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P&D Advanced marathoning

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    #62
    seanynova
    Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭seanynova


    I picked up a P&D book today and had a look at the training schedules...from what I gather, people have had great sucess with this book with the taining schedules they followed.....but.....

    I feel that most of the training is at general aerobic pace & med/long run pace, with 1 session of LT training/week and and when not doing LT training its 1 session of VO2 workout/week.

    I'm no running expert(in fact im very new to the sport), but this seams a little low on the intensity side.
    I did read that VO2 max workouts are not the primary workout for marathon training, and I understand that, but would more LT pace runs be more benificial?
    Also, there are 4 LSR with race pace, again would more of these be more benificial?

    One week that looks low for exapmle, 10weeks into training, following a "recovery week"
    From 55-70mpw week 7
    Mon: Rest or cross train
    Tues: Recovery 6m am / 4m pm (Why recovery runs after a day rest?)
    Wed: 15m med long run
    Thurs: 5m recovery
    Fri: 12m with 7m @ LT
    Sat: 5m recovery
    Sun:22m LSR

    OK, it sounds like Im knocking the book and the training schedules, I'm not(or at least not trying to) because I have read about the sucess of these training schedules on the site but I expected more...

    Any enlightment on this, or can any "Daniels running formula" trainers shed some light on the training schedules in that book as compared to P&D?

    Thanks,


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    #63
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    The purpose of recovery runs is exactly that - to stimulate recovery (blood flow etc), which you won't get fully from a day of rest/cross training. Recovery from the LSR the previous Sunday, and recovery for the following day (a 15 mile aerobic run). The reason it's split over two sessions is that a 10 mile recovery run would be counter-productive.

    There is a lot of aerobic running in the 55-70, 70-85 and 85+ programs, but you'd expect that in the higher mileage programs. The week you listed is one of the peak mileage weeks (70 miles) which might explain why there aren't two 'sessions' that week. If you look at the two weeks following the one you listed:
    Week 6: Tuesday-V02max......Saturday-8k-15k race
    Week 5: Tuesday-V02max......Sunday-18m w/14 @PMP (the second 70mpw week)

    I followed the 55mpw 12 week program, and did a 20, 21 and 22 mile LSR (program called for just 2x20), and finished all of my LSRs at faster than PMP (none of which is prescribed). Like any program, it's a starting point, a menu, where you take what you want and supplement or remove different elements. Now it sounds like I'm defending P&D, which I don't mean to. As someone pointed out previously, it's designed to appeal to the largest cross-section of runners, so will definitely not appeal to all.


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    #64
    seanynova
    Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭seanynova


    I get what you mean about the recovery and it didnt click with me that the mileage was high that week....

    I'm going to keep the book anyway, has some good info regarding how much water to drink(or how much is enough useful water to drink!) and nutrition etc....
    It's helping me plan my gel/fuel strategies for next weekend!

    I'm sure if I keep reading, I'll pick up a few more hints....


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    #65
    pistol_75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭pistol_75


    Just reviving this thread as I think a lot of people have used their training plans in the last 3 years and I know a lot did for recent Spring marathons.

    Which plan did you follow?

    What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?

    Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?

    How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?

    Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?

    Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?

    In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?

    Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?


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    #66
    nerraw1111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭nerraw1111


    Which plan did you follow?

    Up to 55 miles - 18 week schedule (started at 14 weeks to go)

    What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?

    Found it manageable. Was in pretty good shape at the end of it and felt pretty good during the race. The race went ridiculously well in hindsight.

    Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?

    Followed as laid out. Missed the odd session/week including most of taper (injured/niggles)

    How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?

    First proper plan I followed.

    Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?

    Yes.

    Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?

    Yeah, I got the result I trained for.

    In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?

    More race pace sessions. Sometimes it felt like I had gone weeks without running a single km of race pace. Created a bit of doubt. That said, perhaps that's the reason why the plan works.

    Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?

    Will use it again. Switched to Daniel's for the shorter stuff till then.


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    #67
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Just reviving this thread as I think a lot of people have used their training plans in the last 3 years and I know a lot did for recent Spring marathons.

