French spoken in Ireland??

pigwiggum · 25-01-2012 10:04pm #1

I can't find any information on this, during the period that French was spoken in Britain was it also spoken here?

Thanks

Enkidu · 25-01-2012 10:37pm

pigwiggum wrote: »

I can't find any information on this, during the period that French was spoken in Britain was it also spoken here?

Thanks

French was never really spoken in Britain or Ireland rather another language closely related to it called Nouormand or Norman in English. Although grammatically similar to French it has a lot of words of Norse origin and it would have been quite different in terms of pronunciation.

It basically lasted in Ireland from the arrival of the Normans in the 12th century until around the 16th century. Although by the 14th century it was quite rare for it to be still spoken among Norman families.

pigwiggum · 25-01-2012 10:47pm

Thanks for the reply, I remember learning that for a period after the Normans or so speaking in French was very widespread in the courts and by the upperclasses in Britain while the populace spoke whatever form of English, my question is really, if the upper class and the law were using French would it have transferred over here under their rule?

dubhthach · 25-01-2012 11:05pm

I know I shouldn't but there is an article specifically on "Anglo-Norman" (Language) on wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language

Obviously it was closely related to medieval French but there were obvious dialectial differences between them. The Norman language still exists to this day in France.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_language

tac foley · 26-01-2012 12:51am

dubhthach wrote: »

The Norman language still exists to this day in France. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_language[/QUOTE]

...and on the Channel Islands, too.

tac

tac foley · 26-01-2012 1:01am

pigwiggum wrote: »

I can't find any information on this, during the period that French was spoken in Britain was it also spoken here?

Thanks

Sir - you have to be more careful about what you call Britain. At the time of the Norman invasion, only the English spoke more or less Anglo-Saxon. To the far west, the Cornish still spoke their Brythonic language closely akin to Welsh, the Welsh in Wales were still independent and spoke Welsh, and the people north of the border [there was actually no agreed border, BTW] spoke a form of Gaelic.

Britain, as a conceptual nation, did not exist.

However - THIS little love poem will give you some idea of what 13th Century English looked like - much influenced by the Royal Court and their Norman-French intermingled with some left-over survivors from the pre-conquest years....

Heo is lilie of largesse,
Heo is parvenke of Prouesse.
Heo is solsecle of suetnesse
Ant ledy of lealte.
For hir love y carke and care,
For hir love y droup and dare,
For hir love my blisse is bare,
Ant al ich waxe won.
For hir love in slepe y slake,
For hir love al nyht y wake,
For hir love Mournynge y make,
More than any mon.

Anon

'Heo' is 'she' BTW, and 'y' is 'I'.

tac

pigwiggum · 26-01-2012 1:07am

Thanks for the information. I'm not bothered though if it was technically Britain or not or which variation of the French language they were speaking!

I'm just very curious that since the legal profession and the rich used whatever version of French it was in the location that is now Britain did it move over here??!

Thanks

Enkidu · 26-01-2012 10:44am

pigwiggum wrote: »

Thanks for the information. I'm not bothered though if it was technically Britain or not or which variation of the French language they were speaking!

I'm just very curious that since the legal profession and the rich used whatever version of French it was in the location that is now Britain did it move over here??!

Thanks

It's not a version of French, reports from the time show that a Old French speaker would have had some difficulty understanding it. It was another langue d'oil which itself had dialects. A Sicilian dialect and the almost identical Irish and British dialects. The British dialect being now known as Anglo-Norman, which dubhthach links to above.

Fuinseog · 26-01-2012 12:40pm

pigwiggum wrote: »

I can't find any information on this, during the period that French was spoken in Britain was it also spoken here?

Thanks

Norman french was spoken in medieval Galway. There is a gravestone in St. Nicks with an inscription in this language.

there are traces of French in Irish with words such as garsun, gairdin, and eaglais.

CDfm · 26-01-2012 9:32pm

My ancestors from Wexford spoke a dialect of Middle English called Yola -a post Norman invasion of England dialect of Middle English/Germanic and with a bit of Irish thrown in over time.

