Marathon - glycogen management while running

Blue Steel · 29-10-2014 5:39pm #1

I read that taking too many gels can also cause low blood sugar if you don't hydrate properly/enough because the gel is stuck in the stomach and doesn't go into the bloodstream.

Is this true?

Also, I was wondering if there was an alternative to gels (something more natural)?

Context:
At DCM I took gels every 30mn from 1:30 on and still hit the wall from what I could gather.

Clearlier · 29-10-2014 5:46pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

I read that taking too many gels can also cause low blood sugar if you don't hydrate properly/enough because the gel is stuck in the stomach and doesn't go into the bloodstream.

Is this true?

Also, I was wondering if there was an alternative to gels (something more natural)?

Context:
At DCM I took gels every 30mn from 1:30 on and still hit the wall from what I could gather.

Lots of alternatives, try anything you like and see what works for you. Some commonly used ones are sweets such as jelly babies and wine gums, sports drinks and flapjacks.

Edit to add that hitting the wall while taking gels every 30 mins is either a sign that you were a bit depleted when you started the race or as I mentioned in a different post not trained properly to run a marathon. I don't know that you can expect to absorb much more calories than what you get from a gel although you could possibly be getting a high followed by a low which gels can do to some people in which case something less readily absorbed would be advised. Unfortunately you only find these things out by trial and error.

adrian522 · 29-10-2014 5:53pm

How many Gels would people normally go through in a marathon?

I went with one every 5 miles on Monday, seemed to work quite well. (didn't take one at 25, so 4 in all).

I've also heard people take 1 after an hour and then every 30 mins, which to me seems like a lot. (That would equate to 6 with my time from Monday).

Do people take gels and also take the sports drinks offered? I went with Gels but just took water on the course. As I said this seemed to work for me so probably a good idea not to change things too much, just interested in what others do.

T runner · 29-10-2014 6:11pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

I read that taking too many gels can also cause low blood sugar if you don't hydrate properly/enough because the gel is stuck in the stomach and doesn't go into the bloodstream.

Is this true?

Also, I was wondering if there was an alternative to gels (something more natural)?

Context:
At DCM I took gels every 30mn from 1:30 on and still hit the wall from what I could gather.

Gels will get sugar into your liver and thus into your blood i believe. They are of limited help and wont replace depleted glycogen in the legs.

If you hit the wall you may not have done enough long runs relevant to your marathon pace. Or you may have gone out too hard and ran out of juice early.

Sometimes if your long run pace was always significantly slower than your race day pace then unless those long runs were very very long you're in danger of hitting the wall.

Sometimes if you havent done enough running in preparation your legs will go. This isn't hitting the wall as such but it just means your legs didnt have enough muscular endurance.

jonny99 · 30-10-2014 1:05am

My experience: Ive only tried Gels once or twice,running many marathons without gels. Some of these have been difficult, and some a lot easier.
Everything to do with training, and nothing whatsoever to do with gels.Just my opinion.

Enduro · 30-10-2014 2:43pm

You don't need gels at all. They are useful for recovering if you do hit the wall (bonk), but its a better idea not to hit the wall in the first place. The Irish marathon record was set without taking any gels whatsoever. Clearly they're not required.

Blue Steel · 30-10-2014 4:14pm

Enduro wrote: »

You don't need gels at all. They are useful for recovering if you do hit the wall (bonk), but its a better idea not to hit the wall in the first place. The Irish marathon record was set without taking any gels whatsoever. Clearly they're not required.

This is precisely what I'd like to know.

Marathon records are set by people who run in less than 2:30 so they might not be good examples. Can someone who run it in 4h or even 5h do it without gels I wonder.

Clearlier · 30-10-2014 4:52pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

This is precisely what I'd like to know.

Marathon records are set by people who run in less than 2:30 so they might not be good examples. Can someone who run it in 4h or even 5h do it without gels I wonder.