    Which plan did you follow?
    55 MPW plan for Dublin 2010 and the 70 MPW plan for Berlin 2011

    What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?
    Coming from HH Novice 1 the plan worked great for Dublin, not so well for Berlin

    Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?
    Followed it by the book for DCM 2010, until I had a groin niggle so replaced some of the VO2 max sessions at the end. Made some modifications for the 70mpw plan for berlin

    How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?
    Found it great first time around, coming from HH, the increased mileage had great results across all distances

    Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?
    Yes, found the HR stuff invaluable. Made me consider what was actually an 'easy' pace and what was 'hard' effort. Still use these lessons today

    Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?
    Yes for DCM 2010, actually should have actually went quicker (backed off).
    No for Berlin- my target was just out of range at the time and I blew up spectacularly!!

    In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?
    More MP miles in place of the VO2 max sessions over last 6-7 weeks

    Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?
    Yes, while it is a good 'transition' plan I don't think it is for me. I don't like doing MP miles in Long runs and this is the only place P&D has them. I don't understand the emphasis on Vo2max session over the final mesocycle of the plan, this is surely when we should be getting specific and doing lots of MP based sessions midweek. In short, I think there should be MP miles midweek especially in the last few months.


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    #68
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    I am going to do the 70 mpw schedule but do tempo runs from 7 miles to 11 miles. Improve endurance etc.


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    #69
    theboyblunder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭theboyblunder


    Which plan did you follow?

    55-70 18 wk. But jumped in at 13 weeks to go. Kinsa following before that.

    What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?

    Its great. I had consistently underperformed in previous marathon races compared to my times at 10 and 13.1. I felt the plan made me stronger. For the first time in a marathon I ran a negative split. Downside is the monotony. This isnt a problem for me (easily amused) but some find it too boring...

    Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?

    No changes. I tend to overthink things, so I delibrately just followed the book. Takes the hassle out of training. It might not be the most modern plan, but lots of people aiming for lots of different time goals have done well on it...which is reassuring as you head out for that midweek 15 mile run :)

    From 13 weeks out I followed it exactly except for one session I bailed on on a hot day.

    How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?

    I followed daniels A twice before. Its also a good plan - big improvements over 10 and 13.1but as I said, I underperformed in the race. Frankly I think I was overcooked on it come race day. I have suspected for a while that the same has happened to one or two others on here, but some have also ran great races on it.
    Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?

    No way. That would suck all the fun out of it
    Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?

    On P&D yes. I think I actually ran a little faster than mcmillan suggested beforehand which was a first for me

    In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?

    I wouldnt have bought a house in 2003 :)

    Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?

    Nope. I like the simplicity and I think it addresses my particular weaknesses


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    #70
    jfh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭jfh


    for anyone who has followed the 55 - 70 miles per week 18 week plan.
    do you think there was enough long runs?

    the longest run is 22. is that long enough?

    there's only 2 runs over 20 miles, admit there's 2 runs of 20 miles.


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    #71
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Just reviving this thread as I think a lot of people have used their training plans in the last 3 years and I know a lot did for recent Spring marathons.

    Which plan did you follow?
    55 MPW plan for Dublin 2010 and the 70 MPW plan for Berlin 2011

    What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?
    Coming from HH Novice 1 the plan worked great for Dublin, not so well for Berlin

    Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?
    Followed it by the book for DCM 2010, until I had a groin niggle so replaced some of the VO2 max sessions at the end. Made some modifications for the 70mpw plan for berlin

    How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?
    Found it great first time around, coming from HH, the increased mileage had great results across all distances

    Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?
    Yes, found the HR stuff invaluable. Made me consider what was actually an 'easy' pace and what was 'hard' effort. Still use these lessons today

    Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?
    Yes for DCM 2010, actually should have actually went quicker (backed off).
    No for Berlin- my target was just out of range at the time and I blew up spectacularly!!

    In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?
    More MP miles in place of the VO2 max sessions over last 6-7 weeks

    Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?
    Yes, while it is a good 'transition' plan I don't think it is for me. I don't like doing MP miles in Long runs and this is the only place P&D has them. I don't understand the emphasis on Vo2max session over the final mesocycle of the plan, this is surely when we should be getting specific and doing lots of MP based sessions midweek. In short, I think there should be MP miles midweek especially in the last few months.


    Very good points there. I will do a vo2 session every 2nd week with club
    as get more out of it. Planning some midweek mp miles too and maybe mix a bit if jd sessions.

    Kinda what I did for first half of this year and knocked 3 mins off 10k time to 42:06.


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    #72
    kit3
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭kit3


    Probably a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway :rolleyes: - Is it possible to follow the P&D programmes without a garmin or a heart rate monitor ?

