S05E07 - The Gift - Have READ the books

Mr Freeze · 26-05-2015 12:24pm

Liam O wrote: »

I reckon Loras trial by combat, which exonerates Marge and Cersei takes the mother's punishment that the high sparrow talked of. Which involves going through town in the nip.

In the books didn't Margery just go for a normal Trial? Which made her look innocent or not as guilty as Cersei looks when she goes for trial by combat.

Nody · 26-05-2015 12:31pm

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Was the wargging ever confirmed in the book? I'm still not sure I buy it to be honest.

He was confirmed as a shapeshifter in the books by other shapeshifter who hated him (can't recall his name, seven something I think) and he had his dreams when he was in his direwolf's mind hunting etc.

Sleepy · 26-05-2015 12:35pm

Liam O wrote: »

I reckon Loras trial by combat, which exonerates Marge and Cersei takes the mother's punishment that the high sparrow talked of. Which involves going through town in the nip.

Loras v Lancel?

Stone Deaf 4evr · 26-05-2015 12:56pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Loras v Lancel?

lancel was a squire at best, loras would annihilate him in single combat.

Sleepy · 26-05-2015 1:09pm

Yep, but the writers can hardly send Loras up against the mountain (who no-one knows about bar Cersei who's in a cell and Qyburn who's unlikely to offer assistance to the High Septon). The poor fellows and the Warriors Sons seem to have been merged in the series and we've not been introduced to any of them bar Lancel who has considerably bulked up since we last saw him as something of a fop in Season 2...

Who else is there for Loras to fight?

I'm presuming that Loras must win any trial by combat as he still seems to have a role in the books as does Margaery... Could be wrong though, maybe they'll all be killed in the series forcing Kevan Lannister to return to Kings Landing to guide Tommen's rule?

Bogsnorkler · 26-05-2015 1:26pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Yep, but the writers can hardly send Loras up against the mountain (who no-one knows about bar Cersei who's in a cell and Qyburn who's unlikely to offer assistance to the High Septon). The poor fellows and the Warriors Sons seem to have been merged in the series and we've not been introduced to any of them bar Lancel who has considerably bulked up since we last saw him as something of a fop in Season 2...

Who else is there for Loras to fight?

Perhaps another character who's recently seen the light of the Seven?

Last seen working in a monastery?

Popular character unseen this season so far?

Hyzepher · 26-05-2015 2:04pm

Jofspring wrote: »

Fighting pits were disappointing if that's all we will see of them. Thought it would be a big fight similar to that of Roman fights in the Colosseum.

Pretty sure they weren't the fighting pits but some sort of audition for the fighting pits that happen in local towns. She was just there as part of some tradition.

Turtyturd · 26-05-2015 2:07pm

In terms of story quality and production quality, the further south the show goes the worse it gets. The wall and Winterfell stuff is head and shoulders above anything else and maintaining the grim, gritty feel and quality of the earlier seasons.

Kings Landing is so-so, while Dorne is just like another show completely. The scene with Bronn probably would have been the worst of the show if not for last weeks fight scene.

I am glad to see Ramsey has toned down the overacting a bit. He never really fit with the tone of the show, and his facial expressions were like something from a game of thrones comedy sketch. He seems much more menacing now.

Was good to see Ghost. I thought his absence was intentional to create a shock moment after Jon gets stabbed. I am still back and forth about Jon's death. I think with Ollie scowling at him/the camera 3times per episode it will follow the books fairly closely, however there was something that was said last week that had me leaning towards the theory of him coming back

as a wight

.

I also think people are going ott with the criticism of the changes. For the first four seasons the original material was there so people could see how it was simplified to fit the show. Now people have no comparison so are just slating the show for being too simple.

Sleepy · 26-05-2015 2:22pm

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

Perhaps another character who's recently seen the light of the Seven?

Last seen working in a monastery?

Popular character unseen this season so far?

We haven't seen him in the monastery in the TV show so I think it's unlikely... besides, if Sandor reappears to fight Loras, who's going to win Cleganebowl?

