Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

Putinovsky · 26-11-2014 4:58pm

Buer wrote: »

Marsh's academy tenure is at an end this season and it will be interesting to see how he goes. With Gopperth likely to depart and Madigan/Sexton away at the RWC, I can see us signing another outhalf in the Berquist mould on a 1 year deal. At this point in time, I would say that it's not out of the question that he won't be at Leinster for too much longer.

Are you suggesting Leinster sign Luke McAllister as a 10/12 cover?

stephen_n · 26-11-2014 4:59pm

Hagz wrote: »

I think it is more a statement on the influence of Jonathan Sexton.

Again, could Joe Schmidt have won a European Trophy without Sexton? Could he have won the 6nations without Sexton?

I've said it before and I have no problem repeating it, Jonathan Sexton has had a far greater influence on Leinster and Ireland's success than Joe Schmidt has.

I would have to disagree with you there I'm afraid, rugby is a team sport, if you were to say Joe Schmidt has had a far greater influence on Johhny Sextons career, then I'd be inclined to agree. Rugby is however a team sport and as such coaches have a far greater sphere of influence. Will Sexton improve Leinster, most certainly he will but will he single handedly turn the fortunes of a directionless team, not a chance in hell. Our attacking play will improve as he can utilize the players outside him better than Goperth or Madigan can but, how you think he will fix the ball retention, basic skills and defensive frailties, I have no idea how you imagine that will come about. It's essentially like saying we are only playing poorly because we don't have a superstar 10.

Also how come Racing aren't winning the French league if he is so influential, he can transcend what's going on with the rest of the team?

Putinovsky · 26-11-2014 5:02pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Also how come Racing aren't winning the French league if he is so influential, he can transcend what's going on with the rest of the team?

Actually a lot of people were saying last season in the media that Sexton pretty much dragged that Racing team to the play offs.

funtime93 · 26-11-2014 5:06pm

Buer wrote: »

Have you seen the size of the Welsh outhalves who came through to senior rugby at a young age?

Patchell is 6'3". Priestland is 6' (and was a running joke when he came on the scene for the first few years). Dan Biggar is 6'2". Marsh was about 12.5 stone when he was 20 years old. Ross Byrne is 6'2" and has started two of the three B&I Cup games this season already.

But the real reason these lads get a bit of game time when they're young is quite simple.

The Welsh regions don't have any A teams for them to play in. It's either the Welsh Principality League or play the odd game at Pro12 level. The provinces have the luxury of A teams to develop these players.

matthew Morgan was arguably even smaller than marsh and still saw game time behind biggar from the age of 19

.ak · 26-11-2014 5:06pm

Quint2010 wrote: »

Why is the Treviso game not relevant? Its the most recent game! He was dire. As for the Munster match-his game management was also dire. He kept just kicking the ball away. In my view Madigan should be starting. If he is good enough to be back up 10 to Sexton for Ireland then surely he is good enough to be starting 10 for Leinster.

Becuase one poor game doesn't equal a poor season, which is what my original point was.

Madigan being the 22 jersey for Ireland doesn't mean anything. Just means he's more versatile than the other options.

Hagz · 26-11-2014 5:11pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Also how come Racing aren't winning the French league if he is so influential, he can transcend what's going on with the rest of the team?

Because as a new player Sexton can't just arrive and start challenging the other senior players and coaches. He has to earn their respect and do his time before he can do that. He's said himself that there have been times where he hasn't seen eye to eye with some of the coaches but that he didn't challenge them because he didn't think he had a right to given the circumstances. The circumstances are different. A lot of his focus would have been directed to settling in to the new environment.There's also the language barrier of course, though not as important.

And I think he is having a huge influence over in Paris isn't he? They made a massive effort to hold on to him and by the sounds of it the coach or owner has been all over him. And it's only his second season. I've spoken very highly of Sexton but I don't think he can arrive at a club and bring them to silverware in his first season. Apart from Leinster, because he has a standing with the club and a history with the players.

Beery Eyed · 26-11-2014 5:12pm

funtime93 wrote: »

Irish teams seem to hold off playing youngsters more than anyone else. Marsh will be 23 in January and still has about 10 mins of senior rugby under his belt. In Wales for example someone like even young Ross Byrne would be in and around the first team certainly playing a few league games here and there yet over here he isn't even first choice for the A's and won't be for another 12-18 months.