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Yola_language

Women were called Moans :eek:

http://knowthyplace.wordpress.com/2011/11/18/yola-irelands-forgotten-language/

It survived into the 19th Century .

There was a Fingalian language too.

So was this what the normans spoke originally and was french the official language as latin was to the church ?

guinnessdrinker · 26-01-2012 10:06pm

Some words that found their way into the English language from the Norman language include some very commonly used words these days such as sovereign, exchequer and tax!!!

slowburner · 27-01-2012 10:55am

I heard sweets, referred to as 'swine' in Kilkenny, years ago.
Yola maybe? Was it exclusively confined to Wexford?
In 1801 Robert Fraser (General View.....of the County Wicklow) remarked on the absence of spoken Irish in Wicklow.

It is very remarkable, that although the Irish language is common in all the counties around, in the county of Wicklow the Irish language is unknown.
Nor did I find any of the natives of this county, even in the most remote vales in the midst of the mountains, accustomed to speak the Irish language.

Enkidu · 27-01-2012 10:59am

CDfm wrote: »

So was this what the normans spoke originally and was french the official language as latin was to the church ?

Yola evolved from the language of the Anglo-Saxons who came over with the Normans during the invasion, but was not the language of the Normans themselves. The Normans wouldn't be Anglisicised for another few hundred years, even in Britain they kept the court language as Norman even though most of their non-Norman subjects couldn't speak it.

dubhthach · 27-01-2012 11:17am

One way to think of Yola is to look at Scots in Scotland. Basically for couple hundred years it developed in isolation from English. Obviously what we call English now is a heavily modified language due to massive influence of French (and other Latin languages) which make up about 50% of the vocabulary.

Interesting enough dialects of "North of England" are probably "purer english" in sense that they contain more in way of original Germanic words and lot less in way of loan-words from French.

CDfm · 27-01-2012 12:22pm

Enkidu wrote: »

Yola evolved from the language of the Anglo-Saxons who came over with the Normans during the invasion, but was not the language of the Normans themselves. The Normans wouldn't be Anglisicised for another few hundred years, even in Britain they kept the court language as Norman even though most of their non-Norman subjects couldn't speak it.

This is very interesting as Yola was spoken in Forth & Bargy in Wexford and there were at least 2 pockets of this in Ireland.

Sort of equivalent to the tuath that Bannasidhe talks about dont you think ?

dubhthach · 27-01-2012 12:37pm

CDfm wrote: »

This is very interesting as Yola was spoken in Forth & Bargy in Wexford and there were at least 2 pockets of this in Ireland.

Sort of equivalent to the tuath that Bannasidhe talks about dont you think ?

Well just as you mention Tuatha, many regard the Baronies of Ireland to be a close enough mapping to the Tuatha that existed.

Here is the Barony map for Wexford:

The thing that strikes me is both baronies are somewhat isolated. Generally older linguistic features will survive in "remote areas" -- thus survival of Irish language in the Gaeltachtaí

North-Wexford remained in "Gaelic Irish" controll under the Mac Murchadha Caomhánach (McMurrogh Kavanagh) until plantation in 17th century. This dichomoty can be seen if you look at the map of distrubition of surname Walsh/Welsh (Petty 1659).

Walsh is the third most common surname in Ireland and implies basically "Welsh origin" eg. the Welsh longbowmen who arrived with the Cambro-Normans

In case of Wexford it would seem that Baronies of Shelburne and Bantry to west/north-west of the "Yola Baronies" were predomintely Irish speaking in the 18th century. This would have no doubt acted as a buffer allowing for surival of Yola and it's more archaic features (from Middle-English).

Here's an article about Wexford and languages:
A Brief History of Languages in County Wexford
As we used to say
Michael Mernagh
http://www.balleawriters.com/ballea/publications/michael_mernagh/History%20of%20Languages.pdf

Bannasidhe · 27-01-2012 12:56pm

pigwiggum wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I remember learning that for a period after the Normans or so speaking in French was very widespread in the courts and by the upperclasses in Britain while the populace spoke whatever form of English, my question is really, if the upper class and the law were using French would it have transferred over here under their rule?