Also, Sandor v Loras could only ever have one winner and it would result in the deaths of both Loras and Margaery Tyrell which I can't see the showrunners going with. It'd leave Olenna as the only member left of her family that we've really been introduced to and would surely see the Tyrell army destroy Kings Landing while routing the faith millitant.

FunLover18 · 26-05-2015 2:33pm

Taboola wrote:

I actually thought that he was going to light the candle but didn't and confessed when he saw Ramsey.

I had assumed that Theon had gone to the light the candle but Ramsey was always aware of Sansa's friends and was waiting for whoever showed up. Clearly I was wrong though

3qsmavrod5twfe · 26-05-2015 2:53pm

Nody wrote: »

He was confirmed as a shapeshifter in the books by other shapeshifter who hated him (can't recall his name, seven something I think) and he had his dreams when he was in his direwolf's mind hunting etc.

I think yer man's name was Varamyr Sixskins.They've never really broached the subject of any of the other Stark kids having a bit of warg in them in the show, even though there have been plenty of opportunity for wolf dreams for Arya and Jon given they have already shown it with Bran.

I'm not exactly sure how they will reconcile the Jon stabbing, but I guess that is yet to be seen in the books. In the books I can see him warging into Ghost as it has been alluded to that that would be "a second life fit for a King" and given Jon's parentage (well is there anyone out there who doesn't believe R+L=J) that fits. Mel is gone from the wall in both the show and the book so I can't see her resurrecting him. All I can really guess for the show is a Coldhands type situation where he is a sentient wight - but you have to feel if they were going to bring in undead that aren't mindless killers like the wights seen so far we would have got a bit of Lady Stoneheart.

Mormegil · 26-05-2015 3:00pm

Salvador Happy Rank wrote: »

I think yer man's name was Varamyr Sixskins.They've never really broached the subject of any of the other Stark kids having a bit of warg in them in the show, even though there have been plenty of opportunity for wolf dreams for Arya and Jon given they have already shown it with Bran.

I'm not exactly sure how they will reconcile the Jon stabbing, but I guess that is yet to be seen in the books. In the books I can see him warging into Ghost as it has been alluded to that that would be "a second life fit for a King" and given Jon's parentage (well is there anyone out there who doesn't believe R+L=J) that fits. Mel is gone from the wall in both the show and the book so I can't see her resurrecting him. All I can really guess for the show is a Coldhands type situation where he is a sentient wight - but you have to feel if they were going to bring in undead that aren't mindless killers like the wights seen so far we would have got a bit of Lady Stoneheart.

Mel is still at the Wall in the books (along with Shireen and her mother).

Her Magic is more powerful at the Wall than elsewhere so she stays there.

Casting Spoiler

Varamyr Sixskins should be appearing in this season so they may yet have him recognise Jon as a Warg.

Stone Deaf 4evr · 26-05-2015 3:41pm

Mormegil wrote: »

Mel is still at the Wall in the books (along with Shireen and her mother).

Her Magic is more powerful at the Wall than elsewhere so she stays there.

Casting Spoiler
Varamyr Sixskins should be appearing in this season so they may yet have him recognise Jon as a Warg.

I always thought that it was the guy that starred in the UK office that recognised that john was a warg? he was there when he went north and spied on the wildlings? used to control an eagle?

Stone Deaf 4evr · 26-05-2015 3:42pm

Also,

if cersei goes to trial by combat - that could be an opportunity to reintroduce the mountain to stand as her champion, and the hound for the sparrows.

3qsmavrod5twfe · 26-05-2015 3:44pm

Mormegil wrote: »

Mel is still at the Wall in the books (along with Shireen and her mother).

Her Magic is more powerful at the Wall than elsewhere so she stays there.

I stand corrected.

Mr Freeze · 26-05-2015 3:47pm

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

I always thought that it was the guy that starred in the UK office that recognised that john was a warg? he was there when he went north and spied on the wildlings? used to control an eagle?

That was Orell. He was a warg too, wargged into his eagle.

Varamyr wargs into forest animals, like Bears and Wolves.