    Any suggestions for other programmes that are a step up from the HH ones - bit afraid of P&D for some reason but need something more than HH.


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    #73
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    kit3 wrote: »
    Probably a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway :rolleyes: - Is it possible to follow the P&D programmes without a garmin or a heart rate monitor ?

    Any suggestions for other programmes that are a step up from the HH ones - bit afraid of P&D for some reason but need something more than HH.
    Do you have access to a track and stop-watch? If so, I'd say definitely yes. You'll get awful bored of that track though!


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    #74
    nerraw1111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭nerraw1111


    I think you could manage without a HR or Garmin.

    You will need a stop watch.

    You just need to measure out your runs on mapmyrun beforehand and have an idea of what pace you should be running. So for example, 2 laps of the local park is a mile, you need to run each lap at x pace.

    Initially, it might take a bit of work but once you find some suitable routes, it should be easy enough.


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    #75
    Claude Harmon
    Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭Claude Harmon


    How do people find this plan compared to the Hanson's Marathon Method ( http://www.amazon.com/Hansons-Marathon-Method-Renegade-Fastest/dp/1934030856 ). I followed the P&D last year in Dublin for a 3.28 (down from 4:08) and thought it was good, but fancied trying another one.
    Hanson proposes a longest run of 16 Miles, which worries me slightly!


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    #76
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    Claude Harmon wrote: »
    How do people find this plan compared to the Hanson's Marathon Method ( http://www.amazon.com/Hansons-Marathon-Method-Renegade-Fastest/dp/1934030856 ). I followed the P&D last year in Dublin for a 3.28 (down from 4:08) and thought it was good, but fancied trying another one.
    Hanson proposes a longest run of 16 Miles, which worries me slightly!

    Bought the Hanson book recently plan itself actually looks solid and there is a good bit of thought put into the reason for the shorter long run. I would recommend it for those who are in perhaps there second or third year of running.

    The idea behind it is that you are more consistent through the week because you are not taking as long to recover from the an overly long, long run.

    As I said I think for someone who hasn't alread built up a good base over the course of a few years I think it will stand to you physically more (having said that there is a trade off with the mental benefits of a long run)


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    #77
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Don't know Ecoli.. Personally, I think there's absolutely nothing to beat the 20-22 mile long run with 10-12 miles at marathon pace. Yes, a lot of it is the mental benefits, but running long and fast is what you're looking to do in the marathon, so I think you've got to put the two together in training.

    It's not until I pushed the long run out to 22-23 miles that I got consistent endurance in the last 6 miles of the marathon. Maxing out at 16 would be a risk, IMHO.


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    #78
    tomred1N
    Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tomred1N


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    Don't know Ecoli.. Personally, I think there's absolutely nothing to beat the 20-22 mile long run with 10-12 miles at marathon pace. Yes, a lot of it is the mental benefits, but running long and fast is what you're looking to do in the marathon, so I think you've got to put the two together in training.

    It's not until I pushed the long run out to 22-23 miles that I got consistent endurance in the last 6 miles of the marathon. Maxing out at 16 would be a risk, IMHO.


    Another book for the beach next month, will just have to take the cover off it so the wife thinks I'm reading a novel !

    In spite of loving 20 milers on a sunday morning I may in the interests of research have to consider this one :)


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    #79
    statss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭statss


    guys,

    good info in this thread, I'm starting the 55/week plan, and have been reading people's logs (blockic, outforarun, scriba)...if you also logged while doing the plan can you link me to your log so I can have a gander! thanks


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    #80
    beeduybe
    Registered Users Posts: 731 ✭✭✭beeduybe


    statss wrote: »
    guys,

    good info in this thread, I'm starting the 55/week plan, and have been reading people's logs (blockic, outforarun, scriba)...if you also logged while doing the plan can you link me to your log so I can have a gander! thanks

    I followed the 18 week 55 mile plan for DCM last year which was my 2nd marathon and ended up with a 49 minute PB of 3:21 which I wouldn't have dreamt of before starting the plan. From what I've read of your log I think it will be a great plan for you to follow.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056448239&page=13


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    #81
    tomred1N
    Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tomred1N


    statss wrote: »
    guys,

    good info in this thread, I'm starting the 55/week plan, and have been reading people's logs (blockic, outforarun, scriba)...if you also logged while doing the plan can you link me to your log so I can have a gander! thanks

    Hey statss

    I followed 55 mile 18 week plan for my second marathon CCM13 this year. Got a 32 minute PB on DCM 12 . Had only been running around 8 months before I started this plan so was not sure if I had the stamina to follow it .the progressive nature of it made me ready for the longer harder runs and the LT runs I found of most benefit in monitoring improvements. I think I completed 95 % of the plan as laid out on the schedule so that obviously helps as well. i.e no injury etc

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056879543&page=7


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    #82
    statss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭statss


    thanks both, thats exactly what I was after, good reading other people's day to day efforts with the plan.