Well the Statutes of Kilkenny (1366) which complained that those of 'English' Norman descent were/had becoming Gaelic

now many English of the said land, forsaking the English language, manners, mode of riding, laws and usages, live and govern themselves according to the manners, fashion, and language of the Irish enemies; and also have made divers marriages and alliances between themselves and the Irish enemies aforesaid; whereby the said land, and the liege people thereof, the English language, the allagiance due to our lord the king, and the English laws there, are put in subjection and decayed...'

were actually written in Norman French not in the English they were complaining had been abandoned so the short answer is yes, they did bring their language with them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Kilkenny

Bannasidhe · 27-01-2012 1:26pm

CDfm wrote: »

This is very interesting as Yola was spoken in Forth & Bargy in Wexford and there were at least 2 pockets of this in Ireland.

Sort of equivalent to the tuath that Bannasidhe talks about dont you think ?

Pretty much - though there were variations and the existence of earldoms kinda messed with the Tuath boundaries...

So in Mayo the baronies followed what were essentially the land held by the various Sliocht, while the county was more or less the Greater MacUilliam territory - including their 5 main non-Bourke client Clans. Some boundary changes did naturally occur over time - for example we know that Inishbofin was part of Umhall Uí Máille so technically, if the boundaries adhered to what was in the Tuath of Uí Máille, it should be in Mayo rather then Galway as the Uí Máille were one of the five client clans of the Mayo Bourkes.

Galway, on the other hand is an amalgamation of Uí Flaithbhertaigh's Iar Chonnacht in the west, Joyce to the north and Clanricard in the east.

In Cork/Kerry the McCarthy lands are in both counties while the O'Sullivans/O Driscolls/O Riordans etc got no county at all and Desmond lands are spread out over about 3 (maybe more - it had a few tendril outshoots).

I do find it interesting that we still find concentrated pockets of the 'original' clan name in what were their ancestral lands- so we have loads of O'Driscolls around Skibbereen, O'Sullivans on the Beara, O Malleys in western Mayo etc.

dubhthach · 27-01-2012 2:00pm

Boundaries of Mayo and Galway were changed in the 19th century (1898 act for example) to reflect the boundaries of the Poor Law Unions. Inishbofin was transferred to Galway, likewise part of barony of Ross (Joyce Country) was transffered to Mayo (area west of Lough Mask). Galway also lost part of Barony of Leitrim to Clare (down near Scariff).

I should add that part of Kilkenny that is across from Waterford city that there are arguments over was actually part of waterford until the 19th century. However it's transfer to Kilkenny was prior to the rise of the GAA

CDfm · 27-01-2012 8:00pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Well just as you mention Tuatha, many regard the Baronies of Ireland to be a close enough mapping to the Tuatha that existed.

Here is the Barony map for Wexford:
The thing that strikes me is both baronies are somewhat isolated. Generally older linguistic features will survive in "remote areas" -- thus survival of Irish language in the Gaeltachtaí

Just a few brief comments here.

Strongbow didn't think it was remote

And you had the ancient town of Bannow which disappeared.

I have Wexford family connections. I am trying to pick my way thru the anomalies as the local history does not seem to reflect the traditional generic Irish history.

I just wonder if you had Vikings hanging around there at the time of the norman invasion that made such a settlement possible.

Remote is relative as people did not need to move. Everything was "local".

North-Wexford remained in "Gaelic Irish" controll under the Mac Murchadha Caomhánach (McMurrogh Kavanagh) until plantation in 17th century. This dichomoty can be seen if you look at the map of distrubition of surname Walsh/Welsh (Petty 1659).

Walsh is the third most common surname in Ireland and implies basically "Welsh origin" eg. the Welsh longbowmen who arrived with the Cambro-Normans

The area was linked Northwards to Kildare and Silken Thomas features in the History and it was seen as a counterbalance to the power of the McMurroughs who really were Norman and allied to the Butlers of Ormonde.

In fact, Wexford was one of the more stable locations in Ireland and when 1798 and Vinegar Hill happened it was a bit of a shock.

In case of Wexford it would seem that Baronies of Shelburne and Bantry to west/north-west of the "Yola Baronies" were predomintely Irish speaking in the 18th century. This would have no doubt acted as a buffer allowing for surival of Yola and it's more archaic features (from Middle-English).