Mormegil · 26-05-2015 4:03pm

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

I always thought that it was the guy that starred in the UK office that recognised that john was a warg? he was there when he went north and spied on the wildlings? used to control an eagle?

I think IIRC there could be a look that Orell gives Jon that maybe he recognises what he is but I don't believe there is an outright statement.

Jon is certainly not listed as a Warg on the GoT Wiki.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 26-05-2015 4:10pm

Thought that was one of the stronger episodes this season. Lena Headey should enter the smirk Olympics, she's fecking class.

Liam Cunningham talked about a scene he has I think next week, said it was one of the most shocking he can remember on the show. I'd interpreted that as he and Stannis reaching Winterfell and coming across Sansa in the middle of the Jeyne Poole arc,

that doesn't seem likely now but it could well be Shireen getting burned.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 26-05-2015 4:18pm

Don't think they'll burn a child alive on screen.

Nody · 26-05-2015 4:18pm

Mormegil wrote: »

I think IIRC there could be a look that Orell gives Jon that maybe he recognises what he is but I don't believe there is an outright statement.

Jon is certainly not listed as a Warg on the GoT Wiki.

Jon Snow: Varamyr Sixskins notes that Jon Snow is a strong skinchanger, but untrained in and unaware of his true abilities; he had known what Jon was the moment he saw the great white direwolf Ghost stalking silent at his side. Jon's ability has manifested few times, as he slipped into Ghost while scouting for wildlings with Qhorin Halfhand. Through Ghost's eyes, he spies on the wildling horde. When an eagle attacks Ghost, Jon wakes screaming.

Taken from here and is aligned with the book; the fact he's not actively doing it does not change the fact he is one

Turtyturd · 26-05-2015 4:19pm

Salvador Happy Rank wrote: »

I'm not exactly sure how they will reconcile the Jon stabbing, but I guess that is yet to be seen in the books. In the books I can see him warging into Ghost as it has been alluded to that that would be "a second life fit for a King" and given Jon's parentage (well is there anyone out there who doesn't believe R+L=J) that fits. Mel is gone from the wall in both the show and the book so I can't see her resurrecting him. All I can really guess for the show is a Coldhands type situation where he is a sentient wight - but you have to feel if they were going to bring in undead that aren't mindless killers like the wights seen so far we would have got a bit of Lady Stoneheart.

I think this will be the final excursion beyond the wall in the show and I wouldn't be surprised to have them encounter the Night King which will demonstrate that they aren't just mindless killers.

I think they will reconcile the stabbing with both Stannis and Jon dying around the same time, his wife giving Melisandre the go ahead to sacrifice Shirreen to resurrect Stannis but the blood magic resurrecting Jon instead.

duploelabs · 26-05-2015 5:06pm

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Don't think they'll burn a child alive on screen.

Was implied with Theon's actions previously

Sleepy · 26-05-2015 5:30pm

Turtyturd wrote: »

I think this will be the final excursion beyond the wall in the show and I wouldn't be surprised to have them encounter the Night King which will demonstrate that they aren't just mindless killers.

I think they will reconcile the stabbing with both Stannis and Jon dying around the same time, his wife giving Melisandre the go ahead to sacrifice Shirreen to resurrect Stannis but the blood magic resurrecting Jon instead.

That could be a rather neat way to do it in the show tbh.

Mormegil · 26-05-2015 5:49pm

Nody wrote: »

Taken from here and is aligned with the book; the fact he's not actively doing it does not change the fact he is one

That's from the book. No one is denying Jon is a Warg/Skinchanger in the book.

I was replying to the Poster who believed Orell had said Jon was a Warg on the show.

Which he hasn't been identified as yet. My original spoiler makes the point that this might change later this season.

3qsmavrod5twfe · 26-05-2015 6:18pm

Turtyturd wrote: »

I think they will reconcile the stabbing with both Stannis and Jon dying around the same time, his wife giving Melisandre the go ahead to sacrifice Shirreen to resurrect Stannis but the blood magic resurrecting Jon instead.

