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Primary school college course and atheism

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Comments

  • #102
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland. Educate together and some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denominational,where no one religion is favoured over another.

    Alive-O is the Catholic religion syllabus for primary, Learn together is the Educate together syllabus.

    There are, they are just completely private and receive no state funding. Drumnigh Montessori Primary, for example, is non-denom.

    http://drumnighmontessori.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=9


  • #103
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    removed because question was answered by webpage


  • #104
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    Amtmann wrote: »
    I got it too, and also a response from the minister's office, which will reply to me in detail in due course.

    I didn't get one from the minister yet.


  • #105
    #15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    Really, like-minded stakeholders need to come together and demand some action on this. Parents, teachers and would-be patrons should form some sort of alliance or lobby group to rid the system of this nonsense.


  • #106
    Minowaman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Minowaman


    I just did a week of teacher observation in my old primary school. The religion classes are disgusting. It should be illegal to teach that Alive-o sh!t alongside history, maths, etc.
    Also, the class were reading about horses in English class and how they evolved, and the teacher told them that "evolution is just a theory... it might be right or it might be wrong." Admittedly he probably just knew nothing about science. It's a CBS and they get some kind of funding from the Bishop so I suppose that's the main problem.


  • #107
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Minowaman wrote: »
    Also, the class were reading about horses in English class and how they evolved, and the teacher told them that "evolution is just a theory... it might be right or it might be wrong." Admittedly he probably just knew nothing about science. It's a CBS and they get some kind of funding from the Bishop so I suppose that's the main problem.

    He doesn't seem to know too much about his own religion either as for the most part the Catholic church accepts that evolution is most likely factual but that it happened how it did because that's how God wanted it to.


  • #108
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    Minowaman wrote: »
    I just did a week of teacher observation in my old primary school. The religion classes are disgusting. It should be illegal to teach that Alive-o sh!t alongside history, maths, etc.
    Also, the class were reading about horses in English class and how they evolved, and the teacher told them that "evolution is just a theory... it might be right or it might be wrong." Admittedly he probably just knew nothing about science. It's a CBS and they get some kind of funding from the Bishop so I suppose that's the main problem.

    I read the Alive-O teachers book, it is nothing short from a manual in how to indoctrinate children. It was the main reason to sent my son to an ET school.


  • #109
    #15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    Amtmann wrote: »

    I have long suspected that many primary school teachers tend to be cut from a very similar attitudinal cloth. It's unlikely that many atheist or agnostic young people would want to do a job in which it's a norm to prepare children for two or three religious rituals each year.

    I would say your suspicion may not be wholly warranted.

    There are many atheist teachers who cannot ''come out'' as Boards of Management can legally discriminate against teachers who undermine the ethos of the school.

    A teacher who prepares students for the sacraments may be going through the motions. I know a few who work in catholic schools but resent the situation they find themselves in.


    An interesting case came before the Equality Tribunal last year, and the teacher actually won.
    The Equality Tribunal has awarded more than €12,000 to a primary school teacher who was discriminated against because she was not a Catholic.

    The tribunal found that Knocktemple National School in Virginia, Co Cavan, discriminated against the female teacher when she applied for a job at the school in 2007.

    Michelle McKeever is a member of the Church of Ireland.

    She applied for a permanent job at Knocktemple National School, which is Catholic, in May 2007.

    Shortly after, she was contacted by the school principal and the chairperson of the school and offered a permanent post.

    But after a phone call in which Ms McKeever was questioned about holding the Catholic Religion Certificate, that offer was withdrawn.

    The Equality Tribunal has dismissed two explanations given by the school as to why this happened. The explanations were based on breaches of formal procedures.

    Michelle McKeever contended that her religion had become a factor in the appointment procedure.

    The Equality Tribunal has agreed with her, finding that not only was Ms McKeever's religion discussed, but that it also influenced the school's board of management in withdrawing the offer that had been made.

    The primary teachers' union, the INTO, has welcomed the result.

    It is the first time the union has taken a case of this kind on behalf of a member on the grounds of religion.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1116/mckeeverm.html

    However, the actual legislation is typically vague and seems to allow discrimination. The Equality Tribunal cannot force the legislation to be changed, however.

    It would be great if someone was to take a case to the European courts and force the hand of the government.


  • #110
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Minowaman wrote: »
    Also, the class were reading about horses in English class and how they evolved, and the teacher told them that "evolution is just a theory... it might be right or it might be wrong."