That's at least partly due to the Irish provinces being in a better financial position than the Welsh clubs, and several English clubs for that matter. For instance, a Welsh club would have found it a lot harder to justify funding the signing of an experienced backup 10 for a potential upcoming international. When a potential gap in proven quality comes up at an Irish province the money is usually there to plug it with an experienced signing, rather than having to rely on a younger lad who was developed in the province.

Personally I felt, like many others did, that the money spent to sign Gopperth when Sexton left would have been much better invested elsewhere. At the time we had Madigan performing very well & looking like he was ideally placed to kick on & be the starting 10. At that stage I thought he should have been backed to be the main 10, like Jackson was at Ulster. Then we had academy players like Marsh & even Crosbie playing "A" level. While Reid was also seen as a potential option at 10 at that point, albeit he has since shown that his best position is definitely 12.

All in all Gopperth has mostly done a fine job to be fair to him. He is an experienced player with some very good qualities. However, on the balance of things I would rather have taken the risk of relying on the players that we had produced ourselves.

scott1974 · 26-11-2014 5:14pm

Garces and Poite for the back to back games....

Mmmm....this could be interesting!!

http://www.epcrugby.com/officials/index.php?includeref=23162&season=2014-2015&round=3

http://www.epcrugby.com/officials/index.php?includeref=23162&season=2014-2015&round=4

wise7 · 26-11-2014 5:19pm

Beery Eyed wrote: »

That's at least partly due to the Irish provinces being in a better financial position than the Welsh clubs, and several English clubs for that matter. For instance, a Welsh club would have found it a lot harder to justify funding the signing of an experienced backup 10 for a potential upcoming international. When a potential gap in proven quality comes up at an Irish province the money is usually there to plug it with an experienced signing, rather than having to rely on a younger lad who was developed in the province.

Personally I felt, like many others did, that the money spent to sign Gopperth when Sexton left would have been much better invested elsewhere. At the time we had Madigan performing very well & looking like he was ideally placed to kick on & be the starting 10. At that stage I thought he should have been backed to be the main 10, like Jackson was at Ulster. Then we had academy players like Marsh & even Crosbie playing "A" level. While Reid was also seen as a potential option at 10 at that point, albeit he has since shown that his best position is definitely 12.

All in all Gopperth has mostly done a fine job to be fair to him. He is an experienced player with some very good qualities. However, on the balance of things I would rather have taken the risk of relying on the players that we had produced ourselves.

I agree with your closing sentiment. We bemoan the departure of one our greatest ever home produced players and can't wait for his return and yet we continue to stifle the development of home grown young talent and bring in journeymen.

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 5:21pm

Well MOC wants to bring in even more NIQ players.

wise7 · 26-11-2014 5:23pm

otbrugby wrote: »

Well MOC wants to bring in even more NIQ players.

Well maybe we can move to 13 aside rugby league and cut the players wage bill. It would certainly be a more familiar style of rugby for the coach.

stephen_n · 26-11-2014 5:30pm

Hagz wrote: »

Because as a new player Sexton can't just arrive and start challenging the other senior players and coaches. He has to earn their respect and do his time before he can do that. He's said himself that there have been times where he hasn't seen eye to eye with some of the coaches but that he didn't challenge them because he didn't think he had a right to given the circumstances. The circumstances are different. A lot of his focus would have been directed to settling in to the new environment.There's also the language barrier of course, though not as important.

And I think he is having a huge influence over in Paris isn't he? They made a massive effort to hold on to him and by the sounds of it the coach or owner has been all over him. And it's only his second season. I've spoken very highly of Sexton but I don't think he can arrive at a club and bring them to silverware in his first season. Apart from Leinster, because he has a standing with the club and a history with the players.

A big influence and completely changing the way a team is playing are not the same thing. Sexton is arguably the best out half in the world but saying he can completely change the way a team is playing, is both overstating his ability and understating the abilities of the 10's we have. Sexton was the Irish 10 before Joe arrived and didn't stop us disintegrating as a team before the end if Kidneys reign, despite being at the top of his game for Leinster.

molloyjh · 26-11-2014 5:31pm

Buer wrote: »

Indeed but it's going to become quite tedious given he's here for another 18 months at least. It's a non-runner. We may as well complain that we're not going to sign SBW for centre.

Wait, what do you mean we're not signing SBW. Ah that's it. #MOCOut!

awec wrote: »

The fans need to come up with more songs.

I reckon signing "Leinssttteerrr" to the tune of S Club Party by S Club 7 would be up there amongst the best ever sung at the RDS.

Leinsterrrrr, gonna show you howwwww... there ain't no player like a Leinster player...

