Little Known Rules and Common Misconceptions of the Rules of the Road for ALL users

magicbastarder · 29-11-2015 11:11am

plodder wrote: »

www.rotr.ie

cheers, ROTR says to leave the car in first or reverse when parking.

GM228 · 29-11-2015 11:32am

magicbastarder wrote: »

cheers, ROTR says to leave the car in first or reverse when parking.

As I thought, so do you "park" when you stop at a set of traffic lights, afterall you are keeping the car stationary?

Park is defined as:-

"park”, in relation to a vehicle, means keep or leave stationary, and cognate words shall be construed accordingly;

Problem with the ROTR booklet is it's simply a guide, nothing more.

Victor · 29-11-2015 12:19pm

Owryan wrote: »

One that bugs me and i see it every day, using hard shoulders as an extra lane on the road. Often used imo by people who dont feel capable of driving on those big nasty roads. Also, everyday i see people using hard shoulders to exit T-junctions, instead of waiting till it is safe to pull out

As the broken yellow lines marks the edge of the roadway, strictly speaking one should drive on a (non-motorway) hard shoulder either, but, you know, that would be inconvenient. :rolleyes:

BrianD3 wrote: »

With regard to roundabouts, signalling and lane discipline are relatively trivial issues compared to the fundamental question about whether a a vehicle approaching the roundabout has priority over a vehicle already on the roundabout if the approaching vehicle is coming from that vehicle's right.

This leads to the dangerous practise of cars approaching roundabouts at speed and thinking that that they can bomb through it once there is nothing coming from their right. The faster they approach, the "more priority" they think they have.

This letter from the Irish Indo sums up the situation well
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/news/give-way-when-approaching-roundabouts-27827006.html

That letter refers to "the Road Traffic (General) Bye-Laws 1964": http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print which were repealed in 1997: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print so the text may have changed.

GM228 wrote: »

They can't however park up to await a fare (other than a pre-booked fare and then subject to normal parking restrictions), at anywhere other than a taxi rank.

Note that only some councils have taxi-rank ('stands') bye-laws and it is these that prohibit ad-hoc ranks. If there are no bye-laws, I don't think there is a prohibition.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Might be worth mentioning that when making a delivery in the Dublin area, commercial vehicles are allowed to park for up to 20 minutes on yellow lines. I don't know if the same rule applies to other parts of the country or not.

Note that there may be other restrictions - clearway, too close to a junction or signalised crossing - and they aren't allowed unload there.

GM228 wrote: »

HGVs can not go over 80 km/h unless they weight more than 3.5 ton.

Are you sure? Surely all HGVs are over 3.5 tonnes?

Here's something else to note, whilst buses in general are allowed to travel at 100 km/h on a motorway or dual carriageway, a Dublin Bus for example (i.e a bus designed to allow standing) can not legally travel over 65 km/h on a motorway or ANY other roadway.

And plenty of Dublin Bus routes use motorways AFAIK.

So, what's the position of a coach doing 100 km/h on a motorway and someone gets up and goes to the toilet? Is this allowed and should the toilet have a seat belt?

GM228 wrote: »

What motorways have traffic lights?

M50 roundabout at M1, possibly other locations.

GM228 wrote: »

But they are not specifically on the motorway, they are on slip roads, roundabouts etc, i.e entry/exit points of a motorway.

Still motorway.

CelticRambler · 29-11-2015 12:56pm

lalababa wrote: »

Right of way is given to vehicles going downhill 'coz they find it longer/harder to stop.

savagethegoat wrote: »

It's not even a UK law, there you give way as a matter of courtesy to heavy vehicles going uphill.

anothernight wrote: »

It's actually supposed to be: "Give way to vehicles coming uphill whenever you can." on single-track roads only. It's Rule 155 of the UK's Highway Code.

Here in France, it's unequivocally the vehicle going downhill that has to give way to the one going uphill, on the basis that it will be more difficult for the latter to regain momentum if they have to pull over. This is over-turned, however, in the case of vehicles towing a trailer, on the grounds that they are more difficult to bring safely to a stop going downhill.

For other passing situations, the large/heavy vehicle should give way to the smaller one; however I tend to my follow (UK) HGV instructor's guideline: the smaller one goes in the ditch because if it gets stuck, the bigger one can pull it out!

GM228 · 29-11-2015 1:26pm

Victor wrote: »

As the broken yellow lines marks the edge of the roadway, strictly speaking one should drive on a (non-motorway) hard shoulder either, but, you know, that would be inconvenient. :rolleyes

But you have to remember that "roadway" is just a definition of a part of a "road" which is primarily for use by vehicles, not the only place vehicles can use, there is nothing to say you can't leave a roadway to drive on any other road unless there are specific restrictions, for example a footpath is a road, it's restricted to pedestrians by law. A hard shoulder is a road, it's restricted to vehicles (and pedestrians) on a motorway only by law. In other words if you drove on a hard should (other than a motorway) you can't be done for "driving on the hard shoulder", whereas you could be done for driving on a footpath etc. That's not to say though that they may not try and do you for something like dangerous driving etc, but that could be hard to prove unless there were pedestrians/cyclist etc in the hard shoulder.

Note that only some councils have taxi-rank ('stands') bye-laws and it is these that prohibit ad-hoc ranks. If there are no bye-laws, I don't think there is a prohibition.

Indeed local councils set their own bye-laws regarding ranks, but the law does say a taxi can't park to await a fare at anywhere other than a rank:-

The Taxi Regulation Act 2013 (S.I 37/2013) Section 25 (3) states:-

The driver of a taxi shall not stand for hire with the taxi other than at an appointed stand in an area in which it is licensed under section 9 to so stand.

