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Over 1,200 licensed guns stolen in five years

245

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Rew wrote: »


    How many Garda staions have armouries? Sure evidence is kept in personal lockers, would it not be better to get evidence lockers ahead of storage for private firearms? Garda stations are not imune to breakins or Tiger style attacks. The difference is that instead of one gun you will get 50 or 100.
    If you can give us an example of a District HQ being attacked or broken into by criminals trying to steal firearms I would appreciate it. To be fair, I can't imagine an 'Assault on Precinct 13' incident happening in Tralee:pac:!


    If we carry that logic through then we should make a list of the bigest threats to life and start at the top. We will have gotten rid of cars, motorbikes, sall sporting equipment, domestic knives, the government (not implementing the cervical cancer vacine) long, long, long before we come to legal firearms.

    These things are a necessity in modern society. Guns are not imo.

    The Gardai haven't been updated on the changes. They were still teaching that nothing over a .22 was legal in Templemore up untill recently anyway.
    Do you have a link to back that statement up?


    It has crossed my mind. Safes with handguns are on 24h zones and the alarm panels generally have duress codes.
    But as Nog said, what if they get to you or your family? Alarms don't matter much then.


    Handguns are disposable items to criminals so why go to all that effort to steal 1 gun? I know they do it for cars but there is big money involved there and low punishment if caught.To a low level thug, I'd imagine stealing and selling guns would be quite profitable.

    I agree with whoever said there is no reason for anyone to have a gun in their possession all the time. If you use it in self defence, you may get attempted murder/murder/manslaughter so that rules out protection. Other than that I can't see why anyone should have access to a gun in their home. I believe storing them in a Garda Station would be a good idea. Sign in for your weapon when you take it out, and sign in again when you return it.

    For those arguing that cars, domestic knives etc are weapons...no they can be used as weapons but that is not their intended purpose. A firearm is a weapon, that is always used as a weapon. Even if it is an air gun/BB gun, they are still weapons imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭budda15c


    eroo wrote: »
    I agree with whoever said there is no reason for anyone to have a gun in their possession all the time. If you use it in self defence, you may get attempted murder/murder/manslaughter so that rules out protection. Other than that I can't see why anyone should have access to a gun in their home. I believe storing them in a Garda Station would be a good idea. Sign in for your weapon when you take it out, and sign in again when you return it.

    For those arguing that cars, domestic knives etc are weapons...no they can be used as weapons but that is not their intended purpose. A firearm is a weapon, that is always used as a weapon. Even if it is an air gun/BB gun, they are still weapons imo.


    I think the point Rew was trying to make regarding firearms being stolen from a Garda station is that if there were a large number of handguns, possibly a few dozen stored there, in one location, then it may may become tempting to a criminal gang to try and rob them.

    I doubt you will find an example of a Garda station being 'attacked', for want of a better word and having a large amount of handguns stolen, as at the moment privately licenced handguns are not stored in Garda stations.

    To be honest, I think saying that every firearm should be stored in a garda station and signed in and out, when needed is a bit OTT. As I understand it and I'm open to correction here the Gardai do not have anything near the resources to do something like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ScubaDave


    No - they are intended as sporting tool by which a person can compete in a precision sport such as target shooting! They are not intended for weapons!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭budda15c


    ScubaDave wrote: »
    No - they are intended as sporting tool by which a person can compete in a precision sport such as target shooting! They are not intended for weapons!

    +1

    something i missed:o


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    eroo wrote: »
    I agree with whoever said there is no reason for anyone to have a gun in their possession all the time. If you use it in self defence, you may get attempted murder/murder/manslaughter so that rules out protection. Other than that I can't see why anyone should have access to a gun in their home. I believe storing them in a Garda Station would be a good idea. Sign in for your weapon when you take it out, and sign in again when you return it.

    For those arguing that cars, domestic knives etc are weapons...no they can be used as weapons but that is not their intended purpose. A firearm is a weapon, that is always used as a weapon. Even if it is an air gun/BB gun, they are still weapons imo.

    Templemore dont put their lectures online and im sure the members here will back me up is saying that no HQ directives have been issued about the 2006 changes to licencing. Any recent phase can back me up.

    As I have said already self defence has never been a valid reason to get a licence. Although there was talk from the gov of chaning that a while back but thank god nothing came of it.

    Saying all guns are weapons just shows ignorance of the subject. Firearms are tool like any other as you say they can be used as weapons but that is not their necessarily intended purpose. There are some that are built to be weapons same can be said for cars and knives etc.

    It can be argued that we dont need alot of things in or possession all the time or even at but where is the line drawn? Shooting as sport has been around as long as guns have been. Our gov and every other gov funds it as a sport. Brian Cowen opened the Midlands Shooting range. We have quite a few world class shooters in Ireland.

    As I said earlier most Garda stations can't store evidence let alone 220,000 firearms.

    As we have seen 16 year olds can lay their hands on illeagle firearms, the street value of a pistol is less then the retail.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭CLADA


    Rew wrote: »
    Garda figures show 8 handguns were stolen in 2003 but there were no licences issued to private indvidules in 2003 so there's a bit of a question mark as to wher they came from.

    A Sig 9mm was stolen from a garda car on may day a couple of years ago and tuned up again later in a drugs operation.

