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P&D Advanced marathoning

«13

Comments

  • #2
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,409 ✭✭✭plodder


    That's the one. It's the second edition, which came out early last year, I think.


  • #3
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Try ThebookDepository, which is free postage.
    Are you hoping to do a Steven Way?! He followed the P&D <70 mpw program, for a 2:35 finish.


  • #4
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Try ThebookDepository, which is free postage.
    Are you hoping to do a Steven Way?! He followed the P&D <70 mpw program, for a 2:35 finish.

    Nah :) Just wanted to read the book, just curious as to what a 2:3x marathon entails in terms of training. Very easy to get into 2:5x shape but that extra 20 minutes?


  • #5
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    I have a feeling that you will find the 'science of running' sections of the book a little under-whelming, based on your knowledge of the subject, but hopefully the programs will be useful. There is no correlation between the programs and pace./target times. i.e. there isn't any mention of... To achieve 2:3x you need to follow yyyy. The programs are all presented, and you take your pick.

    I followed the 12 week 55mpw program for a 2:55, but reckon I'll have to step up to a higher mileage program to get 2:4x. I think I'll stick with the 12 weeks, as I'm hoping to carry my endurance (long runs) through to the start of the next program.


  • #6
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Are you hoping to do a Steven Way?! He followed the P&D <70 mpw program, for a 2:35 finish.

    How did he do that if he ran 130 miles per week? :confused:


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  • #7
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    TFBubendorfer wrote: »
    How did he do that if he ran 130 miles per week? :confused:
    Didn't the 130mpw come afterwards (e.g. for one of his more agressive targets?)


  • #8
    seanynova
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭seanynova


    Are training pace guidlines given in the programmes in the P&D book?

    When I started training, I didnt have any idea of how to pace myself, I'm using McMillian pace calc now for training, but not a McMillian training programme.


  • #9
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    seanynova wrote: »
    Are training pace guidlines given in the programmes in the P&D book?
    When I started training, I didnt have any idea of how to pace myself, I'm using McMillian pace calc now for training, but not a McMillian training programme.
    Well, IIRC (somebody else may have read the book more recently) for the various types of training, they recommend specific heart rate and heart rate reserve ranges. In addition, specific sessions are aimed at specific race paces, e.g.:
    LT/Tempo sessions will be at 15K to 1/2 marathon pace (different for everybody)
    VO2max sessions (intervals) are done at 5K pace (again, up to the individual to determine this pace).

    There are some appendices in the back of the book that describe your 5K and LT pace, based on recent specific race times (again IIRC).

    I have a spreadsheet, where I just input my target marathon time, and it calculates the various paces and HR ranges, based on P&T values.


  • #10
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    I followed the 12 week 55mpw program for a 2:55, but reckon I'll have to step up to a higher mileage program to get 2:4x. I think I'll stick with the 12 weeks, as I'm hoping to carry my endurance (long runs) through to the start of the next program.

    Each additional 20mpw increase above 60mpw is worth 5-10min off the marathon time. Below 60mpw an increase of 10mpw would have the same effect. Not much scientific backup for this but seems to hold reasonably true. Hard to know is it really the mileage increase or is it as a result of in general the runner being more serious about their running i.e conscious effort of increased weekly mileage probably means they are in general relooking at their training and making it more optimum.


  • #11
    toomuchdetail
    Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭toomuchdetail


    Silly question but is this book as titled "advanced Marathoning" for guys (advanced runnners)with lots of miles and experience under their belt and who want to improve or has it got advanced training plans and advice that a prospective 3:50-4:05 marathon runner might find usefull?
    Should I be looking at a P+D book on marathoning without advanced in the title !


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  • #12
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    toomuchdetail wrote: »
    Silly question but is this book as titled "advanced Marathoning" for guys (advanced runnners)with lots of miles and experience under their belt and who want to improve or has it got advanced training plans and advice that a prospective 3:50-4:05 marathon runner might find usefull?
    Should I be looking at a P+D book on marathoning without advanced in the title !

    As an inexperienced runner I used the first edition of that book to go from 4:06 to 3:28, so it definitely works for that pace range.


