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Leap Card - NFC support on the way
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So going by the graph it will be 2017 until we see contactless bank card support and it will require DB ticket machines and Leap readers to be replace first!
Really this all should have been in place from the start, not 6 years later!!
Also please god, add Dublin Bikes support to the Leap Card. I really hate having to carry all this unnecessary cards all the time!
One other element to enquire upon is what attitude the Irish Banking System will adopt regarding NFC transactions on their accounts....They all appear to have begun by offering FREE introductory periods,but no further info to hand on what charging they will impose if and when NFC takes off ?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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One other element to enquire upon is what attitude the Irish Banking System will adopt regarding NFC transactions on their accounts....They all appear to have begun by offering FREE introductory periods,but no further info to hand on what charging they will impose if and when NFC takes off ?
I just checked and BOI extended the free period to late November without notifying me - I'd all but stopped using it due to expecting to be charged 20c a go.0 -
I just checked and BOI extended the free period to late November without notifying me - I'd all but stopped using it due to expecting to be charged 20c a go.
Isn't it the shop they would be charging 20c a go? BOI waived the merchants fee for contactless, I don't think the consumer pays anything more, other than whatever the bank is already charging you for using your card for any other transaction
EDIT: woah I just checked and BOI intend to charge the consumer 20c a go!! That's madness! My bank says they are free (and not just an introductory offer either)0 -
NFC is now being trialled and launching soon: http://www.thejournal.ie/leap-card-smartphone-top-up-january-2500952-Dec2015/0
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Isn't it the shop they would be charging 20c a go? BOI waived the merchants fee for contactless, I don't think the consumer pays anything more, other than whatever the bank is already charging you for using your card for any other transaction
EDIT: woah I just checked and BOI intend to charge the consumer 20c a go!! That's madness! My bank says they are free (and not just an introductory offer either)
To update, BOI never introduced the 20c charge; it was delayed at free until eventually it came in at 1c; non contactless is 10c.0 -
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I know this is an old thread, but I have to jump on this.I think its fantastic that a state body is taking an incentive. Transport is the only section of the Irish state bodies that is trying to follow international standards and exceed them eg Dublin Bikes, NFC on phones( Even amazing Germany still uses paper tickets).
Germany may still use paper tickets, but their system is way better - paper or no paper. I remember being there in the Noughties and the first time I used a Germany city rail system I thought I had to buy tickets for each different mode. In Berlin in particular I bought a BVG paper ticket, and though my destination would have been much easier to get to had I used the S-Bahn all or part of the way (there was a choice between S and U Bahn), I stuck to them U Bahn because I thought that's what I had bought a ticket for.
I was astounded when I found out that even one-use tickets are totally intermodal - you can use them for the S Bahn, the U Bahn, the trams and the buses, without distinction.
Ireland on the other hand used technology to cover for the fact that Dublin's transport system is a dis-integrated mess. So you can use your same leap card to pay a separate fare on the bus, another for the Luas, and another for the Dart/Commuter.
Still not as good as a piece of card paper in Berlin.0 -
We must be about 25yrs behind Germany with regard to intermodal journeys.0
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Agreed. I lived in Munich 20 years ago, and I'm pretty sure they still have the same paper ticket based system today. When I was there, they were still using the original train sets from the 1970s. I'd say the paper tickets go back to then as well. They were built to last, and there isn't the same shiny toy technology obsession over there.
Having said that, the Leap card app is a useful innovation, but as mentioned on the other thread, Leap is already partially obsolete. There isn't any reason not to support contactless debit cards on the system itself and not all phones will work with the app unfortunately.0 -
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I see this often with many IT projects, in particular government ones.
You have a broken manual process and rather then trying to fix it, they instead add an IT system on top thinking it will fix it. Well it almost never does and just ends up with a badly broken IT process.
The issues with ticketing and integration of public transport have existed for decades before Leap came along and they needed to be fixed decades ago, instead of trying to put shiny new technology on a broken process.
