Railfreight as Obsolete as Donkey Carts Soon.

KC61 · 05-02-2010 11:11am

paulm17781 wrote: »

This is why rail freight is dead in this country.

Plus a lack of political will or interest from the railway company!

csd · 05-02-2010 11:14am

It seems to me that while important, distance has less to do with it than the type of economy we're moving towards. Rail handled freight quite well in the past, even with the smaller distances.

What seems to be a big factor is the move away from making stuff and towards a knowledge-based economy. The remaining manufacturing is conveniently located close to ports (pharmaceuticals, alumina), or too small to sustain the bulk flows rail is suited to. The old industries that used freight (Asahi, IFI) are gone. It seems that wages in Ireland are just too uncompetitive for manufacturing these days.

/csd

corktina · 05-02-2010 11:20am

distance is one factor, lack of population density is another. Its one thing Tesco freighting stuff from the densley populated south UK to the densely populated forth/clyde valley area , quite another to freight stuff to or from a small town like (say) Sligo.

pie chart · 05-02-2010 1:00pm

corktina wrote: »

distance is one factor, lack of population density is another. Its one thing Tesco freighting stuff from the densley populated south UK to the densely populated forth/clyde valley area , quite another to freight stuff to or from a small town like (say) Sligo.

I disagree. Tara Mines - Alexander Road ore traffic is only 50 miles or so in each direction, yet it appears to be one of the (few) freight flows left on Irish Rail. Numerous flows operate throughout Europe which are "short distance" flows with great sucess.

I personally believe that freight traffic can work in Ireland even that Irish Rail have turned away many freight flows over the past few years, such as Scrap Metal, Aggriates, Bulk and Bag cement, Bulk Timber, Bituminen, numerous flows of container traffic, kegs, bulk oil, the list goes on and on and on.

There's (in my opinion) several flows which could start very shortly if the "will power" was there.
Such as Bulk cement, Limerick - Waterford or Platin - Waterford or Platin - Tullamore. "De mountable" cement tanks can be leased out for the flows and mounted on existing freight wagons.
The Shale traffic from the quarry near Nenagh - Limerick
Container Traffic from Cork - Dublin
To name but a few...

The problem is that there appears to be no direct interest from the Government - and certainly not from Irish Rail (Prove me wrong!) to run anything other than passenger trains, and even then!!

Regarding Tesco/Stobart you could indeed have them running in Ireland I believe, with "central distribution points" for trains to stop at, and then the containers roaded onto each destination from there in that area. I agree that the thought of having a train run from Dublin - Sligo for just 1 or 2 stores doesn't seem to be the way forward.

But, you could have "Distribution points" at the likes of Longford (for the Midlands) Mallow (For the south) Waterford/Wexford (for the south East) and Galway for the West for example.

corktina · 05-02-2010 1:29pm

pie in the sky if you'll excuse the rather obvious pun.

The whole point of the UK tesco operation is you have a whole train load moving to Scotland, not one container to Mallow. It would be far quicker to have a container on a lorry moving from Dublin to (lets say) Macroom than it would be to have that container loaded on to a train and then waiting whilst all the other containers are loaded and then probably having to wait again in mallow for its turn to be unloaded andf put on a truck to go to Macroom. In Tescos operation the goods go to a distribution centre where the loads are broken down and shipped off (on a truck) to all the many Tesco shops around Scotland. Ie goods in bulk...no doubt you'd have a container of (say) washing powder from Unilever...you just wouldnt have that bulk in Ireland, there arent enough shops...(low population density...)

OK, lets assume Tara Mines operation is a big sucess (although only the other day someone was talking about that traffic ceasing soon) show me another Tara mines...

The problem with all these flows you mention is that they are all short haul (because Dublin is half way up the country) and most need transshipping onto (or off) a lorry at one or both ends of the trip.

pie chart · 05-02-2010 1:38pm

Ok, what about the following that were working before Irish Rail ceased the traffic:

Kilmastulla Quarry - Mungret Factory Shale
Waterford - Limerick Bulk Cement
Platin - Tullamore Bulk Cement
Dublin Port - Sligo Port Oil
Galway Port - Claremorris Oil
Sligo Port - Waterford Bulk Logs
Millstreet/Ennis/Galway - Clonmel/Waterford Bulk Logs

An argument could be used that theres no demand for building supplies, however the worst of the recession appears to be over, and there has been a considerable rise in the demand for bulk timber of late, and not just by rail either....