    After witnessing the academic and educational standard of over twenty burgeoning primary teachers in the past four years, this does not surprise me in the least.
    #15 wrote: »
    I would say your suspicion may not be wholly warranted.

    There are many atheist teachers who cannot ''come out'' as Boards of Management can legally discriminate against teachers who undermine the ethos of the school.

    Right, but it would not surprise me if there were many more atheist people who would like to be primary teachers, but who feel forced to do something else because they cannot bear the thought of 'going through the motions'.

    Any of the young teachers I know (and I know lots) generally would prefer if religion were kept out of the classroom; but at the end of the day, they don't see very much wrong with indoctrinating young minds with Christian mythology. I can only speak from experience though, and I accept that what I've written is anecdotal.


  • #111
    #15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    Recent surveys

    INTO:
    A recent survey carried out by INTO, shows that 67 percent of employed teachers teach religion willingly while 24 percent were uncomfortable with teaching it. Furthermore, the survey saw 34 percent of teachers agreed with a State takeover of schools and another 47 percent said the Catholic Church should renounce its control over a number of its schools.

    This is kind of interesting, as it shows that even among those who willingly teach religion, there is a desire for the RCC to remove itself from the situation.

    It would also be interesting to see the attitudes of different age cohorts.

    I'm not sure if this is a representative sample or not, though.

    IPPN:
    7 out of 10 parents (72%) want primary schools to be managed by the state, with equal opportunity afforded to all religions, according to a RedC poll commissioned by the Irish Primary Principals' Network.

    This independent survey further reveals that 6 out 10 parents (57%) would prefer some of the 2½ hours per week currently spent on religion, to be given to other subject areas, in particular, to physical and health education.

    Parents and principals hold some common views but differ in their opinions on other matters:
    "Both Principals (2 out of 3) and Parents (7 out of 10) want schools to be under the authority of the state with all religions given equal opportunity" said Sean Cottrell, National Director of IPPN.
    Parents want the school and the class teacher to be responsible for the teaching of religion and faith formation within the school day; however Principals say that there is an overall decline in the level of interest and meaningful support coming from both parents and clergy in relation to preparation for religious ceremonies and events, with many parents just turning up on the day. Also, Principals report that there is a decline in the willingness and enthusiasm amongst teachers to undertake this work of preparing children for sacraments and other religious ceremonies.



    Summary of Main findings:

    Over 750 Principals responded representing 23% of all primary schools
    88% of schools who responded are under Catholic patronage with the remaining participants from Church of Ireland, Educate Together, An Foras Pátrúnachta, Multidenominational and others.
    76% say that preparation for sacraments is currently done almost entirely by the school with parents attending on the day
    Nearly one-quarter (23%) say that the enthusiasm, willingness, competency and suitability of teachers to undertake faith formation and religious instruction is decreasing.
    Half (50%) say that the involvement of parents is decreasing
    40% say the involvement of clergy is decreasing.
    Almost 9 out of 10 (87%) say that the preparation for sacraments and other religious ceremonies takes some or a lot more additional time from other curriculum areas. (note: This refers mainly to 2nd and 6th classes and seasonally throughout the year in other classes)
    Principals are evenly divided in their views as to where and when religious instruction and faith formation should take place. Some see it as an integral part of the school day as at present and others say it should be separate from the primary school completely or offered as an option at the end of the school day.
    The proposed new VEC model of multi-faith schools where the school is responsible for religious instruction and faith formation for each faith group is considered difficult or impossible to implement by 80%

    The current set-up is a farce.

    A significant number of teachers seem to be in favour of a state takeover of education.
    A majority of parents and principals express similar sentiments.

    Also, the decline in Mass attendance and the reported decreasing involvement by parents in sacramental prep means that the problem is becoming self-perpetuating.

    Parents are less involved, but seem to go along with the whole charade because it is the ''done thing''.
    Teachers report on its intrusion into curriculum time, but go along with it because they think parents expect it.
    Principals work with the BoM, and have to uphold the ethos of the school, even if they prefer otherwise.

    It really seems like all three groups are just waiting for someone to grasp the nettle and sort out the issue once and for all.

    Everyone wins IMO:

    - Teachers and parents can drop the charade of being upstanding catholics.
    - Principals can get on with running modern, inclusive schools.
    - Hardcore catholics can have their own private schools where their rituals and beliefs are not treated shabbily by disinterested parents, students and teachers.

    Who loses here?
    I'm not even sure the RCC loses in this instance; they might even have a smaller but more dedicated community of believers.
    I guess it depends on the perspective of the church - they seem to value quantity of believers at this point.


