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Boards 5k plan by debate

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  • 13-04-2014 10:41pm
    #1
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭


    Following on from a previous thread:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72532515

    Hasn't been a good training thread in a bit so I thought given that alot are turning to the shorter distances these days there may be some interest this sort of discussion.

    Main rules
    - Back up points with reasoning (doesn't have to be evidence simple why you feel would work etc)
    - Try to stick to one question at a time to prevent cross over discussion (as best possible)


    I will leave the first question open for anyone to start on


«1

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    #2
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    Question : How long should your long run be when training for the 5km distance?


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    #3
    drquirky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭drquirky


    adrian522 wrote: »
    Question : How long should your long run be when training for the 5km distance?

    At least 90 mins


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    #4
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    drquirky wrote: »
    At least 90 mins

    So would 90 mins be as much as you should do before it becomes counter productive? For me 90 Mins would be less than 9 miles at easy pace.


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    #5
    Stazza
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Stazza


    drquirky wrote: »
    At least 90 mins

    I tend to agree with this but I've been questioning this myself. Why do you need to go and run 90 mins at a slowish pace? Would you not benefit more by turning the 'long run' into some sort of session? Eg, instead of plodding around at whatever is the common Sunday morning pace, why not throw in 2x15 min Lactate Threshold or do 10x3 mins @ LT effort off 30 sec rec or maybe 8 miles @ high end aerobic pace/Aerobic Threshold? This way, you're still getting in the perfunctory 90mins but now you're getting a lot more out of the run. Then, take two days or whatever to recover and now, instead of doing what you did on Sunday, you can now hit another energy system.

    Just an idea...


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    #6
    Cona
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Cona


    I started looking at my 5k, shorter distance times a few months back as I wasn't really getting any faster. I was hovering around 21.30 for a 5k and I was suspecting my training to be the cause i.e too many easy runs and not improving my Vo2 max or lactate threshold. My mileage was around 30 - 35 miles per week with mostly easy running

    I googled 'how to run sub 20 5k' and came across the below link:
    http://the5krunner.com/2011/08/22/5k-sub-20-minute-5k-running-and-training-plan

    Basically its 3 exhausting exercises per week along with a long hard run of 90 minutes. Personally, these sessions have definitely helped me. I used to struggle to run a 6.45 interval mile while now I am running around 6 minutes flat (for one mile only). I expect my next attempt at sub 20 5k will come very close but I definitely expect to break it this summer


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    #7
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Stazza wrote: »
    I tend to agree with this but I've been questioning this myself. Why do you need to go and run 90 mins at a slowish pace? Would you not benefit more by turning the 'long run' into some sort of session? Eg, instead of plodding around at whatever is the common Sunday morning pace, why not throw in 2x15 min Lactate Threshold or do 10x3 mins @ LT effort off 30 sec rec or maybe 8 miles @ high end aerobic pace/Aerobic Threshold? This way, you're still getting in the perfunctory 90mins but now you're getting a lot more out of the run. Then, take two days or whatever to recover and now, instead of doing what you did on Sunday, you can now hit another energy system.

    Just an idea...
    Pretty much what's advocated by Magness (though he goes a little longer). Many of the runs have a little 'sumpin'. For example:
    14 miles with 6x30 sec surges
    14 miles with 5 mins pickup
    13 miles with strides

    Just adding 'anything' to the long run makes you focus on your pace a little more, rather than just plodding out the miles. When they're this duration, they don't have to be done slow either. They can be at steady pace (for me around threshold + 1 minute/mile),


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    #8
    Cona
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Cona


    What would you consider to be the best training workout to give an indicative time for a 5k?

    E.g 3 x 1m @ target race pace off 2 minute recovery


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    #9
    statss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭statss


    Out of interested Daniels has the longs runs in his 5k -10k plan (40-50mpw) in the new book as 120 minutes or 25% of weekly mileage, whichever is less.


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    #10
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    statss wrote: »
    Out of interested Daniels has the longs runs in his 5k -10k plan (40-50mpw) in the new book as 120 minutes or 25% of weekly mileage, whichever is less.

    10-12 miles, basically?


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    #11
    Stazza
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Stazza


    Cona wrote: »
    What would you consider to be the best training workout to give an indicative time for a 5k?

    E.g 3 x 1m @ target race pace off 2 minute recovery

    4x1600m off 90 secs walk/jog rec will tell you exactly where you are in terms of 5k fitness.


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    #12
    Sacksian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    It depends on whether your long run is one of your "quality" days.