Absolutely but you have to have trained for it and if you have trained for it to that point then you're likely to do it in less than 4 - 5 hours. Some ultra runners will run 4 - 5 hours without taking anything on board and travelling further than the marathon distance though.

martyboy48 · 30-10-2014 4:55pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

This is precisely what I'd like to know.

Marathon records are set by people who run in less than 2:30 so they might not be good examples. Can someone who run it in 4h or even 5h do it without gels I wonder.

Yes, I'm pretty sure they can. I never took gels and Ran DCM 13 in 3:53. My sister did DCM this year in 5:30 without gels, although she did have a few jellys...

jonny99 · 30-10-2014 5:11pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

This is precisely what I'd like to know.

Marathon records are set by people who run in less than 2:30 so they might not be good examples. Can someone who run it in 4h or even 5h do it without gels I wonder.

I reckon your question has been answered twice already.Trust me,Enduro knows what he's talking about, and although I havent a % of his talent, Ive enough marathons behind me to be sure of what I said above.Get the training and pre race diet right and save yourself the sticky fingers:)

Netwerk Errer · 30-10-2014 5:22pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

This is precisely what I'd like to know.

Marathon records are set by people who run in less than 2:30 so they might not be good examples. Can someone who run it in 4h or even 5h do it without gels I wonder.

Believe it or not. Overall time taken to run a marathon doesn't influence glycogen consumption. The very top elites only burn slightly less calories over the marathon than a 4 hour runner. The 2 hour glycogen rule is bogus. Top elites usually hit the wall well before two hours if they're running too fast. The trick to running a marathon without fuel problems is using glycogen sparingly.

The slower you run, the more fat will be used as fuel while glycogen use will drop. The faster you run, the more glycogen you will use compared to fat. This exact same rule applies to elites running 2.02 to someone running 4.30. It's not about time it takes you to run the distance, it's the distance and your personal pace that causes "hitting the wall".

Marathon training is all about teaching your body to burn an improved ratio of fat to glycogen at race pace. That's why long runs are essential and why a lot of runners run miles at marathon pace during training. They do it to be more efficient at race pace.

Enduro · 30-10-2014 5:44pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

This is precisely what I'd like to know.

Marathon records are set by people who run in less than 2:30 so they might not be good examples. Can someone who run it in 4h or even 5h do it without gels I wonder.

I'll give you a personal example from the other extreme then. I ran a 6 day race earlier this year (that's 6 continuous days of racing), clocking up over 800km in that time. I didn't use any gels. In fact they would have been counterproductive in my opinion. I was fat-burning all the way, so had no worries about needing to replinish sugars. In fact I ate hardly anything for most of the race, far far less than I would normally eat in the same timeframe if I wasn't racing!

If you're running for 4-5 hours you should be running in the fat-burn zone. Gels will only disrupt your fat burning "engine".

The key to this, as others have said, is to have put in the right training. AS well as putting in all the miles, and all the quality sessions, that can also be extended to include a focus on training your body to be a more efficient fat-burning machine.

Gels are not a magic food. They are definitely not necessary. In a few extreme emergency cases they can be useful, but even then only after something more fundamental has gone wrong.

Netwerk Errer · 30-10-2014 6:07pm

Enduro wrote: »

If you're running for 4-5 hours you should be running in the fat-burn zone. Gels will only disrupt your fat burning "engine"..

I agree completely with everything else you have said but not this point.

Running a marathon is always a glycogen dominant fuel distance. The ratio of glycogen to fat is around 70/30 when running at your aerobic threshold(actual marathon ability, not marathon goal pace). You don't need gels if you run at this pace or slower. The thing is that we are all amateurs and don't have a very good idea of our AT capabilities. It's easy for us to make pace misjudgements and push that ratio higher than 70% consumption of glycogen.

Gels will help if that misjudgement is small and that's about it. If you go out a lot faster than your AT, you're in trouble no matter how much fuel you take in. That's the reason I take gels. They are a safeguard against slight pace mistakes I may make during a marathon.