If we were theorizing the book here I would denounce you as crazy, but the fact that this is the show, I'll give you that! It is probably what'll happen. :pac:

Standman · 26-05-2015 6:27pm

stankratz wrote: »

From Reddit regarding that last scene:

I like that he and the High Sparrow must have gone over when Lancel would make his dramatic entrance. "When I say the thing about how much you had to say, then you come in. Not before! I've got a whole thing about how old and awesome this place is."

Yea I was wondering about that. Same thing when Cersei walks towards the door to leave, a nun opens it from the other side to stop her at that exact second. Must have been peeping through the cracks in the wood.

A good bit of this episode felt a bit rushed and lazy.

At the wall when Gilly gets accosted by the 2 guys, Sam just bursts in with his hand on his sword before he's even seen anything. Also ghost conveniently appearing and then disappearing when he's not needed for the scene anymore - just ran back outside I suppose.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 26-05-2015 6:31pm

Standman wrote: »

Yea I was wondering about that. Same thing when Cersei walks towards the door to leave, a nun opens it from the other side to stop her at that exact second. Must have been peeping through the cracks in the wood.

A good bit of this episode felt a bit rushed and lazy.

At the wall when Gilly gets accosted by the 2 guys, Sam just bursts in with his hand on his sword before he's even seen anything. Also ghost conveniently appearing and then disappearing when he's not needed for the scene anymore - just ran back outside I suppose.

A lot of that scene felt kind of lazy and TV-tropesy to me. Sam going "oh no I'm fine" and then immediately doing a comedy faint is like something from a daytime sitcom. Cutting straight to some wounded soldier fantasy then? I seriously can't imagine things like that happening in the first season

MrWalsh · 26-05-2015 8:41pm

I enjoyed the episode overall but generally speaking I think the combination of convenient things happening (Ghost showing up when he did, Sam showing up when he did for that matter), characters doing strange nonsensical things (what was the point of the sand snake poisoning Bronn only to seduce him and give him an antidote in prison?), underutilisation of interesting actors, Mance Rayder, Prince Doran as two examples, and many book deviations just not as layered a story as they could be, all conspiring to make the season feel a bit flat for me.

Ramsay Bolton has to be one of the worst actors in the show. I just don't believe him. He is comical rather than sinister.

I'm still enjoying it but I think it's lessening a bit in quality as time goes on.

Ave Sodalis · 26-05-2015 9:09pm

Turtyturd wrote: »

I think they will reconcile the stabbing with both Stannis and Jon dying around the same time, his wife giving Melisandre the go ahead to sacrifice Shirreen to resurrect Stannis but the blood magic resurrecting Jon instead.

I'm not sure. With the way the non book part of the show is going, they've been making stuff blaringly obvious before it happens. With that in mind, I think Olly is going to kill him. They are randomly focusing on him quite a bit these last two episodes.

ItsChecoTime · 26-05-2015 10:26pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

Ramsay Bolton has to be one of the worst actors in the show. I just don't believe him. He is comical rather than sinister.

Completely disagree. Iwan Rheon (Ramsay) and Alfie Allen's (Theon) acting has been absolutely brilliant this season. Ramsay is completely psychotic which may be construed as comedic sometimes but I think Iwan Rheon is doing a fantastic job of depicting Ramsay

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 26-05-2015 10:34pm

Ive found Alfie Allen to be a wee bit OTT and "face acty" from time to time this season (thought he was great up til now and in fairness Reek is a hard role), but I think Iwan is nailing it. It's a good call to have Ramsey be some bit entertaining and charismatic, makes him a bit scarier too, imo.

Hans Bricks · 26-05-2015 10:44pm

I think Shireen is doomed at this stage. I seem to remember a clip of her mother front side down on the snow looking forward with tears in her eyes.

LionelNashe · 26-05-2015 10:53pm

I don't think that prince's blood is needed for resurrecting people - the guy in the forest was resurrected a few times by Thorros of Myr without any human sacrifice needed

FunLover18 · 26-05-2015 11:04pm

I'm not a fan of TV Ramsey either, I don't hate him but for me he's nowhere near as scary as he was in the books where everytime I read his name I'd be afraid of what he was going to do. That may be because we always saw him through Reek's POV in the books, which is difficult to so on Tv. In the series I just amn't really afraid of him or right he might do. He's just Joffrey 2.0.

johnnyskeleton · 27-05-2015 12:08am

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Don't think they'll burn a child alive on screen.

