Cross on summit of Carrauntoohil cut down with angle grinder (Warning: contains TLAs)

kandoola · 30-11-2014 11:44am

Cabaal wrote: »

Yeah, yeah you're right those Catholics don't have an affect on daily life

It's not like none Catholics can be refused entry to state funded schools because they are not Catholic, gay nurses can be fired from state funded hospitals for being gay or certain medical treatment can be denied being made available because it goes against religious ethos in state funded hospitals.

All these things are on religious grounds,

You think it's live and let live? If you do then you're fooling yourself as Catholic ethos is used to deny equal rights and treatment.

They don't believe in live and let live, which is ironic as they preach peace and love,

My child is in a state funded school. There was no problem at all.

I know at least two gay nurses. One male and one female. Both working in public hospitals. They havent been fired and everyone they know, knows they are gay.

I think you are looking for problems where there arent any.

lazybones32 · 30-11-2014 11:49am

fisgon wrote: »

The fact is that erecting a religious symbol in any place is an attempt to claim ownership.

It has been established that the Mountain is owned by 4 farmers.

fisgon wrote: »

We put religious symbols on religious places, if you place a religious symbol in a non-religious setting, what you are clearly saying is "this is ours". Especially putting it on top of a mountain, so it can be seen from a long distance, it is an attempt in some way to claim ownership of the mountain, and the surrounding area for one particular belief system.

This wasn't a decision by the RCC. It was the initiative of the people of M. Reeks and Beaufort, using steel donated by Liebherr.
The 15ft cross isn't visible from the base of the 3,400ft Mountain or from any approach.

Molester Stallone II · 30-11-2014 11:57am

lazybones32 wrote: »

It has been established that the Mountain is owned by 4 farmers.

This wasn't a decision by the RCC. It was the initiative of the people of M. Reeks and Beaufort, using steel donated by Liebherr.
The 15ft cross isn't visible from the base of the 3,400ft Mountain or from any approach.

On the ownership front, yes, it remains in the hands of the farmers, but the upkeep and maintainace of the mountain is provided by KCC and development projects.
There are also calls for security and cameras to be installed to protect the cross, so at this stage I think the charade of private ownership is well and truly out the window.
If farmers and locals want the cross, then they should pick up the tab for the works on the mountain from now on

Pro Hoc Vice · 30-11-2014 11:59am

kandoola wrote: »

My child is in a state funded school. There was no problem at all.

I know at least two gay nurses. One male and one female. Both working in public hospitals. They havent been fired and everyone they know, knows they are gay.

I think you are looking for problems where there arent any.

So you have never seen or heard anything so therefore it must not happen.

In Ireland religious ethos business are exempt from equality law that's plan and simply wrong.

The argument you use is the same as up to the 90's we know it's criminal but sure no one ever charged. To keep a situation that allows discrimination is plain and simply wrong it does not matter if it has not effected you and yours.

To say there is no problem is insulting to all who have been on the receiving end of State and Church bigotry.

http://www.thejournal.ie/gay-teachers-homophobia-1319137-Sep2014/

http://www.thejournal.ie/lgbt-legislation-jobs-815578-Mar2013/

http://changingattitudeireland.org/news-blog/in-the-press/irish-times-ireland-is-continuing-to-fail-its-gay-teachers-in-the-classroom/

Brian Shanahan · 30-11-2014 12:00pm

kylith wrote: »

Not everyone does. I don't, for a start. I would be unlikely to celebrate them regardless of what they were called.

I'd even argue with the claim that Ireland is a mainly Christian country. 80% might have put Catholic on the census, but 10% of them don't even believe in god, and only 34% go to mass. Which works out at (forgive me if my maths is wrong, it's 1am) 27% of the country being practising Catholics. Not a majority by any stretch of the imagination. The census question should really be 'What religion are you a practising member of'.

Actually those figures are wrong. First of all 80% don't identify as catholics, because it is a census figure, and censuses in Ireland are fraught with errors and biases (for example mostmammies fill out the census as if their student and working children are still living at home, and tick catlick even when they know the kids are not. The same inflation can be seen with Irish, supposedly half the country speak it.