Blue Steel · 30-10-2014 6:13pm

Thanks for that. Very helpful!

Another reason why I naively took gels on Monday was that I was afraid of the hunger I normally get at around 11:15am as I normally have lunch around that time.

btw I agree my training was below Marathon requirements, in fact I knew that before I go into the race but I assumed my regular training + willpower would do the trick (I was wrong).

Enduro wrote: »

I'll give you a personal example from the other extreme then. I ran a 6 day race earlier this year (that's 6 continuous days of racing), clocking up over 800km in that time. I didn't use any gels. In fact they would have been counterproductive in my opinion. I was fat-burning all the way, so had no worries about needing to replinish sugars. In fact I ate hardly anything for most of the race, far far less than I would normally eat in the same timeframe if I wasn't racing!

If you're running for 4-5 hours you should be running in the fat-burn zone. Gels will only disrupt your fat burning "engine".

The key to this, as others have said, is to have put in the right training. AS well as putting in all the miles, and all the quality sessions, that can also be extended to include a focus on training your body to be a more efficient fat-burning machine.

Gels are not a magic food. They are definitely not necessary. In a few extreme emergency cases they can be useful, but even then only after something more fundamental has gone wrong.

Netwerk Errer · 30-10-2014 6:58pm

This might help explain the process better. 2.16 marathon runner Sage Canaday.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6AOJvV27HOU

inigo · 04-11-2014 9:56pm

Enduro wrote: »

I was fat-burning all the way, so had no worries about needing to replinish sugars. In fact I ate hardly anything for most of the race, far far less than I would normally eat in the same timeframe if I wasn't racing!

If you're running for 4-5 hours you should be running in the fat-burn zone. Gels will only disrupt your fat burning "engine".

The key to this, as others have said, is to have put in the right training. AS well as putting in all the miles, and all the quality sessions, that can also be extended to include a focus on training your body to be a more efficient fat-burning machine.

This is something I would really like to achieve to some extent at some point in time.

But what are the "right training" and the "quality sessions"? I've done a bit of reading and training by heart rate seems to be the way to go. Only problem is that there are quite a few different ways of defining the fat burning zone (% ranges), and some of them differ greatly. Would the "enduros" here please mind giving beginners like me some pointers as to how they manage to become such fat burning machines? Perhaps even some links or references?

viperlogic · 04-11-2014 10:16pm

Only true way to find your zones is a VO2max test. There are a few places that perform this test around the country. This test is approx €100. It will also find your max HR.

Otherwise you can do your own test with a HRM and by finding a hill and running up it about three times to find your max HR. Have a google on how exactly to do this test. Another is to do a 5K race flat out. Paces/zones can be some what worked out from that result. Again, not exact but not far off.

Me personally, I don't use gels anymore during LSR's or marathons and ran a 2:58 marathon 2 weeks ago. (well I did have one but that was for the caffeine)

inigo · 04-11-2014 10:23pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

Also, I was wondering if there was an alternative to gels (something more natural)?

I managed my long runs and marathon wiht a combination of big meaty dates stuffed with peanut or almond butter and home made sushi rolls stuffed with roasted & salted peanuts :cool:, one of each at half hour intervals. Cheaper than gels. Yummy combination of sweet and savoury with simple and complex carbs, fat, salt and other electrolytes. Only problem was the chewing...:D

inigo · 04-11-2014 10:29pm

viperlogic wrote: »

Otherwise you can do your own test with a HRM and by finding a hill and running up it about three times to find your max HR. Have a google on how exactly to do this test. Another is to do a 5K race flat out. Paces/zones can be some what worked out from that result. Again, not exact but not far off.

Which %s would you use then to define your zones?

viperlogic · 04-11-2014 10:41pm

inigo wrote: »

Which %s would you use then to define your zones?