It dosn't specify if the council actually have to have ranks or not.

Note that there may be other restrictions - clearway, too close to a junction or signalised crossing - and they aren't allowed unload there.

Indeed that is correct, that provision would be subject to other parking restrictions, also I forgot to point out that they can also park on an advisory cycle track under the 30 minute rule.

The Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking)(Amendment) Regulations 1998 (S.I. 274/1998) Section 5 (5) states:-

(5) A prohibition on the parking of a vehicle imposed by article 36 (2) (m) shall not apply to a vehicle parked in a cycle track, on the right hand edge of which traffic sign number RRM 023 has been provided, while goods are being loaded in or on to it or unloaded from it for a period not exceeding thirty minutes from the commencement of such parking

Are you sure? Surely all HGVs are over 3.5 tonnes?

Good point, a vehicle under 3.5t would be a LGV as opposed to a HGV, so it should be all HGVs can do 90 km/h on a motorway.

So, what's the position of a coach doing 100 km/h on a motorway and someone gets up and goes to the toilet? Is this allowed and should the toilet have a seat belt?

That's a very interesting point! Not sure, all the law states is it is designed to carry standing passengers.

The Road Traffic (Ordinary Speed Limits Buses, Heavy Goods Vehicles, Etc) Regululations 2008 (S.I. 546/2008) Section 3 states:-

3. (1) The ordinary speed limit prescribed for a single or double deck mechanically propelled vehicle constructed or adapted for use primarily for the carriage of passengers which has seating capacity for more than 8 persons and which is—

(a) neither designed nor adapted for the carriage of standing passengers, when driven on—

(i) a motorway or a dual carriageway, is 100 kilometres per hour, or

(ii) any other public road, is 80 kilometres per hour, or

(b) designed or adapted for the carriage of standing passengers when driven on any public road is 65 kilometres per hour.

My guess is that would be more for buses which allow people to stand for the journey rather than those who are sitting and then get up, great point though.

Still motorway

Massive grey area! The law is specific in that you can only stop on a motorway due to an obstruction, breakdown/accident (or under Garda direction). Something for the next traffic amendment.

Victor · 29-11-2015 2:40pm

GM228 wrote: »

Whilst you can't stop on a motorway for a light you also can't ignore a light. Generally if there is a clash the law which is most restrictive would apply, but I had to think further about that, it would mean you are breaking one law specifically to abide by another which you can't do! For anyone who is done breaking that light near the Port Tunnel you could probably get away with it on a few technicalities if it were actually a motorway, however it is not technically a motorway.

The port tunnel is a motorway. It had a motorway scheme and a motorway order.

On the M1 I take it you are talking about the lights at J1 where you can exit the M1 and enter the M50, those lights are not on a motorway, they are on a link road between two motorways, the link road and also the road near the Port Tunnel actually arn't motorways,

Link roads between motorways are invariably motorways also, unless the junction also has other roads joining it. If they weren't motorways, wouldn't you see 'end of motorway' signs?

they can't be as they don't conform to motorway standards etc.

As dubscottie pointed out the Port Tunnel is part of the M50, but t isn't actually a motorway.

To be a motorway the roads need to satisfy the NRA motorway standards (D2M and D2UM I believe) with certain permissible lane widths and a dual carriageway which is at least 2.5m wide.

If you are so expert on NRA standards, you will also know that it is possible to get derogations (the correct word escapes me) from those standards.

The M50 as a motorway ends before the traffic lights, but the M50 as a road continues into the tunnel even with the M prefix. The Bye-Laws concerning that section of the road and into the Port Tunnel do infact provide for motorway rules, but only insofar as prohibition of entey to vehicles relates as dubscottie pointed out and that is why it has the M prefix retained, the other rules don't apply as technically the road is actually a dual carriageway with one provision of motorway rules applied.

There is so much wrong with what you've said here, I don't know where to start. Non-motorways don't have M-prefixes. Various rules apply to the tunnel, but the bye-laws mainly concern themselves with it being a toll road and a tunnel: http://www.dublintunnel.ie/hauliers/NRADPT_Bye-Laws_Final_locked_v26_Sept_06.pdf

In that sense technically a truck can overtake in that section of the road subject to the road markings.

If I'm correct trucks over a certain size aren't allowed overtake in the tunnel.

GM228 wrote: »

The only other place I can think of is J2 after you leave the M1? Where those lights are located is the M1-R132 link road. Now I know that is shown as a motorway, but technically it isn't a motorway, in Ireland no motorway should have roundabouts or single lane roads etc, a motorway must have at least two lanes according to standards (and a hard shoulder) according to standards,

Again, it is possible to get derogations from those standards. I'm sure the standards also allow single-lane links, pretty much every motorway junction int he country has them.

how many motorway sections have no hard shoulders?

Chunks of the M50 have the auxiliary lane, but no hard shoulder (or its so narrow as to be a hard margin / strip).

they must be in compliance with, or higher than the standards set by existing motorways (that's what the law states

But the 'high-quality dual carriageways' were of a lower standard than previous motorways, but were made motorways anyway.

There has always been standards for motorways, the NRA taking over that responsibility in 2006. It's interesting to note that technically all motorways in Ireland are listed in legislation as national prinary N roads rather than M with the actual motorway sections simply indicated by capital letters for the place names, i.e PORT TUNNEL on the N50 rather than the M50!

