Child sex abuse - UK elite stayed silent

steelcityblues · 07-01-2011 2:54am #1

Damning reports in several early editions of the papers about not only the sexual abuse of several teenage girls at the hands of British Pakistanis, but the failure of charities and agencies to address the number of sexual abuse offenders from this ethnic group.

Echoes of the culture of secrecy involving our own Catholic Church and leading authorities for far too many decades here. Expect more reports in the coming days!

But in 17 court cases since 1997 where groups of men were prosecuted for grooming 11 to 16 year old girls on the street, 53 of the 56 people found guilty were Asian, 50 of them Muslim, while just three were white, The Times reported.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8240202/Cover-up-claims-over-Asian-sex-gangs.html

Victor · 07-01-2011 3:06am

The piece is rather fractured and seems to relate to only one area, which may be predominantly Muslim.

steelcityblues · 07-01-2011 3:09am

Victor wrote: »

The piece is rather fractured and seems to relate to only one area, which may be predominantly Muslim.

So those court cases statistics in the article are not a cause for concern to you then?

Wolfe Tone · 07-01-2011 4:05am

Why the hell are there so many of these sickos all over the world?

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2011 8:13am

Wow, talk about a sensationalist thread title.

Lumen · 07-01-2011 2:41pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

So those court cases statistics in the article are not a cause for concern to you then?

"Court cases". That would be the criminal justice system in action. The police have known about this for some time, and have been dealing with it. It just doesn't get talked about that much, for fear of being seized on by racists.

Whether that's right or wrong is a perfectly reasonable discussion point, but it has little to do with the Catholic Church abuse cases, which were about knowing but doing nothing.

steelcityblues · 07-01-2011 5:53pm

Lumen wrote: »

"Court cases". That would be the criminal justice system in action. The police have known about this for some time, and have been dealing with it. It just doesn't get talked about that much, for fear of being seized on by racists.

Whether that's right or wrong is a perfectly reasonable discussion point, but it has little to do with the Catholic Church abuse cases, which were about knowing but doing nothing.

Disagree. In what is meant to be a truly free society, a person who is convicted of sexual abuse should warrant no more/less coverage and scrutiny than anyone else convicted of a similar offence.

Issues like this lift the lid on how influential people can keep certain uncomfortable truths away from the glare, which is why this overlaps with the failure of media/politicians/guards in our own country for dealing with epidemic clerical abuse at a fairly quick rate.

The phrase 'when good men do nothing, evil triumphs' came into my head while reading this!

Lumen · 07-01-2011 6:11pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

Disagree. In what is meant to be a truly free society, a person who is convicted of sexual abuse should warrant no more/less coverage and scrutiny than anyone else convicted of a similar offence.

Issues like this lift the lid on how influential people can keep certain uncomfortable truths away from the glare, which is why this overlaps with the failure of media/politicians/guards in our own country for dealing with epidemic clerical abuse at a fairly quick rate.

It's not a fair comparison. In the case of priest abuse (as I understand it, not having read the full reports) Gardai, politicians and Church officials knew that crimes had been committed, and conspired to cover it up in order to prevent justice from being done. This case is just about the reporting of cases that have reached court, and where justice has been done.

You say "UK elite stayed silent", but the article you linked to was about charities and agencies. Which influential people are you talking about? And what do you propose be done that hasn't been already? As I said, the police are on the case, and have been for some time.

steelcityblues · 07-01-2011 6:18pm

Lumen wrote: »

It's not a fair comparison. In the case of priest abuse (as I understand it, not having read the full reports) Gardai, politicians and Church officials knew that crimes had been committed, and conspired to cover it up in order to prevent justice from being done. This case is just about the reporting of cases that have reached court, and where justice has been done.

You say "UK elite stayed silent", but the article you linked to was about charities and agencies. Which influential people are you talking about? And what do you propose be done that hasn't been already? As I said, the police are on the case, and have been for some time.

Charities and agencies have CEO's too, so I would gather these people could be described as 'important' in society in general.

