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Coming home? Are you thinking about it?

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    #122
    BailMeOut
    Registered Users Posts: 2,966 ✭✭✭BailMeOut


    We moved back after about 16 years away (mostly in USA) in 2010. Our oldest child hitting 1st grade/1st class was always the time we decided to be where we thought we'd settle down which ended up being Ireland. Timing was not great as I had a very good job paying me very well and we came back in middle of a recession. I got work handy enough in Ireland (working for myself) and can honestly say that the entire experience has only been positive. It helped that our kids settled in so well and the local school and all they go is is excellent. Buying a house was very low as a priority so we rented for 4 years in 3 houses in 3 very different areas in, near and far outside the town and have recently purchased in area we liked the most.

    So so far no regrets and the move has pretty much exceeded our expectations.

    That said the whole process of quitting a job, selling our home, pulling the kids out of their school, saying goodbye to lots of friends was very stressful but it did work out for us.


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    #123
    FURET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 685 ✭✭✭FURET


    Brilliant post by Wompa1. It captures pretty much my situation, except that I have transitioned from the idea of moving back to Ireland after x years to the idea that I'd like to be a global nomad with my wife.

    When I initially moved, like you said, it was just with the intention of saving something like 50k and then moving back home. But I quickly found myself questioning everything about that plan.

    Firstly, the financial situation was not as I expected. I was able to save a lot more than I anticipated, in a lot shorter time frame. My 50k target was quickly surpassed and became 100k, which was also surpassed. Then I set new, ever more ambitious targets. Now the target is in the seven-figure range.

    I also unexpectedly met my wife here. And that was a curveball with regard to moving "home", because she's from SE Asia.

    After we'd analyzed our combined earning power and embraced unexpected career opportunities, we began to see that a range of possibilities we'd never envisaged were available. So now we're inclined to stay in our current location for the next few years. During this time, we hope to become financially independent, and we have an excellent chance of achieving that goal. We have also not bought property, because we don't know where we want to settle.

    So for me, I just started to question my long-standing assumption that I should somehow naturally go home after a period of time. When I questioned it, I realized that there was no need or reason to go home at all.


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    #124
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    FURET wrote: »
    Brilliant post by Wompa1. It captures pretty much my situation, except that I have transitioned from the idea of moving back to Ireland after x years to the idea that I'd like to be a global nomad with my wife.

    When I initially moved, like you said, it was just with the intention of saving something like 50k and then moving back home. But I quickly found myself questioning everything about that plan.

    Firstly, the financial situation was not as I expected. I was able to save a lot more than I anticipated, in a lot shorter time frame. My 50k target was quickly surpassed and became 100k, which was also surpassed. Then I set new, ever more ambitious targets. Now the target is in the seven-figure range.

    I also unexpectedly met my wife here. And that was a curveball with regard to moving "home", because she's from SE Asia.

    After we'd analyzed our combined earning power and embraced unexpected career opportunities, we began to see that a range of possibilities we'd never envisaged were available. So now we're inclined to stay in our current location for the next few years. During this time, we hope to become financially independent, and we have an excellent chance of achieving that goal. We have also not bought property, because we don't know where we want to settle.

    So for me, I just started to question my long-standing assumption that I should somehow naturally go home after a period of time. When I questioned it, I realized that there was no need or reason to go home at all.

    You haven't decided where to settle so you haven't bought anywhere. You also have no reason to go home at all. What's your criteria for where you want to settle. I've tossed around different ideas myself. I'd be interested to hear from somebody else in the same boat. I'm not money driven or career driven. I'm successful now, making and saving good money but I hope there's more to life than that. So, I'm planning for that part of things.


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    #125
    FURET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 685 ✭✭✭FURET


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    You haven't decided where to settle so you haven't bought anywhere. You also have no reason to go home at all. What's your criteria for where you want to settle. I've tossed around different ideas myself. I'd be interested to hear from somebody else in the same boat. I'm not money driven or career driven. I'm successful now, making and saving good money but I hope there's more to life than that. So, I'm planning for that part of things.

    As we grow old, living in Ireland will probably be important, so it will likely be the place for one of our homes. We want a reasonably low-cost option, so we would not buy a big house. And it would be in a city like Cork. But we will not buy it for many many years as there is simply no need to buy it sooner than that, and we don't know when exactly it would be. But when we do eventually buy, we'll just pay cash at the time and not be rushed or stressed about it.

