How are the English different from us?

Dunford · 13-04-2015 9:47pm #1

Spaniards often tell me that the Irish are so different from the English.

How are we different? My experience here is we seem to be a friendlier and mix more with locals and learn the language more...in general.

What do u think? Are we even any different despite our different origins?

Fratton Fred · 13-04-2015 11:34pm

Dunford wrote: »

Spaniards often tell me that the Irish are so different from the English.

How are we different? My experience here is we seem to be a friendlier and mix more with locals and learn the language more...in general.

What do u think? Are we even any different despite our different origins?

A friend was in southern Spain with his family, in a cheap as chips hotel. At the pool bar, the barman called him English, so he politely pointed out that he was Scottish.

The barman then asked why he was on holiday with a group of drunken English families, which confused my friend because he was the only non Irish person in the hotel.

As he walked back to his lounger, he realised why the barman was confused. All the kids and half the adults were running around in Man United and Liverpool football shirts.

There is very very little difference between the two to be honest.

ardmacha · 13-04-2015 11:36pm

Any who thinks there is no difference between Ireland and England only has to go to a funeral.

IrishProd · 13-04-2015 11:54pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A friend was in southern Spain with his family, in a cheap as chips hotel. At the pool bar, the barman called him English, so he politely pointed out that he was Scottish.

The barman then asked why he was on holiday with a group of drunken English families, which confused my friend because he was the only non Irish person in the hotel.

As he walked back to his lounger, he realised why the barman was confused. All the kids and half the adults were running around in Man United and Liverpool football shirts.

There is very very little difference between the two to be honest.

Why because some Irish people wear English football jerseys or support non-Irish clubs?

By your logic there is no difference between Lithuanians & Polish people because some wear each other sports jerseys, or French people watching American Netflix programs means there is little difference between Americans and French people, or there is very little difference between English people and Germans because some shop on amazon.gr instead of amazon.uk.....:rolleyes:

Its called 'globalisation'

All neighboring countries have a shared history with another that is normal, it does not mean there is "little difference".

whisky_galore · 14-04-2015 11:05am

This smacks of your typical After Hours thread.

Genetically, we are quite similar to our neighbours than persons of a nationalistic bent like to think. Britain was 'Celtic' or at least spoke Celtic languages after all. Any social differences might be accounted for from their more rapid early industrialisation and growth of large cities. In general, many Irish people are only a few generations removed from working the land, so there would be better odds of the preservation of rural customs into modern times.

robp · 14-04-2015 11:32am

whisky_galore wrote: »

This smacks of your typical After Hours thread.

Genetically, we are quite similar to our neighbours than persons of a nationalistic bent like to think. Britain was 'Celtic' or at least spoke Celtic languages after all. Any social differences might be accounted for from their more rapid early industrialisation and growth of large cities. In general, many Irish people are only a few generations removed from working the land, so there would be better odds of the preservation of rural customs into modern times.

Same is true for France and much of Spain too.

IrishProd · 14-04-2015 11:34am

whisky_galore wrote: »

This smacks of your typical After Hours thread.

Genetically, we are quite similar to our neighbours than persons of a nationalistic bent like to think. Britain was 'Celtic' or at least spoke Celtic languages after all. Any social differences might be accounted for from their more rapid early industrialisation and growth of large cities. In general, many Irish people are only a few generations removed from working the land, so there would be better odds of the preservation of rural customs into modern times.

Closer genetically to people from the northern Iberian peninsula, the Basques for example, thats not saying that some Britons are not however.

whisky_galore · 14-04-2015 11:58am

That would make sense, it was far easier to travel by sea in ancient times than it was by land.

Ipso · 14-04-2015 3:00pm

IrishProd wrote: »

Closer genetically to people from the northern Iberian peninsula, the Basques for example, thats not saying that some Britons are not however.

No, Western British and Irish are closer genetically. Eastern Englush are a bit closer to Dutch, Danish, German etc due to Germanic invasions.
The Basque idea is basically the flat earth of genetics, way out of date with the field seriously advancing in the last five years.

IrishProd · 14-04-2015 3:45pm

Ipso wrote: »

No, Western British and Irish are closer genetically. Eastern Englush are a bit closer to Dutch, Danish, German etc due to Germanic invasions.
The Basque idea is basically the flat earth of genetics, way out of date with the field seriously advancing in the last five years.

A lot of valid research contradicts your assertion.