    It's not one of mine but I do one because I like going for a longer easy run on a Sunday morning - I run it very, very easy.

    I'd sacrifice a dedicated "long run" day for something else if I was looking at how to structure my week for 5k training with 3 quality days. However, as others have suggested, there are programmes where it's more of a focus but, for me, it's just the bookend of the week.

    Also, in terms of the wider discussion, I don't think any single training element - in isolation - is fundamental to running a fast 5k. It will depend very much on your own preferences and the type of training you respond to (not everyone responds equally to the same type of training). I don't get a lot out of continuous tempos so I do longer intervals instead.

    In my experience, the key to running a good 5k is being used to running 5k effort comfortably. If I can do 16 x 400s smoothly with short rests (30s/45s) and be able to finish the last couple strongly, I know I'm in good nick.


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    #13
    Calvin Johnson
    Registered Users Posts: 572 ✭✭✭Calvin Johnson


    So there would be no point running 20 miles during a 5km training period?


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    #14
    AuldManKing
    Registered Users Posts: 5,236 ✭✭✭AuldManKing


    Question: How many weeks should the 5k training plan be for the following;

    (a) Just off a spring marathon and filling in time before next marathon cycle.
    (b) Specific dedicated 5k training (middle distance athletes &/or not doing Marathon)
    (c) Novice runners.

    Should they be different?

    Some people on here advocate the 'endless season' approach advocated by Joe Rubio, so just a bit of sharpening required - others like the structure of a specific 'longer' plan.
    Some advocate a total change in training stimulus at certain times in the year.


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    #15
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Calvin Johnson wrote: »
    So there would be no point running 20 miles during a 5km training period?
    Only for ritual self-abuse. ;)

    My ultimate goal is the marathon, so I included some longer runs during the base-training period of the plan (18-20 miles), but I can see it being counter-productive to other key sessions.


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    #16
    drquirky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭drquirky


    I'm a big fan of the "endless season" to make that work though you have to race a good bit. IMO a lot of people on boards don't race enough- I think 5k is perhaps the best distance to "race into shape" for.

    Build the base, run tempos, shorter,quicker reps and do an LSR every week. Race at least once every three weeks and you'll see big improvements - it honestly is fairly straightforward.

    Where a lot of people fall down is they run their sessions too fast, races too slow and don't pay attention to properly recovering. My 2 cents...


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    #17
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    drquirky wrote: »
    Where a lot of people fall down is they run their sessions too fast, races too slow and don't pay attention to properly recovering. My 2 cents...

    Particularity agree with this especially the recovery bit. We make the gains in recovery phase of training. Only recently woke up to this fact after review training log for the last 2 years. Times improved after the training load was reduced for a week or 2.

    My Plan now is to have a 5 week cycle 3 weeks high/hard mileage, week easy( mini taper) race and recovery week.


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    #18
    cianc
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭cianc


    drquirky wrote: »
    I'm a big fan of the "endless season" to make that work though you have to race a good bit.

    Got any good links/references? I've seen "endless season" mentioned a few times, and Google turns up some stuff, but is there a particular article you'd recommend?


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    #19
    Cona
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Cona


    In terms of 5k training, is there a particular plan that is highly rated or is it just a case of adding more speed work?


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    #20
    drquirky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭drquirky


    cianc wrote: »
    Got any good links/references? I've seen "endless season" mentioned a few times, and Google turns up some stuff, but is there a particular article you'd recommend?

    This is a good summary... IMO Rubio cuts through some of the overly technical stuff and it's a pretty old school approach in keeping w/ the Bowerman/ Billy Rodgers way of doing things-

    http://m.runnersworld.com/race-training/always-ready-race?page=single


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    #21
    Finnt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Finnt


    Stazza wrote: »
    4x1600m off 90 secs walk/jog rec will tell you exactly where you are in terms of 5k fitness.

    4x1600m at race pace?


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    #22
    drquirky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭drquirky


    Finnt wrote: »
    4x1600m at race pace?

    Yep- if you can hit 4x1600 @ planned 5k race pace you'll hit that in a race w/out the recovery.

    i.e I know if I hit avg 5:20 m/m for the session I'll be v. close to that in a 5k.


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    #23
    Finnt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Finnt


    How far out should you do it? A week or more?


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    #24
    clear thinking
    Registered Users Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    I made big progress in 2012 with a phased 5k plan, hit PB's in all over the shop. My idea was to have a change up from the usual marathon stuff, albeit there is still a lot of cross over.