    We would also like a place for the winter. . so we will probably buy an apartment in the tropics, by the beach, where we can spend the European winter. We plan to retire by our mid-40s, so there's hopefully a lot of life to be lived (and snorkelling to be done) before we become decrepit!

    Bottom line, work first and consider where to buy accommodation only when we're actually ready to retire - and then, cash only. There is simply no need for us to make firm decisions at this stage. We aim to have the means, by the time we're ready, to buy whatever we like, wherever we like.

    That's the plan anyway. In the meantime, we enjoy life and where we live.


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    #126
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    FURET wrote: »
    As we grow old, living in Ireland will probably be important, so it will likely be the place for one of our homes. We want a reasonably low-cost option, so we would not buy a big house. And it would be in a city like Cork. But we will not buy it for many many years as there is simply no need to buy it sooner than that, and we don't know when exactly it would be. But when we do eventually buy, we'll just pay cash at the time and not be rushed or stressed about it.

    We would also like a place for the winter. . so we will probably buy an apartment in the tropics, by the beach, where we can spend the European winter. We plan to retire by our mid-40s, so there's hopefully a lot of life to be lived (and snorkelling to be done) before we become decrepit!

    Bottom line, work first and consider where to buy accommodation only when we're actually ready to retire - and then, cash only. There is simply no need for us to make firm decisions at this stage. We aim to have the means, by the time we're ready, to buy whatever we like, wherever we like.

    That's the plan anyway. In the meantime, we enjoy life and where we live.

    Are you in the US?

    I thought about staying and then buying in Ireland a place in the US. I don't think I can hold out that long, though. At my current rate, I can have enough to buy a pretty good house in a nice area back home within 2 years. Without the need for a mortgage and assuming the Dollar doesn't completely collapse on it's arse...It would be great if I could keep a job in the states and just work remote from Ireland for maybe a little less than what I'm making now. I'd take less pay to do that.

    I've had a couple of jobs that would allow me to work from Ireland for a few weeks a year but not full time. Maybe some day, eh!

    I really like Ireland. I had notions about Italy but found a lot of the people to be rude. Australia was depressing to me for many of the same reasons the US is. If I could live in Santa Barbara or Monterey in CA without worrying about the water shortage, I'd jump at that. Or Hawaii without the risk of being stuck there when a Tsunami hits or Volcano blows it's top.

    In Ireland, we really don't have many worries


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    #127
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    In Ireland, we really don't have many worries

    Which makes listening to Liveline as a (partially) returned emigrant a curious experience! :pac:


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    #128
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    Which makes listening to Liveline as a (partially) returned emigrant a curious experience! :pac:

    Funny you should say that. I actually listen to some of the Irish phone in radio shows when at work as a type of therapy.

    What people complain about is so inconsequential. After 5+ year living back there, I'd bet I'd get riled up by inconsequential things again. It's just human nature but right now...perspective wise. It makes me realize how great life is there.


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    #129
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Over the years, I've found that people all complain about the same (inconsequential) stuff whereever they are. :-)

    On a practical note, though, before I started my series of "suck it and see" visits back to Ireland, I used to listen to several programmes on the RTE player (aswell as skimming boards.ie and the Irish news websites). It makes it easier to jump into conversations without having to ask "what's that about?" ten times a minute. As a consequence, if you're already on the same wavelength as the natives, it makes it easier to concentrate on the important stuff (works just as well when moving to another country).

    I've already kind of done what you have planned - got the house, mortgage free, and the "early retirement" of a sort. After ten years, I'm working again, mainly because the children have grown up and gone and there's only so much gardening and renovation you can do in a week before the ATM tells you you've got to wait till next week. :-) I'm not interested in six-figure salaries, but have re-adjusted my objectives all the same (hence looking for work in Ireland) and re-re-adjusted them again in the last couple of months. Right now, I'm doing the "nomad" thing within France but there's an opportunity close to home (French home) that I'll interview for next week and if the T&Cs are satisfactory, I'll probably take it and settle down again ... at least till my fifties!


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    #130
    Suaimhneach
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 4,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Suaimhneach


    Undertow wrote: »
    A compromise between the 2- probably set up in the UK! The economy seems to be booming, and its close enough that I can take trips home pretty frequently. The best of both worlds eh!

