"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Flukey · 25-11-2011 2:55pm #1

I am just about to bring my new Leap card into the strange world of public transport to test it. There are already several Leap threads going and we've already had some points about its usage raised in them. Maybe we can keep this thread for more specific feedback by the people who have actually got a card and leave the more general discussions on it to the other threads. So if you have some specific feedback from actually using the card put it in here, as briefly as possible. Then we can all use it when we are feeding back our experiences in the questionnaires we are all supposed to be getting. If anything arises here that people would like to discuss in more detail, switch to one of the other threads which already have a broad range of discussion about it that is likely to be relevant. Anyway, my Leap card and I are about to head out. Wish us luck!:D

Centrocampista · 25-11-2011 4:24pm

Just got the new card. Wait for this - If I want to avoid the queue and use the machine on the right I have to pay €2.20
(Only €1.90 with the old 10 journey travel 90)
If im on a shorter journey I have to queue up and tell the driver my destination.
I presume that I have to pay again if I change bus !

LXFlyer · 25-11-2011 4:41pm

Exactly.

Again people need to understand that this is a test of the epurse facility.

The final setup could be completely different.

monument · 25-11-2011 4:50pm

Centrocampista wrote: »

I presume that I have to pay again if I change bus !

Yes!

Even if the official record of the project shows otherwise, it is fairly clear that one company was kicking and screaming trying not to have changes made. Guess who!

markpb · 25-11-2011 5:58pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Exactly. Again people need to understand that this is a test of the epurse facility. The final setup could be completely different.

Would you accept a wager that DB will not change their pricing policy for at least the first year of the projects life?

They've had several years to decide what to do when ITS launches, why do you think they'll change their minds suddenly after it's launched? Alternatively, if you think they do have a plan for the future, why are they testing it with a different pricing scheme?

AngryLips · 25-11-2011 6:03pm

Flukey wrote: »

So if you have some specific feedback from actually using the card put it in here, as briefly as possible. Then we can all use it when we are feeding back our experiences in the questionnaires we are all supposed to be getting.

Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose if we all give the same feedback?

noelfirl · 25-11-2011 7:22pm

monument wrote: »

Yes!

Even if the official record of the project shows otherwise, it is fairly clear that one company was kicking and screaming trying not to have changes made. Guess who!

One company was probably kicking and screaming because they know that their subsidy is not going to increase in the short-medium term and that it may in fact go down. The stage fare system is antiquated and innefficient but the reality is that a flat fare may well negatively affect their revenue. We would all be delighted to wake up to a simplistic flat fare one morning but the politics seem to dictate otherwise.

Considering DB have the Travel 90, I don't think they're that opposed to the idea of flat fare/complimentary change. By all acounts they had ideas about a flat fare back at the time of the euro changeover but it was vetoed by DoT (again based on budget considerations).

Flukey · 25-11-2011 8:52pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose if we all give the same feedback?

It is not exactly going to be like that. The idea is that we will see a bigger range of feedback here and that will get us all thinking and seeing how things work for others. We will get different perspectives on the issues and we'll all learn. Looking through the various Leap threads has already highlighted different things for me. We will still have issues that are more relevant to each of us. As a result, at the end of it all I still think we'll each be giving different feedback, but we'll be more informed and do it better.

curryman · 26-11-2011 12:07am

Got My leap card today. One of the things they want us to do is top up the card (optional).
Yet www.payzone.ie leap agents list doesn't seem up to date. I know Eason's Heuston station have the terminal to top up the leap cards so i wonder how many other shops have been left off the list.
I know its still in the final test stage but you would think the topup agents list would be up to date.
Anyone know of other shops not on the list

Mushy · 26-11-2011 12:36am

Used on luas today. Very straight forward and saves me 35 cent on a single journey.

Looking forward to using it on the bus, think thats the main crux of the card for now.

LXFlyer · 26-11-2011 11:22am

markpb wrote: »

Would you accept a wager that DB will not change their pricing policy for at least the first year of the projects life?