Second the 10% non-belief is not in the 80% but in the core weekly mass going demographic, which is about 10%, lower than the already low 34% of occasional mass goer you are quoting. The true figure for non belief is going to be higher, especially if you factorin the true agnostics who don't know and frankly don't care.

I'd put the proper catholic figure at about 25%, non-believers at about 30%, and a seperste cultural catholic group (don't actually believe but are afraid to lose the comfort of group belonging) at another 30%, out of the census "figure" of 85%.

kandoola · 30-11-2014 12:06pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So you have never seen or heard anything so therefore it must not happen.

In Ireland religious ethos business are exempt from equality law that's plan and simply wrong.

The argument you use is the same as up to the 90's we know it's criminal but sure no one ever charged. To keep a situation that allows discrimination is plain and simply wrong it does not matter if it has not effected you and yours.

Feel free to point out where ANY gay nurses are getting fired for being gay and where ANY child will not being allowed to go to school based on their religion.

If we can keep the examples to this century that would be good too.
And please post example of it actually happening instead of it could happen. Sure they good become astronauts and walk on the moon some day too, but its as unlikely.
And the people in those articles problems stem from bigotry, not religion. That can happen in any workplace / town / school in the world.
Thats a problem of society. They arent going to be fired for being gay.

But to go back to the topic. Im sure a cross on a hill isnt going to hurt gay nurses or teacher or even children going to school either.

weisses · 30-11-2014 12:08pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Ok so, but clearly these people identify themselves as Catholic on the census... Not Christian.

That was not the point I was making I even gave an example being christian doesn't automatically means being catholic

Cabaal wrote: »

Yet many don't believe a god exists, don't believe the eating Jesus bit and certainly have no interest in listening or reading any sort of scriptures. I doubt they even own bibles.

And you are entitled to your opinion ...Figures however say otherwise

weisses · 30-11-2014 12:26pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Not everyone sees crosses as wholesome icons.

To many it represents a history obsession, death, oppression and rape. It's a icon used by a deeply backward organisation that continuous to cause needless deaths throughout the world, allowed criminals to go unpunished and is happy to openly advertise that they see half the world's population as simply inferior. Not to mention that they are happy to deny many equal rights.

The oppression of the religion that uses the cross as its icon in ireland continuous to this day in ireland towards children in this country and our health case system.

It's not an icon of hope to everyone,

Most of these ugly mountain crosses were put up in the catholuc religious year in the 1950s, they represent the Catholic Church.

Nice wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_cross

I agree with the part where you say its an "History" obsession

All the anger... What is next kicking over and trembling crosses by the side of the road remembering loved ones who died .... Just for the reasons you gave above? ...... sad society we are living in then

gleesonger · 30-11-2014 12:30pm

kandoola wrote: »

Feel free to point out where ANY gay nurses are getting fired for being gay and where ANY child will not being allowed to go to school based on their religion.

If we can keep the examples to this century that would be good too.
And please post example of it actually happening instead of it could happen. Sure they good become astronauts and walk on the moon some day too, but its as unlikely.

I have to agree with this, this topic and the comments have become ridiculous, Godwin's law is soon to proven true.

Everybody, Irregardless of beliefs should condem the act of a single person conducting such a serious acts of vandalism, else anarchy will be the way of things.

kylith · 30-11-2014 12:46pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Actually those figures are wrong. First of all 80% don't identify as catholics, because it is a census figure, and censuses in Ireland are fraught with errors and biases (for example mostmammies fill out the census as if their student and working children are still living at home, and tick catlick even when they know the kids are not. The same inflation can be seen with Irish, supposedly half the country speak it.

Second the 10% non-belief is not in the 80% but in the core weekly mass going demographic, which is about 10%, lower than the already low 34% of occasional mass goer you are quoting. The true figure for non belief is going to be higher, especially if you factorin the true agnostics who don't know and frankly don't care.

I'd put the proper catholic figure at about 25%, non-believers at about 30%, and a seperste cultural catholic group (don't actually believe but are afraid to lose the comfort of group belonging) at another 30%, out of the census "figure" of 85%.

