Is it time to go back to Fianna Fáil?

Sunnyisland · 15-07-2012 11:09pm

COYW wrote: »

I have never voted for a FF candidate to date, as I have never agreed with their policies but if they altered their thinking, in line with mine, I would do so without doubt. The old school were bad but I am not silly enough to believe that FG, Labour etc would not have been as reckless in power. Their manifestos declared a desire to spend more than FF did.

I think FG will get back in next time, just but I expect to see a rise in votes/seats for FF. Labour will get a pounding and people will resort back to FF. In all honesty, there is no serious alternatively to FF/FG or Labour. The hard left (incl. SF) cannot come up with a realistic alternatively. They will gain some protest votes from the Labour cache but FG would never go into government with the likes of SF and Joe Higgins & Co. wouldn't enter into such a coalition on principal.

If as in 1994 Fine gael was able to form a government with the Labour Party and democratic left,and then the PD,s & greens going into coalition with FF.I wouldn't put anything past any of them

Agent J · 15-07-2012 11:45pm

Canvasser wrote: »

After the collapse of Lehman Brothers and the global downturn it was inevitable there would be a recession in Ireland.

Lets just stop right there...

Lehman Collapsed in September 2008.

When exactly did the Irish economy start to contract?

This CSO release particular might be helpful

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2008/qna_q42008.pdf

*hint* It wasn't after September '08

Must try harder OP.

Sierra Oscar · 16-07-2012 12:21am

raymon wrote: »

Ok , apart from gaining power , what do FF stand for ???.( please don't refer me to a list on the website)

Renewal , new faces, significant changes, reform , random other cliches and buzzwords etc etc is really meaningless.

Yawn, you table this question more often than not when I post in a thread - and even when I give a detailed account of what I (and others) think FF stand for you still are not happy. Eitherway you can refer to one of my previous posts on the matter if you are still looking for an answer.

Although you must be disappointed that your own predictions in regards the demise of FF have not come to fruitition. Wasn't the party meant to be on <10% in the opinion polls by now? :pac:

Agent J wrote: »

Lets just stop right there...

Lehman Collapsed in September 2008.

When exactly did the Irish economy start to contract?

This CSO release particular might be helpful

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2008/qna_q42008.pdf

*hint* It wasn't after September '08

Must try harder OP.

Realistically, I don't think there are many who think that our current difficulties are entirely down to Lehman Brothers. Domestic economic planning was unsustainable and flawed - it was a recepie for disaster when mixed with the unprecedented global financial crisis.

Agent J · 16-07-2012 12:54am

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Realistically, I don't think there are many who think that our current difficulties are entirely down to Lehman Brothers. Domestic economic planning was unsustainable and flawed - it was a recepie for disaster when mixed with the unprecedented global financial crisis.

Oh agreed. I just can't take anyone seriously who uses the "It was Lehmans Brothers" line.

The numbers were showing Ireland was already in a Crisis by Sept '08. The world made the local situation go from worse to disaster...

Sponge Bob · 16-07-2012 1:44am

Anybody making an economic case and who starts or ends or plateaus midpoint on that tired and hackneyed Lehmans BS is invariably making an excuse for FF and to a lesser extent the Greens.

In fact I never heard anyone mention Lehmans who was not an FFer...apart from a few greens.

raymon · 16-07-2012 6:25am

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Yawn, you table this question more often than not when I post in a thread - and even when I give a detailed account of what I (and others) think FF stand for you still are not happy. Eitherway you can refer to one of my previous posts on the matter if you are still looking for an answer.

Although you must be disappointed that your own predictions in regards the demise of FF have not come to fruitition. Wasn't the party meant to be on <10% in the opinion polls by now? :pac:

Realistically, I don't think there are many who think that our current difficulties are entirely down to Lehman Brothers. Domestic economic planning was unsustainable and flawed - it was a recepie for disaster when mixed with the unprecedented global financial crisis.

The reason I ask what Fianna Fail stand for is simple. Let's take the example of your FF buddy Canvasser. The OP.