Madigan's doing his dance,
Reddan has us in a trance,
Heaslips getting down on the floor,
Healy's always offering more...
Want to see Toner sing (on form),
Want to see Kearney doing his thing
We used to have Joe, he had the flow
Get ready everybody 'cos here we go!

Leinstterrrr....

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Showing your taste in music up again awec. Thankfully I actually have no idea what that song sounds like so can't picture the Leinster version of it.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Gawd ak, that's pretty meh.

1. Newland
2. Cronin
3. Tuqiri
4. Douglas
5. McCarthy
6. Ryan
7. Jennings
8. Murphy
9. Durkadurka
10. Molloyjh
11. Justsomebloke
12. Ruggiebear
13. Jacothelad
14. formerligind
15. Teferi

Now that's a team!

I have a mean wrap around too don't ya know!

Buer wrote: »

I'm not saying fans shouldn't voice their concerns at all. It's important that they do. I'm addressing people who are saying that MOC has to be sacked as soon as possible. It's not happening. He won the title, got us out of our HEC pool and is due to do so again this year. It's simply a non-runner.

If people complain saying we're not reaching close to our potential and he should not have his contract renewed then that makes sense and would probably hold more influence with Leinster Rugby. I'm sure any talk of sacking MOC is simply dismissed by those in LR as crazy, lunatic fringe talk.

There's less and less "fringe" about it Buer. I've been steadfastly avoiding calling for his head, and still haven't done so. I do know a few that have and until recently I wouldn't have been overly surprised by who they were. Since Sunday though there's been a significant upturn in the numbers speaking out. And I've been genuinely surprised by some of the people that have.

Regarding the Sexton discussion I think, as usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The Leinster team of 10/11 - 12/13 and the current Irish team wouldn't be what they are without Sexton. But neither would they be what they are without Joe. Sexton is pure class and definitely drags teams up a level by himself. But Joe has a massive impact too. Where we've been lucky is that they both combined, to the point where one without the other almost seems wrong now. Neither would have had the impact they did have without the other.

.ak · 26-11-2014 5:32pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I would have to disagree with you there I'm afraid, rugby is a team sport, if you were to say Joe Schmidt has had a far greater influence on Johhny Sextons career, then I'd be inclined to agree. Rugby is however a team sport and as such coaches have a far greater sphere of influence. Will Sexton improve Leinster, most certainly he will but will he single handedly turn the fortunes of a directionless team, not a chance in hell. Our attacking play will improve as he can utilize the players outside him better than Goperth or Madigan can but, how you think he will fix the ball retention, basic skills and defensive frailties, I have no idea how you imagine that will come about. It's essentially like saying we are only playing poorly because we don't have a superstar 10.

Also how come Racing aren't winning the French league if he is so influential, he can transcend what's going on with the rest of the team?

In fairness have you seen many of his games? He's very influential.

.ak · 26-11-2014 5:33pm

scott1974 wrote: »

Garces and Poite for the back to back games....

Mmmm....this could be interesting!!

http://www.epcrugby.com/officials/index.php?includeref=23162&season=2014-2015&round=3

http://www.epcrugby.com/officials/index.php?includeref=23162&season=2014-2015&round=4

Ugh. That's a pity. I hate sounding like a bemoaner of refs but neither of those two suit us.

CatFromHue · 26-11-2014 5:39pm

Beery Eyed wrote: »

That's at least partly due to the Irish provinces being in a better financial position than the Welsh clubs, and several English clubs for that matter. For instance, a Welsh club would have found it a lot harder to justify funding the signing of an experienced backup 10 for a potential upcoming international. When a potential gap in proven quality comes up at an Irish province the money is usually there to plug it with an experienced signing, rather than having to rely on a younger lad who was developed in the province.

Personally I felt, like many others did, that the money spent to sign Gopperth when Sexton left would have been much better invested elsewhere. At the time we had Madigan performing very well & looking like he was ideally placed to kick on & be the starting 10. At that stage I thought he should have been backed to be the main 10, like Jackson was at Ulster. Then we had academy players like Marsh & even Crosbie playing "A" level. While Reid was also seen as a potential option at 10 at that point, albeit he has since shown that his best position is definitely 12.

All in all Gopperth has mostly done a fine job to be fair to him. He is an experienced player with some very good qualities. However, on the balance of things I would rather have taken the risk of relying on the players that we had produced ourselves.