In the road classification orders, they are listed as national routes, in motorway orders they are listed as motorways. All the road classification orders do is assign a particular classification (N?R?L) and number to a road. So, only some legialation.

Standards are:-
http://nrastandards.nra.ie/road-design-construction-standards/func-download/462/chk95333a2a5e968c0b0718520644ef647b/no_html1

http://nrastandards.nra.ie/road-design-construction-standards/func-download/465/chka76d246cf0e35edce4f578332f7278ef/no_html1

Before the Port Tunnel was opened the M1 ended where those lights are IIRC and the Port Tunnel actually is a motorway but has it's own bye-laws which apply the prohibition rules only, (big grey area IMO) the green/red lane arrows are already provided for in legislation for tunnels, but not a motorway, not sure about the other traffic lights either, think they are for emergencies, but again not allowed for on a motorway.

You make it sound like you can't have a tunnel on a motorway: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.1678418,-6.7568897,3a,36.7y,16.41h,89.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTLg-6ABV1l3_mtwqE0najA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 They're just rare (there aren't many road tunnels in the country anyway): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tunnels_in_Ireland.

anothernight · 29-11-2015 2:42pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Here in France, it's unequivocally the vehicle going downhill that has to give way to the one going uphill, on the basis that it will be more difficult for the latter to regain momentum if they have to pull over. This is over-turned, however, in the case of vehicles towing a trailer, on the grounds that they are more difficult to bring safely to a stop going downhill.

For other passing situations, the large/heavy vehicle should give way to the smaller one; however I tend to my follow (UK) HGV instructor's guideline: the smaller one goes in the ditch because if it gets stuck, the bigger one can pull it out!

I looked this one up because in Spain the uphill vehicle has right of way, and Spanish and French rules are often really similar so I was surprised it was the opposite in France.

According to the RAC and Sixt it's actually the uphill vehicle that has right of way in France. Although they could be wrong, of course.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic...

EDIT: Found the actual rule

http://www.codes-et-lois.fr/code-de-la-route/article-r414-3

Victor · 29-11-2015 3:00pm

dubscottie wrote: »

Just to clarify.. The Port Tunnel IS a motorway.

As I said its just badly numbered.

The M50 is Dublin's ring road, so perfectly sensible. Now, having the South Eastern Motorway as M50, that's questionable

plodder wrote: »

On the jaywalking point, there is a related offence of pedestrians using the road (generally) where there is a footpath. Joggers should take note of that one.

GM228 wrote: »

Spot on, I mentioned this previously, a pedestrian can only use the road generally (except a motorway) if there is no footpath.

Can you point to this provision?

Not that road extend from boundary to boundary, what you are talking about is the roadway (as distinct from footway, grass margin, etc.)

GM228 wrote: »

As I thought, so do you "park" when you stop at a set of traffic lights, afterall you are keeping the car stationary?

If you are in traffic, you are not parked. One is not 'keeping' the vehicle stationary, one is prevented from moving (by the traffic light or other vehicles).

Anyway, it's an offence to park at traffic lights (within 15 metres on approach side, 5 metres on departure side).

GM228 wrote: »

Indeed local councils set their own bye-laws regarding ranks, but the law does say a taxi can't park to await a fare at anywhere other than a rank:-

The Taxi Regulation Act 2013 (S.I 37/2013) Section 25 (3) states:-

The driver of a taxi shall not stand for hire with the taxi other than at an appointed stand in an area in which it is licensed under section 9 to so stand.

It dosn't specify if the council actually have to have ranks or not.

All that means is that a taxi licenced to operate in Cork, can't stand for hire at a rank in Dublin

GM228 · 29-11-2015 3:04pm

Victor wrote: »

The port tunnel is a motorway. It had a motorway scheme and a motorway order.

I realised that after the post, could have done with an edit!

Link roads between motorways are invariably motorways also.

Ok I suppose that is true, and a grey area where traffic lights are provided so!

If you are so expert on NRA standards, you will also know that it is possible to get derogations (the correct word escapes me) from those standards.

I never claimed to be an expert on the NRA, I'm far from it, I'm just doing a lot of research into law in general at the moment, I'd be more in tune with the rules for users rather than the rules for road classification/design etc, but the Roads Act 2003 requires a motorway to be of a similar standard or higher to existing motorways. Indeed it is quite possible there is a derogation.

There is so much wrong with what you've said here, I don't know where to start. Non-motorways don't have M-prefixes. Various rules apply to the tunnel, but the bye-laws mainly concern themselves with it being a toll road and a tunnel: http://www.dublintunnel.ie/hauliers/NRADPT_Bye-Laws_Final_locked_v26_Sept_06.pdf

I agree with you 100% having looked further into it at the time, a motorway can only have the M prefix, my misake, again edit would have come in handy on that post! I had not got to my research point on roads classifications when the subject came up!

With regards to trucks overtaking, that rule applies to vehicles under 90 kmh, but considering the Port Tunnel has a lower speed limit can that actually apply? Just curious.

I just like anyone else do not no it all, but I'm learning and studying and that's the great thing about a thread like this, it clarifies, amends, confirms or rubbishes any interpretations, understandings or misconceptions we have of certain laws or provisions and I appreciate all the feedback/comments.

GM228 · 29-11-2015 3:15pm

Victor wrote: »

Can you point to this provision?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46

Section 46

(4) Subject to sub-article (5), save when crossing the roadway, a pedestrian shall use a footway if one is provided, and if one is not provided, shall keep as near as possible to the right edge of the roadway.