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  • #112
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I doubt they've ever valued quality in that regard. Numbers is what brings money and power.


  • #113
    #15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    Amtmann wrote: »
    Right, but it would not surprise me if there were many more atheist people who would like to be primary teachers, but who feel forced to do something else because they cannot bear the thought of 'going through the motions'.

    True. That is probably a big factor in some people's minds.

    Another benefit of reforming teacher education and the school system is that it would discourage some people from becoming teachers, i.e. those teachers who you referenced earlier.

    Any of the young teachers I know (and I know lots) generally would prefer if religion were kept out of the classroom; but at the end of the day, they don't see very much wrong with indoctrinating young minds with Christian mythology. I can only speak from experience though, and I accept that what I've written is anecdotal.

    Yeah, my own experience is anecdotal too. It's been quite mixed - I know staunch atheists and staunch catholics within the profession.

    Like I said, reform of teacher ed. would hopefully introduce some balance into the population.


  • #114
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    The more I think about it the more I think court action should be taken if possible. This is taught as fact while it is inaccurate historically and factually. Therefore it is made up solely to make people without religion look bad.

    This is beyond doubt the promotion of hatred upon the non religious. And when you read the law it is up to them to prove it is not.

    I can see it no other way. This is not just ignorance or even uneducated this is pure lying to portrait the non religious as murders and holocaust causers in a very organised manner.

    They ensure that next generation carry this hatred and prejudged views by teaching teachers.

    I therefore come to the conclusion that it is not immature, childish or over the top. This is exactly what this law is made for.

    I am appalled, disappointed and angry that in Ireland in 2012 a state qualification can hold such a contents.


  • #115
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,985 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    At present all the teacher-training colleges apart from the online Hibernia College are organised along religious lines.
    http://www.gotocollege.ie/Is_there_a_place_for_God_in_the_Irish_classroom.html


  • #116
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    darealtulip wrote: »
    The more I think about it the more I think court action should be taken if possible.

    Lets look at how feasible that might be. So, taking a specific alleged statement from the notes....
    What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives ..
    First off, the statement is obviously incorrect. What these regimes had in common was totalitarianism, not religion. Fascists were usually associated with the RCC. Humanists have generally been the pacifists in times of conflict. Stalin may have been atheist as well as communist, but no credible historian would associate any of these regimes with "atheist humanism" or claim that any of them stemmed from it.

    Secondly, they are linking "latter-day exponents" of atheist humanism with the atrocities by saying "it doesn't bother them". This is most certainly going to incite any young trainee teachers who are not completely au fait with the history and politics of these events to a dislike of "latter-day exponents" of atheist humanism, perhaps a hatred and a belief that they are "bad" or "evil" people. Later they will pass this bias or dislike on to their pupils in the classroom.

    One possible defence that Hibernia could use would be that they are referring to events of the past only, but that seems untenable given they specifically mention "latter-day exponents". The other defence that they are only "stating the facts" can be easily disproved.

    Now, suppose I read the Old Testament and saw the part about the Israelites killing the entire civilian population of Sodom. And the bit in the New Testament where the Jewish authorities want Jesus killed. So I decide to put the statement "What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that Judaism produced some of the worst horrors history has ever witnessed" into a contemporary teacher training manual. That would seem unnecessary for teacher training and simply an incitement to hatred.


  • #117
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    "At present all the teacher-training colleges apart from the online Hibernia College are organised along religious lines. "

    :confused: It's NOT?


  • #118
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    As I already said, I found Mary I. over 20 years ago more forward thinking than the stuff Hibernia seem to be doing.

    Older teachers may also be glad to see religion taken from schools, it's not just the preserve of the young ones!


  • #119
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    recedite wrote: »
    Lets look at how feasible that might be. So, taking a specific alleged statement from the notes....

    First off, the statement is obviously incorrect. What these regimes had in common was totalitarianism, not religion. Fascists were usually associated with the RCC. Humanists have generally been the pacifists in times of conflict. Stalin may have been atheist as well as communist, but no credible historian would associate any of these regimes with "atheist humanism" or claim that any of them stemmed from it.

    Secondly, they are linking "latter-day exponents" of atheist humanism with the atrocities by saying "it doesn't bother them". This is most certainly going to incite any young trainee teachers who are not completely au fait with the history and politics of these events to a dislike of "latter-day exponents" of atheist humanism, perhaps a hatred and a belief that they are "bad" or "evil" people. Later they will pass this bias or dislike on to their pupils in the classroom.