He mentions Lehmans as the root of the bankrupting of Ireland. Is he off message?

He also mentions that "Gays are trying to intimidate politicians into letting them do whatever they want. They are as bad as the IRA." in another thread . Is he off message?

How about O Cuiv ? Is he off message?

A lot of voices with different messages.

Like you said , I am disappointed that approx 16% of the population support FF, but I take consolation in the fact that 84% of our people don't support FF.

jonniebgood1 · 16-07-2012 9:25am

raymon wrote: »

I am disappointed that approx 16% of the population support FF, but I take consolation in the fact that 84% of our people don't support FF.

It is easier to chose who you don't want.

I think FF are a joke. I mean this quite literally rather than just an aimless shot at them. No matter what their message is currently they still cannot be taken seriously (hence joke reference). It is not possible for them to comment with integrity on many issues. For example they criticise the state of the health system and budget and the government response is to easy.

However I would ask of anti-FF people (include myself in that) whether at the next election they would prefer to see a FF recovery or SF rise which would position them in a possible gevernmental position?

raymon · 16-07-2012 10:21am

Good point Jonnie . I agree - FF are a joke. Both options (FF recovery or SF emergence) are very bleak.

I am disappointed that no alternative is emerging.

Tea drinker · 16-07-2012 10:22am

In a nordie accent:
"They haven't gone away you know !!!!!!!!!"

It's important we stay away from FF for some time yet, they and their supporters aren't suitably contrite for the economic treason they perpetrated here.
It's quite possible more people will die from suicide, hospital closures and reduction of services than died in the years of the troubles.

Continuing and deepening recession is the only way people will figure out their votes and decisions led to our economic malaise, and possibly the biggest proprty crash in the world in among some world class banking collapses.
A fattened public service kept passive for voting purposes along with a little villages kept in check courtesy of a pub and token local investments.
Everywhere in Ireland is a village, the whole of Dublin is a collection of villages. All voting against each other and not in the greater national interest. When the nation is in trouble local votes become meaningless, another lesson not quite got through yet.

I don't blame FF as much as their enablers. We are screwed because not enough people cared about voting against corruption.

raymon wrote: »

Like you said , I am disappointed that approx 16% of the population support FF, but I take consolation in the fact that 84% of our people don't support FF.

You still aren't getting it - FF could be killing babies on O'Connel street and some people will still support them

poeticseraphim · 16-07-2012 12:26pm

Sorry but what has FF done to change to make it time to go back?

It really is surprising how delusional some people are. SF are no the main opposition ..the only way to oppose them is really to votáil FG...and SF will remain the main opposition for some time i would think.

That is not just because of a lack of alternatives. It is because large portion of the Irish public has gone hard left. There is no moderate left alternative.

Depending on what happens between now and the next election is what will determine whether or FG get relected ....if things stay as they are i imagine tey will....if however Europe gives us another referendum or goes off kilter or thigs take a dive there is a chance of seeing some odd coalitions possibly with SF playing a part.

The first party to break the taboo and form a coalition with SF will make them both real players. And it is not talked about but this country usually has coalitions so eventually i imagine one party will bite the bullet for political gain and team up with SF.

Mr.Micro · 16-07-2012 1:59pm

FF has what to offer? It currently has 19 members in the Dail and several of them are stale leftovers from the last Government. Its a small party now with no need for a deputy leader, as O'Cuiv lost his role after becoming confused. Its in steady hands now with Martin at the helm with all his experience of the 11 years he spent as a Minister.

COYW · 16-07-2012 2:42pm

realies wrote: »

If as in 1994 Fine gael was able to form a government with the Labour Party and democratic left,and then the PD,s & greens going into coalition with FF.I wouldn't put anything past any of them

FG under Enda Kenny will never go into power with SF. It would be a massively risky move and it would alienate some of their core vote. FF would even be a safer bet for them and that is saying something! SF in its current form have to much baggage. Most middle and upper class people won't give them the time of day for another generation at least. I have little doubt the SF would jump to centre-right if they got a sniff of power with the likes of FG but FG would be nutty to do so.