    This did not happen. And for the record May day was 2004.
    Rew wrote: »
    A detective left a pistol in the toilets of the four courts and caused a security scare.

    It was in Dublin Castle at the flood tribunal in '96, there was no security scare as it was brought to the attention the uniformed garda on duty and recovered almost immediately.

    Rew wrote: »
    I often see briefcases on the back seats of unmarked cars (with no one in them). These are UZI sub machine guns in the standard issue case..

    God bless your eyesight, if its true that you often see these cases, are you telling us you can actually see the contents of the case?
    Are you sure it's not empty?
    Rew wrote: »
    I've heard rumours that quite a few pistols have been stolen from detectives houses as they sometimes keep them at home. Thats rumours though

    Yes, Thats rumours though.


    So now we have established the 8 handguns stolen in 2003 were not Garda weapons.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    CLADA wrote: »
    So now we have established the 8 handguns stolen in 2003 were not Garda weapons.

    LOL we didnt establish alot there. Im surprised the May Day one isnt true. I heard it was recovered after being stuck in the face of a plain clothers banner? I didnt mean to say that the 8 were those incidents just that everyone who has firearms in this state has lost or had them stolen at some stage.

    Anyway all stolen handgun figures are going to come uder the microsope now. If the Minister wants to throw them around we'll see what he's actually talking about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭CLADA


    Rew wrote: »
    LOL we didnt establish alot there. Im surprised the May Day one isnt true. I heard it was recovered after being stuck in the face of a plain clothers banner?

    You stated that the 8 handguns stolen in 2003 weren't licenced to private individuals and there is a bit of a question mark as to where they came from.

    You then went on to list rumours you heard and things you have often seen, giving the impression the 8 weapons were Garda issue.

    The incident you refer to where a weapon was pointed at a female Garda was during a drugs search in Clondalkin. A male fleeing the scene pointed a glock pistol at a female Sgt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    CLADA wrote: »
    It was in Dublin Castle at the flood tribunal in '96, there was no security scare as it was brought to the attention the uniformed garda on duty and recovered almost immediately

    It happens from time to time :o:eek:

    "Ok, got my grande skinny cappuccino with chocolate, got my large blueberry muffin, got my radio.....feel like I forgot something.......d'oh!"


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    CLADA wrote: »
    You then went on to list rumours you heard and things you have often seen, giving the impression the 8 weapons were Garda issue.

    Thats ok that is the impression that I was trying to give. The figures come form Pulse I belive so you should be able to say where those 8 came form.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭CLADA


    Right you are Ted, I'll leave you to it. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Rew, I'll be the first to put my hand up and say my ignorance on the subject of firearms is pretty high. Firearms/shooting is not my cup of tea at all. But your ignorance of the workings of AGS is quite high also(alas I am no expert either!!). You claim that Garda Stations wouldn't be capable of storing weapons; have you been in every Garda District HQ or every Garda armory? You also speak of incidents that were absolute rumour and hearsay. I'm not having a go at you, but if you are going to make a statement to aid your argument, use links etc to back yourself up. Otherwise we could all say things that are just rumours/hearsay.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Read back through my posts. Alot of what I said is not rumour at all and has been backed up, some is im happy to admit and have said in spots, CLADA has told me the May Day Sig isn't true I belived it was but ill take his word on that.

    You said Garda Stations in you last post and District HQs in your next. Theres a big difference (alot of stations dont have an armoury) but regardless lets consider that. 220,000 firearms in the district HQs? Not going to happen. The last time they took in guns the Army took most of them (and still have most of them) and off the top of my head that was alot less then 220k. Add to that ammunition and your talking large amounts of dedicate space and cost to the tax payer. 1800 pistols is a bit more doable but TheNog has already said they couldn't fit everything they got in the amnesty to their armoury. Ill have to dig out the numbers but it wasn't very well subcribed. Its been established in the press that secure storage for evidence isn't available in most cases. Im sure members here will tell you that its not uncommon for members to be sharing lockers for their personal items which is where surplus work related items end up.

    I think Ive establihed that a firearm being in Garda posession does not exclude it from theft or loss. Stations are not imune to breakins.

    Anyway storage by Gardai dosn't stop tiger style robberies targeting Gardai or the owners them self so at the end of it all were back to the same situation we were in when they were stored at home.

    Implemention of existing laws would cut the theft figure drastically. I wish that the same could be said for the drugs and guns that pouring into the country. That big shipment form Holland had HK MP5's with supressors to fit them and the minister is worried about the licenced guns?! There are way bigger issues out there then this but the minister wants to be seen to be taking guns off the streets. I have yet to see anyone say that these measures are going to have any effect on crime what so ever.

    I have never heard of anyone who had a licenced handgun stolen, im very interested to hear what the break down of the 27 since 2004 is.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    eroo wrote: »
    Rew, I'll be the first to put my hand up and say my ignorance on the subject of firearms is pretty high. Firearms/shooting is not my cup of tea at all. But your ignorance of the workings of AGS is quite high also(alas I am no expert either!!). You claim that Garda Stations wouldn't be capable of storing weapons; have you been in every Garda District HQ or every Garda armory? You also speak of incidents that were absolute rumour and hearsay. I'm not having a go at you, but if you are going to make a statement to aid your argument, use links etc to back yourself up. Otherwise we could all say things that are just rumours/hearsay.