If we didn't bring in Gopperth, who wouldn't be a big name signing really, we'd be left with only 1 Senior outhalf and some Academy players. For a team wanting to win all the comps their in that's just not enough, especially when you consider Madigan would be away with Ireland.

While Madigan was looking very well before Gopperth was signed you could also see some problems in his game that are still keeping him second choice.

.ak · 26-11-2014 5:41pm

otbrugby wrote: »

Well MOC wants to bring in even more NIQ players.

Absolutely. And I imagine as did Schmidt and Cheika and Dawson. I imagine they've all been at the negotiating table with the IRFU on the matter. They'd be mad not to.

molloyjh · 26-11-2014 5:45pm

.ak wrote: »

Absolutely. And I imagine as did Schmidt and Cheika and Dawson. I imagine they've all been at the negotiating table with the IRFU on the matter. They'd be mad not to.

I do think there's a big difference between going about that behind the scenes and announcing to the media that, effectively, the players we have aren't good enough. What's also disappointing for me is that he made a point of talking about how he was excited to work with the renowned Leinster Academy when he signed, but he's made relatively little use of them since he started. These aren't showstoppers, but combined are a small source of frustration. For all intents and purposes he basically said "Yep can't wait to work with the young up and coming talent. I won't really utilise them though, instead I'd prefer to get in a few foreigners.".

.ak · 26-11-2014 5:47pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I do think there's a big difference between going about that behind the scenes and announcing to the media that, effectively, the players we have aren't good enough. What's also disappointing for me is that he made a point of talking about how he was excited to work with the renowned Leinster Academy when he signed, but he's made relatively little use of them since he started. These aren't showstoppers, but combined are a small source of frustration. For all intents and purposes he basically said "Yep can't wait to work with the young up and coming talent. I won't really utilise them though, instead I'd prefer to get in a few foreigners.".

Yeah. I do think that could be an issue. But atleast MOC is very upfront and honest. We've slated coaches before for giving us riddles instead of answers. But there's no doubt that if a coach could go out and sign 3 or 4 extra really quality NIQ players they absolutely would.

molloyjh · 26-11-2014 5:52pm

.ak wrote: »

Yeah. I do think that could be an issue. But atleast MOC is very upfront and honest. We've slated coaches before for giving us riddles instead of answers. But there's no doubt that if a coach could go out and sign 3 or 4 extra really quality NIQ players they absolutely would.

Again the truth is somewhere in the middle. A coach should be able to give meaningful responses to questions, but that doesn't have to mean outright honesty. I can't imagine if asked we'd hear Axel saying that a certain Munster player is a divisive influence regardless of how true it is. And I can't imagine we'd want him to either. It's not all one way or the other.

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 5:54pm

.ak wrote: »

Absolutely. And I imagine as did Schmidt and Cheika and Dawson. I imagine they've all been at the negotiating table with the IRFU on the matter. They'd be mad not to.

why the rule is 5, he was talking last summer that he wanted 10+
we have absolutely no need for that many NIQ's.. MOC has among the most talented squads in the league.

Theta · 26-11-2014 5:55pm

.ak wrote: »

Did I not ask the question aside from the Treviso game?

Again I was only given the Munster game. Which people will always pick up on due to the interception. The missed kick for the Glasgow game is just an 'odd mistake' category.

But as 'game management' goes, he's fine. And by that terrible cliche I mean his decision making off phase ball. He knows what he wants to do, and he directs those around him well. The main issue is his kicking is poison but in terms of game management is solid. He really doesn't have too many poor games and really no matter how much you lay the facts out people's opinion of him will not change.

I genuinely do not think he does manage the game at all. He certainly doesn't exert the same control as other out halfs do and this is the reason I think after several phases of not making ground Leinster look confused and without direction resulting in stupid passes to players who were not expecting it. I dont think we ever say this when Sexton was around.

Also his play on the ball is very limited, his love of the inside pop is becoming so predictable that many teams almost target it. He has little adventure if the pass he is going to give has any risk associated with it whatsoever and his kicking at the moment is rubbish.

Beery Eyed · 26-11-2014 5:56pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

If we didn't bring in Gopperth, who wouldn't be a big name signing really, we'd be left with only 1 Senior outhalf and some Academy players. For a team wanting to win all the comps their in that's just not enough, especially when you consider Madigan would be away with Ireland.

While Madigan was looking very well before Gopperth was signed you could also see some problems in his game that are still keeping him second choice.

Yes, that was the alternative, but I was happy enough with that option. It wasn't ideal, but I felt that Madigan was in a position to become our starting 10, and I think that the extra responsibility would have benefited him. Instead, we have a situation where Gopperth is favored (mistakenly) & Madigan has been subbing or playing 12/15.