Road and roadway are different I know and I know we said road but we are talking about a roadway, I gather most people would realise that as most people including myself I'm sure regularly make that mistake by saying road and actually mean the roadway in fairness

very rare to hear someone state cross the roadway.

Another misconception!

Victor · 29-11-2015 5:05pm

GM228 wrote: »

I never claimed to be an expert on the NRA, I'm far from it, I'm just doing a lot of research into law in general at the moment, but the Roads Act 2003 requires a motorway to be of a similar standard or higher to existing motorways. Indeed it is quite possible there is a derogation.

Do you mean

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2007/act/34/section/8/enacted/en/html#sec8

Declaration of motorways.

8.(2) Where the Minister proposes to declare under subsection (1) a road to be a motorway and the Authority informs him or her in writing that—

(a) the road has been or will be constructed to a similar or higher standard as existing motorways,

(b) provision is made for alternative means of access to any land which is to cease as a result of the declaration, and

(c) the road is or will be at least a dual carriageway or an integrated part of the design of a dual carriageway and part of the network of national roads,

Note that it says "similar or higher standard as existing motorways". At that time, existing motorways had single-lane links & slip roads and traffic lights. However, this likely only applies to motorways authorised under the 2007 act.

GM228 · 29-11-2015 5:11pm

Victor wrote: »

Do you mean

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2007/act/34/section/8/enacted/en/html#sec8Note that it says "similar or higher standard as existing motorways". At that time, existing motorways had single-lane links and slip roads and traffic lights.

Point taken, thanks.

However with regards to the traffic lights, they have never been and still arn't provided for in legislation with regards to when you can stop on a motorway, it is a grey area in fairness. I wouldn't like to challenge that arguement with a judge though.

Obviously a relatively minor grey area when compared to other grey areas that may appear in laws.

Sam Russell · 29-11-2015 6:53pm

Stop/Yield Signs
For some reason a large amount of people believe that a Yield sign means “yield to traffic coming from your right”, this is actually incorrect, a Yield sign means you must yield to all traffic on the major road. A stop sign simply means you must stop before entering a major road, and then yield right of way to all traffic on a major road.

I think this includes pedestrians crossing the road. See 'Rules of the Road'. page 200.

Pedestrians
As a driver, you must not put a pedestrian at risk. In particular, you must give way to pedestrians:
* on or at a zebra crossing (even if they are only waiting to cross),
* on or at a pelican crossing, when the amber light is flashing, crossing the road, if you are moving off from a stationary position (for example at a traffic light or a parking space), and
* at a junction, if they have started crossing the road.

GM228 · 29-11-2015 7:12pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Stop/Yield Signs
For some reason a large amount of people believe that a Yield sign means “yield to traffic coming from your right”, this is actually incorrect, a Yield sign means you must yield to all traffic on the major road. A stop sign simply means you must stop before entering a major road, and then yield right of way to all traffic on a major road.

I think this includes pedestrians crossing the road. See 'Rules of the Road'. page 200.

Yes that is correct, you must yield to all vehicles and pedestrians (message #78). Weather or not the pedestrians should be there or not would be irrelevant I would imagine.

Cookie_Monster · 29-11-2015 10:06pm

GM228 wrote: »

When changing lanes or joining lanes you must yield right of way to any traffic already in that lane.

This one pisses me off in regards to cycle lanes as cars rarely yield when turning across them.

GM228 · 21-12-2015 11:48am

Something I have come across on the Motors section is the belief that anyone with a driving licence from any country can legally drive here. That is incorrect, as per the RTA only people with an Irish or EU/EEA driving licence can drive here on their licence as well as people with licences from the following recognised states (but only for 12 months):-

Australia, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Japan, Jersey , Canada (Manitoba and Ontario issued only), New Zealand, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland and Taiwan.

Even the US and the other Canadian states licences are not legal here unless accompanied by an International Driving Permit.

hognef · 21-12-2015 12:08pm

GM228 wrote: »

Something I have come across on the Motors section is the belief that anyone with a driving licence from any country can legally drive here. That is incorrect, as per the RTA only people with an Irish or EU/EEA driving licence can drive here on their licence as well as people with licences from the following recognised states (but only for 12 months):-

Australia, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Japan, Jersey , Canada (Manitoba and Ontario issued only), New Zealand, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland and Taiwan.

Even the US and the other Canadian states licences are not legal here unless accompanied by an International Driving Permit.

Wrong, according to NDLS.ie:

"If you are not from any of the above countries, (for example The United States), and you hold a national driving licence or an international driving permit from your own country, you may drive in Ireland for the duration of your temporary visit (up to 12 months)."

GM228 · 21-12-2015 12:11pm

hognef wrote: »

Wrong, according to NDLS.ie:

"If you are not from any of the above countries, (for example The United States), and you hold a national driving licence or an international driving permit from your own country, you may drive in Ireland for the duration of your temporary visit (up to 12 months)."

The NDLS site is incorrect, an obvious typo, the or should be and, an IDP must accompany a licence so it can't be one or the other, an IDP is valid for 12 months which is where the "up to 12 months" rule comes from.

Many will be surprised to know that a US licence is not actually recognised under Irish law.

GM228 · 21-12-2015 1:43pm

Just coming back to the previous posting about a Taxi standing at an appointed stand the principle act states:-
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/37/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25

(3) The driver of a taxi shall not stand for hire with the taxi other than at an appointed stand in an area in which it is licensed under section 9 to so stand.

Perhaps the previous poster was correct in saying it means a taxi in one county can't stand for hire in another counties stand, but I think that is meant to be a two part rule, in other words it can only stand for hire at a taxi stand and only in it's licensed county? I read somewhere (possibly the DTTS website) that a Taxi can only "stand" for hire at an appointed stand and "ply" for hire anywhere else.