Thanks for that, as I said it was 1am when I posted that.

weisses wrote: »

That was not the point I was making I even gave an example being christian doesn't automatically means being catholic

No, but since non-Catholic Christians account for a smaller group than the non-religious I took the statistics for the largest Christian group.

looksee · 30-11-2014 1:03pm

I don't think the whole Catholic/Christian/Atheist argument matters here. What matters is that a small group of people took it on themselves to remove a structure on private land just because they wanted to impose their views on other people. I think it is quite right to replace it, or the vandals have established that they can impose whatever they want by force.

They could have approached the issue by asking or local opinion, using planning laws or any other legal means. just chopping down something that annoys you is not acceptable.

Some vandals in Waterford decided for whatever reason to chop down a 'fairy tree' on the way up to Mahon Falls. Were they Christians objecting to a pagan symbol? Or were they just ignorant fools who did it because they could? Another tree was planted to replace it, and rightly so, but the original tree which was a local landmark (for the magic road) is gone. Just because somebody wanted to inflict their views on other people.

Pro Hoc Vice · 30-11-2014 1:26pm

kandoola wrote: »

Feel free to point out where ANY gay nurses are getting fired for being gay and where ANY child will not being allowed to go to school based on their religion.

If we can keep the examples to this century that would be good too.
And please post example of it actually happening instead of it could happen. Sure they good become astronauts and walk on the moon some day too, but its as unlikely.
And the people in those articles problems stem from bigotry, not religion. That can happen in any workplace / town / school in the world.
Thats a problem of society. They arent going to be fired for being gay.

But to go back to the topic. Im sure a cross on a hill isnt going to hurt gay nurses or teacher or even children going to school either.

So you believe it is ok to have a law that's tells a number of people in society that they can not be afforded the protection of the state in equality matters.

So you would support a law that tells a person you are inferior as long as we don't act on that law. It's not that any person is treated badly but that the organs of state say it's legal to do so.

If the law is never used why do we have it, just remove it problem solved.

But on the topic I think it was mindless vandalisim to knock it down and I'm not so happy with it being put up, not because it's a cross but because it has little merit as a piece of sculpture. I would be horrified if someone knocked down a Celtic cross but that metal monstroticity well it's not very tasteful but then can't accuse the people who put it up of having much taste.

katydid · 30-11-2014 3:25pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Ok so, but clearly these people identify themselves as Catholic on the census... Not Christian.
.

Because "Catholic" is a subset of Christian. They don't need to write down Christian as well.

katydid · 30-11-2014 3:29pm

kandoola wrote: »

My child is in a state funded school. There was no problem at all.

.

You're lucky. It's a problem for many people. Just because it wasn't a problem for you doesn't mean it's not for others. Every citizen of this state should have a right to education without, for example, having to have their children baptised in a faith they don't believe in.

katydid · 30-11-2014 3:32pm

kandoola wrote: »

Feel free to point out where ANY gay nurses are getting fired for being gay and where ANY child will not being allowed to go to school based on their religion.

.

No idea about the gay nurses, but there are families all over the country who have problems getting children into their local school if they are of a different faith or none. I for one know several people who have had issues with such things, and I'm only one person.

lazygal · 30-11-2014 3:37pm

The local cofi school has no mention of any children other than those of a faith in its 11 criteria. My children aren't allowed to attend as they don't fit into any criteria for enrolment in it

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 3:55pm

Dades wrote: »

Because the church in this country does not.

The church does live and let live. They are hardly knocking on your doors like Jehovah's Witnesses or forcibly converting. Just because they are visible does not mean they are intolerant.

Anyway, the church's message is about love and respect, horrific actions in the past by members of the church does not change that.

Dades wrote: »

When the state ends forced indoctrination in our schools I'll happily hang up my atheist-online hat and get on with something else.

Come on, be honest with yourself - 'forced indoctrination'? That's just childish. There has been real indoctrination in the past i.e. Hitler Jugend and there is real.indoctrination now with groups like IS/ ISIS/ ISIL. To claim that there is forced indoctrination in our schools is laughable.

Choose another school if you feel your kid cant just ignore it. I went to a Catholic primary school and, aside from Communion time, there was very little catholic about it.