  • #13
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Gringo78 wrote: »
    Each additional 20mpw increase above 60mpw is worth 5-10min off the marathon time. Below 60mpw an increase of 10mpw would have the same effect. Not much scientific backup for this but seems to hold reasonably true. Hard to know is it really the mileage increase or is it as a result of in general the runner being more serious about their running i.e conscious effort of increased weekly mileage probably means they are in general relooking at their training and making it more optimum.
    Indeed it does sound very unscientific to me! I can't see how running additional miles can equate to time savings, when it really depends on how those additional miles are run. i.e. if they are run badly (dead miles) than it could be counter-productive, and marathon times would slow, or how one can stick to exactly the same program, and still improve ones PB by 5 minutes. but I suppose as a general rule of thumb, it may have some value (just not to me!).


  • #14
    SharkTale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭SharkTale


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Well, IIRC (somebody else may have read the book more recently) for the various types of training, they recommend specific heart rate and heart rate reserve ranges. In addition, specific sessions are aimed at specific race paces, e.g.:
    LT/Tempo sessions will be at 15K to 1/2 marathon pace (different for everybody)
    VO2max sessions (intervals) are done at 5K pace (again, up to the individual to determine this pace).

    There are some appendices in the back of the book that describe your 5K and LT pace, based on recent specific race times (again IIRC).

    I have a spreadsheet, where I just input my target marathon time, and it calculates the various paces and HR ranges, based on P&T values.

    Hi Krusty,

    Would you mind sharing the spread sheet. I have been using all different sites to gauge LSR pace, Tempo pace, LT pace ect.

    Thanks in advance


  • #15
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Well, IIRC (somebody else may have read the book more recently) for the various types of training, they recommend specific heart rate and heart rate reserve ranges. In addition, specific sessions are aimed at specific race paces, e.g.:
    LT/Tempo sessions will be at 15K to 1/2 marathon pace (different for everybody)
    VO2max sessions (intervals) are done at 5K pace (again, up to the individual to determine this pace).

    There are some appendices in the back of the book that describe your 5K and LT pace, based on recent specific race times (again IIRC).

    I have a spreadsheet, where I just input my target marathon time, and it calculates the various paces and HR ranges, based on P&T values.

    Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
    VO2 max at 5km pace
    ???????

    Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't :)


  • #16
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,409 ✭✭✭plodder


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Well, IIRC (somebody else may have read the book more recently) for the various types of training, they recommend specific heart rate and heart rate reserve ranges. In addition, specific sessions are aimed at specific race paces, e.g.:
    LT/Tempo sessions will be at 15K to 1/2 marathon pace (different for everybody)
    VO2max sessions (intervals) are done at 5K pace (again, up to the individual to determine this pace).

    There are some appendices in the back of the book that describe your 5K and LT pace, based on recent specific race times (again IIRC).

    I have a spreadsheet, where I just input my target marathon time, and it calculates the various paces and HR ranges, based on P&T values.

    And most long runs are recommended at 10% - 20% below PMP, with others partly/mostly at PMP. You can then check these against the expected heart rate (reserve) they talk about, to see whether you're really on target or not.

    I haven't started the program yet, but that's what I hope to do, and am experimenting a bit with the workouts at the moment.

    I'd love to see some stats on marathon times vs. weekly mileage though. The ranges (of mileage) for each time would be very interesting. Has anyone ever come across anything like this?


  • #17
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    tunney wrote: »
    Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
    VO2 max at 5km pace
    ???????

    Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't :)
    That's why I reckon the book may not be for you. I don't think you'll get much from the programs, beyond 'run x miles on Tuesday, run y intervals @5K pace on Wedensday'. I reckon your next post on the subject will be to let us all know what a load of horse-shoot it is. :)

    If you're targeting 2:3x I reckon your best bet is the club coaching approach, but if you can't fit that in, at least the book will give you a structure/frame-work.


  • #18
    christeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭christeb


    tunney wrote: »
    Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
    VO2 max at 5km pace
    ???????

    Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't :)

    I find the book quite light actually. I've got a scientific background and it doesn't satisfy that "side" of me, doesn't go into as much detail as I might like.

    It's been said before, but there is a helluva lot to be said for tergat in here, although his "plans" if you can call them that are more unproven. Tunney - if you want my copy I'll be happy to give / swap it (if you haven't ordered already). Can meet in the CC


  • #19
    kennyb3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,724 ✭✭✭kennyb3


    tunney wrote: »
    Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
    VO2 max at 5km pace
    ???????

    Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't :)
    If someone was interested in learning the science behind the correct paces etc, how would they be best going about it? could you recommend a decent book ?

    would you feel lab testing is required to get accurate ranges?


  • #20
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    SharkTale wrote: »
    Hi Krusty,

    Would you mind sharing the spread sheet. I have been using all different sites to gauge LSR pace, Tempo pace, LT pace ect.