They've had several years to decide what to do when ITS launches, why do you think they'll change their minds suddenly after it's launched? Alternatively, if you think they do have a plan for the future, why are they testing it with a different pricing scheme?

I'd accept that the NTA decide DB's fare structure and not DB.

At the end of the day I'd far prefer a simple fare structure, such as a flat fare. But if that means that DB farebox income were to drop significantly on top of the several million per annum additional overheads to run this scheme then frankly it isn't a runner.

DB relies on the farebox income to run the service given subsidies are falling even further - if that were to drop significantly I could only see one result - more service reductions.

It's a catch 22 situation.

In the current economic situation I don't think the company can afford that risk?

Neither you nor I know what is planned in the New Year when cash fares go up - perhaps the LEAP card will retain the current prices.

AlekSmart · 26-11-2011 12:56pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd accept that the NTA decide DB's fare structure and not DB.

Neither you nor I know what is planned in the New Year when cash fares go up - perhaps the LEAP card will retain the current prices.

The current informed speculation (ie:educated gossip :P) is that Leo V's Departmental thinking is leaning towards a 20% atb increase in Cash fares.

If this is true then the level of any increase in Off-Bus Ticket Sales could still be significant.

It's also my opinion that the arrival of the NTA on-scene has introduced a grey-area as to who is now responsible for Off-Bus Ticket Prices.....there may well be a form of patch-protection going on at the moment regarding this.

SandyfordGuy · 28-11-2011 9:16am

Used it on a bus with the non driver validator and Irish rail this morning, no real problems, apart from the guy at the gate who looked at me rather odd as if he didn't know what it was.

SandyfordGuy · 28-11-2011 11:55am

List of Leap Card agents now been updated on http://www.payzone.ie/ - huge choice now.

emco · 28-11-2011 11:57am

Got one of these the other day, i use the bus every day and it is dreadful that there is no discount on the fare, its the same as paying cash. Its far cheaper to get the travel 90.

The fact that its an integrated ticket doesn't justify the expense. For people that have shorter bus trips it could be helpful as there is no ticket that really accommodates them, although this is not an intentional design feature.

How do people find the pricing on train or luas?

LXFlyer · 28-11-2011 12:03pm

I would imagine that the discounts will be implemented when the 2012 fare increases take place.

SandyfordGuy · 28-11-2011 12:06pm

Train pricing is the same as the Irish rail smartcard pricing, not used it on Luas yet, but I assume it is similar to the LUAS Smartcard pricing?

robd · 28-11-2011 12:25pm

markpb wrote: »

Would you accept a wager that DB will not change their pricing policy for at least the first year of the projects life?

Based on how the information leaflet that accompanied the card is worded, I definitely wouldn't be betting against you.

It was worded and laid out, that if you're using one of the stage fares, 1.20, 1.65, 1.85 or shopper fare then go to driver. If you're using >13 stage fare then tap card on validator on right hand side to get 2.20 fare.

Unfortunately, I see ZERO discount on the 3 stage fares or shopper fare for use of LEAP.

Remember Dublin Bus carry 120 million passengers a year for Irish Rails 38 million total (approx 20 million DART) and Luas's 25 million. So they can and will push against this if they see loss of revenue.

robd · 28-11-2011 12:28pm

Got mine today. Worked fine on Dublin Bus.

Only hassle I had was with driver trying to communicate with me that he'd like ticket placed flat on top of ticket machine reader rather than just held to it. Consisted of a series of hand singles and grunts rather than clear spoken words. Would lead me to question training drivers have had?

SandyfordGuy · 28-11-2011 12:38pm

I'll be trying the same myself tonight to actually get a 1.85 fare and I'll report back how it goes.

KD345 · 28-11-2011 2:38pm

Apologies if I missed it in one of the threads, but what is the website for the Leap Card?

AlekSmart · 28-11-2011 2:41pm

robd wrote: »

Got mine today. Worked fine on Dublin Bus.

