done in a race environment.

    The lowering of psychological difficulty in sub 100% effort races can be a limiter sure but it can be an opportunity too.


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    #81
    viperlogic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭viperlogic


    Read the thread end to end and still unsure of the following....

    I'm following the P&D 18 week 55-70 plan, and looking to do a HM 4 weeks out from the marathon. P&D prescribes a tune-up race 2, 4, and 6 weeks out of 8-15K. Is a HM @ HM pace too much 4 weeks out? My take from this thread is that it is.

    Would an option be to do a HM but the first 3 miles easy and then the following 10 miles at 10M or HM pace?


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    #82
    viperlogic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭viperlogic


    viperlogic wrote: »
    Read the thread end to end and still unsure of the following....

    I'm following the P&D 18 week 55-70 plan, and looking to do a HM 4 weeks out from the marathon. P&D prescribes a tune-up race 2, 4, and 6 weeks out of 8-15K. Is a HM @ HM pace too much 4 weeks out? My take from this thread is that it is.

    Would an option be to do a HM but the first 3 miles easy and then the following 10 miles at 10M or HM pace?

    Have 99% decided to do a HM 7 weeks out which is the Tullamore HM on 30th August


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    #83
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,497 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    viperlogic wrote: »
    Have 99% decided to do a HM 7 weeks out which is the Tullamore HM on 30th August
    To be honest, you're better off. If you are racing a half marathon (and I mean properly racing a half-marathon, rather than using it as a session or marathon predictor (which is typically what I would do), then your legs should be in similar shape to the after effects of having run a full marathon. A properly raced half marathon should take 1-2 weeks of proper recovery, with no hard running/sessions. Doing this within 4-5 weeks of your goal marathon will likely be counter-productive as the recovery will impact your ability to train (over the final most important peak weeks) and you risk 'peaking' too early, if this is something that affects you as an individual.

    The half marathons I run during a marathon build-up tend to be either run at marathon pace, or chasing a PB. Probably at close to 95% effort, so I'm typically good to do a long run the next day or a workout a couple of days later (a good indicator that you didn't thrash yourself during the race).

    So if you're planning on thrashing yourself, 7 weeks out is a good idea. If using it as a tune-up race, you can get away with 5 weeks. If running at marathon pace, 2-3 weeks out would be fine.


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