    Thanks in advance
    It's very simple I'm afraid. I posted it previously in this thread, where you will also find more debate on traning by HR than you will ever need! You will still need to work out your 5K and 15K/half-mara race paces (though I must confess to using Mcmillan's equivalent of my target marathon pace, which is a big no-no in everyone's book (because using McMillan to determine your training paces is bad :rolleyes:, and because you should train based on current race pace, rather than desired race pace).


  • #21
    SharkTale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭SharkTale


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    It's very simple I'm afraid. I posted it previously in this thread, where you will also find more debate on traning by HR than you will ever need! You will still need to work out your 5K and 15K/half-mara race paces (though I must confess to using Mcmillan's equivalent of my target marathon pace, which is a big no-no in everyone's book (because using McMillan to determine your training paces is bad :rolleyes:, and because you should train based on current race pace, rather than desired race pace).

    Thanks Krusty,
    Very good will imput data and see where I am or am not?:eek:


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  • #22
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    SharkTale wrote: »
    Thanks Krusty,
    Very good will imput data and see where I am or am not?:eek:
    The spreadsheet does nothing except tell you what P&Ds recommended training HR zones are, based on your own heart rate, and also recommends long run and recovery paces based on P&D tables. Nothing more. In fact, it's an older version of the spreadsheet, so won't even calculate you planned race pace. The table at the bottom is a copy and paste from McMillan (and isn't auto-updating either. Crappy, I know).


  • #23
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    christeb wrote: »
    I find the book quite light actually. I've got a scientific background and it doesn't satisfy that "side" of me, doesn't go into as much detail as I might like.

    It's been said before, but there is a helluva lot to be said for tergat in here, although his "plans" if you can call them that are more unproven. Tunney - if you want my copy I'll be happy to give / swap it (if you haven't ordered already). Can meet in the CC

    Cheers but I ordered it this morning :( Hopefully not another one for my collection of sh!te books


  • #24
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    That's why I reckon the book may not be for you. I don't think you'll get much from the programs, beyond 'run x miles on Tuesday, run y intervals @5K pace on Wedensday'. I reckon your next post on the subject will be to let us all know what a load of horse-shoot it is. :)

    Ah right, I had thought it would go a little more in the the thinking behind sessions and programmes so you could structure your training accordingly. had assumed the "advanced" bit meant it would be less of a collection of programmes and more of a holistic approach to it. Oh well.....


  • #25
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    plodder wrote: »
    I'd love to see some stats on marathon times vs. weekly mileage though. The ranges (of mileage) for each time would be very interesting. Has anyone ever come across anything like this?

    I saw a study before. As expected, there is really no correlation to times i.e you'll find guys doing 40mpw running 2:50 and guys doing 90mpw struggling to break 3:30.

    I think what is clear though - if you do 60mpw, first thing to do is see are you training optimum, a club coach will possibly get more bang for the 60miles than you're presently getting. Then add miles - add them smartly, stay injury free and you will run faster.

    Krusty, when I say incresae the mileage by 20mpw, I mean by adding the right type of miles i.e having a proper 90mpw program rather than adding in a few miles here and there to a 70mpw program.

    Are there >100mpw programs in the Advanced Marathoning book?


  • #26
    shels4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    tunney wrote: »
    Ah right, I had thought it would go a little more in the the thinking behind sessions and programmes so you could structure your training accordingly. had assumed the "advanced" bit meant it would be less of a collection of programmes and more of a holistic approach to it. Oh well.....

    I know a couple of 2:3X marathon runners and most of them do not follow these plans, Thedo take elements of of them but also are coached.

    I think you know enough yourself to take some elements from the plan and adapt your training for your 2:3X marathon this autumn ?


  • #27
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Yeah, I reckoned you meant that. I just don't think it's possible to prescribe a general formula for the exact reasons you listed above. You can have a flick through the Advanced Marathoning book here. If you click on chapter 11, it'll show you the 85+ mpw program, which seems to cap at around 107 mpw (and starts on 100mpw!). Maybe you should have looked at this before buying the book Tunney? :)


  • #28
    shels4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    Gringo78 wrote: »
    I saw a study before. As expected, there is really no correlation to times i.e you'll find guys doing 40mpw running 2:50 and guys doing 90mpw struggling to break 3:30.

    I think what is clear though - if you do 60mpw, first thing to do is see are you training optimum, a club coach will possibly get more bang for the 60miles than you're presently getting. Then add miles - add them smartly, stay injury free and you will run faster.