Relying on academy players shouldn't be seen as such a downfall. Very often it leads to a young guy stepping up & becoming a key player. Whereas he might have otherwise languished as a bit part player in his early 20's & then moved on when his academy stint ran out. You get inconsistency with younger guys, but these are all very talented, ambitious young players & I don't think they would have let us down.

And in relation to Marsh being too small. I had a look there & he's the exact same height & weight as Paddy Jackson (178cm & 84kg). Both George Ford (175cm) & Matthew Morgan (172cm) are smaller too, for comparison.

Hagz · 26-11-2014 6:00pm

stephen_n wrote: »

A big influence and completely changing the way a team is playing are not the same thing.

Well from my perspective it is. We will play more effectively when he arrives because of his talent and also because of his ambition and leadership. He lifts the standards in the environment. I also think he will have an effect on the way we play. His abilities are greater than what we have and that allows more scope for MOC and his tactics, and also Sexton brings a lot to the environment in terms of back-line tactics/ideas himself.

Sexton was the Irish 10 before Joe arrived and didn't stop us disintegrating as a team before the end if Kidneys reign, despite being at the top of his game for Leinster.

Well like I already said, I view the national environment differently. It wasn't till Kidney's last season till he finally stuck with Sexton, and during that time the Irish team went through a terrible injury crisis. And as a result of that I don't think he held the same position of power under Kidney as he now has and had under Schmidt. And with the back and forth between himself and ROG, I very much doubt he had the same self-confidence in an Irish shirt that he had in a Leinster shirt at the time.

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 6:03pm

Expecting Sexton to return and all the problems of the MOC era to suddenly improve seems to be a bit much.
The players are being limited by MOC not enabled by him. Some of that is on the players but ultimately MOC is the head coach and must answer for the poor performances.
His gameplan does not suit the players and he is clearly unwilling to adapt it.

molloyjh · 26-11-2014 6:03pm

Theta wrote: »

Also his play on the ball is very limited, his love of the inside pop is becoming so predictable that many teams almost target it. He has little adventure if the pass he is going to give has any risk associated with it whatsoever and his kicking at the moment is rubbish.

The inside ball is a planned move. He can't do it unless there's a support runner hitting the line at the right time. That's all pre-planned stuff and the coaches should have been putting that on ice after the Munster game. It should have been banned after the Wasps game!

I think Gopps is marginally better at managing a game than Mads, but probably only because of his extra experience. They both have similar strengths and weaknesses, which makes me think that Joe had a plan for how he wanted Leinster to play post-Sexton. MOC ended up getting landed with these guys who simply didn't have the ability to play the way he wants them to.

There aren't a huge number of really quality 10's out there at the moment so I'm not sure if we could have gotten anyone better tbh. And the half-backs are a real issue for us at the moment. It isn't all just MOC.

Buer · 26-11-2014 6:48pm

Beery Eyed wrote: »

And in relation to Marsh being too small. I had a look there & he's the exact same height & weight as Paddy Jackson (178cm & 84kg). Both George Ford (175cm) & Matthew Morgan (172cm) are smaller too, for comparison.

With all due respect to Marsh, he is not Paddy Jackson, George Ford or Matthew Morgan.

Those lads are all seriously talented guys who were all full internationals by the time they were Marsh's age. Marsh's talent is not such that it allows such issues to be overlooked.

Tim Robbins · 26-11-2014 6:49pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Rob Henderson? Keith Earls?

Earls is a winger. Henderson developed at Wasps.
I would just say that if you want to develop as a back - you'd be better off at Ulster or Leinster.

Beery Eyed · 26-11-2014 6:56pm

Buer wrote: »

With all due respect to Marsh, he is not Paddy Jackson, George Ford or Matthew Morgan.

Those lads are all seriously talented guys who were all full internationals by the time they were Marsh's age. Marsh's talent is not such that it allows such issues to be overlooked.

I'd agree, but they were just some examples to make the point that his size isn't an issue with him playing pro rugby. He's on the smaller side, but if he continues to develop as a good 10 then he could well make the step up.

Also, it was suggested that only huge young 10's were able to step up to pro level early. Whereas, as you have pointed out, all of the above made their pro & international debuts at a young age despite being on the smaller side.

Clegg · 26-11-2014 7:24pm

Fitz undergoing scans and hopes to be ready for the Quins games.

See him in April so.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

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