Only hassle I had was with driver trying to communicate with me that he'd like ticket placed flat on top of ticket machine reader rather than just held to it. Consisted of a series of hand singles and grunts rather than clear spoken words. Would lead me to question training drivers have had?

Hmmmm I'm assuming.....no wait...HOPING..that it's hand signals you refer to....:eek:

Funnily enough,the current range of SmartCards tend to fail when users attempt to "Swipe" them across the remote reader.

I experience extreme difficulty getting users to treat the Smart Card Symbol as a Bullseye by slapping the card up to it.

Many people treat it in a reflex manner by swiping and I see this being a problem with ticket-machine transactions too.

Only Northern Irish folk appear to understand how-stuff-works as they religiously (:p) place their Senior Smart Passes directly onto the reader,totally unaware that the Free-State technology will not communicate with Her Majestys Government version...:D

A great learning opportunity was wasted by not calling the system the Bullseye card or similar and utilising the Dartboard symbol to its fullest...ho-hum....:cool:

The other lesson in all of this is the total nonsense which Driver Interaction actually represents in a system designed to speed up and automate the entire process...It's like buying a Ferrari and yoking up a donkey to pull you along the M50....

SandyfordGuy · 28-11-2011 2:53pm

KD345 wrote: »

Apologies if I missed it in one of the threads, but what is the website for the Leap Card?

It will be leapcard.ie eventually when the public launch happens.

They are on twitter at the moment http://www.twitter.com/leapcard

robd · 28-11-2011 3:05pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hmmmm I'm assuming.....no wait...HOPING..that it's hand signals you refer to....:eek:

Oops. I do indeed mean signals. Absolutely the driver interaction part in the first place is terrible, however it is what it is.

I think they need some kind of signage for launch that asks the user to place their card flat on reader (with pictures) rather than swiping it as you might for accessing a door. I also think drivers need to be instructed to use clear English in asking passenger to place card flat on reader as passengers are not mind readers. I'm very tech savvy and I didn't intuitively know this as most Near Field technology cards can just be swiped which is what I intuitively did. Obviously this situation is different as a button needs to be pressed to deduct fare but your average passenger will be totally unaware of this.

AlekSmart · 28-11-2011 3:22pm

robd wrote: »

Oops. I do indeed mean signals. Absolutely the driver interaction part in the first place is terrible, however it is what it is.

I think they need some kind of signage for launch that asks the user to place their card flat on reader (with pictures) rather than swiping it as you might for accessing a door. I also think drivers need to be instructed to use clear English in asking passenger to place card flat on reader as passengers are not mind readers. I'm very tech savvy and I didn't intuitively know this as most Near Field technology cards can just be swiped which is what I intuitively did. Obviously this situation is different as a button needs to be pressed to deduct fare but your average passenger will be totally unaware of this.

I agree Robd....€40+Million and 12 years is surely time enough to have a few oul Graphics lashed up for the launch.......?

Flukey · 28-11-2011 3:27pm

I used mine on the bus today. For the purpose of testing the system I went up to the driver and told him my destination. He said it if was a full fare I could do it directly at the normal validator. That's fair enough, but brings us back to the problem of when is it a full fare, in terms of stages travelled? Most people wouldn't know how many stages they go and the breakdown between fares in terms of stages travelled. So the argument for the flat fare gets some weight. Of course on the whole flat fare, is it fair to charge someone who goes two or three stops the same as someone who goes from one terminus to the other, but that is another debate. Let's keep this as much to the Leap card as possible.

AlekSmart · 28-11-2011 3:33pm

Flukey wrote: »

I used mine on the bus today. For the purpose of testing the system I went up to the driver and told him my destination. He said it if was a full fare I could do it directly at the normal validator. That's fair enough, but brings us back to the problem of when is it a full fare, in terms of stages travelled? Most people wouldn't know how many stages they go and the breakdown between fares in terms of stages travelled. So the argument for the flat fare gets some weight. Of course on the whole flat fare, is it fair to charge someone who goes two or three stops the same as someone who goes from one terminus to the other, but that is another debate. Let's keep this as much to the Leap card as possible.