    Krusty, when I say incresae the mileage by 20mpw, I mean by adding the right type of miles i.e having a proper 90mpw program rather than adding in a few miles here and there to a 70mpw program.

    Are there >100mpw programs in the Advanced Marathoning book?

    you can go for 70 to 90 easy with just a couple of doumbe days, If you look at what the 150m mile guys do there are lots and lots of easy miles, Check out the interview fagan did last year,i'll see can dig up the link(but this was 130+ mile weeks)


  • #29
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Yeah, I reckoned you meant that. I just don't think it's possible to prescribe a general formula for the exact reasons you listed above. You can have a flick through the Advanced Marathoning book here. If you click on chapter 11, it'll show you the 85+ mpw program, which seems to cap at around 107 mpw (and starts on 100mpw!). Maybe you should have looked at this before buying the book Tunney? :)

    Yes I should have looked but didn't :)

    Not looking for an exact formula just ideas :)

    Completely for completely academic reasons!


  • #30
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    shels4ever wrote: »
    I know a couple of 2:3X marathon runners and most of them do not follow these plans, Thedo take elements of of them but also are coached.

    I think you know enough yourself to take some elements from the plan and adapt your training for your 2:3X marathon this autumn ?

    This autumn - I wish, don't have time to get into shape for it, have aload of things on (work and personal) over the summer which means I couldn't commit to proper training (and lifestyle) but no harm in being prepared for another year!


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  • #31
    ss43
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 384 ✭✭ss43


    tunney wrote: »
    Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
    VO2 max at 5km pace
    ???????

    Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't :)

    LT and 1/2 marathon pace are close to the same if you're really good. LT is generally estimated as the pace one can hold for an hour at max. effort.

    Trained people can run at their VO2 Max to around 12 mins (if they're really good) can't they so not too far off 5k pace if you're elite. 5k would be the closest race to Vo2 Max.

    Maybe that's where the Advanced comes in.


  • #32
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    tunney wrote: »
    Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
    VO2 max at 5km pace
    ???????

    Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't :)

    I think they are LT and VO2 max workouts.You can still stress these systems at these paces which are more suited to marathon training than 3k race pace and 10mile race pace.


  • #33
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    ss43 wrote: »
    LT and 1/2 marathon pace are close to the same if you're really good. LT is generally estimated as the pace one can hold for an hour at max. effort.

    Trained people can run at their VO2 Max to around 12 mins (if they're really good) can't they so not too far off 5k pace if you're elite. 5k would be the closest race to Vo2 Max.

    Maybe that's where the Advanced comes in.

    I beg to differ, rather they use LT in a very wooly fashion.

    Generally the "what you can hold for an hour" is referred to as functional threshold and has little corellation to LT1, LT2 or OBLA.

    I'll wait and read it but I'd imagine I'll still side with Noakes :)


  • #34
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    T runner wrote: »
    I think they are LT and VO2 max workouts.You can still stress these systems at these paces which are more suited to marathon training than 3k race pace and 10mile race pace.

    Ahhhhhh that makes alot of sense.
    Alot more sense.

    I'll shut up now until I read it.


  • #35
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Krusty_Clown wrote:
    LT/Tempo sessions will be at 15K to 1/2 marathon pace
    VO2max sessions (intervals) are done at 5K pace
    I should have said 'workouts' instead of sessions. That would have made so much more sense. :)


  • #36
    mithril
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭mithril


    A few comments on the thread:

    1. As I understand it, there is a major difference between P&D and what Tergat has told us, in that P&D recommends intense interval sessions in isolation late in the marathon cycle as a mechanism to peak just before the race while Tergat recommends that intervals should only be run during a medium length run and should be also be longer than P&D recommends. This makes the training more specific to the demands of the event. Also Tergat recommends a speed training meta-cycle before a marathon session begins rather than within it.
    From what I have read elsewhere, Tergat's approach reflects later research into sports science and is more authoritative than P&D in this regard.

    2. I read somewhere that a rule of thumb for most runners is that performance improves linearly in the marathon up to 70 miles a week training and then you hit diminishing returns rapidly after that level. Like all such rules though, the threshold will be different for each person.

    3. I believe any off the shelf training program will only work up until 2:50 - 99% of runners will run slower than that and no book would be commercial which targets the remainder. A 10 mile run is something completely different to a 4 hour marathon runner than someone capable of 2:45 and will produce a different adaption in response to executing it. The Daniels running formula, which I have read but not used, gives very specific training intensities based on recent race times and makes more sense to me as a general guide. For the remaining 1%, either individual coaching or carry out VO2 & LT testing at one of the colleges and build a training program around this might be better options.