Also the demand for bulk cement is slowly rising too from what I've seen.

pie chart · 05-02-2010 1:47pm

If it were all pie in the sky then why have there been numerous campaigns from TRANSPORT companies to get Irish Rail to transport their goods.

I agree that there is no need for a railfreight service for 1 container to be dropped off down the back of beyond for 1 customer.

But, if that railfreight service was restructered for a demand for "point - point" bulk flows (as I've listed above) then I believe there is a scope for demand, and more to the point more efficent & better for the enviroment than road transport...........

The likes of Waterford - Ballina and Ballina - Dublin freight flows are a good example of how this can work, and to a sucess too.

Some could say "there's no demand for a container service from a village in the west to Dublin/Waterford" and look at whats happened. Yes, there are 2x major indrustires which use the service, but I'm pretty sure if more of these flows were introduced to other "villages" then the demand could surely be there!!

Longford, Portlaoise, Cork, Dublin, Dundalk for example!!

Ham'nd'egger · 05-02-2010 1:54pm

pie chart wrote: »

Ok, what about the following that were working before Irish Rail ceased the traffic:

Kilmastulla Quarry - Mungret Factory Shale
Waterford - Limerick Bulk Cement
Platin - Tullamore Bulk Cement
Dublin Port - Sligo Port Oil
Galway Port - Claremorris Oil
Sligo Port - Waterford Bulk Logs
Millstreet/Ennis/Galway - Clonmel/Waterford Bulk Logs

An argument could be used that theres no demand for building supplies, however the worst of the recession appears to be over, and there has been a considerable rise in the demand for bulk timber of late, and not just by rail either....

Also the demand for bulk cement is slowly rising too from what I've seen.

Many of these ceased when the carried company breaks production, ceases with a market line or can't justify the cost or can do it cheaper another way. The timber trains have slowed up from 7-8 a week to just 2-3 a week now, cement productions has almost dried up while the shale traffic is ceased at the minute. Oil is the only traffic that Irish Rail could reintroduce but it's cheaper to bring it on road which should tell us something about the economics at play here.

corktina · 05-02-2010 2:03pm

exactly. Why would you want to transship the oil into a rail wagon only to have to transship it again to deliver it? The only flows that would work would be from port to end user direct or from producer to port direct. So you are limited to places with a rail connection whereas raod transport cqan not only deliver to pretty well anywhere but can also switch routes at the drop of a hat in case of problems like accidents or floods for example.

pie chart · 05-02-2010 2:06pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

Many of these ceased when the carried company breaks production, ceases with a market line or can't justify the cost or can do it cheaper another way. The timber trains have slowed up from 7-8 a week to just 2-3 a week now, cement productions has almost dried up while the shale traffic is ceased at the minute. Oil is the only traffic that Irish Rail could reintroduce but it's cheaper to bring it on road which should tell us something about the economics at play here.

The bulk timber trains (as I understand it) have been running 2-3 a week last year due to lack of demand, with some weeks with nothing running at all.

However, as I understand it there has been a significent rise in demand for bulk timber. Westport - Waterford has been re-introduced as a result, and Ballina - Waterford continues to run, with trains now running 4-5 times weekly. At the peak of the boom bulk timber trains were running 5-6 times weekly.

Bulk cement traffic is still viable in my opinion, there has been a slow (but a rise all the same) for bulk cement since December, yet Irish rail descided to cease the Limerick - Waterford cement flow.
Regarding shale, I gather this made in the region of €1.3 million profit, yet Irish Rail descided to axe it along with the bulk cement it seems.

Yes, I agree that Bulk Oil would most certainly be suited to rail. Running from Terminal - Reception terminal all by rail seems to be far more economic paying for 1/2 drivers and wagon maintence, rather than paying for 10-15 lorry driver's and their fuel on top of that.

pie chart · 05-02-2010 2:13pm

corktina wrote: »

exactly. Why would you want to transship the oil into a rail wagon only to have to transship it again to deliver it? The only flows that would work would be from port to end user direct or from producer to port direct. So you are limited to places with a rail connection whereas raod transport cqan not only deliver to pretty well anywhere but can also switch routes at the drop of a hat in case of problems like accidents or floods for example.

Yes I agree about that if it were 1x wagon load and wanting to be shipped to a destination only to be off-loaded onto a lorry, but the fact is that Sligo Port has a significent oil terminal which gets served by lorry after lorry from Dublin's Oil terminal at the port.

Likewise Claremorris has a sizeable oil terminal which gets served by lorry after lorry from Galway/Dublin.

Both Sligo & Claremorris got sigificent loads of oil by rail a week, now all by road.