True Flukey,But that debate needed to be well and truly nailed down before introducing Leap as a product.

It's not as if there has not been time to do the spadework.

What we now have is an emasculated half cocked semi-automated automatic system which could have spelled the beginning of REAL improvements to a centuries old system devised for TWO-Person operation.....We need to get a grip....FAST !

markpb · 28-11-2011 3:36pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

What we now have is an emasculated half cocked semi-automated automatic system which could have spelled the beginning of REAL improvements to a centuries old system devised for TWO-Person operation.....We need to get a grip....FAST !

You know quite well that this won't happen. There was _never_ any intention of changing the fare/ticket situation - the card is just a carrier for the existing tickets along with an ePurse which will make life easier for people making 1.20/1.65 trips.

The Rook · 28-11-2011 3:43pm

I've a question that hasn't been covered .... after the testing period finishes (6th December or thereabouts?) will I still be able to use my Leap Card on the machines or will I have to wait until it's going into another set of testing exercises before I can use it again?

So far though everythings going fine with mine though, no hassles at all.

monument · 28-11-2011 3:48pm

Flukey wrote: »

...Of course on the whole flat fare, is it fair to charge someone who goes two or three stops the same as someone who goes from one terminus to the other, but that is another debate. Let's keep this as much to the Leap card as possible.

It's a key issue at the hart of the Leap card's use and, given Dublin Bus' central road in public transport, also a key part to the question if the benefits of spending so much to bring in the system in the first place was worth it.

The Rook wrote: »

I've a question that hasn't been covered .... after the testing period finishes (6th December or thereabouts?) will I still be able to use my Leap Card on the machines or will I have to wait until it's going into another set of testing exercises before I can use it again?

The system is live. This test phase -- really a soft launch -- is the final test phase.

Flukey · 28-11-2011 3:56pm

There wasn't any mention in the documentation that came with the Leap card for volunteers as to whether it would be possible to keep it and use it after the test period, or if it would purely have validity until the 7th of December. I presume we can continue to use it as there is no indication of it being a test card and it said we can top it up, and certainly if there are ones actually on sale. Typically, www.leapcard.ie is still not working, where possibly some of that kind of information might be available.

Aard · 28-11-2011 6:28pm

Flukey wrote: »

There wasn't any mention in the documentation that came with the Leap card for volunteers as to whether it would be possible to keep it and use it after the test period, or if it would purely have validity until the 7th of December.

From what I can make out, the 7 Dec deadline is when you have to have completed your online survey. The credit will remain on the card, which will still be usable afterwards.

Aard · 28-11-2011 6:48pm

I used my leap card twice today on DB. All fairly smooth with no real problems. €1.85 fares both times.

The first driver seemed pretty enthusiastic about me using the card. Like somebody above, I held my card at an angle to the reader (i.e. with my thumb under it) but he said to hold it flat against the reader. I think this is a bit odd, but maybe they can increase the RFID range on it or something. It'd be handy not to have to take the card out of your wallet too.

On the way back the busstop was pretty busy, and it took the driver a second to realise that I wasn't paying with cash. (I assume this is just teething problems though.) There was a kind of awkward pause when I left the card on the reader for too long, and he said cheerily "the fare should be taken off now!". There was no beep or anything like there is on the other readers. I think this is a major flaw because a beep would let you know that the right amount has been deducted and the transaction is complete. It's a punctual end to the cumbersome interaction with the driver.

So in all a good experience, and kudos to the friendly helpful drivers.