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  • #37
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    IMO there is a bit of a hierarchy of running books. For your first marathon and probably up to about 3:30 you'll be fine with someone like Hal Higdon. Basic, no nonsense plans that aren't going to cause injury.

    Once you want to move beyond that then that is where P&D come in. The training schedules are (again IMO) some of teh best generic schedules. They are well structured and proven and a huge number of people have used them to good effect. The science in the book is enough to give you a basic grounding and familiarity with the terms and it's a good book to dip into but I would buy it for teh plans alone, tbh.

    Once you go beyond that it's very hard to find anything better than Noakes "Lore of running", gives you enough to go away and create schedules and gives a comprehensive grounding in teh science behind the training.


  • #38
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    mithril wrote: »
    A few comments on the thread:

    1. As I understand it, there is a major difference between P&D and what Tergat has told us, in that P&D recommends intense interval sessions in isolation late in the marathon cycle as a mechanism to peak just before the race while Tergat recommends that intervals should only be run during a medium length run and should be also be longer than P&D recommends. This makes the training more specific to the demands of the event. Also Tergat recommends a speed training meta-cycle before a marathon session begins rather than within it.
    From what I have read elsewhere, Tergat's approach reflects later research into sports science and is more authoritative than P&D in this regard.

    Any links to research, papers or books on this?


  • #39
    aero2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭aero2k


    tunney wrote: »
    Any links to research, papers or books on this?
    I know tergat referenced Renato Canova in one of his posts - maybe the name means something to you?


  • #40
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    aero2k wrote: »
    I know tergat referenced Renato Canova in one of his posts - maybe the name means something to you?

    Ah reverse periodisation..... never tried it. Some of the IM pros swear by it.


  • #41
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    tunney wrote: »
    Ah reverse periodisation..... never tried it. Some of the IM pros swear by it.

    It seems to make a lot of sense, build up the engine and then get it to run more efficiently at that level, all about energy management. I'm hoping it makes sense anyway because I've dropped all intervals & LT runs 5 weeks ago and have just been doing LSR's, PMP runs & easy miles.


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  • #42
    ronanmac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭ronanmac


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    ... because you should train based on current race pace, rather than desired race pace).

    I've always wondered about this. My training plan recommends training at a pace based on current race pace. I tend to go for a pace that is a bit quicker, however, as I can't see how I'm going to get any faster if I'm training at current race pace, rather than aspirational race pace :confused:


  • #43
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,409 ✭✭✭plodder


    ronanmac wrote: »
    I've always wondered about this. My training plan recommends training at a pace based on current race pace. I tend to go for a pace that is a bit quicker, however, as I can't see how I'm going to get any faster if I'm training at current race pace, rather than aspirational race pace :confused:
    I wondered about that too. Maybe, it depends on the level of improvement you're looking at. eg, if you're looking to go from 4:00 time to 3:30, then to have a realistic chance of succeeding you'd want to be training closer to the target pace (?) But, if you're trying to go from 3:00 to 2:50, then maybe that wouldn't be true.

    That's just a hunch of mine, so I don't know if it's true. But, I do believe that a lot of generic advice that you hear is more applicable to faster runners than slower ones.


  • #44
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    ronanmac wrote: »
    I've always wondered about this. My training plan recommends training at a pace based on current race pace. I tend to go for a pace that is a bit quicker, however, as I can't see how I'm going to get any faster if I'm training at current race pace, rather than aspirational race pace :confused:
    This is for workouts. So training at current 5K pace is a lot faster than your target marathon pace. This is true of your half-marathon pace too (assuming that you have run one recently).

    For other sessions you train at planned marathon pace, or at planned pace plus an off-set.


  • #45
    shels4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    ronanmac wrote: »
    I've always wondered about this. My training plan recommends training at a pace based on current race pace. I tend to go for a pace that is a bit quicker, however, as I can't see how I'm going to get any faster if I'm training at current race pace, rather than aspirational race pace :confused:

    @ current race pace you are dong these workout during a full week training, he reaso they are at this pace is to make you acustom to running at this speed. The way you stress your body allow it to recover and then adapt to this pace. In propper format this will then allow you to race faster... :)


  • #46
    Dave_
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭Dave_


    Hey guys,

    Was going to start a new thread on this but this seems like a good place to go. Want to move up to train for an October Marathon. Have been running on/off for the last year and have upped the regularity of the training since February. I'm currently comfortable doing 20 miles per week and my long run has increased to 8 miles (attempting between 8 and 10 today).