20 years ago we needed to copy Germany, Poland, Prague, etc. Multidoor buses where you got on any door you wanted and simply validated your ticket * with a little machine that prints the date and time on it. That then gives you 90 minutes of travel across the network of buses, trams, metros, etc.
* You buy the tickets off the bus, either from shops or machines. You normally buy a book of tickets and just keep them in your pocket/purse.
This setup has been the norm across most of Europe for the past 30 years and it really isn't rocket science. It leads to a highly integrated, easy to use, public transport system, with excellent low dwell times and it doesn't require any fancy technology *
* Many of these systems do have smart card systems now too, but they still support the paper tickets. The smart card is just a convenience.0 -
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Having said that, the Leap card app is a useful innovation, but as mentioned on the other thread, Leap is already partially obsolete. There isn't any reason not to support contactless debit cards on the system itself and not all phones will work with the app unfortunately.
Not possible without having a live connection on each ticket machine, until the entire Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann fleet is replaced with live terminals, it simply isn't going to be an option unless they are cards with actual LEAP on-them as well as standard debit cards.
This was how contactless card payments started in London as far back as September 2007, with the Barclaycard Onepulse but other banks did not follow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnePulse
There's also the issue that LEAP requires you to have actual credit on your card before you travel, whereas the con tactless cards require live auth or if not live auth the chance that a transaction might not go through, which leaves risk of revenue loss, unlike LEAP where it's a straight you have the credit or you don't.0 -
Agreed. I lived in Munich 20 years ago, and I'm pretty sure they still have the same paper ticket based system today.
True, but this isn't the whole truth. The paper tickets are still around and you'd probably still be familiar with the kinds that are available. But there are also mobile phone tickets that you can purchase online in an app and that can be validated by inspectors via hand-held devices.
But there's a truly crucial difference between Munich and Dublin that you will be aware of but didn't mention: that all transport modes operated on an honesty system that means no ticket barriers. This is game-changing, because it means that the introduction of mobile tickets required no technology retrofit to stations, tram platforms or (shudder) buses. All they needed was to equip their revenue protection spot-checkers with something that can read a QR code. And the paper tickets continue to work like they always did. Interpreting the complexities of the network tariff structure and relating them to any passenger's itinerary is not the job of vehicle- or station-mounted technology, it is devolved to humans and only on a spot check basis.
If you consider all of the reasons why proper intermodal ticket integration is hard in Dublin - like the need to have disconnected ticket machines on buses see and understand your journey history, your final journey intentions _and_ relate that to the full network tariff system - Munich is freed from all that guff by that one cultural shift. And the honesty culture isn't even alien to us in Ireland, it's how things work on trams.0 -
If you consider allof the reasons why proper intermodal ticket integration is hard in Dublin - like the need to have disconnected ticket machines on buses see and understand your journey history, your final journey intentions _and_ relate that to the full network tariff system - Munich is freed from all that guff by that one cultural shift. And the honesty culture isn't even alien to us in Ireland, it's how things work on trams.
The amount of fare evasion I see on a daily basis means that such system being even further rolled out aside from trams is a complete non starter unless the punishments for evasion are increased dramatically along with the number of inspections being increased by about 1000%.0 -
Right, it wasn't meant to be an exhaustive description of the system. They adopt technology when it makes sense. Like, when you visit Munich you see boarded up ticket offices in most stations. They were used once, but were replaced by machines decades ago. The technology isn't a sticking plaster though is really what I was getting atTrue, but this isn't the whole truth. The paper tickets are still around and you'd probably still be familiar with the kinds that are available. But there are also mobile phone tickets that you can purchase online in an app and that can be validated by inspectors via hand-held devices.
But, do you really think the lack of intermodal transfer is down to (a lack of) honesty?But there's a truly crucial difference between Munich and Dublin that you will be aware of but didn't mention: that all transport modes operated on an honesty system that means no ticket barriers. This is game-changing, because it means that the introduction of mobile tickets required no technology retrofit to stations, tram platforms or (shudder) buses. All they needed was to equip their revenue protection spot-checkers with something that can read a QR code. And the paper tickets continue to work like they always did. Interpreting the complexities of the network tariff structure and relating them to any passenger's itinerary is not the job of vehicle- or station-mounted technology, it is devolved to humans and only on a spot check basis.