    BTW as an RDF soldier you will be trained to kill with a firearm and tactics to aid that. Thats alot more then any target shooter or even hunter ever learns and the state will pay you to do it. You will shoot at human shaped tagets, if I did that on the range I would be thrown off it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Rew wrote: »
    How many Garda staions have armouries?

    Acually all District HQs have armories.
    Rew wrote: »
    Sure evidence is kept in personal lockers, would it not be better to get evidence lockers ahead of storage for private firearms?

    THat is a load if BS. We have secure evidence rooms.
    Rew wrote: »
    Garda stations are not imune to breakins or Tiger style attacks. The difference is that instead of one gun you will get 50 or 100.

    But it has never happened. It has happened where guns wer stolen from houses though.
    Rew wrote: »
    It has crossed my mind. Safes with handguns are on 24h zones and the alarm panels generally have duress codes.

    Ah Christ man will you ever wake up. Alarms, safes, duress codes are not worth a ****e against someone who is determined to take them. Do you really think if a man had a knife to your son's throat that you will enter a duress code. You will in your ****e!!!
    Rew wrote: »
    Reading some of your posts im assuming your a memeber? How many successfull breaksins have you been to where there was an alarm that was on and how many where there was a monitored alarm that was on?

    Quite a few actually. I am not going to get into how the criminals do it but don't believe for a second that they are stupid.
    Rew wrote: »
    The safes arn't impenetrable but they will slow anyone trying to force them open right down.

    Slow them down for what to happen? 2 unarmed guards to arrive? (provided of course they can find your house). Criminals now use methods to disable an alarm and give themselves plenty of time to tackle the safe or you or your family members.

    Rew wrote: »
    Templemore dont put their lectures online and im sure the members here will back me up is saying that no HQ directives have been issued about the 2006 changes to licencing. Any recent phase can back me up.

    That is actually incorrect.

    Rew wrote: »
    As I said earlier most Garda stations can't store evidence let alone 220,000 firearms.

    Again BS. YOu are making assumptions here on what little media evidence you have read and more worryingly what you have heard through rumours.

    Rew, reading through your posts there and anyone would think we were all for the ban!!! We are not but do you really think if the government would listen to the Sporting Fraternity when they could get easy PR by banning pistols? I think maybe not but why would ye take the chance. We are simply offering another alternative to a complete ban which you seem to be totally against. Why is it you are so determined to keep pistols in the homes where they are safe rather than in another even safer location? The mind boggles


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Rew wrote: »
    BTW as an RDF soldier you will be trained to kill with a firearm and tactics to aid that. Thats alot more then any target shooter or even hunter ever learns and the state will pay you to do it. You will shoot at human shaped tagets, if I did that on the range I would be thrown off it!

    And how is that relevant to privately owned firearms?

    I must sign for my weapon, and I must never ever let it out of my sight. If I do leave it out of my sight..:eek:.

    This same routine could be introduced to private gun owners with weapons being stored in Garda District HQ's. Why would you want to keep your weapon in your possession at all times if you only use it for sport specific training and/or hunting?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭budda15c


    eroo wrote: »
    And how is that relevant to privately owned firearms?

    I must sign for my weapon, and I must never ever let it out of my sight. If I do leave it out of my sight..:eek:.

    This same routine could be introduced to private gun owners with weapons being stored in Garda District HQ's. Why would you want to keep your weapon in your possession at all times if you only use it for sport specific training and/or hunting?


    Yes you sign your weapon out, as a member of the RDF, because thats what it is and thats what its role is, as a weapon, which you are being trained to use to take another life, if god forbid the situation should arise.

    People who own firearms for sporting and hunting purposes are using them for just, sports, not as a weapon.. When used for carrying out sporting rolls, it is a tool, its not being used as a weapon.

    And if people have paid to purchase a firearm it belongs to them, why shouldn't it be kept in their home, with all of the rest of their property, once they are responsible and take every possible precaution to ensure it is securely stored.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭budda15c


    TheNog wrote: »
    Acually all District HQs have armories.

    Fair enough all District HQ's have armouries, where I would assume they store Garda issue firearms, and temporarily store seized firearms. You might be able to answer the question; are these armouries capable of storing 220,000 firearms?, instead of maybe a couple of dozen Garda firearms and a few seized illegal firearms.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    sounds like ahern wants to start a should the public be better armed then a beat cop poll?

    do gardai here that same concern as ahern is always claiming to be only following the gardai's lead.

    gardai groups have agreed for now not arm themselves, so the next step is make sure that not only the crims are not better armed but neither are the public.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Im not anti-garda nad dont want to give that impression. In fact im very pro-garda and think they they need to be freed from bull**** jobs like paperwork (like signing licences every August) . I really dont think the resources would be there to store private firearms in stations. Even if they were I think that the man power used in taking them in and out, managing and protecting them would be a waste of resources and those resources would be better dealing with actual crime.

    On a selfish note going to my district HQ would be a nightmare for me as its not that close and on the opposite direction to the range which is already 1.5 hours away.

    In reference to lockers and armouries. Distict HQ's are well equiped, all stations are so well equiped and the issue of evidence has been covered in the press:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ombudsmans-station-raid-sparks-garda-row-1362606.html
    Mr O'Boyce said the force has a poor system of storing evidence and because there were no specific rooms to hold items pending a trial, gardai had to store them in their personal lockers.