The hard left don't have the numbers and much as I don't like the hard left, they wouldn't "sell-out" and jump into power with a centre-right party like FG.

michael999999 · 16-07-2012 8:25pm

So we get the news today that fianna fails party chums from the Galway tent, the developers some of who crippled this country are being paid over 200k a year by NAMA.

Didnt FF do well to set up NAMA and give there friends a nice little earner before they got thrown out of Gov!

Remember FF motto paycheques before principles!

southsiderosie · 16-07-2012 8:52pm

michael999999 wrote: »

So we get the news today that fianna fails party chums from the Galway tent, the developers some of who crippled this country are being paid over 200k a year by NAMA.

Didnt FF do well to set up NAMA and give there friends a nice little earner before they got thrown out of Gov!

Remember FF motto paycheques before principles!

MOD NOTE:

News from where? As I noted earlier in this very thread, if you are going to make these kinds of comments in this forum, you need to provide a link. From the charter:

When offering an opinion, please state so. Please do not present an opinion as "fact" - it only leads to flaming and a moderator may demand further evidence.

When offering fact, please offer relevant linkage, or at least source. Simply saying "a quick search on google...." is often, but not always, enough. If you do not do this upon posting, then please be willing to do so on request.

Dubhlinner · 16-07-2012 11:12pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It is easier to chose who you don't want.

I think FF are a joke. I mean this quite literally rather than just an aimless shot at them. No matter what their message is currently they still cannot be taken seriously (hence joke reference). It is not possible for them to comment with integrity on many issues. For example they criticise the state of the health system and budget and the government response is to easy.

However I would ask of anti-FF people (include myself in that) whether at the next election they would prefer to see a FF recovery or SF rise which would position them in a possible gevernmental position?

Sinn Fein have already gotten more like fianna fail on social issues like abortion. It won't be long before they get like them on economical ones too

SF supporters will say they won't but wouldn't a been so long ago they'd say marty would never bend the knee to Mrs Windsor

raymon · 17-07-2012 6:20am

I have 2 questions for the OP "Canvasser"

1) Has the OPs question "Is it time to go back to Fianna Fáil?" been answered

and

2) Does the OP feel that his views on Lehmans causing the bankrupting of Ireland and gays being like the IRA , reflect the grass roots of FF.?

Canvasser · 17-07-2012 11:04am

People say they can't forgive FF for spending too much. But they'll forgive Fine Gael for this

Laminations · 17-07-2012 11:11am

I'd imagine that's the type of salute you do to FF every morning since it looks like you've submitted to a life of servitude. Blindly loyal following is not healthy

Dubhlinner · 17-07-2012 1:59pm

Canvasser wrote: »

People say they can't forgive FF for spending too much. But they'll forgive Fine Gael for this

If this is the bullsh*t FF members come out with then no..people will never go back to them

Canvasser · 17-07-2012 2:05pm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

If this is the bullsh*t FF members come out with then no..people will never go back to them

It's not BS to point out that the first leader of Fine Gael was a fascist who lead a force to fight alongside the nazis in Spain.

NIMAN · 17-07-2012 2:10pm

Canvasser wrote: »

Fianna Fáil were at least honest [

Can these 2 terms exist together?

As for the current Gov, well to be fair to them they inherited an absolute disaster from FF, and to expect them to have it fixed in a year or two is just silly. At least give them their term to make a difference, and then vote them out if they have underperformed.

I hope I don't see FF back in Gov anytime soon - they deserve to suffer for a long time for what they did.

I agree that in coming years/election SF might turn out to be the big gainers, although some of the antics of their friends in the united left aren't giving that side of the Dail a good reputation either.

K-9 · 17-07-2012 2:18pm

Canvasser wrote: »

It's not BS to point out that the first leader of Fine Gael was a fascist who lead a force to fight alongside the nazis in Spain.