If you consider all of the reasons why proper intermodal ticket integration is hard in Dublin - like the need to have disconnected ticket machines on buses see and understand your journey history, your final journey intentions _and_ relate that to the full network tariff system - Munich is freed from all that guff by that one cultural shift. And the honesty culture isn't even alien to us in Ireland, it's how things work on trams.
I think it's fear of change from the operators who are afraid they will be the ones to lose revenue out of it.
Surely if the enormous cost invested in this technology was just put into revenue protection, wouldn't that achieve a better result in the long run?0 -
Of course, I shouldn't have said 'no reason'. There's always a reason :pac:Not possible without having a live connection on each ticket machine, until the entire Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann fleet is replaced with live terminals, it simply isn't going to be an option unless they are cards with actual LEAP on-them as well as standard debit cards.
This was how contactless card payments started in London as far back as September 2007, with the Barclaycard Onepulse but other banks did not follow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnePulse
There's also the issue that LEAP requires you to have actual credit on your card before you travel, whereas the con tactless cards require live auth or if not live auth the chance that a transaction might not go through, which leaves risk of revenue loss, unlike LEAP where it's a straight you have the credit or you don't.
If we had the same honesty based system as Munich, there would be no need for all of this. If we can't have that, then it seems a lot of the complexity around Leap results from the bus terminals not being online, which seems odd given the free wifi on DB at least.0 -
If we had the same honesty based system as Munich, there would be no need for all of this. If we can't have that.
But there would be a need for hiring of a lot more inspectors to enforce it, I'd presume that considering the amount of evasion I see on a daily basis, they would pay for themselves, but it's not a given.
I see people avoiding barriers at Irish Rail stations because they are left open so don't have to pay, over-riding fraud on Dublin Bus is still rifle even if student fraud and free travel pass fraud is cut, and on the LUAS, there's a thread about it on here, evasion is rampant there as well.then it seems a lot of the complexity around Leap results from the bus terminals not being online, which seems odd given the free wifi on DB at least.
It's related to the age of the ticket machines and the capability of them. The only solution is to replace the ticket machines with technology that isn't based on a chip that was obsolete over 10 years ago.
The machines are already slow at performing their existing duties, adding anything else to them is going to make the issue even worse and something major like real time online connections, even if possible, which I'm pretty sure it is not, would bring the whole system down on a regular basis.0 -
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Interesting. Just shows the perils of hi-tech really and that it's rarely a silver bullet.But there would be a need for hiring of a lot more inspectors to enforce it, I'd presume that considering the amount of evasion I see on a daily basis, they would pay for themselves, but it's not a given.
I see people avoiding barriers at Irish Rail stations because they are left open so don't have to pay, over-riding fraud on Dublin Bus is still rifle even if student fraud and free travel pass fraud is cut, and on the LUAS, there's a thread about it on here, evasion is rampant there as well.
It's related to the age of the ticket machines and the capability of them. The only solution is to replace the ticket machines with technology that isn't based on a chip that was obsolete over 10 years ago.
The machines are already slow at performing their existing duties, adding anything else to them is going to make the issue even worse and something major like real time online connections, even if possible, which I'm pretty sure it is not, would bring the whole system down on a regular basis.
The discussion has just reminded me of back when I used to use Irish rail as a student on the northern line back in the 70s/80s. The tickets were these little cards you stick in a machine which punches a corner out of it. The multi-journey tickets were not unlike the German ones, where each journey just punched one additional little chunk and you could check them easily. The system was honesty based with no barriers. There could have been ticket inspectors though at station exits. Though that wasn't always the case.