Example:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/a-tale-of-y-chromosomes-and-tea-leaves/

FYI: I said the Iberian Peninsula, I was only using the Basques as a non-specific example.

Ipso · 14-04-2015 4:01pm

Head counts mean nothing. Old forms of R1b have revently been found in remains from the Ukranian steppe, indicating an East West movement.
High numbers of R1b just mean fathers had lots of sons and their sons more sons and so on.
Autosomnal DNA shows how close populations are, that's where British and Irish cluster together.

This study is from when the age and origin if R1b started to be revised.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/08/back-to-drawing-board-for-r-m269-busby.html?m=1

robp · 15-04-2015 9:43am

Ipso wrote: »

No, Western British and Irish are closer genetically. Eastern Englush are a bit closer to Dutch, Danish, German etc due to Germanic invasions.
The Basque idea is basically the flat earth of genetics, way out of date with the field seriously advancing in the last five years.

Could it be a product of recent history. I wonder what the picture was like 1000 years ago.

whisky_galore · 15-04-2015 9:51am

robp wrote: »

Could it be a product of recent history. I wonder what the picture was like 1000 years ago.

There's been a hell of a lot of interaction between us and what is now Britain, hardly surprising given the proximity. Who was it that kidnapped St Patrick after all?

pedroeibar1 · 15-04-2015 10:58am

robp wrote: »

Could it be a product of recent history. I wonder what the picture was like 1000 years ago.

A 1000 years ago? Typical conversation when my late father spoke about the ancestral mention in the Doomsday Book (almost 1,000 years ago)– “Well, we don’t know exactly which of the two in the Book was our direct ancestor, but one, a freeman held a hide and the other, a sokeman had several virgates and the Inquisito Eliensis details them along with villeins and a number of slaves ……
Mother – Old soaks more like it, don’t mind your Inquisition, they were running around naked and painted blue with woad when my family were Kings wearing silk in Dal Cais!

Ipso · 15-04-2015 3:33pm

robp wrote: »

Could it be a product of recent history. I wonder what the picture was like 1000 years ago.

I'd say it's further back, even interaction between the North and Scotland goes back thousands of years.
Ultimately most European populations derive from the same few sources, the differences being they got different amounts at different times.
The most isolated areas (far West) would by and large escape much of the movements from the continent that England had.
Its also a case of how good of a proxy a modern Irish/Brit is for a historical one. Which I suppose really is the big question.

Dunford · 15-04-2015 10:50pm

personality wise though do we differ? The Spanish seem to think we're a lot nicer, open and friendlier.

are we that different?

Jesus. · 16-04-2015 12:30am

No we're no different. We're just as pissed up and just as ugly

InTheTrees · 16-04-2015 12:35am

Dunford wrote: »

personality wise though do we differ? The Spanish seem to think we're a lot nicer, open and friendlier.

are we that different?

I think if you looked at tourist surveys they'd say hands down that Ireland is much more open and friendly than england.

But thats through circumstances and environment. We all come from the same northern european DNA soup.

Mongfinder General · 16-04-2015 12:38am

InTheTrees wrote: »

I think if you looked at tourist surveys they'd say hands down that Ireland is much more open and friendly than england.

But thats through circumstances and environment. We all come from the same northern european DNA soup.

The English have sharper fangs and more pointed ears than the Irish. FACT.

DaBlackMask · 16-04-2015 12:51am

We're better Fact!!!

madmaggie · 16-04-2015 1:13am

Queues. I have lived in Ireland for a long time now, but am still perplexed as to why people charge headlong for a door, instead of forming a nice orderly queue. I was indoctrinated to queueing at a very young age.:D

Santa Cruz · 16-04-2015 4:26pm

The Irish are obsessed with what others think of them particularly Z list celebrities from soap land when they come here flogging their book or gob****es of US politicians chasing an Irish vote

dubhthach · 16-04-2015 4:53pm

IrishProd wrote: »

A lot of valid research contradicts your assertion.

Example:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/a-tale-of-y-chromosomes-and-tea-leaves/

FYI: I said the Iberian Peninsula, I was only using the Basques as a non-specific example.

Five year old blog post, times have changed. For example we now have ancient DNA which we didn't have 5 years ago. Also R1b-L21 was only discovered in what 2008 and 2009? Wherease R1b-DF27 (dominant branch of R1b in Iberia) was only discovered circa 2012.

dubhthach · 16-04-2015 4:55pm

robp wrote: »

Could it be a product of recent history. I wonder what the picture was like 1000 years ago.