The 2014 Act states:-
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/si/165/made/en/print

(2) For the purposes of section 25(3) of the Principal Act, where a vehicle fitted with a taxi roof sign is stationary in a public place other than an appointed stand, and such vehicle is not occupied by a person other than the driver, the driver of the vehicle shall be deemed to be standing for hire at a place other than an appointed stand.

Does that clarify that a public place is any public place and not just the area of licencing? The 2014 Act also states there is a €40 fine for "standing for hire in a taxi otherwise than at an appointed stand", but doesn't specify if it applies only to an area of licencing?

Confusing?

Any toughts?

reubenreuben · 21-12-2015 2:00pm

Drivers joining onto motorway from the left. Do these not know that they should give way to the cars already on the motorway??

Majority on M50 think they can just push you out of the lane.

I can see why drivers keep to the middle lane, the left lane is chaos.

GM228 · 21-12-2015 2:02pm

reubenreuben wrote: »

Drivers joining onto motorway from the left. Do these not know that they should give way to the cars already on the motorway??

Majority on M50 think they can just push you out of the lane.

I can see why drivers keep to the middle lane, the left lane is chaos.

Indeed, and I often see traffic wrongly giving way (i.e jamming on their brakes or leaving their lane) to those joining the motorway/dual carriageway etc.

As per #78 you must yield when:-

When changing lanes or joining lanes you must yield right of way to any traffic already in that lane.

reubenreuben · 21-12-2015 2:07pm

GM228 wrote: »

Indeed, and I often see people on roads wrongly giving way (i.e breaking or leaving their lane) to those joining the motorway/dual carriageway etc.

As per #78 you must yield when:-

As happened to me today I was blasted out of it by a driver who thought they had right of way when in fact I did. I think thats why people move into another lane as it is a common occurence and they don't want the hassle or a chance of them being hit.

hognef · 21-12-2015 5:40pm

GM228 wrote: »

The NDLS site is incorrect, an obvious typo, the or should be and, an IDP must accompany a licence so it can't be one or the other, an IDP is valid for 12 months which is where the "up to 12 months" rule comes from.

Many will be surprised to know that a US licence is not actually recognised under Irish law.

The NDLS also states the following (which surely is not just a typo):

"As a visitor to Ireland you can driver [sic] on a driving licence from any state outside the EU/EEA for up to a year provided the driving licence is current and valid. "

Also, specifically in the US licence case: Given that an international driving licence is no more than a translation of a national licence, what purpose would it serve in Ireland, and what language would Irish authorities need it translated into?

Do you have a link to back up your understanding?

GM228 · 21-12-2015 5:55pm

hognef wrote: »

The NDLS also states the following (which surely is not just a typo):

"As a visitor to Ireland you can driver [sic] on a driving licence from any state outside the EU/EEA for up to a year provided the driving licence is current and valid."

Also, specifically in the US licence case: Given that an international driving licence is no more than a translation of a national licence, what purpose would it serve in Ireland, and what language would Irish authorities need it translated into?

Do you have a link to back up your understanding?

"you can driver on a driving licence" - that quote alone just goes to show how bad the wording on the NDLS site is and how it obviously wasn't proof read, the same person obviously wrote in the "on" instead of "and" I'd imagine.

Indeed there is no typo with that quote otherwise, but read the section the quote is in taken from as it is misquoted, it is in relation to "recognised" states which are Australia, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Japan, Jersey , Canada (Manitoba and Ontario issued only), New Zealand, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland and Taiwan.

Irish, EU/EEA and the above "recognised" states are the only legal licences in this country.

An IDP contains a multilingual translation of your licence, but it is required along with your original licence irrespective of the language of the country you are driving in, remember it is a "permit", not just a translation, it permits you to drive internationally.

Victor · 21-12-2015 7:51pm

hognef wrote: »

Also, specifically in the US licence case: Given that an international driving licence is no more than a translation of a national licence, what purpose would it serve in Ireland, and what language would Irish authorities need it translated into?

Some driving licences from the USA may be in Spanish, although realistically, I imagine they will have an English also.

hognef · 21-12-2015 10:50pm

GM228 wrote: »

"you can driver on a driving licence" - that quote alone just goes to show how bad the wording on the NDLS site is and how it obviously wasn't proof read, the same person obviously wrote in the "on" instead of "and" I'd imagine.

Indeed there is no typo with that quote otherwise, but read the section the quote is in taken from as it is misquoted, it is in relation to "recognised" states which are Australia, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Japan, Jersey , Canada (Manitoba and Ontario issued only), New Zealand, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland and Taiwan.

Irish, EU/EEA and the above "recognised" states are the only legal licences in this country.

An IDP contains a multilingual translation of your licence, but it is required along with your original licence irrespective of the language of the country you are driving in, remember it is a "permit", not just a translation, it permits you to drive internationally.

The text expressly said that licences from 'any country' can be used for up to 12 months.

The 'recognised' countries are only advantaged in the exchange process, the recognition appears to have nothing to do with rights to actual driving in the country.

An IDP is not a permit, it really is just a translation (Why else would the original be required alongside it?). Also, IDPs aren't necessarily only issued for 12 months, they can also be issued for 3 years by some countries. The 12 month 'window' for driving in Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the validity period of an IDP.

Again, can you show anything that actually backs up your claims?

hognef · 21-12-2015 10:55pm

Victor wrote: »

Some driving licences from the USA may be in Spanish, although realistically, I imagine they will have an English also.