I do agree that bring a single tank of oil by rail is madness however, but I'm talking about block loads from Terminal - Reception Terminal.

corktina · 05-02-2010 4:16pm

but as was said, if it is cheaper to bring it by road, whats the point of bringing it by rail? Its cheaper because the costs of the road network are shared across many different usages whereas rail has to pay all its own costs. Im afraid it would need a very large number of oil trains per week to make it viable and there just isnt sufficent demand

FlameoftheWest · 05-02-2010 7:49pm

pie chart wrote: »

Numerous flows operate throughout Europe which are "short distance" flows with great sucess.

I am sorry but this statement is very, very, very misleading. The short railfreight flows in Europe are part of the wider European rail network - think of them as the sweets sold in Eason when you go to pay for your books, DVDs and magazines. This is why they "work". The big contracts allow the small ones to be a "great success". Most of these short distances are coal mines delivering coal to power stations. We have no coal mines in Ireland. The reason why funiture made in a factory in Koln is shipped 6km to a distrubution centre by rail is due to the fact the same rail operator is running long contrainer trains between Koln and Milan.

Same reason for the "mom and pop" shortlines in the USA. These railways move a boxcar from a junction to a factory 3 miles from were Conrail delivered it 1,000 miles from Chicago to that point. Conrail gave away hundreds of these small branches in the 1970's and 80's to anyone who wanted to take over the final transshipment to a customer on the end of a spur. All you needed was a small cheap loco (BIG FAT 0 of these in Ireland) and you had your own shortline freight railroad.

Railfreight except in the case of specific end to end traffic is not viable in Ireland. 90% of all possible railfreight flows in Ireland are currently in operation. Would love for it to be different but the motorways, HGVs and business park off the motorway is here to stay.

monument · 05-02-2010 7:54pm

The current runnings seem to make the first line in your last par untrue.

csd · 05-02-2010 8:29pm

Part of the issue is that the government just doesn't seem to care. More votes in supporting jobs in the haulage industry than on railfreight. CIE workers, as civil servants, can't be let go anyway, so there's no downside to the politcian.

A case in point is Lisheen mine. Ideally suited to railfreight, but needed a (fairly) short spur constructed off the mainline. However, IE's sole shareholder, the government, refused IE funds to construct this so the ore goes by lorry to Cork harbour.

Forget about the nostalgia/trainspotter angle to this. I think bulk loads like ore should be moved by rail. There's no sense having dozens of lorry movements hammering at local roads when a train load or two a day (like Tara) can do the job.

/csd

corktina · 05-02-2010 8:59pm

csd wrote: »

Part of the issue is that the government just doesn't seem to care. More votes in supporting jobs in the haulage industry than on railfreight. CIE workers, as civil servants, can't be let go anyway, so there's no downside to the politcian.

A case in point is Lisheen mine. Ideally suited to railfreight, but needed a (fairly) short spur constructed off the mainline. However, IE's sole shareholder, the government, refused IE funds to construct this so the ore goes by lorry to Cork harbour.

Forget about the nostalgia/trainspotter angle to this. I think bulk loads like ore should be moved by rail. There's no sense having dozens of lorry movements hammering at local roads when a train load or two a day (like Tara) can do the job.

/csd

i think you need to back that up with figures....a train load or two a day is around 2000 tonnes or 60 truckloads....does Lisheen produce that amount?

You have to bear in mind that rail infrastructure costs a lot...trackwork and signalling is very expensive not to mention groundworks and in most cases would tip the balabce in favour of road haulage. Also, road haulage is more flexible. Instaed of hiring two trains a day and the associated staff, you just hire how many privately owned trucks you need on a daily basis.Thus your costs in this respect stop if theres a production problem, whilst with rail you still have an engine driver and a signalman etc sitting idle

monument · 05-02-2010 9:30pm

corktina wrote: »

You have to bear in mind that rail infrastructure costs a lot...trackwork and signalling is very expensive not to mention groundworks and in most cases would tip the balabce in favour of road haulage.

And road infrastructure is cheep?

corktina · 05-02-2010 9:41pm

its already there in most cases and costs are spread over many different users..i think i already said that.

csd · 06-02-2010 12:52pm

corktina wrote: »

i think you need to back that up with figures....a train load or two a day is around 2000 tonnes or 60 truckloads....does Lisheen produce that amount?