    I hear what you're saying about the good times sowing seeds of doubt in your head! It's a constant battle for me too. I've had more low days than good days this year though, so it came to a head back in May and I just bit the bullet and booked a one-way flight out of here for later in the year! It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, but in the couple of months that have passed by since, I can't say I've had any regrets either, so I'm pretty confident now that I've made the right call! :)

    I've thought of London but OH doesnt like London, and cant blame him. Though I could manage there I think. I'd be home once a month I recon.

    Delighted for you to be so excited and nearly home :) I hope you'll keep it up to date about how it goes.
    CelticRambler wrote: »
    @Suaimhneach: is there any chance that the company you work for could send you to work in another part of the States for a few months, even a couple of years?.

    I've given this serious thought. Seattle seems like a dream-city, and we could probably find work there but it's further away than SFO. Then we thought of east cost, easier to get home "only five hours". But then you have to face down those winters.

    If anything I wish I had done that a year or two ago, because definitely a big part of the decision is that I dont love it here. California is *beautiful* and incredible, and we roadtrip/nomad it up, but the lifestyle/ability to settle isnt there for me.
    Wompa1 wrote: »
    It's all with the goal to move home, though. My ideal situation is make enough money to buy a home back in Ireland and get into a position in which all I need to worry about is the cost of living e.g. bills, food and petrol. If I can get that working at McDonalds, I really don't care! I don't need to buy to fill this insatiable Irish need to own my own home. It's so I won't have to pay rent ever again and I know I can retire without the worry of rent in the future

    I've got an American fiance which complicates things a little for me but she can see how unhappy I am here. I think she's willing to move to Ireland. I'm trying to convince her to go over and then she can become a citizen after 3 or 4 years and go back to college. Something which would cost a fortune here. I think I'd like to have my kids in America, though...which means waiting longer. Getting them an American Social Security and Passport may be worth it to give them opportunities in the future.

    My current goal is save as much as possible. Have one or two kids. And move to Ireland in the next 5 years. At that stage. I'll have been here for almost 10 years.

    I'm really scared of going home and it not being the same. That 10 years away is too much. I'm also worried that my Fiance will hate it. This causes me as much stress as my jobs do!

    Anyways, you're definitely not alone!!

    Thanks for this :) I like your plan, can easily see it creeping into staying for 20 but definitely it would only ever be for the right reasons. Have had a lot of people say the passport thing to us, + opportunities but honestly, you can go as many places in the world on an irish passport as a US one, so the only opportunity that is 'extra' is ease of getting to america someday, if they want to?

    Can you guys ever take a long holiday / career break in ireland and see how much she likes it? Community + schools + lifestyle would be a big part of how much she'd be happy, esp once kids are in the mix. Might be nice to try it out.
    CelticRambler wrote: »
    Saving with a target in mind is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, having something to aim for is certainly a good way of coping with homesickness/lonliness/just-not-rightness; but if aiming for that something is always at the back of your mind, it'll nibble away at everything else that might lead to a long-term plan - like relationships, or just settling down in one place.

    My sister is that situation, working in an "international" setting in Germany, with a finanical goal for herself and her family. But she could be anywhere on the planet, has no real life in Germany, spends as much money coming back to Ireland for every holiday as she's saving (always peak fares so as not to take her teenage children out of school) so allowing for inflation, reaching the target takes a little bit longer every year.

    Yeah, agree totally on that. We dont have a set goal in mind but have been really fortunate so far. I think the having no life wouldnt make it worthwhile :(
    BailMeOut wrote: »
    We moved back after about 16 years away (mostly in USA) in 2010. Our oldest child hitting 1st grade/1st class was always the time we decided to be where we thought we'd settle down which ended up being Ireland. Timing was not great as I had a very good job paying me very well and we came back in middle of a recession. I got work handy enough in Ireland (working for myself) and can honestly say that the entire experience has only been positive. It helped that our kids settled in so well and the local school and all they go is is excellent. Buying a house was very low as a priority so we rented for 4 years in 3 houses in 3 very different areas in, near and far outside the town and have recently purchased in area we liked the most.

    So so far no regrets and the move has pretty much exceeded our expectations.

    That said the whole process of quitting a job, selling our home, pulling the kids out of their school, saying goodbye to lots of friends was very stressful but it did work out for us.

    That's really lovely to hear, so nice to know it can work for people. We dont even have kids yet or many close ties so hopefully that'll make it easier.
    FURET wrote: »
    After we'd analyzed our combined earning power and embraced unexpected career opportunities, we began to see that a range of possibilities we'd never envisaged were available. So now we're inclined to stay in our current location for the next few years. During this time, we hope to become financially independent, and we have an excellent chance of achieving that goal. We have also not bought property, because we don't know where we want to settle.