Dades wrote: »

Do you think it's right that non-believers have to pretend to be catholic to get into schools?

I don't believe they do have to. Have your kids go to another school if it keeps you awake at night. Most 'Catholic schools' are only religious in name these days. They certainly aren't like the old christian schools were the local 'brothers' acted like tyrants.

eviltwin · 30-11-2014 3:58pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

The church does live and let live. They are hardly knocking on your doors like Jehovah's Witnesses or forcibly converting. Just because they are visible does not mean they are intolerant.

Anyway, the church's message is about love and respect, horrific actions in the past by members of the church does not change that.

Come on, be honest with yourself - 'forced indoctrination'? That's just childish. There has been real indoctrination in the past i.e. Hitler Jugend and there is real.indoctrination now with groups like IS/ ISIS/ ISIL. To claim that there is forced indoctrination in our schools is laughable.

Choose another school if you feel your kid cant just ignore it. I went to a Catholic primary school and, aside from Communion time, there was very little catholic about it.

I don't believe they do have to. Have your kids go to another school if it keeps you awake at night. Most 'Catholic schools' are only religious in name these days. They certainly aren't like the old christian schools were the local 'brothers' acted like tyrants.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find alternatives to a Catholic education?

shruikan2553 · 30-11-2014 4:00pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

The church does live and let live. They are hardly knocking on your doors like Jehovah's Witnesses or forcibly converting. Just because they are visible does not mean they are intolerant.

Anyway, the church's message is about love and respect, horrific actions in the past by members of the church does not change that.

They are quite fond of making sure everyones version of marriage is the Christian version with the law backing them up. Hardly live and let live.

J Mysterio wrote: »

Come on, be honest with yourself - 'forced indoctrination'? That's just childish. There has been real indoctrination in the past i.e. Hitler Jugend and there is real.indoctrination now with groups like IS/ ISIS/ ISIL. To claim that there is forced indoctrination in our schools is laughable.

Choose another school if you feel your kid cant just ignore it. I went to a Catholic primary school and, aside from Communion time, there was very little catholic about it.

I don't believe they do have to. Have your kids go to another school if it keeps you awake at night. Most 'Catholic schools' are only religious in name these days. They certainly aren't like the old christian schools were the local 'brothers' acted like tyrants.

Indoctrination is still indoctrination, just because some places were worse doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.[2] As such the term may be used pejoratively, often in the context of political opinions, theology, religious dogma or anti-religious convictions. The term is closely linked to socialization; in common discourse, indoctrination is often associated with negative connotations, while socialization refers to cultural or educational learning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 4:07pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So you believe it is ok to have a law that's tells a number of people in society that they can not be afforded the protection of the state in equality matters.

So you would support a law that tells a person you are inferior as long as we don't act on that law. It's not that any person is treated badly but that the organs of state say it's legal to do so.

If the law is never used why do we have it, just remove it problem solved.

You are using your wider argument to nitpick at the minutiae. The Pope has said that he thinks gays will go to heaven etc. They are modernising, but very slowly.

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

But on the topic I think it was mindless vandalisim to knock it down and I'm not so happy with it being put up, not because it's a cross but because it has little merit as a piece of sculpture. I would be horrified if someone knocked down a Celtic cross but that metal monstroticity well it's not very tasteful but then can't accuse the people who put it up of having much taste.

lol, so respecting monuments only applies if you think they are very nice aesthetically. Never mind other people.

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 4:10pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find alternatives to a Catholic education?

I do appreciate your point.

I would like to.see.more secular schools but just because I feel that way does not give me licence to be intolerant to others, who are the vast majority.

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 4:12pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They are quite fond of making sure everyones version of marriage is the Christian version with the law backing them up. Hardly live and let live.

Indoctrination is still indoctrination, just because some places were worse doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

You call it indoctrination in Irish schools, I do not.

Cabaal · 30-11-2014 4:16pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

I do appreciate your point.

I would like to.see.more secular schools........

You'd like to see more?

I'd like to see atleast one to begin with!

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 4:18pm

Is there not any? I thought there was.

Seems to me some schools are more overtly religious than others.