Well we now have ancient DNA from Cambridgeshire including two Iron age men, who interesting enough cluster more with modern Irish/modern West Scots, than with modern English.

It's fairly evident that the English are an admixed population, think of Brazilians or mexicans except in their case they've only been undergoing admixture for 500 years as oppose to 1500 years for the English.

magicmushroom · 16-04-2015 5:03pm

I'm English and I live in Ireland - there is little difference to be honest.
As someone has already mentioned, funerals differ - in England it can take weeks to get one whereas here it's very quick.
The whole process of burying/cremating and then having a get together is basically the same though.

One thing I find over here is that people are a lot nosier - I don't mean that in the harsh or mean way it sounds - but it is true.
At home, there was a lot less of 'John Smith down the road done this' type of thing. It's not necessarily a bad thing as it's good sometimes to know what your neighbours are up to, helps to keep an eye on each other.
But people are more gossipy over here, more interested in what people are doing - I hear lot more gossip here and see a lot more judgement on people like single mothers, divorcees etc.

Irish people in general are pretty nice though, about the same as in England. I prefer to live here than England - not sure why really, just like it.

whisky_galore · 16-04-2015 5:32pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

The Irish are obsessed with what others think of them particularly Z list celebrities from soap land when they come here flogging their book or gob****es of US politicians chasing an Irish vote

Can't think of a time when any 'celeb' interviewed on the BBC from outside of the uk was asked if they (a) had any English relatives or (b) what they thought of the English or (c) if they had drank any English beer.:p

InTheTrees · 16-04-2015 7:34pm

magicmushroom wrote: »

As someone has already mentioned, funerals differ - in England it can take weeks to get one whereas here it's very quick.

Isnt that because Catholics dont like to leave a body unattended between death and burial so the funerals tend to be pretty quick just for logistical reasons, whereas the protestants dont really care so the body can left on ice for awhile to allow for arrangements.

I think thats the reason but I could be wrong.

robp · 16-04-2015 9:32pm

magicmushroom wrote: »

I'm English and I live in Ireland - there is little difference to be honest.

I live in Germany and people here are mostly the same as home. Personalities don't vary across national borders but how people imagine their identity and customs does. And Irish perceive their identity hugely differently to English or Germans.

magicmushroom · 17-04-2015 10:05am

InTheTrees wrote: »

Isnt that because Catholics dont like to leave a body unattended between death and burial so the funerals tend to be pretty quick just for logistical reasons, whereas the protestants dont really care so the body can left on ice for awhile to allow for arrangements.

I think thats the reason but I could be wrong.

I'm not really sure of the reasons to be honest.

I like the way that here, the family stay with the body until burial, that is really nice and I would have liked to have that option for relatives of mine that have passed away at home.
On the other hand, when we cremated my dear Granddad last year who I was extremely close with and heartbroken by his death, I really needed that 2 weeks to come to terms with him being gone - having his funeral only a couple of days after this death would have been far too soon for me, I wouldn't have been ready to say goodbye. If that makes sense.

dubhthach · 17-04-2015 10:18am

robp wrote: »

I live in Germany and people here are mostly the same as home. Personalities don't vary across national borders but how people imagine their identity and customs does. And Irish perceive their identity hugely differently to English or Germans.

Same went for Dutch and Swedes in my experience, in general there's very little in difference across most Europeans. As for the Anglosphere I do get the impression that if anything Ireland is moving more in the direction of the US than Britain. This is evident in how "Dortspeak" shares [ɻ] when it comes to realisation of r with american-english. (In areas that were more recently Irish speaking you still hear Irish [ɾ])

Than again people have been complaining about americanisation of Hiberno-english since at least when Dallas was on the tv!

whisky_galore · 17-04-2015 10:42am

dubhthach wrote: »

if anything Ireland is moving more in the direction of the US than Britain.

We were always closer to Boston than Berlin.

dubhthach · 17-04-2015 11:02am

whisky_galore wrote: »

We were always closer to Boston than Berlin.