It also occurred to me that a lot of the problems with honesty based systems stem from the inability of the state to collect fines etc. efficiently. I understand there is a similar problem with M50 tolls, parking fines etc. Maybe that's the problem that needs to be solved first.0 -
Interesting. Just shows the perils of hi-tech really and that it's rarely a silver bullet.
The discussion has just reminded me of back when I used to use Irish rail as a student on the northern line back in the 70s/80s. The tickets were these little cards you stick in a machine which punches a corner out of it. The multi-journey tickets were not unlike the German ones, where each journey just punched one additional little chunk and you could check them easily. The system was honesty based with no barriers. There could have been ticket inspectors though at station exits. Though that wasn't always the case.
It also occurred to me that a lot of the problems with honesty based systems stem from the inability of the state to collect fines etc. efficiently. I understand there is a similar problem with M50 tolls, parking fines etc. Maybe that's the problem that needs to be solved first.
To give you an example, I have never been checked by an inspector on a bus or on a train for approx 18 months. This is with taking about 10 trains a week and I'd say in the evening about 75% of the time barriers are left open without staff at least at one end of my journey and in the morning just over 50% of the time the barriers do not require tickets. I work with someone who has not paid for an Irish Rail ticket all year and openly boasts about it, they got caught twice over the whole course of the year of evading, but despite paying the fine, they're still better off than they would be if they paid their way.
Incidentally the main processing chip used by the Dublin Bus ticket machines was designed in 1986, the ticket machine (Wayfarer 150) itself hails from around 1999/2000 when it was first produced and was replaced by a newer version in 2006 (Wayfarer 200) by the manufacturers. Recently they manufacturers have launched yet another new version (Wayfarer 6), to replace the 9 year old version, which is still a version newer than what Dublin Bus have.0 -
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Not possible without having a live connection on each ticket machine, until the entire Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann fleet is replaced with live terminals, it simply isn't going to be an option unless they are cards with actual LEAP on-them as well as standard debit cards.
You mean like what buses in Atlanta have had since at least 2006!There's also the issue that LEAP requires you to have actual credit on your card before you travel, whereas the con tactless cards require live auth or if not live auth the chance that a transaction might not go through, which leaves risk of revenue loss, unlike LEAP where it's a straight you have the credit or you don't.
Contactless payments in London don't do live auth, as it would take too long *
Instead they simply record the transaction on the ticket machine and then add up all the journeys you did during the day, check if you hit the daily and weekly caps and charge everything as one transaction over night.
That is why if you take three journeys in a day, you will see only one charge to your bank account.
Of course this leaves them open to potential fraud, but relatively minor (just one days worth, then they black list the card). In the real world it doesn't seem to be a real issue.
* Though even live auth would be laughably faster then most people interacting with bus drivers for Leap! And this all shows a very different way of thinking in London. They seem to take the approach that it is more important to keep dwell times low, then worry about avoiding 100% of fare dodging.
You can see this approach repeated throughout Europe, where in places like Germany, Poland, etc. having completely open systems policed by fare checkers.But there's a truly crucial difference between Munich and Dublin that you will be aware of but didn't mention: that all transport modes operated on an honesty system that means no ticket barriers.
These systems aren't really based on honesty. Thrust me the Germans, Polish, etc. are just as happy to fare evade as the Irish IMO. What keeps them in line is high on the spot fines if caught and relatively large numbers of ticket checkers who are usually plain clothes and take no **** if you don't have a ticket.
BTW these ticket checkers are normally contractors, not salaried employees and their pay is based as a percentage of the fines they take, which is why they take no messing, unlike our rubbish ticket checkers. I also hear that despite the relatively large number of them, the fines more then pay for them and fare evasion is relatively low on these open systems.0 -
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Instead they simply record the transaction on the ticket machine and then add up all the journeys you did during the day, check if you hit the daily and weekly caps and charge everything as one transaction over night.
I completely agree with the idea, but the back-end work is going to be huge to get something like this off the ground, it's not like it can just be rolled out and off we go, due to the very nature of the current infrastructure we have in Ireland.