    So for me, I just started to question my long-standing assumption that I should somehow naturally go home after a period of time. When I questioned it, I realized that there was no need or reason to go home at all.

    I would *love* to do this, we went to NZ on our honeymoon and I would gladly go spend some years there before "settling", and would love to live in various parts of the US for some time... the OH doesnt like that nomad idea, loves his security, so it takes that off the table. :( I think this is also something that Irish people dont consider as an option so I love that you're doing it.
    CelticRambler wrote: »
    I've already kind of done what you have planned - got the house, mortgage free, and the "early retirement" of a sort. After ten years, I'm working again, mainly because the children have grown up and gone and there's only so much gardening and renovation you can do in a week before the ATM tells you you've got to wait till next week. :-) I'm not interested in six-figure salaries, but have re-adjusted my objectives all the same (hence looking for work in Ireland) and re-re-adjusted them again in the last couple of months. Right now, I'm doing the "nomad" thing within France but there's an opportunity close to home (French home) that I'll interview for next week and if the T&Cs are satisfactory, I'll probably take it and settle down again ... at least till my fifties!

    You've lived the dream! You went home, mortgage free, had kids! Early retirement! Working again! More nomad travel! I wanna hear more. How did this work out for you when you moved back?

    See, *this* is a good reminder for me that whatever we decide doesnt have to be perfect or forever. Sure America right now isnt working out - doesnt mean no-where will work out, or that I cant do 10 years at home and then travel again if we want. Mmmm...

    Thanks again, all round for insightful and different answers. Just had an interesting two weeks personally. Mother in law was in hospital, but out after two days, but very tired. Then two days ago, father in law was in with an ulcer bleed, that we just found out could have killed him if he'd gone in later. So right now, he'll be grand, but he did literally nearly die... so wtf. Just one of those things, but for me makes me just wanna be home, career and savings be damned.


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    #131
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Suaimhneach wrote: »
    You've lived the dream! You went home, mortgage free, had kids! Early retirement! Working again! More nomad travel! I wanna hear more. How did this work out for you when you moved back?

    Ehhhh ... think I might have confused you about where "home" is. I spent a decade in England, and chose to move on because it was (for us) incompatible with family life (not enough school holidays, too much hassle taking the children away in term-time, too much hassle getting them to after-school activities, too small a house, and for me, a permanent conflict between work/professional ambition and family.

    So made a three-year plan (synched with the expiry of the lease on my professional premises) and stuck to it. We did go home-home (i.e. Ireland) in 2003 to see if it might be the right place, but we saw the writing on the architect-designed wall and scarpered, taking the proceeds from the sale of our house in England with us to France.

    After that it was "typical family life": highs and lows, stuff working out, stuff going pear-shaped. Living in France is 50-50 nightmare and dream, but learning the language and getting stuck in makes all the difference. :cool:

    The rest of that story would need a lot of long nights by the fire (drop in some winter if you're in the vicinity!) so skipping forward to the present: the family's grown up, like families do, and I don't need to be "at home" all the time, so I started looking at alternatives, including going back to Ireland, or even England.

    It took two years of coming and going and looking at the figures and listening to Joe Duffy and hanging out with relatives and friends in Ireland to realise that home for me is my hectare in France, and the reasons are all the same as they were when we first moved: postive reasons for moving there, rather than negative "just get away from here" ones.

    For the last six months, that message is reinforced every time I finish up a contract and drive home. It sounds really Hallmarky, but I get a great buzz out of pulling up outside the house, opening the front door and walking straight out the back to stand in the garden. It's probably the best thing about working away for a couple of months at a time! :)


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    #132
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    Suaimhneach wrote: »
    I've given this serious thought. Seattle seems like a dream-city, and we could probably find work there but it's further away than SFO. Then we thought of east cost, easier to get home "only five hours". But then you have to face down those winters.

    Thanks for this :) I like your plan, can easily see it creeping into staying for 20 but definitely it would only ever be for the right reasons. Have had a lot of people say the passport thing to us, + opportunities but honestly, you can go as many places in the world on an irish passport as a US one, so the only opportunity that is 'extra' is ease of getting to america someday, if they want to?

    Can you guys ever take a long holiday / career break in ireland and see how much she likes it? Community + schools + lifestyle would be a big part of how much she'd be happy, esp once kids are in the mix. Might be nice to try it out.