I use the P&D paces...
Recovery <76%
General Aerobic 70-81%
Long/Medium long 74-84%
Marathon pace 79-88%
Lactate threshold 82-91%
VO2max 93-95%

Again you need to find your max HR doing lab or hill test and not do 220 -age calc

Enduro · 05-11-2014 12:52pm

inigo wrote: »

This is something I would really like to achieve to some extent at some point in time.

But what are the "right training" and the "quality sessions"? I've done a bit of reading and training by heart rate seems to be the way to go. Only problem is that there are quite a few different ways of defining the fat burning zone (% ranges), and some of them differ greatly. Would the "enduros" here please mind giving beginners like me some pointers as to how they manage to become such fat burning machines? Perhaps even some links or references?

Just to add a little on training to develop your fat burning "engine". There are a couple of things you can do, some easier than others. Changing to more healthy diet is an obvious startpoint. There are a lot of differing opinions on what exactly that means. But there are a few things that the vast majority of people would agree on. The most important of these would be to ditch processed foods and east natural foods. So any food which doesn't have a list of ingrediants is generally good... natural food is the ingrediant! Vegtables, fish, meat, fruits (but not too much, and not juices), preferably fresh and home cooked/prepared. Personally, I try to cut down on carbs as much as possible as well.

Eliminate sugar from your diet as much as possible. Cut out as much junk as you can. Gels are very definitely in the junk category here.

Do all your long runs on empty. So don't eat before you head out on a run, and don't eat during the run (No sugary drinks either). This is particularly effective for morning runs, as there should be a long gap since your last food intake. If you find this difficult that's OK. Training is putting your body under stress so that it can adapt. Same here!

Blue Steel · 05-11-2014 2:30pm

viperlogic wrote: »

Only true way to find your zones is a VO2max test. There are a few places that perform this test around the country. This test is approx €100. It will also find your max HR.

Otherwise you can do your own test with a HRM and by finding a hill and running up it about three times to find your max HR. Have a google on how exactly to do this test. Another is to do a 5K race flat out. Paces/zones can be some what worked out from that result. Again, not exact but not far off.

Me personally, I don't use gels anymore during LSR's or marathons and ran a 2:58 marathon 2 weeks ago. (well I did have one but that was for the caffeine)

Can anyone recommend a test centre?

Google found UCD laboratory for me.

viperlogic · 05-11-2014 2:36pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a test centre?

Google found UCD laboratory for me.

If down near Cork then I would recommend Trevor Woods in UCC. His Human Performance Lab is located in the Mardyke Arena complex.

Blue Steel · 05-11-2014 2:36pm

I'm thinking of doing the below found on the net. If anyone think it is no good please let me know.

I have a Garmin 620 with HRM (will it be accurate?)

-- start quote --
1. Be sure you're well rested, well hydrated, and well warmed up.

2. Run hard and fast for 2 to 3 minutes. Jog back to your starting point. Repeat two more times, running a little harder and faster each time. On the third and last repeat, pretend you're running an Olympic race.

3. Check your heart rate during and immediately after the last repeat. The highest number you see is your maximum heart rate (MHR).
-- end quote --

viperlogic · 05-11-2014 2:43pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

I have a Garmin 620 with HRM (will it be accurate?)

Should be, never had issues with mine. Just make sure pads are moist and your top is slightly damp/wet in one area to avoid any possible static issues that can result in spikes. If you have done a good warm up and sweating then shouldn't be an issue. No need to monitor the watch for max HR while running, you can do that afterwards on the watch or Garmin Connect or Strava etc

viperlogic · 05-11-2014 2:49pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

I'm thinking of doing the below found on the net. If anyone think it is no good please let me know.

Some say to do it on a slight incline but not steep enough that your legs give up before your heart does

TFBubendorfer · 05-11-2014 3:19pm

Blue Steel wrote: »

I'm thinking of doing the below found on the net. If anyone think it is no good please let me know.