What do I propose? I propose that more politicians in Westminster, or on city councils, recognise that uncontrolled immigration (as opposed to restricted immigration) brings a lot of dangers with it.

As long as unforgivable stuff like this does not happen to their sons/daughters/nephews living in nice, mostly white, middle class areas, I doubt they will tackle it though.

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2011 6:51pm

What exactly are you expecting them to do? Should they go running to the papers to tell them some Pakistani men abused children? They don't make a fuss when white men do it.

What has been covered up here exactly? People abused children, they were charged, prosecuted and given appropriate sentences. All this is in the public domain, just because the info wasn't presented in the way it has been here, does not equal a cover up.

steelcityblues · 07-01-2011 7:52pm

While this has not been a total cover-up, it is the undereporting by the media to its readers/viewers, and the lack of any severe criticisms from mainstream politicians and agencies that hint at a problem that isn't exposed like it should be.

The elephant in the room is that the statistics seem to grossly over-represent Pakistanis in comparison to the percentage of them living in Britain, yet no further coverage on this.

Sand · 07-01-2011 8:19pm

Has there been only 17 cases in the UK since 1997 relating to prosecutions for grooming of 11-16 year olds? I think thats the most important thing when it comes to understanding the true context of the stats.

wes · 08-01-2011 12:57pm

So the men were arrested, so I fail to see the so called cover up. Also, 17 cases from one area, tells us very little about any over all trend either. So again, I fail to see the cover up, and I would expect far more comprehensive stats to back up the claims, but I doubt they will be forth coming.

steelcityblues · 08-01-2011 2:39pm

I don't have a set of comprehensive statistics in front of me, but the fact in the one above that highlighted was a disproportionate amount of offenders from the one ethnic group, is why I wonder other leading spokespeople from the world of media/politics/justice are not mentioning this.

Now today, Jack Straw is getting slammed by several of his colleagues for pretty much saying like it is all under the banner in their minds of supposedly being racially sensitive!

In other words, they are continuing to pussyfoot ariound the big problem.

Nodin · 08-01-2011 2:50pm

steelcityblues wrote:

Now today, Jack Straw is getting slammed by several of his colleagues for pretty much saying like it is
.........

You mean "pretty much saying what I want to hear"....

But Helen Brayley, from University College London's Jill Dando Institute of Security and Crime Science, said people should not draw hasty conclusions.
Ms Brayley, who wrote the first independent academic analysis of child sex trafficking, said: "When you jump in with thinking about race too quickly, you can miss a whole load of other things that are happening in other areas.
"So by racially stereotyping this early on without a national scoping project...we don't know what the situation is in other areas around the country, that you might be leading to a self-fulfilling prophecy of if people are looking for Asian offenders, they will only find Asian offenders."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12142177

JustinDee · 08-01-2011 4:02pm

I read about it on the BBC website, saw it breaking on BBC news then later on Channel 4 and ITV.
The Guardian also ran on it.

How exactly is this 'under-reported'???

steelcityblues · 08-01-2011 5:45pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I read about it on the BBC website, saw it breaking on BBC news then later on Channel 4 and ITV.
The Guardian also ran on it.

How exactly is this 'under-reported'???

Today they are picking up steam with it I admit, but still over the years there has been a lack of addressing this serious issue an the consequences for vulnerable young women.

For example, Channel 4, on complaints by the West Yorkshire police, back in 2004 decided to pull a documentary alleging that the Pakistani gangs were abusing many local girls.

As I have argued earlier, a complicity of silence helps no one bar the perpetrators in the long run, and the media, politicans and police authorities have a lot of explaining to do.

Cork boy 55 · 08-01-2011 6:43pm

This has been going on for years and is present in every city in England
It's has been covered up to a degree
I saw a newsnight show(BBC) on this and they never mentioned the race element once and that has only a few weeks ago.
Jack Straw has just commented on it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12142177
He was questions to answer for not acting when he was in power
The mans a coward.

jack straw wrote: »

But there is a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men... who target vulnerable young white girls. "We need to get the Pakistani community to think much more clearly about why this is going on and to be more open about the problems that are leading to a number of Pakistani heritage men thinking it is OK to target white girls in this way."