    Michael O'Boyce is President of the GRA. I would hate to see space put over to storing guns if its in short supply already.

    The reality here is the case of someone with a knife to your kids throat isn't change by having the guns in the station becasue like you said you will do anything inculding going there and getting them. Same could be said if your the Sgt in the station and its your kid you will go and fill bag full of guns from the station.

    So we both agree nothing will stop a determined criminal but a determined criminal can get guns easier then all this and nothing we have talked about here changes that.

    On the other issue I really hope the training in Templemore has been updated with the new legislation but I know what I said to be true after the 2006 act. I think its a shame that the introduction to firearms was taken off the course down there. Hopefully when The Farm is up to full speed they will bring it back.

    We def agree on one thing the minister isn't going to listen to either of us.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    eroo wrote: »
    And how is that relevant to privately owned firearms?

    I must sign for my weapon, and I must never ever let it out of my sight. If I do leave it out of my sight..:eek:.

    This same routine could be introduced to private gun owners with weapons being stored in Garda District HQ's. Why would you want to keep your weapon in your possession at all times if you only use it for sport specific training and/or hunting?

    Farmers doing vermin control couldn't operate that way. Anyway the reference to the RDF was just a general point about sports shooters and the fact that thousands of people are trained to shoot to kill every year but the sports shooters making holes in paper scare people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Keith186


    I for one hope all handguns are taken away from their owners. Nothing against shooting as a sport and I think I'd like it myself but when they are stolen and get into the wrong hands bad things happen.

    How many people are licenced hand gun owners in this country?
    Only a couple of thousand probably. If none of these handguns were stolen then a couple of lives would be saved. For the sake of them not being able to have fun with a handgun it's not that big a deal to ban them.

    I know crims will always have ways of getting guns but you're reducing the prospect of that if they cannot steal it from somebody's house in the first place.

    FFS you can have a fecking gun and I can't buy a bottle of beer after 10pm to take home. It should be the other way around!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭budda15c


    Keith186 wrote: »
    I for one hope all handguns are taken away from their owners. Nothing against shooting as a sport and I think I'd like it myself but when they are stolen and get into the wrong hands bad things happen.

    How many people are licenced hand gun owners in this country?
    Only a couple of thousand probably. If none of these handguns were stolen then a couple of lives would be saved. For the sake of them not being able to have fun with a handgun it's not that big a deal to ban them.

    I know crims will always have ways of getting guns but you're reducing the prospect of that if they cannot steal it from somebody's house in the first place.

    FFS you can have a fecking gun and I can't buy a bottle of beer after 10pm to take home. It should be the other way around!

    Another law brought in to give the impression something drastic was being done to tackle anothr huge problem we have in Ireland at the moment.

    As i said in my first post, this argument has been thrashed out just about everywhere at this stage. At this point I think we're just all gonna keep bouncing back and forth and going nowhere. Everyone seems to be stuck to their opinion and i doubt anyone here is going to be swayed by the other sides argument.

    One thing I think we can agree on though is that a ban on legally held handguns will not have any major effect on gun crime in ireland. The proposed ban is simply an attempt to give the impression to the public that something major is being done to combat the problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Well this is going faster than I can keep up but having read the latest posts allow me to clear something up, Garda stations are not the subject of attacks. It probable has something to do with all the police wandering around the places.

    In fact now that I think of it, uniformed Gardai generally dont get mugged or pickpocketed either :rolleyes:

    A house alarm goes 'me maw me maw me maw' until eventualy YOU turn it off having found your house broken into and ransacked. Alternatively you get phone watch which means the alarm gets turned off by your unarmed and untrained neighbour 30 minutes after its been broken into and ransacked. Thats a great deterent.

    Its a hell of a lot easier, cheaper with less jail time or big time criminal connections for someone to break into a house and steal something like a gun than getting Mr international gun runner to fed ex you one from eastern europe. The arguement that they will break in for a car but not for a gun is plain laughable.

    All Garda HQ's have armouries, they have 24 hour Garda security and also armed officers. Hmmm, Garda station or your house, which is the easier target?

    Tiger kidnappings are not a big thing here, lets stop being dramatic for a moment. There hasnt even been 10 in the last 5 years compared to 1200 firearms being stolen. Theres been more women killed in domestics than theres been tiger kidnappings and theres sure as hell been more people shot dead using firearms.

    A car is designed and built as transport, a knife is designed and made to cut food, etc. A baseball bat, golf club etc are all made and designed for sporting purposes. Firearms were designed, invented and manufactured enmass for people to point at and kill other living things. The improvements in firearms has all been to achieve a better, more accurate kill.

    And if you compare the percentage of vehicles in this country X usage to firearms and usage, I think the firearms would prove more fatal but thats just my opinion.

    And Eroo has to hand back his gun, he doesnt get to take it home and keep in his personal dwellings with his family. Bit of a difference there


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭budda15c


    Well this is going faster than I can keep up but having read the latest posts allow me to clear something up, Garda stations are not the subject of attacks. It probable has something to do with all the police wandering around the places.