It is off topic though. Please keep replies on topic.

steelcityblues · 17-07-2012 3:25pm

Time to go back like it is time for an ex-alcoholic to go back on the booze!

michael999999 · 17-07-2012 8:14pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

MOD NOTE:

News from where? As I noted earlier in this very thread, if you are going to make these kinds of comments in this forum, you need to provide a link. From the charter:

It was in the Irish Independent yesterday.

Ill try and stick a link up, if i can!

Shea O'Meara · 17-07-2012 8:18pm

Canvasser wrote: »

After the collapse of Lehman Brothers and the global downturn it was inevitable there would be a recession in Ireland.

To an extent, made a lot worse by the property bubble and gross mismanagement by the FFail government. I thought this was well covered and fessed up to by all concerned including FFail?
To correct your post; Lehman or not, it was inevitable Ireland would have it's own recession.

Canvasser wrote: »

At the last election the people took their anger out on Fianna Fáil and turned towards Fine Gael/Labour. This is understandable but ignores the fact that that when in opposition Fine Gael and Labour were actually calling for lower taxes and higher spending. The crisis would be even worse today had the Fine Gael manifesto from 2007 been implemented.

Why the scare tactics? We got this in the previous election, 'Vote Labour or Fine Geal and we'll have the IMF on our doorstep!' which is kind of funny now, well in a dark way. I would suggest voting for anyone bar FFail does not ignore the most important fact that they were and are the worst possible government for Ireland, lies about the economy, which didn't get 'boomier' and incompetence to the point of treason.

Canvasser wrote: »

Fine Gael in particular have been very arrogant in government. Hogan and Reilly are just gombeen men in politics for personal gain.

Compared to FFail? Founded by and ran by thiefs since inception?

Canvasser wrote: »

The 5 point plan was an absolute joke and none of it has been implemented. Where are the 100,000 new jobs that were promised? Where is the free GP care they promised? What about burning the bondholders? Labour are also implementing none of their centre left policies and are trying to use gay marriage to distract from their failures.

Agreed, they need do more. Investigate FFail, the banks along criminal lines and the private bondholders? well, that's the risk they took, not the tax payers burden.

Canvasser wrote: »

Fianna Fáil were at least honest in 2011....

How many nano seconds? Do you have proof? Did it have to be measured by the CERN Hadron Collider?

Canvasser wrote: »

....and outlined what needed to be done. Fine Gael/Labour are essentially just implementing FF policies while pretending to be new and different.

I believe everyone, including the lowly taxpayers were pretty much painted into a corner by FFail.

Is it time to go back to FFail? Have they cleared out the corrupt dynasties? Have they held current members found to have done wrong to account? No, so no. Why FFail at all? Why do FFail folk only see FFail? Form or join another party that isn't going to f*** you and the country over for a back hander. Have some loyalty to your country over your party for once.

michael999999 · 17-07-2012 8:19pm

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Paying developers €100,000 each saves money, says NAMA

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By Peter Flanagan

Monday July 16 2012

THE National Asset Management Agency (NAMA) has defended itself for paying salaries of €100,000 and more to a number of its debtors, claiming the strategy is saving the state millions of euro.
The agency was criticised for paying 66 developers who are in debt to NAMA more than €100,000 a year.
Three of those are being paid €200,000 -- the same as Taoiseach Enda Kenny.
However, the state bad bank said the strategy was by far the most cost effective method of managing its property empire, which now stretches into the tens of billion of euro.
A NAMA spokesman said paying its debtors who were co-operating with the agency cost a "tiny" amount "compared to the alternative costs we would face by the use of alternative managers".
Two of the developers earning more than €200,000 a year have been named as Sean Mulryan and Joe O'Reilly.
Mr Mulryan has retained day- to-day control over his Ballymore Properties firm, which originally owed NAMA €1.5bn.
It is understood that Mr Mulryan has reduced that debt by at least 50pc through a mixture of aggressive cost cutting and the sale of assets and is on course to clear all his debts.
His firm still has a multibillion-euro property portfolio, with huge interests in London's docklands as well as in Ireland and Czech Republic.
It is currently promoting a number of developments including the Pan Peninsula in London, which consists of 762 apartments including a private cinema and gym.
Ballymore employs close to 500 staff.
Mr Mulryan, through his spokesman, maintained the work he is doing would command a salary of €1.5m in the private sector. Joe O'Reilly's Chartered Land is best known for developing the Dundrum shopping centre. He is believed to have had debts of €3bn when his loans were transferred to NAMA.
Addressing the Oireachtas Public Accounts Committee a fortnight ago, NAMA chief executive Brendan McDonagh said the agency would have to add another 1,000 staff to its 200 current employees if it were to dump the debtors it was using at the moment.
Scratch
"If we were to appoint receivers to these portfolios, we would need to build up a knowledge base from scratch or bring new people in and pay them the required private sector rate," he said.
"For a portfolio of upwards of €1bn, you will probably pay a receiver in the region of €500,000 and €1m a year to manage the assets.
Meanwhile a number of developers are said to be using bankruptcy proceedings in the UK to effectively hide assets from NAMA and banks here trying to claim funds owed to them.
NAMA, however, insisted that it was "monitoring these moves very closely".
- Peter Flanagan
Irish Independent