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    #83
    sub3wannabe
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭sub3wannabe


    Could anyone who has followed a program from this book maybe explain more about the VO2Max workouts?

    If the workout is 14km w 5x600m @ 5k race pace, how should i run the remaining km's and at which stage of the session. Thanks in advance!


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    #84
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    sub3wannabe wrote: »
    Could anyone who has followed a program from this book maybe explain more about the VO2Max workouts?

    If the workout is 14km w 5x600m @ 5k race pace, how should i run the remaining km's and at which stage of the session. Thanks in advance!

    No need to overthink it. The overall distance covered isn't critical to this session. The main thing is that you do the reps at the right pace/effort levels. The rest of the distance consists of the warm up, the active rest in between reps and the warm down.

    A sample would be: warm-up for 7km, do the session including keeping moving during the rest period, c.4.5 - 5km and then warm down for the last bit (2 - 2.5km).


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    #85
    sub3wannabe
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭sub3wannabe


    Clearlier wrote: »
    No need to overthink it. The overall distance covered isn't critical to this session. The main thing is that you do the reps at the right pace/effort levels. The rest of the distance consists of the warm up, the active rest in between reps and the warm down.

    A sample would be: warm-up for 7km, do the session including keeping moving during the rest period, c.4.5 - 5km and then warm down for the last bit (2 - 2.5km).


    Cheers mate. Will just top and tail the session with 20% race pace k's!


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    #86
    thewolf_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭thewolf_ie


    Clearlier wrote: »
    No need to overthink it. The overall distance covered isn't critical to this session. The main thing is that you do the reps at the right pace/effort levels. The rest of the distance consists of the warm up, the active rest in between reps and the warm down.

    A sample would be: warm-up for 7km, do the session including keeping moving during the rest period, c.4.5 - 5km and then warm down for the last bit (2 - 2.5km).

    I would have ran 14k then the intervals???


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    #87
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    thewolf_ie wrote: »
    I would have ran 14k then the intervals???
    No, that's not right, Luke.


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    #88
    sub3wannabe
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭sub3wannabe


    thewolf_ie wrote: »
    I would have ran 14k then the intervals???

    Ha, sure that would mean you'd end up running 19k! A beneficial mistake!

    I did as Clearwater suggested and things went smoothly.

    btw, while im here, could anyone explain to me the difference between Lactate Threshold and Vo2 max? Are they not pretty much the same thing?


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    #89
    blockic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭blockic


    sub3wannabe wrote: »
    btw, while im here, could anyone explain to me the difference between Lactate Threshold and Vo2 max? Are they not pretty much the same thing?

    I'm terrible at explaining the science behind them so I'll let others do that but to put it simply:

    Lactate Threshold pace is a pace roughly between 10mile and Half Marathon pace.

    V02 Max is where you should run the intervals at between 3km-5km pace.

    So they are significantly different.


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    #90
    thewolf_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭thewolf_ie


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    No, that's not right, Luke.

    Yoda I will never beat the dark runners my beet root is weak.


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    #91
    thewolf_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭thewolf_ie


    sub3wannabe wrote: »
    Ha, sure that would mean you'd end up running 19k! A beneficial mistake!

    I did as Clearwater suggested and things went smoothly.

    btw, while im here, could anyone explain to me the difference between Lactate Threshold and Vo2 max? Are they not pretty much the same thing?

    Lactate Threshold is the point you reach when Lactate enters the blood stream at a rate to fast for you body to deal with. This is when you reach an effort level usually around your best effort half. The results are muscle not functioning at best. You train at this level to increase/push out the point at which this occurs this is how your times improve.

    More in dept here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold


    Vo2 Max

    This mean how much oxygen your body can effiently delivery to your muscles at hi intensity. The better it is the fast you are. Correct me on this if I'm wrong.

    More indept here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max


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