    One possible defence that Hibernia could use would be that they are referring to events of the past only, but that seems untenable given they specifically mention "latter-day exponents". The other defence that they are only "stating the facts" can be easily disproved.

    Now, suppose I read the Old Testament and saw the part about the Israelites killing the entire civilian population of Sodom. And the bit in the New Testament where the Jewish authorities want Jesus killed. So I decide to put the statement "What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that Judaism produced some of the worst horrors history has ever witnessed" into a contemporary teacher training manual. That would seem unnecessary for teacher training and simply an incitement to hatred.

    Exactly, is there anyone with a law degree here?


  • #120
    number10a
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    So, the exam is done and dusted. I'm very happy with my result (well, as happy as one can be for such an exam, but it does count to the final overall result, so every mark counts). But I have a niggling feeling some last minute cutting and tailoring was done to the exam since the reaction to it from Boards over the previous days.

    The exam is designed in such a way that every student gets a random combination of 40 questions from a large pool of questions. I didn't get anything that could be described as any way controversial at all. Nothing worth taking a screen grab of in the slightest.

    The exam was crazy, yes (to be expected regardless). But controversial, no. Now, this could be complete coincidence and another student could have gotten the golden haul of hateful, bile-ridden questions, but I have a feeling that people's reactions on here are having some effect within the upper echelons of the college. We shall have to wait and see.


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  • #121
    quietriot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭quietriot


    Just dispatched the following email.

    To: minister@education.gov.ie; tes@education.gov.ie; academicaffairs@hiberniacollege.net
    Cc: hnews@independent.ie; newsdesk@irishtimes.com; news@examiner.ie news@thejournal.ie; tcmtext@tcm.ie
    Title: Higher Diploma in Arts (Primary Ed.) Teaching Religious Hatred and Intolerance.

    Minister Quinn, Hibernia College Dublin Management,
    I am writing today due to my concern over an article and the supporting evidence that I read on Boards.ie and Broadsheet.ie recently. An issue arose whereby a student of Hibernia College Dublin in the Higher Diploma in Arts (Primary Ed. ) course told of the questions facing them and their fellow students in an upcoming "religion" exam, as part of the aforementioned higher diploma course.

    As part of a "mock" exam for this "religion" module, the students were faced with the following questions:

    Question 12 of 12
    Moral Theology
    'Atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed'. The answers given were 'True' and 'False'. The supporting documentation provided indicated that the student is expected to answer 'True' to said question.

    Question 13 of 20
    Moral Theology
    What statement is false?
    'Hinduism is a positive force for change in society.'
    'Atheism has had, historically speaking, a negative effect on society.'
    'Islam is based on the identity of religion and society.'
    The student had to choose one of the above three.

    The supporting documentation was quoted by another student, the relevant excerpt follows.
    "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history"

    I would appreciate an explanation as to how the college in question feel it appropriate to force such grotesque, hatred filled lies onto the curriculum and consequently down the throats and into the minds of those who go on to teach the country's children. This "information" is factually incorrect and contains a clear religious bias from an institution claiming to have none. It is utterly abhorrent that this is what these teachers-to-be are being told to teach our children.

    The "information" has been discussed (with the inclusion of students of the course in questions) and debunked on Boards.ie and Broadsheet.ie at the following web links:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056553324
    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/02/20/literally-unbelievable/
    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/02/22/ash-wednesday/

    I am writing for an explanation as to how this material in question is in current circulation and indeed, on curriculum, along with official assurances that the complaint will be dealt with and actions taken appropriately. It is absolutely unacceptable that such utter hatred and intolerance of another's religious preferences be taught to our children or those who teach our children, be it Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Atheism or any other.

    Regards,

    Thoughts?


  • #122
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    darealtulip wrote: »
    Exactly, is there anyone with a law degree here?
    There's at least one person, perhaps two. Will wait for them to intervene.


  • #123
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    I've never complained 'formally' in my life but just fired off an email to Mr Quinn and Hibernia. I must be getting old because I'm completely appalled that such questions/material are given to prospective teachers of our youth.


  • #124
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,684 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The Hibernia College H. Dip. in Arts in Primary Education is professionally accredited by the Teaching Council of Ireland. This is important, because without that accreditation the diploma wouldn’t qualify people to work as primary teachers in Ireland, or elsewhere in the EU.

    When the TCI system was set up existing “recognized” teaching qualifications were “grandfathered in”, and deemed to be accredited, pending a review by the TCI. I do not know whether this is the basis of the current “accredited” status of the Hibernia College course.