Firstly you're going to have to make sure that you have the relevant equipment on bus to allow for this as well as the depots, which if the roll-out of past ticket machine changes is anything to go by, will take well over a year before everyone is trained on it and everything is installed.
Also one of the biggest issues with contactless cards being used is the ability to check if someone has a valid ticket by inspectors. Since there is no product or e-purse and transactions are not debited until the night, there is no way to tell if someone has a valid ticket or bothered to tag on or not,
The theoretical way around it is by supplying inspectors with WIFI Capable card readers that connect to a secure WIFI connection on the bus, that they can access the tag on/off data from that bus and can cross-reference a list of card numbers with the people on the bus and see if they tagged on or not.
That raises a number of concerns, such as how to compare the card data, and the exchange of full card data over the wireless network between validator, card and bus which has obvious security implications and again will require substantial investment in equipment and systems in order to do this.
The cost of purchasing all this brand new equipment and the cost of implementing the back-end would be huge, and that is coming from someone who has worked on similar projects. I'd far rather they try and develop leap more and instead invest the large amount of money saved in developing the level of services. Don't get me wrong I'd like to see it, but it shouldn't be high up the list of priorities.
That's without even considering the fact that the big difference between London and Dublin with operators business models such as that fares go direct to TFL who pay the operators fees to run routes and distribute the fair revenue. In Ireland fares remain the property of the company who have an interest in farebox revenue and that is not really compatible with a London style contactless debit/credit card system.
Saying London have it so we should have it is a fallacy, really, because the fact is London has so much better transport infrastructure and a business model with transport operators that is more suited to such arrangement, there are a lot of things that should be higher up the list than this, we haven't even got the basic right in Dublin yet, when we have, I'll be fully behind the idea.
But when I can't board a train because Irish Rail can't allocate their rolling stock properly on the Malahide Branch and have to wait 45 minutes for the next train whilst countless Howth Trains go past with barely a soul on them, believe me spending tens of millions on a contactless project that will take a long while to plan, implement and get up to speed when the basics still need fixing is not really sensible use of money. There are plenty of things that the NTA could be doing instead that will make a much bigger difference to public transport users.These systems aren't really based on honesty. Thrust me the Germans, Polish, etc. are just as happy to fare evade as the Irish IMO. What keeps them in line is high on the spot fines if caught and relatively large numbers of ticket checkers who are usually plain clothes and take no **** if you don't have a ticket.
BTW these ticket checkers are normally contractors, not salaried employees and their pay is based as a percentage of the fines they take, which is why they take no messing, unlike our rubbish ticket checkers. I also hear that despite the relatively large number of them, the fines more then pay for them and fare evasion is relatively low on these open systems.
Do you really think that the Unions would allow contractors to take the place of salaries inspectors? When this has happened in other countries in the past including the UK, the unions have generally gone on strike claiming a casualisation of work and drumming down terms and conditions. I agree that it would be a great solution since the current staff on irish Rail gates just watch people evade and don't do a thing, but I can't see it happening.
I would like to see a law passed like there is in the UK though, where if it is found you had no intention to pay a fare you can be prosecuted pay a much larger fine than here and get a criminal record, or there is a smaller offence of not having a valid ticket with a smaller fine and no risk of prosecution. €100 is too little, there needs ot be enough inspections and a high enough fine so that if someone does evade all year get caught twice a year they are still not better off than they would be if they paid the whole year.0 -
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I completely agree with the idea, but the back-end work is going to be huge to get something like this off the ground, it's not like it can just be rolled out and off we go, due to the very nature of the current infrastructure we have in Ireland.
Really it isn't that difficult at all. Certainly no more difficult then rolling it out in London which is 10 times larger and in the dozens of other cities that have similar systems.
At this stage it is perfectly standard and off the shelf systems.
I'm truly feed up with people coming up with excuses for why things that are perfectly standard in other cities can't be done here! Irish people seriously seem to have an inferiority complex and seem to think we are stuck in the 1950's still.
They seem to forget that Ireland is now the silicon valley of Europe with some of the bright minds from all over Europe working here.