    In fact now that I think of it, uniformed Gardai generally dont get mugged or pickpocketed either :rolleyes:
    No,But they do get, assaulted, stabbed & murdered, which are all far worse so whats your point

    A house alarm goes 'me maw me maw me maw' until eventualy YOU turn it off having found your house broken into and ransacked. Alternatively you get phone watch which means the alarm gets turned off by your unarmed and untrained neighbour 30 minutes after its been broken into and ransacked. Thats a great deterent.

    Its a hell of a lot easier, cheaper with less jail time or big time criminal connections for someone to break into a house and steal something like a gun than getting Mr international gun runner to fed ex you one from eastern europe. The arguement that they will break in for a car but not for a gun is plain laughable.

    All Garda HQ's have armouries, they have 24 hour Garda security and also armed officers. Hmmm, Garda station or your house, which is the easier target?
    What exactly would you classify as an armoury. A mate of mine is serving in a District HQ and there 'Armoury' is a large gun safe, which with a bit of effort can be pushed around. It is about big enough to store all of their own firearms, but it ain't gonna fit all of the district's firearms in it. Wasn't someone just making the point earlier that safes could be broken into, well I guess its true for a Garda station aswell.

    I would think an armoury is a securely reinforced room, no..


    What about in a District HQ outside of a city. At say 4am, when there are very few officers in a station and maybe not even an armed officer in the station, whats to stop a gang walking into a station and putting a couple of guns in the SO's face, when they know they are guaranteed a large number of firearms. Or even around 2-2.30am, on a weekend night, when all officers are down town on public order.


    Tiger kidnappings are not a big thing here, lets stop being dramatic for a moment. There hasnt even been 10 in the last 5 years compared to 1200 firearms being stolen. Theres been more women killed in domestics than theres been tiger kidnappings and theres sure as hell been more people shot dead using firearms.

    A car is designed and built as transport, a knife is designed and made to cut food, etc. A baseball bat, golf club etc are all made and designed for sporting purposes. Firearms were designed, invented and manufactured enmass for people to point at and kill other living things. The improvements in firearms has all been to achieve a better, more accurate kill.

    And if you compare the percentage of vehicles in this country X usage to firearms and usage, I think the firearms would prove more fatal but thats just my opinion.
    You can't accurately compare the levels of gun usage or gun possession, as there are no figures for firearms which are illegally held.


    And Eroo has to hand back his gun, he doesnt get to take it home and keep in his personal dwellings with his family. Bit of a difference there

    Luckily he does, because thats a 5.56mm steyr with fully-auto capabilities, a bit overkill for anyone to have in their home, wouldn't you think. Your talking about not allowing anyone keep a firearm in their home, so you can't really compare this type of firearm to a bolt action rifle, a semi-auto rifle, a shotgun or even a handgun.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    A defacton ban on everything over .22 and all handguns was in place for over 30 years because of the troubles and the vartious terrorist groups still manged with relitive ease to create massive collections of weapons.

    A 16yr old laid his hands on a handgun. We have yet to hear how but im betting on it being an illeagle gun that was never legally owned here. Do you really belive its easier to steal one?

    The Internet and GPS were created for the sole purpose of making the US army a more deadly killing machine.

    Bows and arrows were invented to kill. Archery is an Olympic sport as is shooting,

    The for a long time in this country the reserves took their weapons home. A number of counties their reserves still do without problems.

    Fed Ex from Eastern Europe is the least of our worries, a yacht from Holland seems to be preferable.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    TheNog wrote: »
    But it has never happened. It has happened where guns wer stolen from houses though.

    Well, technically were not a lot of firearms stolen from police barracks during the War of Independence? Granted, that was RIC not AGS, but the principle stands.
    B, On that basis why not simple let everyone carry guns whenever they please?

    Funny you should mention that. OpEd in the Times this week:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article5299010.ece

    Ignore the somewhat hyperbolic first part, and move to the second half.
    Today we are probably more shocked at the idea of so many ordinary Londoners carrying guns in the street than we are at the idea of an armed robbery. But the world of Conan Doyle’s Dr Watson, pocketing his revolver before he walked the London streets, was real. The arming of the populace guaranteed rather than disturbed the peace.

    That armed England existed within living memory; but it is now so alien to our expectations that it has become a foreign country
    <snip>
    “Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India,” Mahatma Gandhi said, “history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.”

    Of course, it will be soundly regarded as being a crackpot opinion and will never come to pass. Still, there's no denying that in the UK and Ireland, people did used to routinely carry pistols without a license and without massacres going on in the streets. Heck, even Beatrix Potter packed heat.
    Luckily he does, because thats a 5.56mm steyr with fully-auto capabilities, a bit overkill for anyone to have in their home, wouldn't you think.

    Here's a question for you. In the US, such weapons are available with restrictions slightly less than what happens in Ireland: ATF investigation, letter of recommendation from the local chief of police, and so on. People so authorised are called Class III permit holders, there are tens of thousands of them, the vast majority for recreational purposes. (Total of about a quarter-million machineguns registered with the ATF, split about half between police and private citizens). Now, have a think about this, and bear in mind the reputation the US has for firearms and firearms violence: How many registered automatic weapons have been used to murder people since the restrictions came in in 1986? You may be very surprised by the answer. Or even easier to find, what percentage of crimes are committed by the semi-auto versions, be they legally held or otherwise, the so-called "assault weapons"?