My comments are above.

Was there something about the survival of the language and the penal laws ?

Did it crop up elsewhere ? You had the Fingallian language and privateers in North Dublin.

You also had migrations to Newfoundland.Those who migrated were not necessarily farmers either and the migration's began pre-famine too.

http://www.inp.ie/?q=node/40

http://ics.leeds.ac.uk/papers/vp01.cfm?outfit=ids&folder=158&paper=159

dubhthach · 27-01-2012 8:43pm

The MacMurroughs were certainty not Norman. (leading aside alliances they may have had) Areas such as Kilkenny etc were and remained majority Irish speaking up until the 18th century. The last native speakers in Kilkenny only died in the middle of the 20th century. You have to consider what the position was like in the 15th century. These two Baronies along with say the area within the Pale would have been islands in a sea of Irish speakers.

Middle English Period is from 11th-15th century. My point about "remoteness" is to do how language changes propagate. In example of English the "Great Vowel Shift" appears to have propagated via major trading centers. Areas that were not "cosmopolitian" (eg. plenty of movememt of traders etc.) wouldn't necessary pick up the latest "fashion" of speaking.

The Great Vowel Shift is why English ee is pronunced like í (long i), whereas in Dutch it's prononunced like é (long e) in Irish.

Given that it's part of the wider hinterland of Wexford and the issues this port had due to silting etc I wouldn't be surprised if there was a general decline in the area. Especially as Waterford was the dominant trading port in the vicinity.

CDfm · 27-01-2012 8:58pm

dubhthach wrote: »

The MacMurroughs were certainty not Norman. (leading aside alliances they may have had)

Strongbow marrying Aoife daughter of Diurmuid McM kind of puts some doubt on that .

slowburner · 27-01-2012 9:34pm

CDfm wrote: »

North-Wexford remained in "Gaelic Irish" controll under the Mac Murchadha Caomhánach (McMurrogh Kavanagh) until plantation in 17th century. This dichomoty can be seen if you look at the map of distrubition of surname Walsh/Welsh (Petty 1659).

Walsh is the third most common surname in Ireland and implies basically "Welsh origin" eg. the Welsh longbowmen who arrived with the Cambro-Normans

I am a little confused as to what the quote about Walshes is saying - is it saying that Walsh numbers were strong before or after the 17thC plantations?

The townland of Bannow shows a paucity of Walshes here
http://www.cmcrp.net/Wexford/WexGrif7.htm

CDfm · 27-01-2012 9:49pm

slowburner wrote: »

I am a little confused as to what the quote about Walshes is saying - is it saying that Walsh numbers were strong before or after the 17thC plantations?

The townland of Bannow shows a paucity of Walshes here
http://www.cmcrp.net/Wexford/WexGrif7.htm

I will leave Bannasidhe to deal with the McMurrough Kavanagh question

http://www.kavanaghfamily.com/articles/2002/20021101jfc.htm

What I was wondering was what type of pockets did you have around the country and how it matches the history.

dubhthach · 27-01-2012 10:07pm

CDfm wrote: »

Strongbow marrying Aoife daughter of Diurmuid McM kind of puts some doubt on that .

Yes but the division gave north Wexford to Dermot son, Domhnall Caomhánach, thence the main line of the family is now known as Kavanagh (Caomhánach). Strongbow didn't have a surviving son. His daughter by Aoife though was a major heiress as you'd imagine.

dubhthach · 27-01-2012 10:10pm

slowburner wrote: »

I am a little confused as to what the quote about Walshes is saying - is it saying that Walsh numbers were strong before or after the 17thC plantations?

The townland of Bannow shows a paucity of Walshes here
http://www.cmcrp.net/Wexford/WexGrif7.htm

The map which comes from Downs survey shows landownership by Barony (not parish). Why I posted it was to use it as a proxy to show areas with heaviest settlement from Cambro-Norman period in the South East. Names like Walsh are associated with the earliest "wave" into Ireland post 1170. The fact that it's completely absent from North Wexford shows the fact that South Wexford was sort of hemmed in, between the sea on East/South and "Gaelic North Wexford".