    Starting in 2009, the Council began a programme of rolling reviews of the accredited courses. Judging from the Teaching Council website, the Hibernia College accreditation has yet to be reviewed, which means that a review must be impending in the foreseeable future - though I don’t know when. Still, it might provide an opportunity for anyone concerned about this to put some pressure on Hibernia College.

    The focus of TCI accreditation is on the question of whether the programme in question prepares a student for entry into the teaching profession. This means, at the risk of oversimplifying, that they are mainly interested in whether the course is effective to impart teaching skills. It’s more focused on whether students are taught how to teach than whether they are taught what to teach. Objections to Hibernia College’s accreditation need to be framed with this in mind. So the issue is not whether, in the RE module, students are being taught things which are factually wrong, or are being taught as certainties things which are debatable and/or controversial, but whether they are being taught things which will not equip them to function as effective RE teachers in (pluralist, diverse, modern) Ireland. It shouldn’t be too difficult to frame representations in these terms.

    Plus, they do expect that students will be equipped with knowledge of the subject matter and the related methodology of the primary school curriculum/syllabus. So there might be some merit in comparing the substantive content and tone of the Hibernia College RE module with the Dept of Education primary school syllabus, and pointing to any contrasts.

    Quite separately from professional accreditation from the TCI, the Hibernian College diploma receives academic validation from HETAC. HETAC can allow academic institutions to validate their own courses, but Hibernia College is not on the list of institutions allowed to do this. I don’t know whether validation by HETAC is periodically reviewed, but it might be worth looking into. There’s a striking contrast between the RE syllabus on the Hibernia College website and the course notes and sample exam questions mentioned in this thread. It must surely be a matter of concern to HETAC if Hibernia College are not teaching to their own syllabus.


  • #125
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    "Quite separately from professional accreditation from the TCI, the Hibernian College diploma receives academic validation from HETAC. HETAC can allow academic institutions to validate their own courses, but Hibernia College is not on the list of institutions allowed to do this. I don’t know whether validation by HETAC is periodically reviewed, but it might be worth looking into. There’s a striking contrast between the RE syllabus on the Hibernia College website and the course notes and sample exam questions mentioned in this thread. It must surely be a matter of concern to HETAC if Hibernia College are not teaching to their own syllabus."

    I am on my way to find contact details for HETAC


  • #126
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    Contact Us
    HETAC, 26 - 27 Denzille Lane, Dublin 2, Ireland.
    t. +353 (0)1 631 45 67
    f. +353 (0)1 631 45 77
    e: info@hetac.ie

    Mail sent to them also. I requested clarification if this is common content under the HETAC


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  • #127
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    darealtulip wrote: »
    Exactly, is there anyone with a law degree here?
    I have one (Dades LL.B)

    Though my legal skills are rustier than a Fiat Ritmo left sitting 20 years on a Donegal beach.


  • #128
    darealtulip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    Dades wrote: »
    I have one (Dades LL.B)

    Though my legal skills are rustier than a Fiat Ritmo left sitting 20 years on a Donegal beach.

    Cool, could we have your expert opinion; do you think there would be a case in this?


  • #129
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Here's a copy of the letter I sent; feel free to use as a basis for your own letters:
    Dear Minister Quinn,

    Note: I CC a copy of this email to the Academic Affairs dept of Hibernia College. I was hoping to await a reply to initial emails I have sent to that college, but since 2 days later I have not received any response, I decided to press ahead and mail you. If Hibernia College disagree with any of the following, they can reply and let me know.

    According to a student of the college posting on boards.ie (*), the following screenshots show sample exam questions from the Hibernia College H. Dip. for primary school teaching online exam. This qualification is a requirement to teach in all Irish schools.

    In the accompanying notes (again, if any of this is not true, Hibernia College can correct me), it says:
    "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history".

    The following screenshots show sample exam questions; the answer for the first is "true" - the course teaches as objective fact the idea that humanism is responsible for the worst horrors in history.

    <screenshot here>

    For the second screenshot, the answer is the first option; that is, again, it teaches as fact that both Hinduism _and_ atheism are negative forces.

    <screenshot here>

    I'm a humanist married to a Catholic, and appalled, angry and disgusted that the next generation of Irish teachers are being training to be mindless bigots. I, and I'm sure my wife, would feel the same if the course & exam questions were only negative towards Catholicism.

    I would like to know:
    • how Hibernia College produced this material which, rather than teaching about all religions, is almost comically biased against anything except Christianity
    • who was responsible for its creation
    • who who approved it in either HETAC or the Teaching Council of Ireland
    Is mise le meas,

    etc.

