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Ensuring staff take their holidays

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    #32
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Its illegal to have a use it or lose it policy re holidays. Totally illegal.

    IF. AN. EMPLOYEE. REFUSES. TO. TAKE. HOLIDAYS. THEY. DO. NOT. AUTOMATICALLY. GET. TO. CARRY. THEM. FORWARD.

    To take an example to clarify.

    Manager arranges with an office based employee to take his so far untaken 3 days statutory holidays between christmas day and new year. Holidays are written up on holiday roster. The manager is off for that particular week.

    However, the employee still comes in and works the full week.

    Is anyone in doubt that the employee cannot carry forward these 3 days and that the employee loses them?


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    #33
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,709 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Another option is to use peer pressure: announce to all employees that unless outstanding leave is booked by the start of September, you will be allocating days at your convenience and with no regard given to employee preferences. Your staff are not dumb, they will work out who might be the cause of this threat.

    The risk you have is that problem employee might turn around and call in sick on the days when you've booked them on annual leave. So if your sick leave is paid, this strategy won't work.

    In short, as an employer you have to be 100% polite at all times to the problem children - but yet incredible hard-ass in your dealings with them.

    Is there a union in your workplace? Could you suggest one to your staff? People think that unions are not welcomed by management, but in fact sometimes they can be very useful becasuse they don't have to be polite to people who are behaving lick dickheads. A union delegate can say things that a manager simply can't.


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    #34
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    smcgiff wrote: »
    IF. AN. EMPLOYEE. REFUSES. TO. TAKE. HOLIDAYS. THEY. DO. NOT. AUTOMATICALLY. GET. TO. CARRY. THEM. FORWARD.

    To take an example to clarify.

    Manager arranges with an office based employee to take his so far untaken 3 days statutory holidays between christmas day and new year. Holidays are written up on holiday roster. The manager is off for that particular week.

    However, the employee still comes in and works the full week.

    Is anyone in doubt that the employee cannot carry forward these 3 days and that the employee loses them?
    IMHO in the case you quote the employer should immediately proceed directly to the disciplinary procedure, because i would presume that if the business was being properly managed that this ridiculous standoff would only have occurred despite every effort on the employers side to inform the employee of his responsibilities regarding A/L. Despite these efforts the employee disregards orders and this is total insubordination and warrants severe penalties.


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    #35
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Regardless. Do you accept holidays can be lost due an employee not cooperating?


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    #36
    Bigcheeze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Bigcheeze


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Agreed. Now, who said such a thing?

    You did and you damn well know it. You had no idea that "use it or lose it" was illegal until others posted it on this thread.

    Yet in classic boardsie fashion you retrospectively justify your earlier post with straw man arguments.


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    #37
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Bigcheeze wrote: »
    You did and you damn well know it. You had no idea that "use it or lose it" was illegal until others posted it on this thread.

    Yet in classic boardsie fashion you retrospectively justify your earlier post with straw man arguments.

    Dear god - can people not put words into my mouth.

    I've stated it's incumbent on the company to manage the process. I have said people can lose holidays. I've never used such a crude phrase as use it or lose it.


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    #38
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Regardless. Do you accept holidays can be lost due an employee not cooperating?

    Yes I do. That employee would have little or no chance taking a case to the Rights Commissener. But i stand by my assertion that an employee who is as non compliant as you describe does not merely need to lose their A/L entitlement, disciplinary measures are essential.


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    #39
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,484 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Twowheelsonly,

    There are circumstances where if you don't use them you most certainly lose them. If an employer or their agent asks an employee for their holiday dates and if the employee doesn't engage (afte they've been notified of the legal position) or works the days off anyway. Then the employee 100% loses unused holidays not taken in a year.

    I had this conversation with an IBEC barrister and his take was that the employer should schedule an employee out on leave rather than take away leave. There is a potential lea gal issue of an employee say were injured and haddent been on leave in a long period and perhaps was refused leave at some stage. Mental fatigue could also become an issue.
    It's best make them take the time off than risk any issue down the road. Yes, this is a lot of ass covering, but that's what managers must do.


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    #40
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Would the OPs company consider actually closing for 2 weeks in the summer if as they say, business is very quiet?it can be a very good idea.


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    #41
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    _Brian wrote: »
    I had this conversation with an IBEC barrister and his take was that the employer should schedule an employee out on leave rather than take away leave. There is a potential lea gal issue of an employee say were injured and haddent been on leave in a long period and perhaps was refused leave at some stage. Mental fatigue could also become an issue.
    It's best make them take the time off than risk any issue down the road. Yes, this is a lot of ass covering, but that's what managers must do.

    Yes, the OP may possibly need to go down this route. And, it's never about taking away leave. It's whether or not the employee avails of the leave within the peroid.


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    #42
    and other disasters
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭and other disasters


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Would the OPs company consider actually closing for 2 weeks in the summer if as they say, business is very quiet?it can be a very good idea.

    Unfortunately we can't due to other issues, we stay open even if we're quiet. We do close for around 2 weeks over the Christmas/New Year period, which this employee takes issue with as they are an atheist. Nevertheless we do enforce the closure and everyone is off for that 2 week period.

    As an aside I used the 'use it or lose it' analogy in one of my first posts. Apologies if that caused some offence. A few years ago I worked in the public service and had a colleague who for whatever reason never, ever took holiday days. Every January our boss would go to her and say she needed to take all of the previous year's entitlement by April, and that if she hadn't submitted her leave plans by the end of January they would allocate her the time off anyway. She/They would schedule time out and then she would randomly show up halfway through the day/week, saying she would work without clocking in so it looked on the time system like she was out on holiday.

    She would invariably lose some of her entitlement every year beyond this simply because she refused to schedule the remainder of her leave days/adhere to the leave schedule she was given but I could not say either way about whether it was her statutory days or merely those in excess of her entitlement she was losing.


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    #43
    LynnGrace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭LynnGrace


    One company I worked in used the leave sheet, as described upthread, with senior people first, and so on. Everyone booked their main two weeks, first time around, and then it went around again. It worked quite well.


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    #44
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,709 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    OP, one more thought for you: can you chance the leave-year so it doesn't end in December, but instead ends in a period where someone can have the last month off? You would need a transition period, of course, and it seems a bit drastic if there is only one problem employee, but it may be an option.


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