However, I still can't get over the stupidity of the €2.20 fare for the right-hand-side reader. How am I to know that I'm travelling 14+ stages without asking the driver in the first place. Messy. It should be €1.90, which I'd almost prefer to pay instead of the €1.85 for a few reasons:

It's only €0.05 more. You'd have to travel 37 times before you've "wasted" a fare.
No interaction with the driver. Not a dig at drivers, but it means I get my seat faster.
I'd often have stuff to do in a few places around town, and even though I might plan to go to Parnell St I might get off at SSG -- or vice versa. The difference between the two is €1.85 vs €2.30. A €1.90 ticket would allow sponteneity without wasting a huge amount of money. (Or indeed risking a fine.)

goingnowhere · 28-11-2011 7:00pm

Aard wrote: »

There was no beep or anything like there is on the other readers. I think this is a major flaw because a beep would let you know that the right amount has been deducted and the transaction is complete. It's a punctual end to the cumbersome interaction with the driver.

There is a beep, a green light and the fare charged and the stage number and name are shown on the two line screen just above the smart card target. The beep isn't very loud

The card works fine through a wallet, provided you place the wallet down with the card as close to the machine as possible. If there is any other RFID cards in place, odds are it won't work

Flukey · 28-11-2011 7:25pm

It is a bit indeterminate when you are quickly scanning it with the driver. I used it on the bus on Friday, and I wasn't 100% sure it scanned properly, although the driver seemed happy, though a little surprised to see a Leap card. My doubts were confirmed later when I used it on the Luas and I saw by my balance that it had not been debited on the bus. (I have my annual pass anyway, so I wasn't fare-dodging

) That is another reason why I was more careful about it today on the bus to make sure it scanned with the driver. It's no surprise to any of us that Dublin Bus seems to be the weak link in the whole system in lots of ways.

AlekSmart · 28-11-2011 7:50pm

markpb wrote: »

You know quite well that this won't happen. There was _never_ any intention of changing the fare/ticket situation - the card is just a carrier for the existing tickets along with an ePurse which will make life easier for people making 1.20/1.65 trips.

Indeed Markpb,but knowing quite well,yet remaining thoroughly disgusted that the expensive exalted beings in charge of the ITS project refused to contemplate taking the principle to it's fullest are two very different sensations.

I would also question just how much easier the €1.20/€1.65 payers lives will be,as this current vision of Leap does nothing,of itself to move them onto SmartCard technology per se.

If you want them to come then DISCOUNT IT :eek:

This would attract the volumes required to challenge the reality of long Dwell Times,but,would also rapidly underline the nonsense of the approach-the-bench situation we now appear to have in perpetuity.

Aard: So in all a good experience, and kudos to the friendly helpful drivers.

However, I still can't get over the stupidity of the €2.20 fare for the right-hand-side reader. How am I to know that I'm travelling 14+ stages without asking the driver in the first place. Messy. It should be €1.90, which I'd almost prefer to pay instead of the €1.85 for a few reasons:

It's only €0.05 more. You'd have to travel 37 times before you've "wasted" a fare.
No interaction with the driver. Not a dig at drivers, but it means I get my seat faster.
I'd often have stuff to do in a few places around town, and even though I might plan to go to Parnell St I might get off at SSG -- or vice versa. The difference between the two is €1.85 vs €2.30. A €1.90 ticket would allow sponteneity without wasting a huge amount of money. (Or indeed risking a fine.)

Well put Aard,and one would hope these sentiments are noted well by the ITS board and acted upon.

What few appear to realise is that 21st Century ITS/Leap technology cannot be simply overllaid atop a 19th Century Fare Stage system and expected to work with any degree of achievable benefit to anybody.

Aard's well and simply made point regarding Fare Stage Identification has been repeatedly made by myself and others on here and elsewhere for years now yet remains totally unappreciated never mind unaddressed.

I would venture to suggest that Leap operation,as currently configured with Bus Atha Cliath is unsustainable unless the company immediately re-identify the Fare-Stage locations they so thoroughly erased in recent times.

No interaction with the driver,means I get my seat faster.