    (*) http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056553324

    P.


  • #130
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    number10a wrote: »
    I didn't get anything that could be described as any way controversial at all. Nothing worth taking a screen grab of in the slightest. The exam was crazy
    Interesting -- thanks for reporting back.

    Out of interest, were the questions phrased as though the religion was true? Or were they phrased just as simple questions about the religion?


  • #131
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,985 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Silver_525 wrote: »
    I'm doing that religion exam that the OP is referring to.
    Just found the part about atheism that the question referred to in my notes...it goes as follows "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history".

    So as you can see that wasn't some random question in the sample test, it's taken directly from the notes they give us...
    is that everything that's said about atheism in all of the course notes?


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  • #132
    gawker
    Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭gawker


    Haven't posted on this topic yet because it just breaks my heart to see how much religious people/ideas have become infused into our education system - it is there at every level. Anyway, with some inspiration from other great letters posted on this thread, here is my little piece:

    Minister Quinn, Hibernia College Dublin Management,

    Dear Minister Quinn,

    Note: I have CCed a copy of this email to the Academic Affairs Dept of Hibernia College for their consideration.

    According to a student of the college posting on boards.ie, a number of sample exam questions for teacher-in-training show a clear bias towards certain religious beliefs. Question 12 in the exam reads:

    "Athiest humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed."

    This statement invites the student to choose "true" or "false" with "true" being the correct answer. Not only is the statement historically inaccurate, but it is worrying that deeming such a statement to be true could be a requirement for somebody to become a teacher in Ireland.

    Question 12 in the exam reads:

    "Which statement is false?

    Hinduism is a positive force for change in society.
    Athiesm has had, historically speaking, a negative effect on society.
    Islam is based on the identity of religion and society.    "

    The answer that seems positive of Hinduism is wrong according to the requirements to pass the exam, wheras the statements knocking Islam and Athiesm are deemed correct. A further illustration of the ignorant and biased information potential teachers must "learn" is illustrated by this piece from the accompanying notes for the exam:

    "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history."

    I, frankly, don't know where to start with the above text. This e-mail is not appropriate for a debate on such subject anyway. However, I find it disgusting that somebody who wants to teach in this country must endure this level of bias against people who do not follow the Christian faith. Indeed, Hibernia College are the only teacher training college which was deemed not to be denominational - one can only imagine the level of bias those in other institutions experience.

    I would like to ask the following questions:
    (1) Are the instructions of Hibernia College on these topics in line with your departments wishes for teacher education and the content of such programs?
    (2) If the instructions of Hibernia College are not in line with your departments wishes, what can you do to bring their activities in line with quality expectations?
    (3) Are there any plans to prove a non-religious alternative to the current options when it comes to teacher education? The number of non-religious people is growing in this country and those people ought to be able to become teachers without having to agree with statements against people who are not Christian/Catholic.

    Thank you very much for your time,

    Etc Etc...


  • #133
    muppeteer
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭muppeteer


    expectationlost wrote: »
    is that everything that's said about atheism in all of the course notes?
    The content of the course notes will be the most important thing.
    Considering the screen grabs were only of a mock question and the actual exam didn't seem to have the same question the college may fob it off as not counting.

    I'm not sure how we could get access to the full course notes considering the students may not be able to post them here without copyright issues.


    OP, I hope this whole thread hasn't caught you off guard with all the emails flying around. I'd hate to think this could come back on you in any adverse way from the college.


  • #134
    Annoyoboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭Annoyoboy


    My other half is a Hibernia graduate so I have a semi-interest in this thread.

    Hibernia students should note that by bringing your college into public disrepute you are effectively devaluing your own qualification which will mitigate against you when you are sat in front of a principal/board of management interviewing for a job. I'm sure the college has an internal complaints/feedback procedure for students which may be a more appropriate route to take rather than stirring up a fuss on a public forum.

    Just something to bear in mind.


  • #135
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Annoyoboy wrote: »
    Hibernia students should note that by bringing your college into public disrepute you are effectively devaluing your own qualification which will mitigate against you when you are sat in front of a principal/board of management interviewing for a job. I'm sure the college has an internal complaints/feedback procedure for students which may be a more appropriate route to take rather than stirring up a fuss on a public forum.
    Just something to bear in mind.

    That's an annoying way to try to intimidate someone into shutting up.

    BTW, it's not a private complaint by a student, it's a public complaint because this sort of thing is unacceptable from society's viewpoint.


  • #136
    gawker
    Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭gawker


    Annoyoboy wrote: »
    Hibernia students should note that by bringing your college into public disrepute ...