    Base phase was 1 VO2 session a week, 1 LSR, 1 XC type race and plenty of strength work (coincided with winter but parkrun fits the bill)

    Second, aerobic phase was 2 VO2 sessions, 1 LSR, 1 XC race / hill session and 1 day only of gym / core

    Phase 3 was speed specific, 6 sessions a week, no LSR.
    Key was the under / over principle, more tailored to 3k or mile, however the endurance built up in earlier phases means it works for 5 k too and is a bit different, no LSR as you'd be knackered. I did this as a block of 4 weeks and in a second go in a block of 6 weeks.

    Day 1: Over: build to 13 miles @ LT tempo pace (i started at 5m)
    Day 2: Under: mile pace, 400m, 800m, 300m with 30s & 60s rest twice with a lap walk between the 2 sets.
    Day 3: Over: 90% VO2 max - v fast 10k (15s/mile quicker than day 1)
    Day 4: Under: 4*400, 3m rest @ mile pace less 4s per 400 - eg 5 min mile = 75s lap, so this session should be 4 * 71 second laps
    Day 5: 5*1k, 1m rest - w/in 5% of 5k race pace, or 4*1500/mile at same
    Day 7: race 800m, miles, 3ks, or speed session 350m, 300m, 250m, 200m, 150m with 400m walk in between.

    Clipped about 45s off my 5k pb and had a bonus 50s knocked off my 10k pb.


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    #25
    Finnt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Finnt


    I did the 4x1600m reps today, (well 4x1mile),
    Average was 6:44 for the 4, I should be in sub 21min shape?


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    #26
    slingerz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭slingerz


    Surely a 5k plan depends on the individual involved and their capabilities.

    I know that some of the plans thrown out here would be too much for a novice like myself.

    I think for someone who can finish a 5K but has a time greater than 25mins needs to have 5 runs a week with only 1 of them being a speed workout and 1 being a 'LSR' in order to build fitness and endurance. the other three outings so be pretty much recovery/easy runs in order to build stamina and enjoyment of running.

    once that phase is complete and the person has improved their times over a period of say 3 months then perhaps its worth tweaking the plan to include some more pace runs in there.


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    #27
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Finnt wrote: »
    I did the 4x1600m reps today, (well 4x1mile),
    Average was 6:44 for the 4, I should be in sub 21min shape?
    There are no certainties or guarantees, but like DrQ said, if I could manage 4 x 1 mile @5k, I'd be pretty confident of holding that pace for 5k.


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    #28
    drquirky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭drquirky


    Finnt wrote: »
    I did the 4x1600m reps today, (well 4x1mile),
    Average was 6:44 for the 4, I should be in sub 21min shape?

    Good session. How was the 4th rep? Any significant fading?


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    #29
    drquirky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭drquirky


    slingerz wrote: »
    Surely a 5k plan depends on the individual involved and their capabilities.

    I know that some of the plans thrown out here would be too much for a novice like myself.

    I think for someone who can finish a 5K but has a time greater than 25mins needs to have 5 runs a week with only 1 of them being a speed workout and 1 being a 'LSR' in order to build fitness and endurance. the other three outings so be pretty much recovery/easy runs in order to build stamina and enjoyment of running.

    once that phase is complete and the person has improved their times over a period of say 3 months then perhaps its worth tweaking the plan to include some more pace runs in there.

    Agreed....tbh novice runners will get faster just by running more!


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    #30
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    slingerz wrote: »
    Surely a 5k plan depends on the individual involved and their capabilities.
    Of course. That's why one should customize a plan to suit one's own needs. The purpose of this thread isn't to create custom plans for each individual, but rather to suggest specific sessions and a broad structure that will advance a runner towards the goal of achieving a solid 5k. You look at the advice, you take on board what you feel would be useful, and disregard anything that you feel is not in line with your current capability.


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    #31
    slingerz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭slingerz


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Of course. That's why one should customize a plan to suit one's own needs. The purpose of this thread isn't to create custom plans for each individual, but rather to suggest specific sessions and a broad structure that will advance a runner towards the goal of achieving a solid 5k. You look at the advice, you take on board what you feel would be useful, and disregard anything that you feel is not in line with your current capability.

    i agree with you totally i just wanted to clarify that some of those speed session look a bit intense to me as regards where I am now at the moment.

    I am looking at doing 6 months solid work around a 5K base which would include a few 5mile and 10K races in there too but ultimately the 5K PB time is the focus really.

    The long term hope is that I get to a base level that allows me to complete 10mile and half marathons without being overly worried about the distance involved and that will hopefully bring me forward to having a crack off a marathon at some point


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