    My question links back to P&D as i would like to attempt their most basic marathon schedule. As far as I have read, this requires 30+ miles from week one. I would like to know how you guys would recommend preparing myself for this type of mileage.The way I see it is that I have between 23 and 25 weeks before an early October marathon (I live in the States so thinking Hartford Marathon or Hudson River Marathon).That gives me ~6 weeks to get myself from 20ish miles to 30ish miles in a safe manner without the risk of injuring myself before I get going.

    My typical week for the last month or two has been:
    1 x interval session
    2 x 3-5 mile at comfortable pace
    1 x long run (8 miles max so far)
    sometimes 1 x spin class

    Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Dave


  • #47
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    It's a tough plan for a beginner. Your current LSR distance is just an easy run in the middle of the week in a P&D program. You would really need to up your long runs (which will also help with your overall weekly mileage). The 12 week 55mpw program I followed recently started with the following (in the first week):

    Tuesday: 8 Miles with 10x100m strides
    Thursday: 9 Miles Aerobic
    Saturday: 10k race (not part of the program - was probably 6 Miles easy)
    Sunday: 13 Miles, with 8 Miles @PMP

    So just in terms of comfort levels, you should be in a position to run the first week of training, by the time you get to the first week of the plan (e.g. 35 miles per week, with 6-8 miles at planned marathon pace). That's quite a sizeable gap from where you are right now. Assuming that you are planning an 18 week marathon program, that really doesn't give you a lot of time to build up to the basic P&D program. I really don't know you're background so it's all guesswork on my part. Would you consider following a less advanced program first time around?


  • #48
    village runner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,656 ✭✭✭village runner


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    It's a tough plan for a beginner. Your current LSR distance is just an easy run in the middle of the week in a P&D program. You would really need to up your long runs (which will also help with your overall weekly mileage). The 12 week 55mpw program I followed recently started with the following (in the first week):

    Tuesday: 8 Miles with 10x100m strides
    Thursday: 9 Miles Aerobic
    Saturday: 10k race (not part of the program - was probably 6 Miles easy)
    Sunday: 13 Miles, with 8 Miles @PMP

    So just in terms of comfort levels, you should be in a position to run the first week of training, by the time you get to the first week of the plan (e.g. 35 miles per week, with 6-8 miles at planned marathon pace). That's quite a sizeable gap from where you are right now. Assuming that you are planning an 18 week marathon program, that really doesn't give you a lot of time to build up to the basic P&D program. I really don't know you're background so it's all guesswork on my part. Would you consider following a less advanced program first time around?
    Krusty would you recommend P & D or is Daniels better ???
    I have bought the two books but I havent read them yet..........
    I have never followed a program so was to give it a shot for Berlin. With 22 weeka I have plenty of time to think about it.
    Any others could give me their feedback ??


  • #49
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    village runner wrote: »
    Krusty would you recommend P & D or is Daniels better ???
    I have bought the two books but I havent read them yet..........
    I have never followed a program so was to give it a shot for Berlin. With 22 weeka I have plenty of time to think about it.
    Any others could give me their feedback ??

    P&D all the way - I just don't "get" Daniels plans and the proof of P&D is in teh results people get


  • #50
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,534 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    village runner wrote: »
    Krusty would you recommend P & D or is Daniels better ???
    I have bought the two books but I havent read them yet..........
    I have never followed a program so was to give it a shot for Berlin. With 22 weeka I have plenty of time to think about it.
    Any others could give me their feedback ??
    Hi VR, I have no experience of Daniels. For someone with your experience (already comfortably running sub3), perhaps a hybrid P&D / Tergat plan might give you best bang for your buck. e.g. follow the structure of the P&D 70 mile plan, but augment specific sessions with Tergat advice/workouts.


  • #51
    tunguska
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    village runner wrote: »
    Krusty would you recommend P & D or is Daniels better ???
    I have bought the two books but I havent read them yet..........
    I have never followed a program so was to give it a shot for Berlin. With 22 weeka I have plenty of time to think about it.
    Any others could give me their feedback ??


    Im with Daniels VR. I've read both books and Daniels just suits me better. Maybe it comes down to individual training philosophies, whether one approach suits one person and not another. I have a feeling you're a Daniels man VR. His Elite marathon program is a monster.


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