    I think Hibernia should note that teaching nonsense brings their college into public disrepute.

    And, in fairness, it's not as if any other teacher education college here can claim to be any different when it comes to religious issues.


  • #137
    number10a
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    robindch wrote: »
    Interesting -- thanks for reporting back.

    Out of interest, were the questions phrased as though the religion was true? Or were they phrased just as simple questions about the religion?

    A lot of questions were phrased as historical fact because that's what they essentially dealt with. e.g. What does 'Messiah' mean? What do Jews call the first five books of the Bible? How many books in the New Testament? etc. etc.

    There were other questions based around Catholic belief and dogma and they were written as if it was true. e.g. The Holy Spirit only comes during Confirmation. True/False. A receiver's grace increases every time they receive Holy Communion. True/False. These are all paraphrased, but effectively the content is the same. Even a qualifying statement at the start of such a statement like "Catholics believe that....." would make the whole thing infinitely better.
    muppeteer wrote: »
    The content of the course notes will be the most important thing.
    Considering the screen grabs were only of a mock question and the actual exam didn't seem to have the same question the college may fob it off as not counting.

    I cannot imagine the college being able to fob this off. What's been taught has been taught and this cannot be undone, regardless of the content of the real exam. All that I have shown from the mock exam is in black and white in the course notes.
    muppeteer wrote: »
    I'm not sure how we could get access to the full course notes considering the students may not be able to post them here without copyright issues.

    OP, I hope this whole thread hasn't caught you off guard with all the emails flying around. I'd hate to think this could come back on you in any adverse way from the college.

    I have thought about making the notes available on here, but copyright issues have stopped me. There's plenty fodder in there alright though.

    I have been caught off guard in the sense that I really ony came on here to rant and type some rage out of my system. Never thought I would get this kind of a reaction. But I'm delighted with it. People have reacted brilliantly to this. Hopefully it will bring about some change. I was thinking myself that with all those emails going to Minister Quinn, it has a personal interest for him as he is an atheist himself. I can't imagine he is too fond of a college branding his kind as the worst thing to ever happen to humanity.

    I'm not worried about reaction from the college. The last thing they will want on their hands is a persecuted whistleblower going public. You must remember that Hibernia College is a private enterprise that gets €9,000 from every student. Bad publicity is not on their wish list.


  • #138
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Sparks wrote: »
    That's an annoying way to try to intimidate someone into shutting up.

    BTW, it's not a private complaint by a student, it's a public complaint because this sort of thing is unacceptable from society's viewpoint.


    And graduates will be teaching in the PUBLIC primary system, which is totally dominated by faith schools. I can't think of a more public complaint to make than how teachers are required to teach this in public schools funded by the public, ie taxpayers.


  • #139
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Still, best to go for the source of the problem. It's a bit late to be complaining about a teacher's training once they're telling this crap to their pupils.


  • #140
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Email sent.


  • #141
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    muppeteer wrote: »
    I'm not sure how we could get access to the full course notes considering the students may not be able to post them here without copyright issues.
    Tricky one. Considering it could be, and we certainly would, construe the release as being in the public interest they probably would be able draw on whistleblower/protection of sources type legislation.
    Course there's always something to be said for just putting it on online anonymously, new account, upload file to google docs, hey presto.


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  • #142
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Nevore wrote: »
    Course there's always something to be said for just putting it on online anonymously, new account, upload file to google docs, hey presto.
    There is something to be said for it: that would be potentially illegal.
    Right? Right?


  • #143
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I got a reply from the minister
    Dear Ms Kylith

    Thank you for your recent email in relation to Hibernia College exam.

    The Graduate Diploma in Primary Education offered by Hibernia College has been recognised for the purpose of qualification as a primary teacher for almost 10 years. Hibernia College is a privately-owned institution providing a privately-run course, which is not funded by the Department. Both the content of the course and any related exams are a matter for the College in the first instance. As the Teaching Council is the statutory body empowered to review and professionally accredit such programmes of initial teacher education, the issue you raised has been brought to its attention.

    I hope this information is of assistance to you.





    Yours sincerely,



    ____________________

    Ronnie Ryan

    Private Secretary

    Looks to me like they're washing their hands of it because it's a private college.


  • #144
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kylith wrote: »
    Looks to me like they're washing their hands of it because it's a private college.
    More like a case of...

    mail_forward.gif

    To the Teaching Council.

    And then washing their hands.


