Race Relations in Ireland

Zombrex · 08-10-2009 4:02pm

asdasd wrote: »

The powers that be.

That is not particularly convincing.

People seem to be inventing an oppression in order to feel there is a double standard, or at the very least completely miss-understanding why people actually objected to certain events and festivals such as "White Power" festivals.

Do you have any evidence that this actually happens, that someone putting on an event that was not racist in nature but who used the term "white" was hounded for being a racist?

asdasd · 08-10-2009 4:14pm

Do you have any evidence that this actually happens, that someone putting on an event that was not racist in nature but who used the term "white" was hounded for being a racist?

Well I am not making the argument. In fact - and the English was simple - I was makign the argument that the term white could be seen as racist. So argue with the other guy.

PaulieD · 08-10-2009 5:17pm

Hazys wrote: »

Id like to see these facts and figures of the millions of Irish slaves in the carribean and the large irish-carribbean communites that evolved from it.

Sure.

By 1637 a census showed that 69% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves, which records show was a cause of concern to the English planters. But there were not enough political prisoners to supply the demand, so every petty infraction carried a sentence of transporting, and slaver gangs combed the country sides to kidnap enough people to fill out their quotas.

http://www.giftofireland.com/IrishSlaves.htm

The demand for labor on these distant plantations prompted mass kidnappings in Ireland. A pamphlet published in 1660 accused the British of sending soldiers to grab any Irish people they could in order to sell them to Barbados for profit: "It was the usual practice with Colonel Strubber, Governor of Galway, and other commanders in the said country, to take people out of their beds at night and sell them for slaves to the Indies, and by computations sold out of the said country about a thousand souls. "In Black Folk Then and Now, Du Bois concurs: "Even young Irish peasants were hunted down as men hunt down game, and were forcibly put aboard ship, and sold to plantations in Barbados."
According to Peter Berresford Ellis in To Hell or Connaught, soldiers commanded by Henry Cromwell, Oliver's son, seized a thousand "Irish wenches" to sell to Barbados. Henry justified the action by saying, "Although we must use force in taking them up , it is so much for their own good and likely to be of so great an advantage to the public." He also suggested that 2,000 Irish boys of 12 to 14 years of age could be seized for the same purpose: "Who knows but it might be a means to make them Englishmen." In 1667 Parliament passed the Act to Regulate Negroes on British Plantations. Punishments included a severe whipping for striking a Christian. For the second offense: branding on the face with a hot iron. There was no punishment for "inadvertently" whipping a slave to death.

http://irelandsown.net/afroirish.html

Hazys · 08-10-2009 5:52pm

PaulieD wrote: »

Sure.

By 1637 a census showed that 69% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves, which records show was a cause of concern to the English planters. But there were not enough political prisoners to supply the demand, so every petty infraction carried a sentence of transporting, and slaver gangs combed the country sides to kidnap enough people to fill out their quotas.

http://www.giftofireland.com/IrishSlaves.htm

The demand for labor on these distant plantations prompted mass kidnappings in Ireland. A pamphlet published in 1660 accused the British of sending soldiers to grab any Irish people they could in order to sell them to Barbados for profit: "It was the usual practice with Colonel Strubber, Governor of Galway, and other commanders in the said country, to take people out of their beds at night and sell them for slaves to the Indies, and by computations sold out of the said country about a thousand souls. "In Black Folk Then and Now, Du Bois concurs: "Even young Irish peasants were hunted down as men hunt down game, and were forcibly put aboard ship, and sold to plantations in Barbados."
According to Peter Berresford Ellis in To Hell or Connaught, soldiers commanded by Henry Cromwell, Oliver's son, seized a thousand "Irish wenches" to sell to Barbados. Henry justified the action by saying, "Although we must use force in taking them up , it is so much for their own good and likely to be of so great an advantage to the public." He also suggested that 2,000 Irish boys of 12 to 14 years of age could be seized for the same purpose: "Who knows but it might be a means to make them Englishmen." In 1667 Parliament passed the Act to Regulate Negroes on British Plantations. Punishments included a severe whipping for striking a Christian. For the second offense: branding on the face with a hot iron. There was no punishment for "inadvertently" whipping a slave to death.

http://irelandsown.net/afroirish.html

The population of Monsterrat is currently 5,000 people i have no idea what the population was in 1637 but i couldn't have been much. How this fact proves Irish people suffered more from slavery than Africans is beyond me?