Pherekydes · 30-11-2014 4:19pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

You call it indoctrination in Irish schools, I do not.

Children are learning the church doctrine. Ergo, it is indocrination.

expectationlost · 30-11-2014 4:21pm

looksee wrote: »

I don't think the whole Catholic/Christian/Atheist argument matters here. What matters is that a small group of people took it on themselves to remove a structure on private land just because they wanted to impose their views on other people. I think it is quite right to replace it, or the vandals have established that they can impose whatever they want by force.

you seem to have more information on this then the rest of us.

Cantremember · 30-11-2014 4:22pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

You are using your wider argument to nitpick at the minutiae. The Pope has said that he thinks gays will go to heaven etc. They are modernising, /QUOTE]

Have you any sense of how funny it is to see someone talking about heaven as if it was real?

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 4:22pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

Children are learning the church doctrine. Ergo, it is indocrination.

Haha. I see what you did there.

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 4:23pm

Cantremember wrote: »

J Mysterio wrote: »

You are using your wider argument to nitpick at the minutiae. The Pope has said that he thinks gays will go to heaven etc. They are modernising,

Have you any sense of how funny it is to see someone talking about heaven as if it was real?

Yeah, imagine the pope doing that. Forget comedy central, tune to EWTN, hours of.laughs for you.

Cabaal · 30-11-2014 4:25pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

The church does live and let live. They are hardly knocking on your doors like Jehovah's Witnesses or forcibly converting. Just because they are visible does not mean they are intolerant.

You know what, you're right.

The church is all about peace, love and acceptance.

Thats why they have no problem with marriage equality and they are currently making thousands of women into priests.... Oh wait...

The reality is the church is happy to see women as inferior to men, and they've been against any equality granted to gay and lesbians people of the decades.

Not to mention they wanted condoms banned in ireland, didn't matter if you were Catholic or not, they didn't want you getting them.

Live and let live my arse

eviltwin · 30-11-2014 4:25pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

I do appreciate your point.

I would like to.see.more secular schools but just because I feel that way does not give me licence to be intolerant to others, who are the vast majority.

How is wanting an education free of religion being intolerant?

eviltwin · 30-11-2014 4:27pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

You are using your wider argument to nitpick at the minutiae. The Pope has said that he thinks gays will go to heaven etc. They are modernising, but very slowly.

lol, so respecting monuments only applies if you think they are very nice aesthetically. Never mind other people.

Getting into heaven isn't much of a consolation when you are denied the right to marry your partner just because you are gay.

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 4:30pm

Cabaal wrote: »

You know what, you're right.

The church is all about peace, love and acceptance.

Thats why they have no problem with marriage equality and they are currently making thousands of women into priests.... Oh wait...

The reality is the church is happy to see women as inferior to men, and they've been against any equality granted to gay and lesbians people of the decades.

Not to mention they wanted condoms banned in ireland, didn't matter if you were Catholic or not, they didn't want you getting them.

Live and let live my arse

Condoms are no longer an issue and I have just pointed out the church are beginning to modernise in relation to gay people. I believe the pope said something positive in relation to women priests too but not sure on the particulars.

Its obvious the church needs to modernise and it is still.archaic in many ways. Current pope does seem like a nice chap though.

Either way, im not here to defend the church and will desist from that now -.my point is that it seems crazy for atheists to be so vindictive and militant.

riffmongous · 30-11-2014 4:33pm

I thought this was a thread about Corrán Tuathail?

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 4:33pm

eviltwin wrote: »

How is wanting an education free of religion being intolerant?

It doesnt. I was making a broader point in respect of the attitudes here to the destruction of the Carrantuohill cross.

Pro Hoc Vice · 30-11-2014 4:34pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Condoms are no longer an issue and I have just pointed out the church are beginning to modernise in relation to gay people. I believe the pope said something positive in relation to women priests too but not sure on the particulars.

Its obvious the church needs to modernise and it is still.archaic in many ways. Current pope does seem like a nice chap though.

Either way, im not here to defend the church and will desist from that now -.my point is that it seems crazy for atheists to be so vindictive and militant.

How do we know it's arheists who did this.