Ok. According to http://www.infomine.com/minesite/minesite.asp?site=lisheen Lisheen mine sends 300,000 tonnes a year to Cork port. If you assume M-F working (for the transport side of it anyway), that's 300,000/261 = 1150t/day. Assuming a truck can take 30t, that's 38 - 39 truck movements a day. The ore is extracted at a rate of 1.5 mt a year, from a body of 22.5 mt, which gives a life of approx 15 years.

You could replace all of that with one or two trains a day.

You have to bear in mind that rail infrastructure costs a lot...trackwork and signalling is very expensive not to mention groundworks and in most cases would tip the balabce in favour of road haulage. Also, road haulage is more flexible. Instaed of hiring two trains a day and the associated staff, you just hire how many privately owned trucks you need on a daily basis.Thus your costs in this respect stop if theres a production problem, whilst with rail you still have an engine driver and a signalman etc sitting idle

Track and signalling isn't that expensive when amortised over a long enough working life. And remember, you only need two drivers and a shunter at each end vs at least 10 drivers for the lorries.

The mine is about 9 km from the Dublin - Cork line. I can't imagine the cost of constructing a siding, when spread over 15 years, would have made it uneconomic.

/csd

corktina · 06-02-2010 1:21pm

38 to 39 truckloads a day raises another problem for rail...too much for one train and not enough for two.

To install a new junction with the necessary signalling would be extremely expensive plus 9km of track and trackbed and the loading facilites at the mine and at the dock.
Add to that traincrew costs...could you do a round trip in a day? Doubtful without MGR technology at both ends.So, two trainsets required in that case.the costs really would be vast and road would be far more flexible.

Add in the pathing issues of integrating relatively slow and heavy frieght trains with a relatively high speed hourly passenger service..IE ìf a train left "Lisheen junction" after a down passenger it would need to be recessed before the next ,is there a down loop in a suitable position? Provision of new loops and signalling would be very expensive.

Much as Id like to see it happen, I dont think there would be enough traffic to justify it.

Judgement Day · 06-02-2010 1:49pm

corktina if you're not already employed by CIE/IE you should be. Maybe when Barry Kenny retires?

csd · 06-02-2010 1:55pm

corktina wrote: »

38 to 39 truckloads a day raises another problem for rail...too much for one train and not enough for two.

To install a new junction with the necessary signalling would be extremely expensive plus 9km of track and trackbed and the loading facilites at the mine and at the dock.
Add to that traincrew costs...could you do a round trip in a day? Doubtful without MGR technology at both ends.So, two trainsets required in that case.the costs really would be vast and road would be far more flexible.

Add in the pathing issues of integrating relatively slow and heavy frieght trains with a relatively high speed hourly passenger service..IE ìf a train left "Lisheen junction" after a down passenger it would need to be recessed before the next ,is there a down loop in a suitable position? Provision of new loops and signalling would be very expensive.

Much as Id like to see it happen, I dont think there would be enough traffic to justify it.

I still think it's possible.

Tara mines manages three trains a day without Merry Go Round, so I don't see why Lisheen couldn't.
201 class locos can pull trains up to 2,000t without a problem. So one train is all you'd need. When the 201s arrived first, IE did a test through Cork tunnel up the hill towards Rathpeacon with a 2,000t load. Speed wouldn't be an issue either, they'd easily manage 60 mph.
Assuming 'Lisheen Junction' somewhere around MP 83 between Templemore and Thurles, you have existing loops/stabling at MP87 (Thurles), MP107 (Limerick Junction), MP129 (Charleville), MP144 (Mallow) before you get to Cork (MP165).
On the Cork Main line you'd need a facing crossover on the Up line, a turnout on the down line, a headshunt long enough to hold a train, and a siding 9 km to Lisheen. You wouldn't even need a runaround if the train was allowed to propel back to Lisheen from the junction. You really have to define 'vast'!
Plenty of IE-owned land around Horgan's Quay to construct offloading facilities, which could be conveyored across the road to a waiting ship.
Traincrew costs would be lower than road, as there would be one train vs a dozen or so lorries.
No-one is denying the flexibility of lorries, but why do you need such flexibility for a fixed flow like this? It'd be safer and less polluting to use rail.

/csd

corktina · 06-02-2010 2:07pm

i think we'll have to agree to disagree....i hope you are right and it happens one day, but as i say, I cant see it. (would make better use of class 201s tbh!

corktina · 06-02-2010 2:08pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

corktina if you're not already employed by CIE/IE you should be. Maybe when Barry Kenny retires?

i'll add you as a referee on my CV JD..thanks for the career advice...:D

Railfreight as Obsolete as Donkey Carts Soon.

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