Honestly as a software engineer, while it is not trivial, it really isn't that complicated at all and is no where close to what is developed by Irish people and others everyday in the likes of Google, Facebook, etc.
The truth is it is just a medium sized system integration project, that has been done dozens of times before and is certainly not rocket size.Firstly you're going to have to make sure that you have the relevant equipment on bus to allow for this as well as the depots, which if the roll-out of past ticket machine changes is anything to go by, will take well over a year before everyone is trained on it and everything is installed.
All already there, the existing ticket machines and readers already support NFC and RFID for Leap, which uses the same specs as contact less debits cards. Also the buses already record all Leap transactions and upload the results nightly via wifi in the depots to servers for overnight processing.
So really no changes there at all. The only changes you would need are new software for the existing ticket machines to support contact less EMV. Non trivial, but not particularly difficult either.Also one of the biggest issues with contactless cards being used is the ability to check if someone has a valid ticket by inspectors. Since there is no product or e-purse and transactions are not debited until the night, there is no way to tell if someone has a valid ticket or bothered to tag on or not,
The theoretical way around it is by supplying inspectors with WIFI Capable card readers that connect to a secure WIFI connection on the bus, that they can access the tag on/off data from that bus and can cross-reference a list of card numbers with the people on the bus and see if they tagged on or not.
That raises a number of concerns, such as how to compare the card data, and the exchange of full card data over the wireless network between validator, card and bus which has obvious security implications and again will require substantial investment in equipment and systems in order to do this.
This is the only place they might have to buy new equipment. But again not rocket science, London and other cities have already implemented this so obviously the hardware already exists and we are only talking about new hardware for 100 or so ticket checkers. It isn't going to break the bank.The cost of purchasing all this brand new equipment and the cost of implementing the back-end would be huge, and that is coming from someone who has worked on similar projects. I'd far rather they try and develop leap more and instead invest the large amount of money saved in developing the level of services. Don't get me wrong I'd like to see it, but it shouldn't be high up the list of priorities.
Really, their isn't much new hardware needed to make this happen. Certainly far less then what was required for the original Leap rollout. You are really making a mountain out of a mole hill with this project.
Sure it is non-trivial, but far from terribly difficult or expensive to do.That's without even considering the fact that the big difference between London and Dublin with operators business models such as that fares go direct to TFL who pay the operators fees to run routes and distribute the fair revenue. In Ireland fares remain the property of the company who have an interest in farebox revenue and that is not really compatible with a London style contactless debit/credit card system.
That isn't the way Leap works. The fares go to the NTA who then distribute it to the operators. That is how cross operator daily and weekly capping already works.Saying London have it so we should have it is a fallacy, really, because the fact is London has so much better transport infrastructure and a business model with transport operators that is more suited to such arrangement, there are a lot of things that should be higher up the list than this, we haven't even got the basic right in Dublin yet, when we have, I'll be fully behind the idea.
The problem is that it isn't just London, almost every city in Europe has better integrated ticketing systems then Ireland. From cities far smaller then Dublin to cities far larger. For example take a look at Amsterdam, a city with almost the exactly same size and population as Dublin, yet has a vastly superior, super modern, integrated ticketing system with contactless cards.
In the end you have to just stop with the excuses and start actually doing something to fix the very obvious problems we have here.
I will agree with you on one point. This is a basic problem, ticketing and it should have been fixed 20 years ago before we even thought about contactless cards etc. It really isn't that complicated.Do you really think that the Unions would allow contractors to take the place of salaries inspectors? When this has happened in other countries in the past including the UK, the unions have generally gone on strike claiming a casualisation of work and drumming down terms and conditions. I agree that it would be a great solution since the current staff on irish Rail gates just watch people evade and don't do a thing, but I can't see it happening.