    I like my 5.56mm rifles. And my 7.62mm. They're great fun to shoot, but I don't shoot them in my home. Something to do with my home not being a range, the wife would probably get annoyed if I put bullet holes in the walls. I leave them unloaded until I go to somewhere it's both practical and legal to shoot them. In that case, why does it matter if it's a .50 cal or a .22LR?

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    In that case, why does it matter if it's a .50 cal or a .22LR?

    NTM

    God bless America :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭meathmannn


    Sorry guys, but the whole legally held firearms thing is rubbish.
    I've done a lot of research in this area.
    Fact, stolen fireams used in crime in Ireland......all shotguns!
    Pistol owners here mainly have, gun safe and monitored alarm, they dont get stolen,and havent been used in any crime.

    Pistols banned in Scotland, gun crime has escalated at the same rate as Ireland.
    It's easier for a criminal to get a gun than a sportsperson who invests thousands.

    I dont know what the Garda Comissioner and Justice Minister are hoping to achieve by their recent comments. It's illegal guns we need to get rid of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    meathmannn wrote: »
    Fact, stolen fireams used in crime in Ireland......all shotguns!
    Evidence please.
    meathmannn wrote: »
    Pistol owners here mainly have, gun safe and monitored alarm, they dont get stolen,and havent been used in any crime.
    Evidence please
    meathmannn wrote: »
    Pistols banned in Scotland, gun crime has escalated at the same rate as Ireland.
    Ok then, lets arm everyone with multiple weapons, maybe gun crime will go down.
    meathmannn wrote: »
    It's easier for a criminal to get a gun than a sportsperson who invests thousands.
    Yep sure is, he simple steals the license holders one. How a perosn gets a legal firearm and how much it costs has absolutely no bearing on the subject.
    meathmannn wrote: »
    It's illegal guns we need to get rid of.
    Well stopping an average of 240 per year from being stolen is a start.
    meathmannn wrote: »
    I dont know what the Garda Comissioner and Justice Minister are hoping to achieve by their recent comments.
    Do you think maybe, just maybe the top police officer in the country might know something you dont.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭budda15c


    Evidence please.


    Evidence please


    Ok then, lets arm everyone with multiple weapons, maybe gun crime will go down.

    No point making ridiculous claims:rolleyes:


    Yep sure is, he simple steals the license holders one. How a perosn gets a legal firearm and how much it costs has absolutely no bearing on the subject.


    Well stopping an average of 240 per year from being stolen is a start.


    Do you think maybe, just maybe the top police officer in the country might know something you dont.


    Karlito: Any chance you might provide me with some evidence that every District HQ has an 'armoury'... Have you by any chance been in every District HQ in the country or are you basing you claims on your experience in Dublin Stations.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    budda15c wrote: »
    Karlito: Any chance you might provide me with some evidence that every District HQ has an 'armoury'... Have you by any chance been in every District HQ in the country or are you basing you claims on your experience in Dublin Stations.

    Every Divisional HQ has armed detectives assigned to them therefore an armoury for weapons to be signed in and out from. Theres only a few 'district HQs' as most districts consist of only 1 station anyway.

    What are your claims based on?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Ok then, lets arm everyone with multiple weapons, maybe gun crime will go down

    Well, what's the worst that happens? It's on the way up as it is, so it can either continue going up, stay the same, or start going down...

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭meathmannn


    re: Evidence please.

    Refer to pulse.
    "Pistol owners here mainly have, gun safe and monitored alarm, they dont get stolen,and havent been used in any crime"

    Talk to your firearms officer, I haven't come across a super who will isue a cert for a pistol without a safe, and most insist on the alarm too.

    Can anyone reference a crime commited with a stolen pistol or rifle?? I haven't found one example.

    Stolen firearms unfortunately tend to be the ones used as farm tools. Many farmers keep the shotgun lying around which become easy targets to villans.

    Now dont get me wrong, I'm all on for proper gun control. If its not used for a sport or for work (farming/deer culling/vet) then as per the firearms act, you shouldn't get one. But hastling the average shooter who according to garda figures quoted in the Dail (question 797,2004 Minister for Justice) is 49 years of age and has no criminal record.... it's no solution.

    I think Gardai need the funding equipment and resources to target the illegal guns.

    Stay safe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Meath,
    Im not refering to pulse and I doubt your creaming such stats from it either seeing as it will only show 50 results per search and Im not aware of a way to find such stats on it (such as if a stolen weapon was used). I also recommend you dont use pulse to research topics that are being discussed on the internet as members have been disciplined for improper use.

    As for legally held firearms, again I dont doubt holders are responsible and safe with their weapons but the reality is criminals break into homes and ransack them on a regular basis. Regardless of what you keep secure or what they are looking for, if they want your gun they are going to take it. My local super never made my father get a gun safe for his rifle. A legally held rifle in a house in a Dublin suburb with no safe and owned by a man who hasnt hunted in about ten years.

    And you cant get beyond the fact that 1200 legally held firearms have been stolen. What are you suggesting has happened to these guns? that the people who stole them were anti-gun and melted them all down then made toys with the remains? Come on, they are in criminals hands and either have been used in crime or are being stored for future use.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭meathmannn


    But again why are we being sidetracked into lets ban pistols?
    Proper gun control.
    Safe should be mandatory and enforced.
    If firearm is not needed or being used then the 1925 Act should kick in, and licence should not be renewed.