By all means. But it's not as if Spanish is an obscure language not easily understood (in the context of reading the content of a driver's licence).

GM228 · 22-12-2015 11:28am

hognef wrote: »

The text expressly said that licences from 'any country' can be used for up to 12 months.

I think we have established by now that the NDLS site is very badly written and full of typos and I wouldn't swear by it, however it does get the general stuff right.

But again this is quoted out of context, it is taken from the section specifically dealing with "recognised" countries driving licences, if it literally meant "any country" then the next section dealing with "any other country" and IDPs would be meaningless. At the end of the day the NDLS site has no legal basis anyway. Only recognised states issues licences can be used to drive for up to 12 months, not any country.

The 'recognised' countries are only advantaged in the exchange process, the recognition appears to have nothing to do with rights to actual driving in the country.

I'm sorry but that is incorrect, the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006 gives recognised countries "recognised driving licence" status for a period of up to one year before they have to exchange the licence.

An IDP is not a permit, it really is just a translation (Why else would the original be required alongside it?). Also, IDPs aren't necessarily only issued for 12 months, they can also be issued for 3 years by some countries. The 12 month 'window' for driving in Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the validity period of an IDP.

Again this is incorrect, IDPs can only be issued for use in Brazil and Somalia for 3 years under the Convention on Road Traffic 1926, other IDPs including those for use here are limited to 1 year as per the Convention on Road Traffic 1949, IDPs here are recognised on the basis of the 1949 Convention, not the 1926 one (see below). An IDP is recognised by law as a permit under the Mechanically Propelled Vehicles (International Circulation) Order, 1992. Also I think "permit" in it's title is a giveaway that it is actually a permit and not just a translation.

The original licence is required with it because an IDP supplements the original licence, but a US licence is not a recognised foreign licence under Irish law, an IDP is a recognised "permit" under the above mentioned law and that is why an IDP is required.

The Mechanically Propelled Vehicles (International Circulation) Order, 1992 states:-

"international driving permit" means a valid and properly completed international driving permit issued to a visitor under the Convention of 1949 by the competent authority of the State in which he resides, or by an association duly empowered by such authority to issue such permit;

Again, can you show anything that actually backs up your claims?

Yes.

The laws regarding foreign driving licences were changed in 2010 which too few people, insurance companies, car hire companies etc. seem to be aware of.

In 2006 the law was changed to give recognition to certain foreign driving licences for exhange purposes, and also for driving upto 12 months before the exchange on such licences, and in 2010 the law was again changed to distinguish between domestic and foreign driving licences, foreign driving licences are legally defined as those from the EU/EEA and those "recognised" by the 2006 change.

Citizens Information have reflected the changes in law and have it written much better than the badly written NDLS site:-
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...ng_permit.html

Rules
Holders of licences issued by an EU/EEA member state
If you have a driving licence issued by an EU/EEA member state you can drive in Ireland as long as your existing licence is valid. If you wish to exchange your driving licence for an equivalent Irish driving licence when it expires, you must do so within 10 years of your driving licence expiring.

Holders of licences issued by a recognised state
Ireland has agreements with certain other countries/states that designates them as recognised states for the purposes of driving licence exchange. These are:

Australia*
Gibraltar
Guernsey
Isle of Man
Japan
Jersey
Manitoba State of Canada*
New Zealand*
Ontario State of Canada*
South Africa
South Korea
Switzerland
Taiwan*
* See the National Driver Licence Service (NDLS) website for more information.

If you are a holder of a licence issued by one of the above states you can drive in Ireland for up to 1 year when visiting, providing your licence is valid. If you become normally resident in Ireland, you should exchange your driving licence or begin the process of applying for an Irish driving licence. You are considered to be normally resident in Ireland if, because of personal and occupational ties, you usually live here for at least 185 days in each calendar year. (An EU licence holder can drive on the EU licence for as long as the licence is valid without the need to exchange.)

If you wish to exchange your driving licence for an equivalent Irish driving licence, you must do so within 1 year of your driving licence expiring for Non-EU licence holders (10 years for EU licence holders).

Holders of driving licences from other countries
If you are not from any of the above countries, (for example, if you are from the United States), and you hold a national driving licence and an international driving permit from your own country, you may drive in Ireland for the duration of your temporary visit (up to 12 months).

If your stay in Ireland will be more than 12 months you can apply for an Irish driving licence but you will need to go through the full driver licensing procedure. You must first complete a driver theory test, apply for a learner driving permit and complete your driving test in Ireland. If you pass your driving test, you will be issued with an Irish driving licence.

In 2010 the RTA 1961 Act was amended to show the difference between Irish and Foreign driving licences and actually recognise some foreign driving licences without an IDP.

The Road Traffic Act 1961 (as amended by the Road Traffic Act 2010) states:-

Section 3.
Interpretation
‘driving licence’ means—
(a) an Irish driving licence, or
(b) a foreign driving licence;

‘foreign driving licence’ means a licence or permit to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle—
(a) in respect of a category of vehicle referred to in the European Communities (Recognition of Driving Licences of Other Member States) Regulations 2008 (S.I. No. 464 of 2008) issued by the competent authority of another Member State or a member state of the European Economic Area, but does not include a licence or permit so issued to a person to enable the person to learn to drive or provisionally to drive a vehicle, or
(b) recognised by an order made under section 23A(1);

That separates Irish and foreign driving licences and foreign driving licences are further separated into EU/EEA and "recognised" foreign driving licences.
And as you can see non EU/EEA foreign driving licences are only those recognised by an order under Section 23A(1).