Sounds familiar. I think I read that nearly 10 years ago when trying to find a way to measure my own max HR.

To be honest I'd be surprised if anyone would manage to get their HR up to their max in so short a time. 3rd repeat of 2-3 mins?

I got my highest ever HR reading at the end of a 5k race with an uphill finish when I was chasing another runner. Was absolutely destroyed afterwards. Come what may, I never managed to run anywhere near as hard in training, no matter how hard I tried.

Then again, try that regime and then add a few beats on top of that and you might get reasonably close to your true HR max. Alternatively, running up a hill very hard a few times might get you a similar reading.

kit3 · 05-11-2014 3:34pm

Enduro wrote: »

Just to add a little on training to develop your fat burning "engine". There are a couple of things you can do, some easier than others. Changing to more healthy diet is an obvious startpoint. There are a lot of differing opinions on what exactly that means. But there are a few things that the vast majority of people would agree on. The most important of these would be to ditch processed foods and east natural foods. So any food which doesn't have a list of ingrediants is generally good... natural food is the ingrediant! Vegtables, fish, meat, fruits (but not too much, and not juices), preferably fresh and home cooked/prepared. Personally, I try to cut down on carbs as much as possible as well.

Eliminate sugar from your diet as much as possible. Cut out as much junk as you can. Gels are very definitely in the junk category here.

Do all your long runs on empty. So don't eat before you head out on a run, and don't eat during the run (No sugary drinks either). This is particularly effective for morning runs, as there should be a long gap since your last food intake. If you find this difficult that's OK. Training is putting your body under stress so that it can adapt. Same here!

Any particular reason why you cut down on carbs ? Also, when you do your long runs on empty how much liquid would you take on & do you take any electrolytes ?

pistol_75 · 05-11-2014 4:11pm

kit3 wrote: »

Any particular reason why you cut down on carbs ? Also, when you do your long runs on empty how much liquid would you take on & do you take any electrolytes ?

Here's my take on it:

1g of Carbs provides around 4 Kcals of energy
1g of Fat provides around 9 Kcals of energy

No matter how much Carbs you eat your body can only store a certain amount of Glycogen. Even on people with very low body fat % there is enough fat to fuel for an awful lot longer.

Your body will look to tap into your glycogen stores first as the easiest source of energy and if you run out, you will bonk or hit the wall as they say which tends to come around the 20 mile mark. This is just your body running out of energy.

If you can train your body to use Fat as an energy source, obviously you will have enough energy to keep going for longer. The higher the % of Fat being burned then the lower the reliance on Glycogen.

You will hear stories of guys running for hours on empty and it having no impact on them, but it is important to note this is something they have built up to over time. They weren't able to just go out and run for 4 hours with no fuel.

To train your body to burn fat as a fuel source, this is normally done where people are running at a lower intensity and it builds up over time, for example someone doing their long runs each week on empty and progressing over time. This will teach the body to switch on to Fat as a source of fuel over time.

Personally I can see the benefits to this, but then you have to factor in that on race day you will be asking your body to perform at a different intensity to your training runs so it will still rely on Glycogen as a form of energy. The difference now though is because you have increased the % of fuel being burned as Fat your body will still be able to perform for longer before the energy runs out. It should also lead to less of a reliance on gels, BUT most people definitely will need to be topping up their sugar levels during a marathon run at a high intensity for them.

If you are going to start doing some training runs on empty at least ensure you take a drink of water before you go out to run. Your kidneys will have been working while you were asleep and most of us wake up in a slightly dehydrated state anyway due to this. It doesn't make sense to be starting your run off slightly dehydrated.

ThePiedPiper · 05-11-2014 4:27pm

I would accept everything Enduro says, but in my own experience, it didn't quite work to perfection for me. There were a few other factors at play, but for my first ten marathons, I only negative split in my 2nd, and was often positive splitting to the tune of 15 minutes. I was clearly running out of gas. Gels would have helped me in those situations, but training was also at fault.