For crying out loud,could it be made any clearer,Aard even makes a nice marketable PR blurb capable of being imprinted on every Leap Card as a marketing tag....IF the 12 years and €40 Million had produced somebody who actually used the bloody Bus service and understood the futility of persevering with oul God's time in the face of high sped electronics...it's worse than GUBU I tell ya..:D

Goingnowhere:The card works fine through a wallet, provided you place the wallet down with the card as close to the machine as possible. If there is any other RFID cards in place, odds are it won't work

It is worthwhile reinforcing Goingnowhere's experience in the light of the Driver interaction thing here.....If you have an IE or Luas Smartcard in the same wallet/purse compartment they will conflict and result in an error message....Result= DELAY.

Tip-Keep the Leap Card in a seperate fold-out section if you don't want to end up fumbling for cards...oh wait....fumbling for......eh...I thought that was all finished with now....??????

Just for clarification,I think the Leap Card represents the first REAL opportunity to revolutionize how Dubliners use their Public Transport,BUT It needs to be appreciated as the technological marvel it is,rather than being seen as some form of bothersome new technology to buttress a long outdated "system" of limited value in the 21st Century.

AngryLips · 28-11-2011 8:06pm

Aard wrote: »

I still can't get over the stupidity of the €2.20 fare for the right-hand-side reader.

The card isn't going to result in more people queueing for the driver on the left over the tag-on facility on the right as it's only an epurse for the moment. Obviously, it's a missed opportunity that will no doubt soon be addressed.

The Oyster card works the same way in that you can't just swipe over the reader, it needs to be held for a moment.

The one thing I'm not clear on is whether or not the leap card has a negative balance facility like the luas smart card.

Aard · 28-11-2011 8:07pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

There is a beep, a green light and the fare charged and the stage number and name are shown on the two line screen just above the smart card target. The beep isn't very loud

The card works fine through a wallet, provided you place the wallet down with the card as close to the machine as possible. If there is any other RFID cards in place, odds are it won't work

The fare, balance, and stage name is handy alright. I mustn't have heard the beep over the hustle and bustle.

I'll try the card through my wallet so. I got the impression that the card itself had to be physically flat against the reader, but it was probably just the driver being cautious.

ScouseMouse · 28-11-2011 8:09pm

The Leap posters and signs were delivered to my shop on sunday evening.

The girl told me it was going to be in full use on monday week.

AlekSmart · 28-11-2011 8:23pm

AngryLips wrote: »

The one thing I'm not clear on is whether or not the leap card has a negative balance facility like the luas smart card.

Yes AngryLips,Leap will allow the transaction which puts it into negative equity,then debiting the top-up amount for the shortfall.

bk · 28-11-2011 10:44pm

Well I gave Leap a thorough testing in Dublin City over the past two hours and so far it only gets a barely passing market. Lots of trouble with it.

Firstly my story started three days ago when I purchased a Leap card in the Mace shop by James Hospital. However I was charged only €5 which is just the deposit, so the card wasn't activated and had no credit.

I couldn't activate it or load it at a LUAS machine.

Then yesterday I went into Londis next store to the Costa Coffee and Starbucks by College Green. They had never heard of the Leap card, but I told them it was just like the LUAS card and could they try. They obliged and to every ones surprise it worked fine and they could activate it and top it up.

However they made a mistake. While I asked for €10 top up, they charged it like it was a new card (but I didn't get a new card), with €5 deposit, so I only ended up with €5 credit.

So far I'd spent €15 on this and ended up with only €5 credit.

Interestingly the very nice guys in Londis were very interested in this new card and we spent a few minutes chatting about it. At first they assumed you would get a cheaper fare for using multiple trips. When I told them it doesn't work like that, you pay for each trip separately, they were very disappointed and said "what is the point so?"

I think that is going to be the response of many ordinary people to this.

Tried it on the bus and it worked fine, but it took the driver some time to realise what I was doing. Time for me to pay was actually slower then cash!!

Also I didn't hear the beep when the transaction completed, any time I used it on the bus. It isn't obvious when you can remove your card and this slows things down.

Second time I paid on the bus, I was charged twice!! I put the card on the reader and the driver seemed to charged me twice, he actually ended up printing a ticket that said ITS purchase, with the bus number, route, Leap card number, previous balance, etc.