Yes, its a well know fact that other races and nationalities we're used as slaves not just africans. At certain stages in every country's history slave ownership existed, Africans had slave's in Africa, Irish people had slave's in Ireland but the greatest exploit of slavery was the millions of African slaves bought, sold, killed all along the Americas and the years of opression based on the colour of their skin that followed slavery, most notably in the US but also all along the Americas.

Slavery of Africans was abolished in 1865 in the US (i have no idea what % of slaves were non-african but id be suprised if it was greater than 1% during those years) and discrimination continued for the next 100 years or so. This discrimination was primarily based on black people, yes the Anglo Saxon population looked down on the Irish, Jewish, Italians and the other immigrant groups but they werent restricted on schooling or housing or even how they were seen in a court of law like the black population was.

If you somehow honestly believe this BS that Irish people suffered worse or even equally as Africans from slavery then i think you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror.

asdasd · 08-10-2009 8:40pm

How this fact proves Irish people suffered more from slavery than Africans is beyond me?

Aruably we suffered more from tenant farming, penal laws, and famine than Africans as a whole suffered from slavery. Although I suppose it depends on whether we include inter-African slavery. Either way our populationis less than it used to be, which is fairly unique except for Peoples who were totally victims of geneocide. like Native Americans.

Slavery of Africans was abolished in 1865 in the US (i have no idea what % of slaves were non-african but id be suprised if it was greater than 1% during those years) and discrimination continued for the next 100 years or so.

That would be relevent to race relations in Ireland, how now? the Russians discriminated against the Volga Germans. Also unrelated.

Kooli · 09-10-2009 9:49am

i hate these 'double standards' arguments that always pop up in any thread about racism (or sexism for that matter - "If that ad was about a woman there'd be uproar, so I am now offended" etc. etc.)

You cannot take these examples (MOBOs, black history month etc) out of their cultural and historical context. The reason these things were generated by the black community is because 'music' and 'history' used to be basically 'white music' and 'white history' even thought that wasn't explicit. All types of mainstream culture was biased towards the white perspective. So this was the black community's way of redressing this balance and bringing their own culture to the fore.

Because white music and white history are already the cultural norm, there would be no reason to have 'white history month' without it having a racist agenda.

The fact is that the MOBO's do NOT actually make you feel oppressed, discriminated against or belittled as a white man. You are just annoyed at the double standard. You don't watch the MOBOs and feel uncomfortable or upset that your race is not being represented. You just use it as an excuse to belittle the arguments of those who are ACTUALLY discriminated against.

Where there is a power imbalance, that is when the 'double standard' is understandable, reasonable and a good idea.

asdasd · 09-10-2009 10:06am

You cannot take these examples (MOBOs, black history month etc) out of their cultural and historical context. The reason these things were generated by the black community is because 'music' and 'history' used to be basically 'white music' and 'white history' even thought that wasn't explicit. All types of mainstream culture was biased towards the white perspective. So this was the black community's way of redressing this balance and bringing their own culture to the fore.

Define "white" music. Take into account Hungarian, Finnish, Russian, Basque, and other folk music. Discuss if any of these musics are "dominant". World dominant, or otherwise.

The fact is that the MOBO's do NOT actually make you feel oppressed, discriminated against or belittled as a white man. You are just annoyed at the double standard. You don't watch the MOBOs and feel uncomfortable or upset that your race is not being represented. You just use it as an excuse to belittle the arguments of those who are ACTUALLY discriminated against

I would say that a American Black music is far more dominant than most white music, it is in fact one of the most dominating forms of cultural expressions of music anywhere.

I'll believe the opposite when I hear Hungarian, or Scottish folk is being played from the cars of Detroit, or Baltimore - as opposed to Hip-Hop in Budapest and the Scottish highlands.

But , as I said, define 'white".

Immediately after the post where I ask how the position of blacks in America has anthing to do with Ireland you come out with spiel which makes everybody in Europe exactly the same as America. We are all whites, ignoring the specific ethnicities.

That's the real cultural imperialism of America, we abandon our own history ( lest we get angry about the English, that would be racist) and we get to feel guilt and "dominent" about a culture ( American) which is not ours.

f*ck that. American black culture is world dominent. Most of Europe is not.

Get a new script. Try and think outside sociology 101.