    Seattle is brutal in the winter but gets a nicer Summer than Ireland. I got up there a few times a year. It's beautiful.

    We just went to Ireland for 3 weeks and 2 days. That's as long as we'll get. American companies aren't too keen on giving time off. The benefit of the US passport is the ability to live and work in the US at a moments notice.


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    #133
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    I can never see myself going home. Aleays wanted to leave, even in boom times, just always felt there was sonewhere out there where I'd fit in much better. About a week after I finished college I was on my way. Did the teaching English thing for a bit, travelled loads and had a ball and I'm gradually settling down in Spain. My GF has a stable job with a good future so I'm looking to find something like that for myself.

    Personally, I don't think being close to friends and family is such a big deal for me and definitely wouldn't be a reason for me to move home. I keep in touch with them through various means and we see each other when we can but living my life and doing what I want is my priority.

    I travelled all round Ireland when I was a kid so when I do go home, it's just non-stop visits and I don't get to relax so it's not a holiday at all, it's actually quite stressful. If people are that desperate to see me, they can come here, it's not far away.

    Learning the language, wherever you are, will open doors and make it easier to really feel like you are living in that place and not on some kind of extended working holiday.


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    #134
    iusedtoknow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭iusedtoknow


    HalloweenJack wrote: »
    I can never see myself going home. Aleays wanted to leave, even in boom times, just always felt there was sonewhere out there where I'd fit in much better. About a week after I finished college I was on my way. Did the teaching English thing for a bit, travelled loads and had a ball and I'm gradually settling down in Spain. My GF has a stable job with a good future so I'm looking to find something like that for myself.

    Personally, I don't think being close to friends and family is such a big deal for me and definitely wouldn't be a reason for me to move home. I keep in touch with them through various means and we see each other when we can but living my life and doing what I want is my priority.

    I travelled all round Ireland when I was a kid so when I do go home, it's just non-stop visits and I don't get to relax so it's not a holiday at all, it's actually quite stressful. If people are that desperate to see me, they can come here, it's not far away.

    Learning the language, wherever you are, will open doors and make it easier to really feel like you are living in that place and not on some kind of extended working holiday.

    Where in Spain are you? I started in Barcelona and eventually moved to Madrid. Huge differences between the cities. I'm lucky that I get to head back to Barcelona 3 or 4 times a year to see the in-laws.

    TBH, Spain is "home" to me. I lived most of my 20's there, a huge amount of friends are there.

    What you say is true about the language. Even when my folks would come out to visit, they were "surprised" that I would be at work at 7am, leave at 6 and that my wife would be at university until 11pm - they didn't think that people in spain "worked that hard".
    I came across a lot of people that would move to Barcelona for a year to "teach" english - drink and piss away their money and go home within a few months.

    Suerte!


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    #135
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    I'm in Cordoba. I did my Erasmus in Madrid and loved it there so that's what convinced to come back when I got the chance. Tbh, I'd love to go back to Madrid but I just don't see my GF going for it, unfortunately.

    I've met loadsa expats here who just never got into the Spanish way of life and then that was their reason for leaving. They just expected to be able to live as they did at home but with better weather. A lot of them had only ever experienced the Costa del Sol or the Costa Brava or the Canaries which are engineered to cater for foreigners.

    Fact is, Spain is actually pretty different, especially with timetables. It's not an easy adjustment. I can understand completely that people might not like it but I've met loadsa foreigners who just didn't even try and adjust, they just bemoaned the differences. If that's your approach, in any place, you're not going to like it and it's going to suck.

    Living abroad really is what you make of it.


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    #136
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    I was wondering how the people over in Canada and Australia are feeling now. I can't figure out what is the actual truth here but I was reading something on Reddit which suggested Canadas threat of recession is very real.

    Canada has a very Oil driven economy. With the proposed deal with Iran and the US. It seems like the cost of fuel could fall to about $1 a gallon in the US in the next 2 years. The cost of oil is getting driven down in the Middle East by the US sourcing their own oil. Now the deal with Iran looks to put even more stress on the likes of the UAE, Saudi Arabia and I guess Canada.

    There's also been a long rumored downturn in China. That they tried to shine too bright too quickly. Kind of like ourselves, they overspent. This of course would have a drastic impact on Australia as they export so much to China. I spent a little time in Australia. I would be worried if I was there during a downturn. It's so expensive. The Aussies are a lot like the Americans...there's a lot of extreme views. I would think when things get tough, they'll take it out on the 'foreigners'

    Do people abroad have any plan B?