For survival of "archaic" features of a language in this case "Middle English" you tend to need a certain amount of "remoteness" from more "cosmopolitian" areas where there are higher levels of movement due to trade etc.

CDfm · 27-01-2012 10:11pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Yes but the division gave north Wexford to Dermot son, Domhnall Caomhánach, thence the main line of the family is now known as Kavanagh (Caomhánach). Strongbow didn't have a surviving son. His daughter by Aoife though was a major heiress as you'd imagine.

Don't blame me.

If Bannasidhe said it , it must be right.

CDfm · 27-01-2012 10:42pm

dubhthach wrote: »

For survival of "archaic" features of a language in this case "Middle English" you tend to need a certain amount of "remoteness" from more "cosmopolitian" areas where there are higher levels of movement due to trade etc.

Did you have dialects in england and wales too ?

Were there not laws against the speaking and writing of Irish too so that might have influenced its survival and created a greater sense of identity.

dubhthach · 27-01-2012 11:22pm

CDfm wrote: »

Did you have dialects in england and wales too ?

Were there not laws against the speaking and writing of Irish too so that might have influenced its survival and created a greater sense of identity.

England unsurprising has the highest number of dialects of the English language. One only has to look at difference between "Northern English" and "Southern English". One of prime dialects in England with remains from "Middle English" period is the "Black country" dialect in the Midlands:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Country#Black_Country_dialect_and_accent

Northern-English (for example Tyneside) maintains higher level of Germanic root words and less in way of latinate borrowings (French, other latin languages).

Scots is a prime example of a middle English variant becoming basically a seperate language (ala Yola/Fingalian).

Wales was majority Welsh speaking until about 1901 (50%). Cardif for example had over 27.9% Welsh speakers in 1891. In 1801 about 80% of population were Welsh speaking.

MarchDub · 28-01-2012 12:40pm

CDfm wrote: »

Were there not laws against the speaking and writing of Irish too so that might have influenced its survival and created a greater sense of identity.

The Statutes of Kilkenny [1366] were very explicit in trying to obliterate the Irish language in favour of English. Just typed this directly from my own copy of the Statutes:

And it is ordained and established that every Englishman shall use the English language and be named by an English name leaving off entirely the manner of naming used by the Irish; and that every Englishman use the English custom, fashion, mode of riding, and apparel according to this estate; and if any English or Irish living amongst the English use the Irish language amongst themselves contrary to this ordnance and thereof be attaint , that his lands and tenements, if he have any, be seized into the hands of his immediate lord until he come to one of the places of our lord the King and find sufficient surety to adopt and use the English language and then that he have restitution of his said lands by writ to issue out of the same place.

And in the case of those not owning lands that could be forfeited:

In the case where the person not have lands then his body be taken by some of the officers of our lord the King and be committed to the next gaol there to remain until he or another in his name find sufficient surety to the manner aforesaid.

The issue of the English settlers in Ireland becoming - the word used is 'degenerate' i.e. Gaelicised, was addressed even before the Statutes of Kilkenny most noticeably in the Irish Parliament convened in 1297 under the King's Justiciar.

dubhthach · 28-01-2012 1:16pm

One has to realise though that in 1366 you were seeing a "Gaelic resurgence" the area of land covered by such laws gradually shrunk until by the 15th century you basically had just the Pale. Most of the great Lordships (Desmond for example) were heavily Gaelicised. One of most important poets of 14th century in Irish is:
Gerald FitzGerald, 3rd Earl of Desmond (1335-1398) or as he's known in Irish: Gearóid Iarla (Earl Gearld)

If anything "Earl Gearld" was then linked to been a lover of the Goddess Áine in folklore which is a continuation of traditional Munster lore regarding the kingship of Munster.

Even better though is that like Frederick Barbarossa in Germany he has a position of "King in the Mountain" (though in this case "King of the Lough") in folklore. Eg. He is "asleep" in a cave under Lough Gur and will rise one day to rule again/save Ireland.

Interesting enough there is similiar story about Fionn and the Fianna.

French spoken in Ireland??

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