These days, I try and do maybe half my long runs on empty, and totally acknowledge and recognise the value in that. However, I would still use up to 5 gels in a marathon, as I don't go beyond 23 miles in training and the pace of the 23 mile long run is 1:00 min/mile slower than race pace. In my situation where I rarely run over 70 mpw, I think gels (or any source of energy) is nearly essential in race. But, it's only one if a whole package of measures, including 20 milers on empty, that have improved my times substantially.

kit3 · 05-11-2014 4:32pm

That makes sense - I've done a lot of long runs on empty (a lot of the time more down to not being organised than anything else

) but I've used gels in the 3 marathons I've done. I suspect in some ways that they are an emotional crutch to some degree but it works for me .................

RayCun · 05-11-2014 4:39pm

I don't take gels in training, but I take 1 in a half marathon, 4 in a marathon. Maybe a lot of the benefit I feel is placebo effect, I don't know, and it doesn't really matter. I've never felt any ill-effects from taking them, and I only race those distances once or twice a year, so any effect on my overall metabolism is minimal. There's no downside to taking them.

ThePiedPiper · 05-11-2014 4:40pm

I don't know about the emotional side of it, but from a purely scientific point, if you burn approximately 3,000 calories in a race, for some people at least, it makes sense to try and get 400-500 of those replaced over the course of the distance. In an ideal world, I'd prefer to go without, but for me, it's a physical crutch to make up for imperfect training.

ultraman1 · 05-11-2014 7:03pm

Enduro wrote: »

fruits (but not too much, !

How much fruit is too much,....I have dat overweight persons disease called gluttony,and I work in a kitchen,so the temptation is to ate eveeverything.I have to make high calorie biscuits ,cakes,soups etc as it is in a high dependency enviroment .I always snack/stuff my face on fruit ....yesterday I ate at least 8 clemintines,5 plums,6 bannanas,bunch of grapes,....too much

PaulieC · 05-11-2014 8:23pm

ultraman1 wrote: »

How much fruit is too much,....I have dat overweight persons disease called gluttony,and I work in a kitchen,so the temptation is to ate eveeverything.I have to make high calorie biscuits ,cakes,soups etc as it is in a high dependency enviroment .I always snack/stuff my face on fruit ....yesterday I ate at least 8 clemintines,5 plums,6 bannanas,bunch of grapes,....too much

There's a saying that you can't outrun your mouth, but I think it probably doesn't apply to you &#55356;&#57193;

tunguska · 05-11-2014 8:51pm

Yeah I think training on empty is a solution. I did it for the lead up to the marathon last year and it made a significant difference to how I felt in the second half of the race(big negative split). I took 2 gels during the race but to be honest Im not so sure they did anything, I feel like I wouldve had the same result regardless.
I didnt train on empty this year(long story) and it made a difference. I think it works for long races like the marathon but it is a black art and I wouldnt mess around with training in a depleted state for shorter stuff like 5k, 10k, even 10 milers.

kit3 · 05-11-2014 10:31pm

ultraman1 wrote: »

How much fruit is too much,....I have dat overweight persons disease called gluttony,and I work in a kitchen,so the temptation is to ate eveeverything.I have to make high calorie biscuits ,cakes,soups etc as it is in a high dependency enviroment .I always snack/stuff my face on fruit ....yesterday I ate at least 8 clemintines,5 plums,6 bannanas,bunch of grapes,....too much

Hope you were never too far from the loo

sydneybound · 05-11-2014 11:37pm

RayCun wrote: »

I don't take gels in training, but I take 1 in a half marathon, 4 in a marathon. Maybe a lot of the benefit I feel is placebo effect, I don't know, and it doesn't really matter. I've never felt any ill-effects from taking them, and I only race those distances once or twice a year, so any effect on my overall metabolism is minimal. There's no downside to taking them.