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    #137
    wuffly
    Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭wuffly


    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/business/economy/2015/07/02/UAE-to-finish-drafting-corporate-tax-VAT-laws-this-quarter.html

    http://7days.ae/fuel-prices-in-uae-to-be-deregulated-from-august-1/67063

    2 more reasons for my pros for leaving list!


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    #138
    Magico Gonzalez
    Registered Users Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭Magico Gonzalez


    I was thinking about it mainly due to work issues, in the end I got a new job with better conditions and so we're locked in for another 3 to 5 years.

    Feeling happy with the choice and started to look to buy some land and start building a weekend place outside the city.


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    #139
    FURET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 685 ✭✭✭FURET


    wuffly wrote: »
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/business/economy/2015/07/02/UAE-to-finish-drafting-corporate-tax-VAT-laws-this-quarter.html

    http://7days.ae/fuel-prices-in-uae-to-be-deregulated-from-august-1/67063

    2 more reasons for my pros for leaving list!

    Ah wuffly, come on now. Even if the UAE government introduced those things, how could it possibly be an argument in favor of going back to Ireland where half your income is deducted at source and petrol costs 1.4 euro per liter?


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    #140
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    wuffly wrote: »

    http://7days.ae/fuel-prices-in-uae-to-be-deregulated-from-august-1/67063

    2 more reasons for my pros for leaving list!

    The difference in the price of fuel is negated by the fact I'm driving a lot more over here due to how large the city is. That's just me, though


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    #141
    keithclancy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    FURET wrote: »
    Ah wuffly, come on now. Even if the UAE government introduced those things, how could it possibly be an argument in favor of going back to Ireland where half your income is deducted at source and petrol costs 1.4 euro per liter?

    Tax isn't that big a deal, as long as everyone is in the same boat then the spending power is the same and products raise or lower in price to match.

    That and there's some form of Social Security and your not completely screwed if you cannot pay your bills

    http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/abandoned-cars-in-their-thousands-cause-problems-for-dubai-communities


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    #142
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    It's becoming more and more evident we will move back. It's a complete role reversal, the OH is now talking about it but I'm more keen to stay. The main driver will be when kids come on the scene so we can bring them back closer to grandparents.
    Right now we're buying our first place here (Edinburgh) the market is really strong so we won't lose any money when we decide to move. With the exchange rate it should be a straight like for like swap property wise.


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    #143
    FURET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 685 ✭✭✭FURET


    keithclancy wrote: »
    Tax isn't that big a deal, as long as everyone is in the same boat then the spending power is the same and products raise or lower in price to match.

    That and there's some form of Social Security and your not completely screwed if you cannot pay your bills

    http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/abandoned-cars-in-their-thousands-cause-problems-for-dubai-communities

    Tax is a huge deal for me. It means I get to keep an extra EUR60k per year in my pocket. That's EUR300k over 5 years, invested at 8% per annum (also tax free) giving me just under EUR500k. Over 10 years, that's EUR1.1M. And that's only what I would have paid in tax. I don't want to be in the same boat as everyone else if everyone else is paying 50% in various taxes and having to work into their mid-60s. My wife and I are on course to retire by age 40. There are very few other places where professional couples can save well north of 10k euro per month, and a big part of the reason for that is the tax-free status of the UAE.

    So, purely in financial terms, even if the UAE raises the price of petrol by a few fils and introduces corporate tax (which they won't until other GCC countries do likewise), that would be no reason - fiscally - for an expat to return to Ireland. Social, cultural issues are something else entirely.


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    #144
    keithclancy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    FURET wrote: »
    Tax is a huge deal for me. It means I get to keep an extra EUR60k per year in my pocket. That's EUR300k over 5 years, invested at 8% per annum (also tax free) giving me just under EUR500k. Over 10 years, that's EUR1.1M. And that's only what I would have paid in tax. I don't want to be in the same boat as everyone else if everyone else is paying 50% in various taxes and having to work into their mid-60s. My wife and I are on course to retire by age 40. There are very few other places where professional couples can save well north of 10k euro per month, and a big part of the reason for that is the tax-free status of the UAE.

    So, purely in financial terms, even if the UAE raises the price of petrol by a few fils and introduces corporate tax (which they won't until other GCC countries do likewise), that would be no reason - fiscally - for an expat to return to Ireland. Social, cultural issues are something else entirely.