Here's another article which address the cover up
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1344218/Asian-sex-gangs-Culture-silence-allows-grooming-white-girls-fear-racist.html#ixzz1A9w8aCps

Police and social services have been accused of fuelling a culture of silence which has allowed hundreds of young white girls to be exploited by Asian men for sex.
Agencies have identified a long-term pattern of offending by gangs of men, predominantly from the British Pakistani community, who have befriended and abused hundreds of vulnerable girls aged 11 to 16.

Experts claim the statistics represent a mere fraction of a 'tidal wave' of offending in counties across the Midlands and the north of England which has been going on for more than a decade.

A senior officer at West Mercia police has called for an end to the 'damaging taboo' connecting on-street grooming with race.

Detective Chief Inspector Alan Edwards said: 'These girls are being passed around and used as meat.

Palmach · 08-01-2011 7:16pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

This has been going on for years and is present in every city in England
It's has been covered up to a degree
I saw a newsnight show(BBC) on this and they never mentioned the race element once and that has only a few weeks ago.
Jack Straw has just commented on it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12142177
He was questions to answer for not acting when he was in power
The mans a coward.

Here's another article which address the cover up
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1344218/Asian-sex-gangs-Culture-silence-allows-grooming-white-girls-fear-racist.html#ixzz1A9w8aCps

It is to do with Islam and those who are Muslims and those who are not. It isn't race it is culture. Most Pakistanis I know would be horrified at this but still would hate their kids marrying a white unless the white converted to Islam. This has also been a big problem in Scandinavia where Muslim men are disproportionately represented in the rape statistics.

Cork boy 55 · 08-01-2011 7:37pm

Palmach wrote: »

It is to do with Islam and those who are Muslims and those who are not. It isn't race it is culture. Most Pakistanis I know would be horrified at this but still would hate their kids marrying a white unless the white converted to Islam. This has also been a big problem in Scandinavia where Muslim men are disproportionately represented in the rape statistics.

It's true there is issues in Scandinavia as well
true stats are hard to come by as some countries do not collect
racial stats on crime like Sweden
However in Oslo Norway a police chief recently broke the silence
Hanne Kristine Rohde
"All 21 reported cases of rape with aggravated assault — the highest number since records were started — in the Norwegian capital of Oslo last year were committed by non-Western immigrants(mainly Turkish and African men) and 90 percent of all rape victims were Norwegian women, police have announced.
Oslo police spokesman Hanne Kristine Rohde defied the strictures of political correctness to release the figures in an interview on the national Norwegian broadcaster, NRK.
The number of rapes with violent assault committed in Oslo also doubled compared to 2008. According to the police statement, in each and every case, not only in 2008 and 2009 but also in 2007, the offender was a non-Western immigrant. At the same time, in 9 out of 10 cases, the victim was Norwegian, not just by nationality, but also by ethnicity.
The NRK report concluded that not a single one of the offenders had a Western background. "
heres the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN13ma9bc2k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN13ma9bc2k

Palmach · 08-01-2011 8:39pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

It's true there is issues in Scandinavia as well
the figures in an interview on the national Norwegian broadcaster, NRK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN13ma9bc2k

Well done Hanne Kristine Rohde.

Cork boy 55 · 08-01-2011 9:36pm

It was the recent case in Derby that appears to lead to all the recent media
reports on this,, the Gang was convicted yesterday.

//www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12137400

The ringleaders of a gang which groomed and abused teenage girls in Derby have been given indeterminate jail terms.
Mohammed Liaqat, 28, and Abid Saddique, 27, were found guilty at a trial in November of charges including rape.
At Nottingham Crown Court, Saddique was jailed for at least 11 years and Liaqat for a minimum of eight.
Many of the gang's victims were given alcohol or drugs before being forced to have sex in cars, rented houses or hotels across the Midlands.
Six other men have already been sentenced for their part in the abuse.