The Road Traffic Act 1961 (as inserted by the Road Traffic Act 2006) states:-

Recognition of foreign driving licences.
23A.— (1) The Minister may by order declare that a licence or permit permitting a person to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a licence or permit issued to a person to enable that person to learn or provisionally to drive such a vehicle, issued by the competent authority of a state other than the State, shall be recognised for the purpose of exchange of that licence or permit for a driving licence, in respect of any one or more of the categories in respect of which the licence or permit is held, and subject to such restrictions, if any, as may be specified in the order.
(2) Every order made by the Minister under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is mad e and, if a resolution annulling the order is passed by either such House within the next 21 days on which that House has sat after the order is laid before it, the order shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under it.

Only four orders have been made so far recognising foreign driving licences:-
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2007/si/527/made/en/print
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/si/402/made/en/print
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/si/413/made/en/print
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/118/made/en/print

These recognise foreign driving licences from the following states only:-
Australia, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Japan, Jersey , Canada (Manitoba and Ontario issued only), New Zealand, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland and Taiwan. As per Section 3 of the RTA these are the only recognised foreign driving licences in Ireland.

Any other licence which isn’t EU/EEA issued or covered by the orders is not recognised unless they have a valid IDP to accompany their licence from a country which is signed to the UN Conventions on Road Traffic 1926 or 1949 as per the Mechanically Propelled Vehicles (International Circulation) Order, 1992.

So in summary:-

1. Any Irish/EU/EEA licence holder can drive whilst the licence is valid.

2. Any licence issued from Australia, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Japan, Jersey , Canada (Manitoba and Ontario issued only), New Zealand, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland and Taiwan can drive a vehicle for upto 12 months and can swap for an Irish licence within the 12 months (note certain other conditions such as signing declarations or restrictions to automatic vehicles apply to certain states)

3. Any other country not listed above but which is signed to the 1926 or 1949 Conventions licences are not recognised here, but an IDP to accompany their licence is. (There are too many countries to list.)

4. Any country not listed above and not signed to the conventions is not recognised at all.

In the case of 3 (without an IDP) or 4 it is the same as driving without a licence as they aren't recognised and as such are an offence under the RTA1961.

savagethegoat · 22-12-2015 12:56pm

GM228 wrote: »

Indeed, and I often see traffic wrongly giving way (i.e jamming on their brakes or leaving their lane) to those joining the motorway/dual carriageway etc.

As per #78 you must yield when:-

Indeed that is the law, a gentleman (or lady) would however lift off the gas a little or move over to allow the person to merge. It is most definitely not wrong to do this . It's good driving practise

GM228 · 22-12-2015 1:04pm

savagethegoat wrote: »

Indeed that is the law, a gentleman (or lady) would however lift off the gas a little or move over to allow the person to merge. It is most definitely not wrong to do this . It's good driving practise

It's the wrong way to yield right of way to the person joining, but yes could be considered a good practice for the person to lift of the gas or change lane, but it's depending on the situation, the problem I have is people joining who seem to believe thay have right of way and force motorists already in the lane to brake which in itself isn't good practice.

Carawaystick · 22-12-2015 1:07pm

GM228 wrote: »

The Road Traffic Act 1961 (as inserted by the Road Traffic Act 2006) states:-

Only four orders have been made so far recognising foreign driving licences:-
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../made/en/print
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../made/en/print
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../made/en/print
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../made/en/print

These recognise foreign driving licences from the following states only:-
Australia, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Japan, Jersey , Canada (Manitoba and Ontario issued only), New Zealand, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland and Taiwan. As per Section 3 of the RTA these are the only recognised foreign driving licences in Ireland.

Those links are broken [404]

savagethegoat · 22-12-2015 1:11pm

GM228 wrote: »

It's the wrong way to yield right of way to the person joining, but yes could be considered a good practice for the person to lift of the gas or change lane, but it's depending on the situation, the problem I have is people joining who seem to believe thay have right of way and force motorists already in the lane to brake which in itself isn't good practice.

The way I look at it, the guy to the right has the right of way if the cars are side by side, someone ahead in the left lane should be allowed to proceed (having indicated of course). It's an unsafe practise to deny people to merge....forcing them to stop or slow in the acceleration lane is not how slip roads were designed. A car merging should match the speed of the traffic, signal and move into the main line in a suitable gap, which may result in other cars adjusting their position.

GM228 · 22-12-2015 1:17pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Those links are broken [404]

Links fixed, thanks.

GM228 · 22-12-2015 1:19pm

savagethegoat wrote: »

The way I look at it, the guy to the right has the right of way if the cars are side by side, someone ahead in the left lane should be allowed to proceed (having indicated of course). It's an unsafe practise to deny people to merge....forcing them to stop or slow in the acceleration lane is not how slip roads were designed. A car merging should match the speed of the traffic, signal and move into the main line in a suitable gap, which may result in other cars adjusting their position.

That is the big problem, slower moving traffic merging forcing those already in the lane to brake when they can't move to the next lane.

reubenreuben · 22-12-2015 1:28pm

savagethegoat wrote: »

The way I look at it, the guy to the right has the right of way if the cars are side by side, someone ahead in the left lane should be allowed to proceed (having indicated of course). It's an unsafe practise to deny people to merge....forcing them to stop or slow in the acceleration lane is not how slip roads were designed. A car merging should match the speed of the traffic, signal and move into the main line in a suitable gap, which may result in other cars adjusting their position.