J Mysterio · 30-11-2014 4:36pm

riffmongous wrote: »

I thought this was a thread about Corrán Tuathail?

It is but, as can be seen, the attitudes of many atheists to the destruction of the cross is a microcosm of the macro attitude towards the church - I think that is natural debate.

Turtwig · 30-11-2014 4:46pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

How do we know it's arheists who did this.

Faith. :pac:

Cabaal · 30-11-2014 4:48pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Condoms are no longer an issue and I have just pointed out the church are beginning to modernise in relation to gay people. .

Condoms are no longer an issue?
Tell that to the countless people who have died from aids in Africa due to the Catholic churches official stance against any condom use.

As for gay people, the church is still fully against marriage equality. Any softening shown in the popes words were forced by the change in world view towards gay people..

The church did not lead this change, they were forced into this change because the alternative option is to be a bigoted organisation... Which of course they still are anyway so go figure.

Cabaal · 30-11-2014 4:52pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

How do we know it's arheists who did this.

Nobody does, it could just as likely have been a pissed of Catholic, protestant, Muslim, scientology, Mormon etc

Maybe it's just a local who had an axe to grind with one of the land owners or the local priest. Who knows.

Could have also been metal fatigue

whats newxt · 30-11-2014 4:55pm

Anyone want to donate a con saw to me i know of a few crosses near me that need taking down.

shruikan2553 · 30-11-2014 5:23pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

You call it indoctrination in Irish schools, I do not.

In my school we were taught this is how it is, God is real and anyone who says otherwise was wrong. Catholicism is right and this is what we believe.

If we look at this we have the teaching of something while the person being taught isnt meant to question or critically examine it. If only we had a word to describe that.

Cantremember · 30-11-2014 5:28pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Yeah, imagine the pope doing that. Forget comedy central, tune to EWTN, hours of.laughs for you.

It's even funnier than that: I don't have to imagine him doing that, he does it in the real world! You're right about the religion channels...incredibly funny.

Mech1 · 30-11-2014 6:02pm

I read today that that cross / giant mickey, whatever you want, was erect again.

looksee · 30-11-2014 6:10pm

expectationlost wrote: »

you seem to have more information on this then the rest of us.

I do not understand this comment. Ok, maybe it was a large group, or an individual, either way it was still some one imposing their views on everyone else by vandalism.

Brian Shanahan · 30-11-2014 6:28pm

kylith wrote: »

Thanks for that, as I said it was 1am when I posted that.

Not a bother. I wasn't disagreeing with the general thrust of your argument either, just cleaning up the reported statistics.

Bloodwing · 30-11-2014 6:32pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Nobody does, it could just as likely have been a pissed of Catholic, protestant, Muslim, scientology, Mormon etc

Maybe it's just a local who had an axe to grind with one of the land owners or the local priest. Who knows.

Could have also been metal fatigue

If I was a betting man my money would be on a group of criminals with a knowledge of the value of scrap metal who were perhaps disturbed or planned on returning to finish the job at a later point.

The theft of metal works of art is nothing new.

braddun · 30-11-2014 6:33pm

its back up

Brian Shanahan · 30-11-2014 6:43pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Getting into heaven isn't much of a consolation when you are denied the right to marry your partner just because you are gay.

And the rcc refuses even that. To get into heaven as a gay person you have to abstain from any sexual activity, even so far as looking on at another gay person with lust.

All this talk from Bergoglio is nothing but mealy mouthed propoganda designed to detract from the fact that the church is, in fact, getting more conservative and intolerant not less. He is a PR shill, and frankly doesn't even mean a word he says, but as he can lie welll "sure tisn't it all grand?"

magicbastarder · 30-11-2014 6:46pm

Bloodwing wrote: »

If I was a betting man my money would be on a group of criminals with a knowledge of the value of scrap metal who were perhaps disturbed or planned on returning to finish the job at a later point.

it's not an insubstantial cross, but it's not particularly substantial either. i suspect someone who was in it purely for financial gain would have been able to benefit from far lower hanging fruit.

Cross on summit of Carrauntoohil cut down with angle grinder (Warning: contains TLAs)

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