Kooli · 09-10-2009 10:24am

asdasd wrote: »

That's the real cultural imperialism of America, we abandon our own history ( lest we get angry about the English, that would be racist) and we get to feel guilt and "dominent" about a culture ( American) which is not ours.

.

I was talking about America and the UK as that is where the MOBOs and Black History month are. We do not have these things. People just feel they need to feel hard done by when they hear about them even though they are not part of the culture from which it has arisen.

Yes black music is now dominant. But that is now. Remember that Michael Jackson was the first black artist to be shown on MTV! And that was only when he got SO popular they didn't really have a choice!

In western countries, the dominant culture is white. If you don't agree with that, then this conversation is over frankly. So promotion of a culture which has experienced serious oppression or discrimination is not about racism, it is about providing a forum for that culture to be publicly represented and celebrated. And Black History month is about redressing the balance where the history books have essentially provided an account of history from a white perspective.

Yes there are lots of different types of 'white' music (or Music Of White Origin). Similarly there are lots of different types of 'black' music (or Music Of Black Origin). What is your point?

My point is that people CHOOSE to feel offended by such things, rather than ACTUALLY feeling hurt, dismissed or pushed aside by such things. To compare this to the actual hurt experienced by minority communities is pretty clueless. It is not 'the same'. The MOBOs are not a mainstream music awards ceremony that excludes white people (and as we've said, they actually don't exclude white people). If they were the only music awards that mattered (the equivalent of the oscars), then you might have a case.

Hazys · 09-10-2009 9:16pm

asdasd wrote: »

Aruably we suffered more from tenant farming, penal laws, and famine than Africans as a whole suffered from slavery. Fair enough but thats not what i was arguing. I was arguing what ArthurGuiness said that Irish people suffered more from slavery than africans. Although I suppose it depends on whether we include inter-African slavery. Either way our populationis less than it used to be, which is fairly unique except for Peoples who were totally victims of geneocide. like Native Americans.

Ireland's population went from around 8 million to 2 million in the space of 50 years during the famine which is pretty dramatic but again it wasnt the argument.

That would be relevent to race relations in Ireland, how now? I wasnt the one who took this thread off topic and boy how its gon off topic! the Russians discriminated against the Volga Germans. Also unrelated.

.

ArthurGuinness · 10-10-2009 2:08am

Hazys - You would make a great politician,you are great at twisting words, misquoting people, completely dismissing anything other than your views as complete rubbish and general bull****, re-read my post and my replies a couple more times, you haven't listen or tried to understand what I have had to say on this topic, you simply accused me of being a racist and tried to turn this whole thing into an argument. I look forward to seeing you on the back benches very soon.

Nodin · 12-10-2009 1:55pm

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Its to celebrate black music though, why is there a need to design an awards ceremony around colour/ethnicity??
Country music is not racist because it's a genre not a racial group
I don’t think one skin colour or race of people has the right to claim a certain type of music of being exclusively their own..

They don't. Amy Winehouse was at it a few years back and shes Jewish, for fecks sake....

Fink Goddie wrote: »

It shouldnt take another 350 years for them to get that chip off their shoulders?? ..

Going by this thread, theres quite a few with chips on their shoulders, and they aren't "black"......

Fink Goddie · 12-10-2009 2:36pm

Nodin wrote: »

Going by this thread, theres quite a few with chips on their shoulders, and they aren't "black"......

Yep McCain over chips are usually a yellowy colour

major bill · 12-10-2009 2:46pm

Wicknight wrote: »

.
The thing is though the security guard probably doesn't go "Tut, white people!"

The issue is that one shouldn't let a black person (or anyone else) making fake racism claims cloud ones judgement about black people in general. That is in itself racism.

id bet he would say ''tut little knacker'' though.

meditraitor · 13-10-2009 3:46pm

There is no cure for racism boys and girls, the same as there is no cure for stupidity.
Define a race and invite racism, too late to turn back.

The only solution I can think of is a prolonged period of interracial riding to wipe all the distinctions out, or maybe clones.

asdasd · 13-10-2009 3:54pm

Clones, eh? I can see how that would help.

/not really.

meditraitor · 13-10-2009 4:01pm

asdasd wrote: »

Clones, eh? I can see how that would help.

/not really.

I didnt really think that one out

foxcomm · 03-11-2009 5:00am

This post has been deleted.

Race Relations in Ireland

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