While the info was interesting, by doing so I was charged €1.65 twice for the same journey.

On arriving in town I took a stroll over to the LUAS machines, I no had only 5 cent balance (having been charged €1.65 three times for two journeys) and I was able to top up no problem using the LUAS machine.

I was then able to Tag On, travel to Connolly, and Tag Off without any problems.

At Connolly I tried the Leap card in the IR ticket machines, but they didn't recognise it. I can confirm the same at Tara and Pearse station ticket machines. So it seems the IR machines aren't compatible with Leap yet. This is a very big pity for people who normally use DART, Rail to travel. They have to go to Luas machines or DB shops to top up. Hopefully this is just a temporary issue.

However I was able to tag on to the DART at Connolly no problem and Tag Off at Pearse no problem, so it seems the gates have no problem reading and using the Leap cards.

I then took Dublin Bike to cycle back to O'Connell St. Amazing how much faster it is then the DART or Bus. They really need to add Dublin Bike to the Leap card.

Good news, I was able to use the Leap card on LUAS and DART without taking the card out of the wallet. Even with the Dublin Bikes card in the same wallet. Didn't try it on the bus in my wallet, don't want to give the drivers a heart attack until they are use to it.

So after my adventures, not including the unnecessary journeys, I'm down nearly €10 due to badly trained store and bus staff.

So in summary, lots of bugs in the system:

1) Store staff are inadequately trained in the card.
2) Luas machines should be able to activate and top up even inactivated cards.
3) Bus Drivers are inadequately trained in the card (e.g. charged twice).
4) The three times I used it on the bus, it took longer then to pay by cash. This card might actually increase bus dwell times rather hen reduce it.
5) The beep at the end of the transaction on the bus needs to be much louder.
6) The Irish Rail ticket machines don't recognise the card and you can't top it up on them.

A few other things, I think Luas will need more tag on and tag off machines at stops if this becomes popular. Likewise I think Dublin Bus should install some automated Leap ticket machines at busy locations like the DB shop on O'Connell St, Dublin Airport and perhaps even some on the street at busy locations.

I saw the bloody results of a fight on Abbey Street next to the station with the LUAS security and Revenue Protection guys busily looking the other way.
The Abbey streets stops are really very unsafe places and need to be heavily policed by the Gardai (preferably by a dedicated transport unit).

Connolly and Pearse (in particular) should be way better sign posted for entrance and exits to the DART platforms, as a non regular user, they are quiet confusing.

bk · 28-11-2011 10:45pm

Oh and is there anyway for me to send my feedback to the NTA?

www.leapcard.ie isn't working and there is no feedback form for leap on www.transportforireland.ie

AlekSmart · 28-11-2011 11:00pm

bk wrote: »

Firstly my story started three days ago when I purchased a Leap card in the Mace shop by James Hospital. However I was charged only €5 which is just the deposit, so the card wasn't activated and had no credit.

This I fear is the source of at least some of the issues you've had bk.

I suspect that MACE outlet jumped the gun by retailing Leap stock during the final test phase....(The "chosen" 500).

This could well entail your particular Leap card being now a corrupted one in some way,which may result in a total-failure during some upgrade phase later on.

I'd be inclined to ditch it and purchase another one after the official intro is announced ?

bk · 28-11-2011 11:06pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

This I fear is the source of at least some of the issues you've had bk.

Honestly I don't think so. Once activated and topped up, it worked fine.

While the mace shop might have jumped the gun, I don't expect my card will be any different to Leap cards that go on sale officially.

That is why I'd like to make sure the NTA get my feedback. I believe my experience will be the closest to what ordinary people will experience when it goes on general sale. Rather then the 500 "testers" who got pre-activated and pre-topped up cards.

I think my experience is a more "real world" test.