    Still wouldn't be worth it, if tax was that big a deal for me I'd just go for a job in NATO or a European Office, 3% Internal tax and all the benefits of European social security.

    E.G.
    http://www.epo.org/about-us/jobs/why/salary-benefits.html

    The living arrangement in UAE is just too wrong for me and they treat women and low paid workers terribly.

    Plus its a city that's not even supposed to exist in the middle of a dessert with a terrible human rights record, some of the Indian guys in work tell me stories of friends that basically ended up trapped in Dubai with a promise of work and had their passport taken off them and ended up living in a slum like container scenario in the middle of nowhere.

    In any case I think the Tax Contribution here is worth it for the services we get.


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    #145
    FURET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 685 ✭✭✭FURET


    keithclancy wrote: »
    Still wouldn't be worth it, if tax was that big a deal for me I'd just go for a job in NATO or a European Office, 3% Internal tax and all the benefits of European social security.

    E.G.
    http://www.epo.org/about-us/jobs/why/salary-benefits.html

    The living arrangement in UAE is just too wrong for me and they treat women and low paid workers terribly.

    Plus its a city that's not even supposed to exist in the middle of a dessert with a terrible human rights record, some of the Indian guys in work tell me stories of friends that basically ended up trapped in Dubai with a promise of work and had their passport taken off them and ended up living in a slum like container scenario in the middle of nowhere.

    In any case I think the Tax Contribution here is worth it for the services we get.

    Each to his own. I couldn't agree less. When you have a few million squirreled away you don't need European social security. It needs you.


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    #146
    keithclancy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    FURET wrote: »
    Each to his own. I couldn't agree less. When you have a few million squirreled away you don't need European social security. It needs you.

    I think you misunderstand it's not anything to do with money, more to do with living in a 3 tier society of expats, Emiratis and the hidden slaves who are trapped there.

    Switzerland would be a better option.


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    #147
    iusedtoknow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭iusedtoknow


    keithclancy wrote: »
    I think you misunderstand it's not anything to do with money, more to do with living in a 3 tier society of expats, Emiratis and the hidden slaves who are trapped there.

    Switzerland would be a better option.

    TBH...every society is like that

    I lived in Spain where there were tiers, at the bottom were the Latinos doing the work that spanish people didn't want to do - treated poorly, lived 3 families to apartment as they were supporting family in South America and illegal African refugees. The tiers in Spain were very clear Spanish->European->Chinese/Indian (mostly shopkeeers)->Latinos->Africans

    Here in the US, take your pick of the underbelly of society - illegal chinese and latinos, once again doing the work that americans don't want to do. Then you have your people here on H1b visas sponsored by indian firms that work the people ragged for a chance at "the american dream" but are kept at their jobs, as if they lose them...they have to leave (or try and get sponsored by another visa factory). Any illegals can't leave as they won't get back in...better the devil you know in the US

    And last but not least, Switzerland - a country I visit 6 times a year. Turkish and Bosnian/croat workers living many to an apartment, doing the work that the swiss don't want to do - but can get done cheap.


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    #148
    keithclancy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    iusedtoknow wrote: »
    TBH...every society is like that

    I lived in Spain where there were tiers, at the bottom were the Latinos doing the work that spanish people didn't want to do - treated poorly, lived 3 families to apartment as they were supporting family in South America and illegal African refugees. The tiers in Spain were very clear Spanish->European->Chinese/Indian (mostly shopkeeers)->Latinos->Africans

    Here in the US, take your pick of the underbelly of society - illegal chinese and latinos, once again doing the work that americans don't want to do. Then you have your people here on H1b visas sponsored by indian firms that work the people ragged for a chance at "the american dream" but are kept at their jobs, as if they lose them...they have to leave (or try and get sponsored by another visa factory). Any illegals can't leave as they won't get back in...better the devil you know in the US

    And last but not least, Switzerland - a country I visit 6 times a year. Turkish and Bosnian/croat workers living many to an apartment, doing the work that the swiss don't want to do - but can get done cheap.

    Also a bad situation, but those people have an option of going back to where they came from.

    People that come from India are tricked into going there and on arrival trapped indefinitely, so when they turn up they are indebted already and their passport taken away so they cannot leave the country.

    I've also never seen any literature in Spain or the U.S. (in hotels for example) that homosexuality is illegal and punishable by law.

    Traveling there with your partner is also a problem unless you are married.