And that is the core problem with public transport in Ireland. The semi-state companies are purely focused on the employees and not focused on delivering the best customer experience possible. Too many very obvious improvements are stymied by threats of strikes from the unions.I would like to see a law passed like there is in the UK though, where if it is found you had no intention to pay a fare you can be prosecuted pay a much larger fine than here and get a criminal record, or there is a smaller offence of not having a valid ticket with a smaller fine and no risk of prosecution. €100 is too little, there needs ot be enough inspections and a high enough fine so that if someone does evade all year get caught twice a year they are still not better off than they would be if they paid the whole year.
I agree completely.0 -
All already there, the existing ticket machines and readers already support NFC and RFID for Leap, which uses the same specs as contact less debits cards. Also the buses already record all Leap transactions and upload the results nightly via wifi in the depots to servers for overnight processing.
It would require extra functionality and an extra program to be loaded along with the one for leap and the one for cash fares, since cards would be handled differently to leap cards. Already there is a big lag between switching between leap and cash modes and the RAM and onboard storage for programs is supposed to be pretty much full, there would have to be another routine and method added for Cards and the machines simply couldn't take that, it took long enough to stop large amounts of issues with leap.So really no changes there at all. The only changes you would need are new software for the existing ticket machines to support contact less EMV. Non trivial, but not particularly difficult either.
The same ticket machines which have their onboard storage full and can only just fit software for leap and cash fares on them as it is? a Leap card number is what, about 10 digits. A card number is 16 + expiry date + the security fields which are also pulled from the card, it's gonna take twice the storage up of a Leap transaction details, meaning you can fit half as many transactions in RAM, what happens when the 1MB ram runs out and the machine crashes, and loses all it's data and thus revenue when rebooted? With leap the next time Leap interacts with a machine it can reconcile since balance is with the card, not so easy on a credit/debit card that doesn't hold those details.This is the only place they might have to buy new equipment. But again not rocket science, London and other cities have already implemented this so obviously the hardware already exists and we are only talking about new hardware for 100 or so ticket checkers. It isn't going to break the bank.
So tell me how does the new ticket checking equipment know if a person paid their fare or not? It would have to have a live link to the ticket machine ont he bus to cross reference every credit/debit card. You are gonna expect the 386 in there to also power the validators by Wifi and act as a Wifi hotspot for them? With their 1MB of ram? and still run the leap, card, and cash products, all concurrently, all with 1MB of RAM act as a Wifi hotspot and send and receive data, issues tickets, validate passes?
So you're expecting a ticket machine that has to keep reloading and unloading Leap and Cash programs because they can't fit a better system because of lack of space for the applications, and cannot multi-task, to run a hotspot, power the inspectors checkers and issue tickets all at once all with no slowdown and all at once? It's simply not going to happen, the ticket machines already are incapable of what is required of them, they have to be replaced. The revenue and operational impact would be catastrophic.That isn't the way Leap works. The fares go to the NTA who then distribute it to the operators. That is how cross operator daily and weekly capping already works.
But the difference with Leap is huge. You have to have the cash on the card in order to spend it meaning there is very little revenue risk in comparison with a card which can be used regardless of if it is valid or not because there is no live auth, and a checking and fraud prevention regime is at best much harder to implement than with a standard leap.The problem is that it isn't just London, almost every city in Europe has better integrated ticketing systems then Ireland. From cities far smaller then Dublin to cities far larger. For example take a look at Amsterdam, a city with almost the exactly same size and population as Dublin, yet has a vastly superior, super modern, integrated ticketing system with contactless card.
I agree, but in order to get us to a point where such a system is both operationally viable, with acceptable levels of revenue risk through the increased chances of fraud, it needs the appropriate infrastructure in place. The infrastructure in London certainly lends itself far more to a system like this being put in place because the fact is the adequately powered equipment, technology and operating environment exists.
What would be a half assed way of doing things is just shoe-horning brand new modern contactless card payments into an infrastructure that is based on 1990s technology at it's core and an operational environment which is also firmly stuck int he past. That's the trouble with most infrastructure in ireland to be honest, you have modern Intercity trains running or infrastructure that is way too inadequate for it's needs, buses with centre doors operating at stop infrastructure which is not set up for them. You can have all the shiny new technology you need, but if you don't have the appropriate infrastructure to back it up it's never going to reach it's potential.