Sure but especially with younger generations it's case of been closer to LA than London when it comes to things such as popular culture etc. (Uptalk and dreaded "Vocal Fry" among younger women for example)

whisky_galore · 17-04-2015 11:10am

dubhthach wrote: »

Sure but especially with younger generations it's case of been closer to LA than London when it comes to things such as popular culture etc. (Uptalk and dreaded "Vocal Fry" among younger women for example)

Suppose that could be classed as some sort of fad that will disappear in time to be replaced by something else rather than a de facto cultural difference.

dubhthach · 17-04-2015 11:19am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Suppose that could be classed as some sort of fad that will disappear in time to be replaced by something else rather than a de facto cultural difference.

Well it's linguistic convergence, you have to remember that traditionally Hiberno-English has an Irish substrate. This has led to non-standard features due to influence of Irish. However these were always regarded as "bad english" (thence the fact Dublin use to have the highest number of elecution schools in than UK), so over time Hiberno-English has converged with "standard english". Now given that "General American" has prestige due to media/popular culture it's not surprising that we are seeing convergence with it, it helps that American English of course is Rhotic like Hiberno-English, whereas standard English has become non-Rhotic (as influenced by RP).

In another 50 years or so "Hiberno-English" as we knew it will be dead and we'll all just speaking a globalised "Mid-Atlantic" speak with perhaps some unique words thrown into mix.

tac foley · 17-04-2015 11:33am

dubhthach wrote: »

In another 50 years or so "Hiberno-English" as we knew it will be dead and we'll all just speaking a globalised "Mid-Atlantic" speak with perhaps some unique words thrown into mix.

لا أعتقد أن كنت على صواب في هذا الرأي.
هذه هي اللغة التي تكون كلها خمسين عاما يتحدث في المستقبل.

تاك

looksee · 17-04-2015 11:49am

The business about funerals is more to do with the size of the population. No matter how enthusiastic you might be to bury someone, if you can't get the paperwork done and organise a 'slot' in the undertaker's diary, you are not going to get someone underground/cremated - not in less than a week or 10 days anyway.

As to the friendliness of the Irish, yes, it is true that people will acknowledge you in the street and be friendly in the pub, but unless you are related you do not get invited into other people's houses. If you have long time friends from college or school this is also a basis for friendship, but if you are a blow-in, tough. I am amused by the american tourists who come and are under the impression that they have made friends at the b&bs they stay in...no, you are a paying customer, you paid for friendliness and a pleasant smile. Which is great for the tourist industry- and the b&b's have a return customer, but that is all.

Fratton Fred · 17-04-2015 11:49am

dubhthach wrote: »

Sure but especially with younger generations it's case of been closer to LA than London when it comes to things such as popular culture etc. (Uptalk and dreaded "Vocal Fry" among younger women for example)

I believe that is the case in both countries.

whisky_galore · 17-04-2015 11:53am

looksee wrote: »

I am amused by the american tourists who come and are under the impression that they have made friends at the b&bs they stay in...no, you are a paying customer, you paid for friendliness and a pleasant smile. Which is great for the tourist industry- and the b&b's have a return customer, but that is all.

The tourists don't get to see the flip side of Irish nature, the begrudgery and backstabbing.

looksee · 17-04-2015 1:53pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

The tourists don't get to see the flip side of Irish nature, the begrudgery and backstabbing.

I wouldn't go that far, but I do wonder why the constant need (see frequent threads in AH) in a few people to compare Irish and Brits, and reassure themselves that the Irish are cuddly. Some are, some aren't, same as everywhere.

As to the difference between English and Irish, well which English are you talking about? The city people or the country people? North or south, any particular class? Are we going to select anecdotal individuals to prove a point on either side, or is there a way of generalising about an entire country? Do the vast numbers of people of non Anglo-Saxon/Celtic/other ancient groupings count as English for this survey?

And why English, would it not be more interesting to compare, say, the Welsh and the Irish, or the Scots and the Irish?

My experience here is we seem to be a friendlier and mix more with locals and learn the language more...in general.

What does this mean? Where is 'here', which locals, which language?

Can we have a bit more specific question so a reasonably (semi)academic discussion can be held?

whisky_galore · 17-04-2015 2:26pm

looksee wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far, but I do wonder why the constant need (see frequent threads in AH) in a few people to compare Irish and Brits, and reassure themselves that the Irish are cuddly. Some are, some aren't, same as everywhere.