    Look at the 30 years or so of no pistols here, we had one of the worlds most efficient terrorist organisations heavily armed.

    Why hasn't anyone anounced the yearly figures? I'd take a good guess it's declining, otherwise the 5 year figure wouldn't be used.

    If the real issue is 240 firearms per year stolen, out of almost 250,000 (less than 1 in 1000 stolen) then something should be done to help prevent them.

    Then if we want to play with figures, firearms offences which are quoted regularly. How many include what the general public think a firearms is? I.E. a gun, when we know a firearms/offensive weapon are knives, bats, screwdrivers, hammers etc.

    Anyway we could debate it forever. 1 firearm stolen is too many. It's the firearms officer's job to educate the owner, enforce the legislation etc. etc.
    Unfortunately like so many members they have 101 other things to do. I know one who had 1100 licences to deal with, and worked in the warrants office of a divisional HQ... how could he ever visit each house and inspect/advise them on security.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Meath,
    Im not refering to pulse and I doubt your creaming such stats from it either seeing as it will only show 50 results per search and Im not aware of a way to find such stats on it (such as if a stolen weapon was used).

    Thats because its not tracked. Its been asked of the minister before in the Dáil and the jist of the answer was that the stat was so small that the amount of Garda time it would take to get it wouldn't be worth it.
    As for legally held firearms, again I dont doubt holders are responsible and safe with their weapons but the reality is criminals break into homes and ransack them on a regular basis. Regardless of what you keep secure or what they are looking for, if they want your gun they are going to take it. My local super never made my father get a gun safe for his rifle. A legally held rifle in a house in a Dublin suburb with no safe and owned by a man who hasnt hunted in about ten years.

    Thats a failing of the system and the Gardai. Every year he's licence is reissued without question despite having no good reason to have it which is agains the law. This goes on to this day. There are people who stop bothering to renew the licence and the gun is never taken off them. Again a serious failing of the system and the Gardai.

    The reality is the system is easily fixed and shooters have been pushing for that for years. The laws are all there and jsut need to be used. YOu asked does the the top garda in tha land in know somethign we dont? Well judeging by his answers to the Public accounts comittee 2 weeks ago he dosn't know much about firearms legislation which is very worrying.

    If I leave my gun club they ring my station and tell them. WHat they do with that info is anyones guess.
    And you cant get beyond the fact that 1200 legally held firearms have been stolen. What are you suggesting has happened to these guns? that the people who stole them were anti-gun and melted them all down then made toys with the remains? Come on, they are in criminals hands and either have been used in crime or are being stored for future use.

    Its a sad stat alright and I have no doubt that some were used in crimes. What I am sure of is the ones that were used were shotguns. Im also sure that they will continue to be shotguns because the minister is going to do nothing to change that. He's quoted as saying as much in the Dáil this week.

    So in 5 years time handguns will be banned our guncrime will have gone through the roof and 1200 more firearms will ahve been stolen. Fair play to the Government.

    We need to learn from our past. In 1971 all firearms above .22 were taken off the public due to the threat of criminals breaking in to steal them. 35 years later the massive arenal that those criminals amassed despite the Gov has either been chopped up or has made its way in to more criminal hands.

    No such prohibition happend in the noth where all the problems were and it wasn't an issue.

    We need to stop paining over the issues and actully fix them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭fishdog


    And you cant get beyond the fact that 1200 legally held firearms have been stolen
    Yes, it is not good.

    A lot of the stolen firearms are because of situations like this:
    My local super never made my father get a gun safe for his rifle. A legally held rifle in a house in a Dublin suburb with no safe and owned by a man who hasnt hunted in about ten years.
    This is not the fault of safe responsible shooters.

    With pistols this situation would not be allowed by the local super.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Fish, you cant say what a super would or would not do. In a lot of places he has little to do with licensing anyway.

    I used my father as an example to show a lot of guns (Note its not a shotgun) are being held without any real need or reason. Im not argueing against handguns, Im arguing against ALL privately owned guns. I find little evidence to suggest any but a minor amount are actually needed and certainly thats the case in suburban areas.

    In the case of handguns, the arguements for allowing ownershipi rest on the simple fact that pistol owners 'want' to own them. They certainly dont 'need' to own them.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    The want versus need argument is lame you can argue we dont need much of anything in the world but it would be a **** world to live in.

    Whats your hobby I guarantee I can take lumps out of it with that argument.

    As I said just because the Gardai dont operate the law peopely is not a good reason to ban soimething.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Rew wrote: »
    The want versus need argument is lame you can argue we dont need much of anything in the world but it would be a **** world to live in.

    Whats your hobby I guarantee I can take lumps out of it with that argument.

    As I said just because the Gardai dont operate the law peopely is not a good reason to ban soimething.

    And just because you want something is no reason to allow other people to be put in danger by its existence.

    Your right, I dont 'need' sport or books or indeed a lot of things I enjoy like fast food and if people were being force fed fattening food until they die I would have to accept peoples safety over my desire. Just like I accept I cant smoke in many public places because my 'want' to smoke is not as important as your 'need' for healthy lungs.