Instead of focusing on shiny new stuff, it's about time Ireland fixed the basics, and believe me the basics in transport services in this country can do with an awful lot of improvement and then we can build better things on top of that rather than throwing more and more on an infrastructure that already cannot cope0 -
These systems aren't really based on honesty. Thrust me the Germans, Polish, etc. are just as happy to fare evade as the Irish IMO. What keeps them in line is high on the spot fines if caught and relatively large numbers of ticket checkers who are usually plain clothes and take no **** if you don't have a ticket.
I don't have to take it on trust (or thrust...) - I lived in Munich for many years and as it happens I'm there right now. So I know all about the propensity for fare evasion. The system is still based on honesty, though. It's just that the honesty is strongly encouraged by the consequences, which is basically what you are pointing out.
And from my observations, the enforcement levels vary from city to city, driven, I expect, by the levels of compliance. I have been checked as often during my very occasional visits to Berlin as I was in years of daily life in Munich. I'm going to take a wild guess that there is more fare evasion in Berlin.0 -
We must be about 25yrs behind Germany with regard to intermodal journeys.
Make that at least 36 years, they had it in Munich on my first trip to (West) Germany in 1979. You could buy a ticket at a machine at a bus stop and use any mode of public transport to get to your destination, including the U-bahn.0 -
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/motorist-fined-25-000-and-cars-seized-over-unpaid-m50-tolls-1.2469096
Interesting that TII are getting tough on M50 toll evaders. A similar approach is needed with public transport. It probably needs legislation though with increasing fines and maybe enforcement directly managed by TII. As well as the anecdotes recounted here I remember stories of certain bus routes in Dublin (in the past) where hardly anyone would pay, or only pay a "donation" that the driver was expected to pocket. I'm sure it's not that bad noawadays, but practices like this are toxic if tolerated. It's a wonder sometimes why anyone obeys the law in this country.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,526 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22122
I don't have to take it on trust (or thrust...) - I lived in Munich for many years and as it happens I'm there right now. So I know all about the propensity for fare evasion. The system is still based on honesty, though. It's just that the honesty is strongly encouraged by the consequences, which is basically what you are pointing out.
And from my observations, the enforcement levels vary from city to city, driven, I expect, by the levels of compliance. I have been checked as often during my very occasional visits to Berlin as I was in years of daily life in Munich. I'm going to take a wild guess that there is more fare evasion in Berlin.
I agree with everything you wrote, I was just having a little problem with the word "honesty".
I've seen a lot of people here in Ireland say that such open systems won't work here because Irish people are rule breakers and it only works in Germany because they are such stickler for following rules and are "honest".
Having been to these places myself I know such sentiment to be bs. Germans, Polish, etc. aren't anymore honest and rule followers then the Irish. It just seems that way because they are so strict in enforcing rules.
Or problem isn't "honesty" it is not being strict enough with enforcing rules and such open systems can certainly work very well here in Ireland as long as they are properly policed.
In other words I think you and I are in violent agreement
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"If you wish to participate in the trial, you can email LeapNFC@nationaltransport.ie."
https://www.thejournal.ie/leap-card-smartphone-top-up-january-2500952-Dec2015/0 -
"If you wish to participate in the trial, you can email LeapNFC@nationaltransport.ie."
https://www.thejournal.ie/leap-card-smartphone-top-up-january-2500952-Dec2015/
Lashed off an e-mail yesterday asking to be in the trial and got this reply today.....
Thanks for your interest. The Leap Top-Up App trial is now closed but the app is due to be officially launched to the wider public in the next couple of weeks.0 -
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Lashed off an e-mail yesterday asking to be in the trial and got this reply today.....
Thanks for your interest. The Leap Top-Up App trial is now closed but the app is due to be officially launched to the wider public in the next couple of weeks.
I got an email on 22nd Dec with a survey asking for feedback on the trial, so the end date must have been around then.0
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