You answered your own question there. There is a segment of the population who constantly feel the need to look over their shoulders at the old enemy and harbour a constant need for reassurance that we are the 'good guys' that the whole world loves, a great bunch of lads. I wonder are the French as insecure and pre-occupied about the Germans, or do Africans whinge about their former colonial masters all of the time?

looksee · 17-04-2015 3:40pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

You answered your own question there. There is a segment of the population who constantly feel the need to look over their shoulders at the old enemy and harbour a constant need for reassurance that we are the 'good guys' that the whole world loves, a great bunch of lads. I wonder are the French as insecure and pre-occupied about the Germans, or do Africans whinge about their former colonial masters all of the time?

Well based on an unscientific survey involving living in two ex-colonies shortly (4 or so years) after independence in both cases, I can tell you no, they don't - or didn't. Huge pride in their independence and enthusiasm to go forward, not a lot of looking back.

Fratton Fred · 18-04-2015 12:14pm

IrishProd wrote: »

Why because some Irish people wear English football jerseys or support non-Irish clubs?

By your logic there is no difference between Lithuanians & Polish people because some wear each other sports jerseys, or French people watching American Netflix programs means there is little difference between Americans and French people, or there is very little difference between English people and Germans because some shop on amazon.gr instead of amazon.uk.....:rolleyes:

Its called 'globalisation'

All neighboring countries have a shared history with another that is normal, it does not mean there is "little difference".

As the op is talking about Spain, no, the average Spaniard will see little or no difference.

Anyone drinking beer to excess, wearing a Man United jersey and swearing in English is instantly considered English.

You can talk about genetics all you like, people aren't more or less friendly because they have more of one gene than another.

mariaalice · 20-04-2015 3:13pm

To me one of the big differences is the attitudes to civic society and public services, in the UK you have people arguing passionately against the sell off council houses, believe in council provided services, are extremely proud of the NHS, here you get the if its free it will be abused attitude and often a grudging attitude to the provision of services 'why should my taxs pay for that.

AnLonDubh · 21-04-2015 11:26pm

I don't think the Western European countries are very different from each other in general. At first you can think so due to the language barrier. To be honest there'd be more of a split along rural/urban lines than national ones in my experience.

tac foley · 22-04-2015 10:12am

If you want to really notice 'differences', go to Hungary or Finland - even the Baltic States, but especially Hungary or Finland.

In Hungarian - Ha azt szeretnénk, hogy igazán észre 'különbségeket', menjen Magyarország, Finnország - még a balti államok, de különösen Magyarország, Finnország.

Neither country speaks a language that has any affinity whatosever with either Romance, Germanic or Celtic languages.

At least Ireland and the UK almost share a common language, apart from local linguistic leftovers or intrusions.

tac

Jim2007 · 22-04-2015 4:08pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

We were always closer to Boston than Berlin.

Let's see:
- Healthcare: No
- Death Penalty: No
- Gun Control: No
- Social Welfare: No
- Education: No
- Military: No
- Economic Philosophy: Not anymore

We are much closer to mainland Europe and Berlin, than you think!

who the fug · 22-04-2015 4:11pm

How does this thread relate to history, or is the history forum now the equivalent of the Zoo on politics.ie

whisky_galore · 22-04-2015 4:12pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Let's see:
- Healthcare: No
- Death Penalty: No
- Gun Control: No
- Social Welfare: No
- Education: No
- Military: No
- Economic Philosophy: Not anymore

We are much closer to mainland Europe and Berlin, than you think!

Thank you for your neatly arranged bullet points, but it was obvious I was referring to cultural outlook, not state functions or legal system.

AnLonDubh · 22-04-2015 7:48pm

tac foley wrote: »

If you want to really notice 'differences', go to Hungary or Finland

The differences you've quoted are purely linguistic though. Culturally the Finns are essentially Scandinavian and the Hungarians are very similar to the Austrians.

AnLonDubh · 22-04-2015 7:52pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Thank you for your neatly arranged bullet points, but it was obvious I was referring to cultural outlook, not state functions or legal system.

How is our cultural outlook similar to America, but different to mainland Europe? I'm being genuine here, I don't really see it.

jonniebgood1 · 22-04-2015 8:15pm

who the fug wrote: »

How does this thread relate to history, or is the history forum now the equivalent of the Zoo on politics.ie

The Irish (at least some of them) like to complain about what they have rather than try and improve things themselves.

The quoted post is an example of this- complaining rather than trying to contribute positively!!!
I believe the historical context of this could be taken to be years of not being in control or charge of their systems.

How are the English different from us?

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