It would be interesting to hear if anyone else has tried their Leap card in the Irish Rail ticket machines?

markpb · 28-11-2011 11:07pm

bk wrote: »

Firstly my story started three days ago when I purchased a Leap card in the Mace shop by James Hospital. However I was charged only €5 which is just the deposit, so the card wasn't activated and had no credit.

Like I keep saying, the system is in pilot, the cards aren't available to the public and the shop shouldn't have sold you the card yet. The whole idea of the private pilot is to allow time for shop and bus staff to be trained up and get used to it. If you jump the gun and barge in on a pilot, you have to accept that there will be problems (this is why the pilot cards are pre-loaded with €20). Clearly it's not your fault that the shop staff sold you a card that they shouldn't have but you've been told here several times that it's not a public launch

I couldn't activate it or load it at a LUAS machine.

There's no need because the shops are meant to activate the cards.

I was able to use the Leap card on LUAS and DART without taking the card out of the wallet. Even with the Dublin Bikes card in the same wallet.

I'm surprised at that but I suspect it won't happen every time. If I have two Luas cards in my wallet, the machines will sometimes pick one at random and other times reject both (as is the spec for ISO14443).

A few other things, I think Luas will need more tag on and tag off machines at stops if this becomes popular. Likewise I think Dublin Bus should install some automated Leap ticket machines at busy locations like the DB shop on O'Connell St, Dublin Airport and perhaps even some on the street at busy locations.

I totally agree on all points! If nothing else, RPA need to move the Luas card points to better locations - at present people at the end doors have to walk back towards the middle of the tam (slightly) to tag off. DB already have ticket machines at the airport so I presume they can be modified to sell Leap tickets. Issuing smart cards from a TVM is more challenging from a security perspective but it can be done.

bk · 28-11-2011 11:18pm

markpb wrote: »

Like I keep saying, the system is in pilot, the cards aren't available to the public and the shop shouldn't have sold you the card yet. The whole idea of the private pilot is to allow time for shop and bus staff to be trained up and get used to it. If you jump the gun and barge in on a pilot, you have to accept that there will be problems (this is why the pilot cards are pre-loaded with €20). Clearly it's not your fault that the shop staff sold you a card that they shouldn't have but you've been told here several times that it's not a public launch

Yes, but I would contend that my feedback is still probably some of the most useful they could receive.

At least now they have a few weeks to put even more effort into training shop staff and bus drivers and hopefully fix the IR machines.

I don't mind being a guinea pig to help make this the best it can be.

If anyone from the NTA wants to pm me for the details of my card, etc. they are welcome to do so in confidence of course.

markpb · 28-11-2011 11:20pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, but I would contend that my feedback is still probably some of the most useful they could receive.

I'm not suggesting that at all, I'm just hoping you don't write off the project based on your test experiences

AlekSmart · 28-11-2011 11:22pm

Part of bk's problem could well be that the Pilot 500 group of tickets have a specific encoding which your "rogue" one does not.

I would imagine that the loading process is also capable of software upgrading relating to the chip so that adds perhaps a possibility that the RFID chip is not fully operational ?

markpb · 28-11-2011 11:24pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Part of bk's problem could well be that the Pilot 500 group of tickets have a specific encoding which your "rogue" one does not.

I'm sure that the shop forgot to activate the card, nothing more

For security/stock reasons, almost all stored value/transit cards are issued to the shops/TVMs de-activated.

Aard · 28-11-2011 11:26pm

bk wrote: »

Oh and is there anyway for me to send my feedback to the NTA?

www.leapcard.ie isn't working and there is no feedback form for leap on www.transportforireland.ie

On the info sheet the 500 of us got, there's an email address: customer.care@leapcard.ie

I haven't tried it yet, so no idea if it is active.

bk · 28-11-2011 11:35pm

markpb wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that at all, I'm just hoping you don't write off the project based on your test experiences

Oh, not at all, I'm very excited about this.

That is why I'm giving my feedback, to help it be the best it can be.

Aard wrote: »

On the info sheet the 500 of us got, there's an email address: customer.care@leapcard.ie

Cheers I'll try that.

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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