    But I wouldn't choose the U.S. as a place to work either.


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    #149
    FURET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 685 ✭✭✭FURET


    keithclancy wrote: »
    I think you misunderstand it's not anything to do with money, more to do with living in a 3 tier society of expats, Emiratis and the hidden slaves who are trapped there.

    Switzerland would be a better option.

    Yeah, sorry, I find these reputedly moral arguments naive in the extreme. The world has seven billion people and most of them are dirt poor, and a great many of them are from the areas around the Gulf. I don't employ maids or nannies or tread on anyone's back, certainly no more than you do.

    Besides, I don't see how such a stance relates to "going back home". Presumably if someone felt strongly enough about it, they wouldn't move to the Gulf to begin with.


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    #150
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    keithclancy wrote: »
    I think you misunderstand it's not anything to do with money, more to do with living in a 3 tier society of expats, Emiratis and the hidden slaves who are trapped there.

    Switzerland would be a better option.

    I get what you're saying. I was very, very close to moving to Abu Dhabi for a job but it was about 9 months ago. I think they realized the price of oil was going to slump...it was a job working for one of the Royal Families businesses.

    What they offered was 20% on top of my current salary and a free place to live. But from what I could tell and from speaking to an accountant who also considered moving there...it wasn't worth it.

    I'm in the US, which, even though I really dislike some elements of living here, I have incredible opportunities. I'm actually already making more than I would have if I decided to go to the UAE (I am working 3 jobs to do it, though) but I'm working harder than I would have. I do quite a lot of presenting at conferences and contributing online, they were not ok with me doing that. Which also would have hurt me in the long run.

    From what I was told about going there. I would have been working with a mix of expats and locals. The locals had secure jobs for life. They were also paid very well. The expats were paid very well but could not advance inside their 3 year deal (Someone else on a different thread said that's not the same everywhere over there but it was for this place)....I was also told that there was only so far a non-local could move up in the company. I was also told, you need to maintain a certain demeanor as they detest any type of confrontation.

    In the end, I would have stunted my growth as 'professional'...it was a gamble. If I was happy to just go for the quick cash grab, it would have been ok. If I want long term sustainability, I believe staying in the US for a few years was the right choice.
    iusedtoknow wrote: »
    TBH...every society is like that

    I lived in Spain where there were tiers, at the bottom were the Latinos doing the work that spanish people didn't want to do - treated poorly, lived 3 families to apartment as they were supporting family in South America and illegal African refugees. The tiers in Spain were very clear Spanish->European->Chinese/Indian (mostly shopkeeers)->Latinos->Africans

    Here in the US, take your pick of the underbelly of society - illegal chinese and latinos, once again doing the work that americans don't want to do. Then you have your people here on H1b visas sponsored by indian firms that work the people ragged for a chance at "the american dream" but are kept at their jobs, as if they lose them...they have to leave (or try and get sponsored by another visa factory). Any illegals can't leave as they won't get back in...better the devil you know in the US

    And last but not least, Switzerland - a country I visit 6 times a year. Turkish and Bosnian/croat workers living many to an apartment, doing the work that the swiss don't want to do - but can get done cheap.

    I had a conversation about this in Ireland back in May...Ireland is still slanted but it's at least a little closer to equal. Unfortunately, due to the economic downturn it seems like people who did get new jobs are starting on less than before 2008, yet the price of living has barely budged.

    Hopefully with the adjustments in the mortgage laws, things will level out a bit rent and buying wise. It would be great to see a boost in interest rates too for savings accounts...that's something that annoys me, over here. My interest rate is less than 1% Over in Ireland in a couple of places you can still get 10% on a 5 year fixed term savings


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    #151
    Tom Dunne
    Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    keithclancy wrote: »
    People that come from India are tricked into going there and on arrival trapped indefinitely, so when they turn up they are indebted already and their passport taken away so they cannot leave the country.

    There are many factual inaccuracies in the above statement. Have you ever actually been to the UAE? There are most certainly issues there is no denying it, however it is the exception, rather than the rule.
    keithclancy wrote: »
    I've also never seen any literature in Spain or the U.S. (in hotels for example) that homosexuality is illegal and punishable by law.

    Wasn't it illegal in Ireland up until relatively recently?
    keithclancy wrote: »
    Traveling there with your partner is also a problem unless you are married.

    Absolute nonsense. Yes, there are issues with living together in some situations, but traveling to the country as a couple is not an issue.


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