Also here's Martin Narey chief executive of the charity Barnardos

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9350000/9350382.stm

Martin Narey, chief executive of the charity Barnardos, told the programme that the problem of grooming was much more widespread than people realised.
"If there's one good thing that will come out of the Derby case it is that people, including police services around the country, will realise that this is probably happening everywhere.
"We happen to work in 21 towns and cities in the UK where we discover it but I think it's probably happening in most towns and cities. And it preys on vulnerable, isolated young girls and sometimes boys."

steelcityblues · 10-01-2011 2:46pm

Attention focused towards possible Scottish cases today:

But Shafiq, director of the Muslim youth group the Ramadhan Foundation, said he'd been alerted to a similar situation in Glasgow.
He said: "There is a Scottish connection, insofar as someone rang me and told me about it happening in Glasgow.
"That was one person who was concerned enough to ring me and alert me, but there is no evidence from the police or any other avenue that this is actually happening.
"It's based on one comment, rather than evidence."

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2011/01/10/alert-over-scottish-link-to-asian-sex-abuse-gangs-86908-22838641/

Nodin · 10-01-2011 3:02pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

Attention focused towards possible Scottish cases today:

"It's based on one comment, rather than evidence."

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2011/01/10/alert-over-scottish-link-to-asian-sex-abuse-gangs-86908-22838641/

Aha.....

RDM_83 again · 10-01-2011 3:18pm

Its a bit rich Jack Straw going on about this issue in opposition considering the controversy relating to MP Anne Cryer when labour were in power raising these issues.

And yes it would seem to have been historically under reported considering the profile these types of cases normally get

Nodin · 10-01-2011 3:27pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its a bit rich Jack Straw going on about this issue in opposition considering the controversy relating to MP Anne Cryer when labour were in power raising these issues.

His statement was not unrelated to the Oldham by-election. There's been a strong BNP turn out there on occassion.

conorhal · 10-01-2011 4:59pm

This is not a racial issue but a cultural issue, and here in lies the flaw in the multicultural agenda, that it is perhaps best not to be too culturally accommodating towards migrants who's cultural attitudes towards women in general (not just western women) are, frankly, appalling.
There is a pervasive attitude that, as long as the abuse is perpetrated within their own community then it is none of our concern.
We had, for example, a witchdoctor in Dublin that circumcised a child that subsequently bled to death. Did this butcher go to jail? Did he hell, he was given a suspended sentence by a judge that had the gall to say that we could not 'judge people by our own cultural standards'.
We don't even have to look as far afield as North African migrants. A social worker I know once told me that what goes on behind doors in many traveler encampments throughout Ireland would put the child abuse scandal in the Catholic Church in the halfpenny place, and that in 20yrs time we will be having tribunals of investigation as to how the state could have allowed a deference to cultural sensitivity stand in the way of child protection and the kinds of abuse that many children are suffering right now.
Multiculturalism to my mind implies that if you are ‘other’ you are not entitled to the same protection under the law, nor are you held to the same legal standards as the rest of society.

steelcityblues · 10-01-2011 5:46pm

Nodin wrote: »

Aha.....

It seems like you expect this problem to go away now!

Nodin · 10-01-2011 7:43pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

It seems like you expect this problem to go away now!

No, I'm pointing out

"It's based on one comment, rather than evidence."

with regards to your claim "Attention focused towards possible Scottish cases today:".

steelcityblues · 10-01-2011 8:11pm

Nodin wrote: »

No, I'm pointing out

with regards to your claim "Attention focused towards possible Scottish cases today:".

Well, I made sure to post the word 'possible' in that post.

Anyway, it is significant if a director of a Muslim youth group is concerned about what he's hearing!

Nodin · 10-01-2011 8:53pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

Well, I made sure to post the word 'possible' in that post.

Anyway, it is significant if a director of a Muslim youth group is concerned about what he's hearing!

I rather consistently tear the arse out of people for coming out with anecdotes. Directors of Muslim youth groups don't get a papal exemption.

Child sex abuse - UK elite stayed silent

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