Its ok. Its GOT. She'll come back as Miss. Stoneheart. Or stonearm. Or something

3qsmavrod5twfe · 27-05-2015 8:47am

Chandler Grumpy Pointlessly wrote: »

Ive found Alfie Allen to be a wee bit OTT and "face acty" from time to time this season (thought he was great up til now and in fairness Reek is a hard role)

When you think of the shift that he has had to make from playing Theon - the swaggering prick that is running round the place stuffing his paws down the front of his sister's pants - to Theon the cowed boy looking for Balon's approval - to Reek the broken man, you have to give it to Alfie Allen, he has done it pretty well. He's is doing a great job of playing meek and subservient. I can't think of any other way he should play it other than by cringing and cowering, you do get a feeling he is genuinely scared of Ramsey

MrWalsh · 27-05-2015 9:08am

ItsChecoTime wrote: »

Completely disagree. Iwan Rheon (Ramsay) and Alfie Allen's (Theon) acting has been absolutely brilliant this season. Ramsay is completely psychotic which may be construed as comedic sometimes but I think Iwan Rheon is doing a fantastic job of depicting Ramsay

Tbh I haven't enjoyed Ramsay since he first appeared on screen. I find him a bit too pantomime theatrical. It's rare that I find a depiction on the show to be totally "off" with my mental image but I'm afraid tv Ramsay just doesn't do it for me at all. I'm enjoying Theon alright but I think he is just a better actor.

Hyzepher · 27-05-2015 10:12am

Tyrion could do wonders for Meereen in terms of diplomacy etc but I fear Daenery won't trust him - especially since Jorah was the one to bring him to her.

If she is up to date with the goings on in Kings Landing then he's not really much use to her. Varys may arrive and put her straight but I'm not sure she'd trust him either

razorblunt · 27-05-2015 11:50am

Chandler Grumpy Pointlessly wrote: »

A lot of that scene felt kind of lazy and TV-tropesy to me. Sam going "oh no I'm fine" and then immediately doing a comedy faint is like something from a daytime sitcom. Cutting straight to some wounded soldier fantasy then? I seriously can't imagine things like that happening in the first season

Good point, the OH is into Penny Dreadful at the minute and I noticed The Following was still going as it was on after it, one of the reasons I gave up on the show is that someone always arrived right on cue to save the day before a character was endangered. Very "american".

kellso81 · 27-05-2015 1:09pm

I think Iwan Rheon has been great the past two seasons but his reputation has suffered since that stupid clown face he pulled while wiggling the sausage in that ubiquitous gif from a couple of years back. I still can't get past it

Riskymove · 27-05-2015 1:19pm

Chandler Grumpy Pointlessly wrote: »

A lot of that scene felt kind of lazy and TV-tropesy to me. Sam going "oh no I'm fine" and then immediately doing a comedy faint is like something from a daytime sitcom. Cutting straight to some wounded soldier fantasy then? I seriously can't imagine things like that happening in the first season

sadly I fear there is much more to come and could really put the whole thing in jeopardy

the leaving of the book stories to the screenwriters is a real concern

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 27-05-2015 4:53pm

Salvador Happy Rank wrote: »

When you think of the shift that he has had to make from playing Theon - the swaggering prick that is running round the place stuffing his paws down the front of his sister's pants - to Theon the cowed boy looking for Balon's approval - to Reek the broken man, you have to give it to Alfie Allen, he has done it pretty well. He's is doing a great job of playing meek and subservient. I can't think of any other way he should play it other than by cringing and cowering, you do get a feeling he is genuinely scared of Ramsey

Oh don't get me wrong, I think he's very good, he's got probably one of the trickiest arcs in the whole thing to do convincingly and by and large he's doing it very well. In the first couple of seasons I think he was actually one of the more underrated actors. This might sound kind of weird and nitpicky but it's mostly in his close-ups that he bugs me. I don't know if anyone's listened to the DVD commentaries for Season 1, but there's one episode where the Stark kids are doing it; they keep being amazed at Sean Bean and going "how is he doing that?? He's acting without moving his face!", I just kind of wish Alfie could dial it back to that sort of thing sometimes when the camera's on his face. Probably as much a matter of taste as anything.