This isn't helped by the very short slip roads on the M50.

savagethegoat · 22-12-2015 1:29pm

it is also an offense to drive without due consideration. The Law on right of way and merging isn't an absolute. Deliberately preventing someone from merging (by closing the gap for instance) is thus an offence and also can be dangerous.

plodder · 22-12-2015 1:35pm

GM228 wrote: »

So in summary:-

1. Any Irish/EU/EEA licence holder can drive whilst the licence is valid.

2. Any licence issued from Australia, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Japan, Jersey , Canada (Manitoba and Ontario issued only), New Zealand, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland and Taiwan can drive a vehicle for upto 12 months and can swap for an Irish licence within the 12 months (note certain other conditions such as signing declarations or restrictions to automatic vehicles apply to certain states)

3. Any other country not listed above but which is signed to the 1926 or 1949 Conventions licences are not recognised here, but an IDP to accompany their licence is. (There are too many countries to list.)

4. Any country not listed above and not signed to the conventions is not recognised at all.

In the case of 3 (without an IDP) or 4 it is the same as driving without a licence as they aren't recognised and as such are an offence under the RTA1961.

That is strange. I would guess that most US visitors who rent a car here wouldn't have an IDP. Irish license holders visiting the US don't need one.

The advice from the US embassy is you don't need one, but if you want to get one, they show you how

Same with the AA. They say most rental companies won't ask for one. All a bit Irish isn't it?

Sam Russell · 22-12-2015 1:36pm

savagethegoat wrote: »

The way I look at it, the guy to the right has the right of way if the cars are side by side, someone ahead in the left lane should be allowed to proceed (having indicated of course). It's an unsafe practise to deny people to merge....forcing them to stop or slow in the acceleration lane is not how slip roads were designed. A car merging should match the speed of the traffic, signal and move into the main line in a suitable gap, which may result in other cars adjusting their position.

There should always be a gap big enough for a merging car to fit between two cars in the left lane, otherwise the following car is tailgating (or too close in our language). Depending on speed, there should always be at least two or three car lengths between moving cars to allow for sudden braking and once the merging vehicle is in the lane, the distances are readjusted.

Many many times I have seen the following car closing the gap to prevent merging cars entering the lane. This is dangerous driving in my opinion.

GM228 · 22-12-2015 1:38pm

plodder wrote: »

That is strange. I would guess that most US visitors who rent a car here wouldn't have an IDP. Irish license holders visiting the US don't need one.

The advice from the US embassy is you don't need one, but if you want to get one, they show you how Same with the AA. They say most rental companies won't ask for one. All a bit Irish isn't it?

Indeed, each country decides for itself which licences it accepts and the US accepts Irish driving licences. The Dublin US Embassy dosn't say you don't need an IDP, they say you can drive for 12 months and that you can apply for the IDP if you wish, it is badly worded. Tourist is the key there, the Mechanically Propelled Vehicles (International Circulation) Order, 1992 requires a "tourist" to have an IDP.

American citizens are permitted to drive in Ireland for the duration of a visit up to 12 months as a tourist. If you wish to apply for an International Permit for use during your visit you can apply through the AAA in the U.S.

What any site may say/indicate at the end of the day is irrelevant, the law here dosn't recognise a US licence as shown above. As shown the law only recognises Irish and foreign (EA/EEA and "recognised" states) licences.

reubenreuben · 22-12-2015 1:45pm

savagethegoat wrote: »

it is also an offense to drive without due consideration. The Law on right of way and merging isn't an absolute. Deliberately preventing someone from merging (by closing the gap for instance) is thus an offence and also can be dangerous.

And deliberately pushing your way in to the left lane is also an offence and can be dangerous. Similar argument here.

This isnt helped with the short slip roads as drivers have hardly anytime to merge or be allowed to merge. The road planners were very unprofessional. Other countries can do it well so why can't Ireland.

plodder · 22-12-2015 1:48pm

GM228 wrote: »

Either way the law is the law as shown above and what any companies say you can/can't do is irrelevant, as pointed out a US licence isn't legal here.

It's not good having unenforced and largely unknown regulations on the statute book.

For what it's worth, in Britain they don't require an IDP for visitors and there is a simple web page/tool that sets out the exact situation.

https://www.gov.uk/driving-nongb-licence

GM228 · 22-12-2015 1:52pm

plodder wrote: »

It's not good having unenforced and largely unknown regulations on the statute book.

For what it's worth, in Britain they don't require an IDP for visitors generally speaking and there is a simple web page/tool that sets it out.

https://www.gov.uk/driving-nongb-licence

I agree with you 100% about un-enforced and unknow laws, but that does not make them any less applicable. I asked my brother about this and whilst he dosn't deal directly with the traffic core he says he knows of nobody who has been pulled up over it.

Indeed the UK dosn't require one, it is a matter for each individual country, all it requires is an amendment to the RTA or a new order under 23(A) to recognise other countries licences.

savagethegoat · 22-12-2015 1:58pm

reubenreuben wrote: »

And deliberately pushing your way in to the left lane is also an offence and can be dangerous. Similar argument here.

This isnt helped with the short slip roads as drivers have hardly anytime to merge or be allowed to merge. The road planners were very unprofessional. Other countries can do it well so why can't Ireland.

The right lane you mean? It's driving without due consideration just the same I agree . It's down to driver education , woefully lacking in Ireland and experience. The AA used to teach Defensive Driving and it's a very good way to drive. The "me first" attitude all too in evidence on our roads is the problem.

Little Known Rules and Common Misconceptions of the Rules of the Road for ALL users

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