    If your weapons are stolen and used to commit murder you need to take some of the responsibility just as people arguing for ownership need to look at themselves and consider the likes of Dunblane. Could you argue your point to the parents that lost children? I doubt they would accept your points.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭fishdog


    Fish, you cant say what a super would or would not do. In a lot of places he has little to do with licensing anyway.
    In most cases I would agree, but with pistols he has everything to do with licensing, 1st off he must personally sign off on it.

    They always insist on security for pistols (safes, alarms etc.)
    I used my father as an example to show a lot of guns (Note its not a shotgun) are being held without any real need or reason.
    I know and you have a valid point. This issue does need addressing.

    I find little evidence to suggest any but a minor amount are actually needed and certainly thats the case in suburban areas.
    Well if someone owns a firearm and has not bought any ammunition for it for many years (that should be easy to check as the FAC details are recorded everytime ammunition is purchased) or if they have nowhere to use it why not refuse to relicense it??
    In the case of handguns, the arguements for allowing ownershipi rest on the simple fact that pistol owners 'want' to own them. They certainly dont 'need' to own them.
    I think this could be applied to sports cars! Legally held sports cars have killed far more people than legally held firearms.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Dunblane could have been prevented before it happend it was a failing of the police not firearms ownership but it was the firearms owners who paid for it.

    I think if someone wants to kill 16 kids then they will do it regardless of having a gun or not. I happen to know people who have been shot and shot and killed their their families dont blame the guns they blame those responsible. If you steal my car and kill someone am I responsible? Stolen cars are used in robberies and murders every day. Will not have a gun prevent a murder or will they pick up a knife or a blunt object instead?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    Rew wrote: »
    Dunblane could have been prevented before it happend it was a failing of the police not firearms ownership but it was the firearms owners who paid for it.

    What a moronic post. I believe it was the 17 innocent victims who lost their lives that paid for it. Gun laws were tightened up post Dunblane in an attempt to prevent a repitition of mass-murder, and as a result gun owners had to surrender their pistols, boo hoo.

    I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your post, as it would only embarrass you further than you have already embarrassed yourself.

    It's posts like this that concern me, when they're the view of a person in possession of a firearm, purportedly.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1499723/Released-files-reveal-police-failure-over-Dunblane.html
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/2860977.stm
    http://news.scotsman.com/dunblanekillings/Dunblane-files-show-police-flaws.2666156.jp

    http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Thomas-Hamilton-(Dunblane-murderer)
    The Sportsman’s Association report identifies 18 documented procedural failings by Central Scottish Police, each of which in its own right should have resulted in Hamilton’s Firearms Certificate (FAC) being revoked. These were fundamental policing errors and omissions each of which would have removed Hamilton’s authority to possess firearms well before Dunblane.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Heckler


    metman wrote: »
    What a moronic post. I believe it was the 17 innocent victims who lost their lives that paid for it. Gun laws were tightened up post Dunblane in an attempt to prevent a repitition of mass-murder, and as a result gun owners had to surrender their pistols, boo hoo.

    I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your post, as it would only embarrass you further than you have already embarrassed yourself.

    It's posts like this that concern me, when they're the view of a person in possession of a firearm, purportedly.

    Boohoo indeed. And what did the UK handgun ban do ? Push up the rate of guncrime by 500 percent.

    I own a .22lr rifle. Kept in a gun safe with a 24hr monitored alarm. Nobody outside the people living where the rifle is (family) know where I store it. Even if my close friends ask me where I keep it I say at the rifle range because you never know how things might get back to the wrong person. Note that my rifle club does not store firearms for the very reason that it would be a huge target for criminals.

    Every time the gun debate is brought up Dunblane is cited. This is unfair. Some say Dunblane was a failure of the UK police to recognise a threat when the firearm licence was approved. I own a firearm now. Whos to say in 10 years time I'm not going to have some sort of mental breakdown and go nuts with my rifle ? To legislate against the maybes and possibles is a downward trend. To Metman the level of knife crime in Britain should be of far more immediate concern to all involved.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    metman wrote: »
    What a moronic post. I believe it was the 17 innocent victims who lost their lives that paid for it. Gun laws were tightened up post Dunblane in an attempt to prevent a repitition of mass-murder, and as a result gun owners had to surrender their pistols, boo hoo.

    The vast majority of pistol owners in the UK had done nothing wrong, yet were punished for it. To that extent, they also put a bit of a joint payment for Dunblane.

    How many other things do we remove from society because someone might do something wrong with it? In the same year as the 17 were killed at Dunblane, how many people were killed by drunk drivers, yet we do not take away people's car keys or stop letting people buy alcohol. We don't put 70mph speed limiters on cars, even though it's supposedly unlawful and dangerous to go faster than that. Firearms produce an emotive and irrational response, for some reason.

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Heckler wrote: »
    I own a firearm now. Whos to say in 10 years time I'm not going to have some sort of mental breakdown and go nuts with my rifle ?

    Thats exactly why all firearms should be in Garda armories imo. Sign in/sign out for them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    In response to the question, what would you take into the afterlife? Heckler replies:
    Heckler wrote: »
    Guns. Lots of guns. Just in case.

    I have no further questions your honour :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    It was a joke and an obvious one at that and dragging it in here is sad. Did you look at the other resposnes in that thread? Cock rings, weed, Worcester sauce, "A bible, to scribble out all the lies"?


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