Gunslinger92 · 27-05-2015 4:53pm

Someone said a few pages back that they are confused with all the changes, for anyone in that position, ign do great little explainers of differences between each episode and the book. Googling "ign game of thrones differences" brings it up.

I've found them very handy as it's been ages since I read the books, and I've often been sitting there thinking "wait, is this different or what" so checking these explainers have been great.

MrWalsh · 27-05-2015 4:55pm

Gunslinger92 wrote: »

I've found them very handy as it's been ages since I read the books, and I've often being sitting there thinking "wait, is this different or what" so checking these explainers have been great.

I often find myself not remembering where a character story arc is at currently - I actually looked up Cersei today because I couldnt remember what was going on there.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 27-05-2015 4:58pm

Riskymove wrote: »

sadly I fear there is much more to come and could really put the whole thing in jeopardy

the leaving of the book stories to the screenwriters is a real concern

I know, I still think it can probably get to the end being a reasonably good TV show, but it's already nowhere near where it was in the first couple of seasons when they had everything mapped out for them in the books. Giant CGI statues toppling down pyramids and stuff like that, I could live without, I'd rather the writing (both overall plotting and within the scenes) stayed as tight and fresh as it started out.

Mickeroo · 27-05-2015 5:00pm

Chandler Grumpy Pointlessly wrote: »

I know, I still think it can probably get to the end being a reasonably good TV show, but it's already nowhere near where it was in the first couple of seasons when they had everything mapped out for them in the books. Giant CGI statues toppling down pyramids and stuff like that, I could live without, I'd rather the writing (both overall plotting and within the scenes) stayed as tight and fresh as it started out.

Unfortunately I think the muddled nature of the last two books were always going to prevent that, adapting them for TV was always going to be difficult though I agree there's been some poor choices made by the show runners.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 27-05-2015 5:04pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Unfortunately I think the muddled nature of the last two books were always going to prevent that, adapting them for TV was always going to be difficult though I agree there's been some poor choices made by the show runners.

In fairness yes. At the very least I'm glad we basically get a do-over of the Meereenese Knot stuff, because..ugh.

Hans Bricks · 27-05-2015 8:36pm

I think were in for some serious cliffhangers and a mindfuck or two in this season's finale. Look at that cast.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3866862/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

tipparetops · 27-05-2015 10:47pm

Another bad episode, some truly bizarre acting and scenes.
Some people will say it is slowly building, if it was that I would not mind.
Ramsay is very pantomime, hes treatment of Sansa makes absolute no sense, and because of this is annoying to watch.
The poison scene was dreadful to watch.
The fighting pits and the lead up to it was beyond cheesy.
As another poster said, Sam's faint - dreadful acting and writing.

This season is testing me.

Liam O · 27-05-2015 11:11pm

tipparetops wrote: »

Another bad episode, some truly bizarre acting and scenes.
Some people will say it is slowly building, if it was that I would not mind.
Ramsay is very pantomime, hes treatment of Sansa makes absolute no sense, and because of this is annoying to watch.
The poison scene was dreadful to watch.
The fighting pits and the lead up to it was beyond cheesy.
As another poster said, Sam's faint - dreadful acting and writing.

This season is testing me.

I think the season started ok, lost itself a bit in some parts of eps 4, 5 and 6 and the last episode was ok. I've stopped caring about differences to the books somewhat but a lot of the writing is terrible. There's no reason they couldn't have introduced the sand snakes 1 by 1 as was a very clever device in the book reading over it again to give them some personality but just throwing them at us in the middle of a season all at once was a bit of a wtf moment. Characters from previous seasons not mentioned, others doing nothing of note. They''ve just written themselves into a load of corners that are going to be hard to get out of.

S05E07 - The Gift - Have READ the books

Comments