emo72 · 17-07-2012 8:24pm

Will never vote vote for ff. Won't be voting for fg labour either. Incredible the job that the mainstream parties have done. I would have swore never to vote for sf but now it looks increasingly possible.

Well done those guys.

southsiderosie · 18-07-2012 2:37am

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nuac · 19-07-2012 9:49am

Dr Reilly seems to be on a campaign to make FF look good

what is the reason for keeping the two Labour Ministers in health out of the loop?

johngalway · 19-07-2012 1:31pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Fine Gael will get a massive bounce back in the polls when they eventually replace Phil with a talented communicator and politician such as Fidelma Healy Eames or Paschal O Donoghue.

Fidelma Healy Screams :eek:

Apply liberally to mouth please:

Mr.Micro · 19-07-2012 5:34pm

nuac wrote: »

Dr Reilly seems to be on a campaign to make FF look good

what is the reason for keeping the two Labour Ministers in health out of the loop?

Its not exactly a brief that makes a Minister popular is it? Could Labour afford the unpopularity and grief that goes with the brief?

Zombrex · 19-07-2012 5:52pm

Canvasser wrote: »

After the collapse of Lehman Brothers and the global downturn it was inevitable there would be a recession in Ireland. At the last election the people took their anger out on Fianna Fáil and turned towards Fine Gael/Labour. This is understandable but ignores the fact that that when in opposition Fine Gael and Labour were actually calling for lower taxes and higher spending. The crisis would be even worse today had the Fine Gael manifesto from 2007 been implemented.

Fine Gael in particular have been very arrogant in government. Hogan and Reilly are just gombeen men in politics for personal gain. The 5 point plan was an absolute joke and none of it has been implemented. Where are the 100,000 new jobs that were promised? Where is the free GP care they promised? What about burning the bondholders? Labour are also implementing none of their centre left policies and are trying to use gay marriage to distract from their failures.

Fianna Fáil were at least honest in 2011 and outlined what needed to be done. Fine Gael/Labour are essentially just implementing FF policies while pretending to be new and different.

Absolutely not. It was FF disastrous policies in the noughties that got us into this mess. People can play What-if games over whether FG would have done the same or not. The fact is FF did. They were in power and they bankrupted the country (with a little help from the ignorant masses who ignored warnings and kept voting these idiots back in)

FF need a re-invention. They need to get rid of the old guard who did so much damage and come back as a new party devoid of the populist nonsense and corruption that defined the party up to now. But frankly I think that is years away from happening.

Nodin · 19-07-2012 8:43pm

nuac wrote: »

Dr Reilly seems to be on a campaign to make FF look good

what is the reason for keeping the two Labour Ministers in health out of the loop?

Apparently - 'personal relations' between himself and Shorthall have been non-existent for some time. e-mails and messages via civil servants is the preferred mode of communication. The exact why of it is unknown to me.

Is it time to go back to Fianna Fáil?

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