  • #145
    muppeteer
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭muppeteer


    ^The teaching council are not really private though as they operate under the Teaching council Act so they can only wash so much before it just comes back on the Department of Education.


  • #146
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    number10a wrote: »
    A lot of questions were phrased as historical fact because that's what they essentially dealt with. e.g. What does 'Messiah' mean? What do Jews call the first five books of the Bible? How many books in the New Testament? etc. etc.

    There were other questions based around Catholic belief and dogma and they were written as if it was true. e.g. The Holy Spirit only comes during Confirmation. True/False. A receiver's grace increases every time they receive Holy Communion. True/False. These are all paraphrased, but effectively the content is the same. Even a qualifying statement at the start of such a statement like "Catholics believe that....." would make the whole thing infinitely better.

    This is what bothers me about teaching religion in school and how anyone can argue that it's not indoctrination.

    You're sitting a child down in a school environment, the same classroom where they are taught the facts about maths, science and geography.

    Then you teach them the 'facts' about religion, the holy spirit, the resurrection, and they are supposed to tell the difference? That these facts are 'different' and they are welcome to 'find their own way' when they get older? No, it's pure indoctrination, and it can't be called anything different.


  • #147
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I might write back and say that even though this is a private college it is training teacher for public schools. Is the DoE really happy with its teachers having this kind of grounding? Wouldn't the curriculum of a teacher training college have to fit in with the curriculum of public schools; e.g. there'd be no point in training the teachers in calculus if the primary they're going to only goes as far as long division.


  • #148
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Dades wrote: »
    More like a case of...

    mail_forward.gif

    To the Teaching Council.

    And then washing their hands.
    muppeteer wrote: »
    ^The teaching council are not really private though as they operate under the Teaching council Act so they can only wash so much before it just comes back on the Department of Education.

    dilbert-1.jpg


  • #149
    gawker
    Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭gawker


    kylith wrote: »
    I got a reply from the minister


    Looks to me like they're washing their hands of it because it's a private college.

    I got the exact same reply. Well, lets all chip in and start a teaching college that forces participants to state that "God is not real" and "Catholicism has been responsible for disgusting crimes and constitutes a rotten institution." I'm pretty sure the rules will be changed fairly quickly then... :rolleyes:


  • #150
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    I got a reply from the college itself. None of it answers any of the questions I originally had, just talking in generalities:
    Thank you for contacting Hibernia College with your concerns. Firstly, I would like to state that Hibernia College embraces an ethos and culture of inclusion and respect for diversity in all aspects of its work, and our student teachers and graduates teach in a wide range of schools; schools that include all faiths and other ethical programmes.



    In relation to the specific points currently being discussed on various online forums, it is important to note the following:



    · The multiple choice questions mentioned are part of a broader examination process which includes a written exam. In this written exam students are encouraged to discuss and debate the various points being examined. Students are not assessed on their acceptance of the course content, but rather their ability to discuss, debate and critique this material.

    · The content of all our courses is presented to students in a way that encourages debate, critical discussion and analysis. Students attend live online tutorials and onsite workshops and are expected to contribute to tutor led discussion forums. All aspects of the religious education content are open to critique and healthy debate and students are encouraged to express their views.

    · All our programmes are reviewed on an ongoing basis. This includes seeking the contribution of various relevant stakeholders. We are currently in the process of creating an advisory group representing the wide spectrum of belief systems in Ireland today to ensure that our course content continues to reflect the diversity of beliefs represented in our society. We look forward to taking advice from this board as with all our advisory boards.

    AFAIK, the exam questions are true/false yes/no answers for which you receive marks for the "right" answer, correct? In which case, how is "Students are not assessed on their acceptance of the course content" correct?

    P.


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  • #151
    muppeteer
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭muppeteer


    kylith wrote: »
    I might write back and say that even though this is a private college it is training teacher for public schools. Is the DoE really happy with its teachers having this kind of grounding? Wouldn't the curriculum of a teacher training college have to fit in with the curriculum of public schools; e.g. there'd be no point in training the teachers in calculus if the primary they're going to only goes as far as long division.
    I don't think there is any religious syllabus that the department can enforce though, but I could be wrong in that assumption. They may have guidelines of some sort but I'm unsure.

    If there isn't, then there would have to be some other regulation that prevents a teacher teaching things that are either factually untrue or that can be harmful to the child's education.
    Without those type of rules we could be snookered as far as finding a clear breach of protocol in the accreditation of the college.

    Otherwise we would just have to appeal to common sense that these views are unacceptable to teach to teachers and children. And appeals to common sense can be hit and miss in Ireland to say the least:)


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