At point points would you generally take the four gels?

I did the Paris marathon earlier this year and got fluid intake wrong looking or some pointers.

b.harte · 05-11-2014 11:54pm

I wasn't going to row in on this one as there are far more experienced people than I on here already. (warning - this might be a bit long winded - that'll be the greens)
I have started to switch my diet to a low carb / high fat type diet.
The change was gradual over the last year of so, but for the last 5 weeks I have been giving it more attention.
I decided to do this because I suffered horrible on a few occasions with energy highs and lows during long events, so I wanted more stability for the longer stuff i do, as I would like to go even longer - I don't automatically desire to get faster, only to feel less sh1t during.
The first and most difficult step for me was cutting out wheat / bread, found it really hard but noticed an almost immediate change - less sluggish. I did this about 18mths ago. The hardest thing was I loved my wraps and sambos - switched to making a wrap using large lettuce leaves / steamed cabbage leaves. (not as gack as it sounds).
I used to eat porridge every morning (at 06:30 and again at 10:30 / 11:00) with honey, this would fill me so I would then have a light salad lunch and a normal dinner around 17:30 / 18:00. I was always hungry again later in the evening.
I would usually snack on dried fruits and nut / seeds thinking these were a healthy option.

5 weeks ago I started to look into the type of foods I was eating, bought a digital scales and I now weigh my foods.
I have switched the early porridge for nuts/seeds with a little bit of honey to bind. I weight everything and record it (like this)

All nutrient data from:Nutrient DB

I replaced the 2nd porridge fix with boiled eggs and sliced or grilled tomatoes.

My plan is to try to keep the FAT:CARBS in a 2:1 ratio and eat more protein- no science behind this, other than it's easier to plan meals and select foods with this as a guide.
Total Kcal intake target is 1700-2000 a day depending on training load, I will eat on demand to satisfy my energy requirements, but try to spread the intake of 4 meals 300/300/600/600 with my last meal no later than 18:30 - no science, just suits wiht family life.
Full Fat local Milk and Proper local Butter

For the first 2 weeks I has weight loss (not the aim) after that my weight started to come back up and I am back to starting weight and maintaining it.
My initial impressions are mixed.
This diet / food choice is not easy to follow - I'm tired of eating nuts and I miss my fruit.:(
Planning a dinner for myself and Mrs B.Harte while considering the kids is a hassle, most days there will be 2 dinners and the stuff the kids eat look tempting.
On the plus side, I am now eating more fresh veg and salads and making my own dressing, soy-honey, lemon & vinegar are now staples.
The range of salads that I previously ignored is fantastic.
Fresh veg is the way to go.
Kale frozen and crushed then defrosted in water is nice with a light soy dressing.

Anyway, initially my energy levels dropped I was shattered by 16:30 and only after eating dinner did I feel normal again, but I had masses of energy later in the evening / night, which is handy for running after the kids go to bed.
It took about 3.5 weeks to stabilise but now I feel that I am more consistent during working hours, and I feel more alert, but this might be down to having a busy and interesting workload at the minute. I no longer get a slump at 16:30, but I still have energy late in the day.
I am sleeping better overall and wake up less tired - if that makes sense.
My running doesn't feel any different, but this is my winter project so only time will tell.

If I'm honest I think a lot of these type of diets are BS - hype - agendised etc. I'm a sceptic but I can see some merit it this for me at the minute - it may not suit everyone.
Also going back to the topic, I haven't used a gel in years - I believe that the only benefit of a large inrush of sugar is if you are going hard enough to use it instantly - ie at high heart rate, for the type of running I am interested in I rarely get my heart rate into that range.
I usually do my long runs on SAT/SUN on empty and have a monster feed afterwards - again mostly as everyone is up when I get back.

I think a sensible approach to any diet is a good thing, but even an agenda laden HF/LC / Palea etc diet is less harmful than the advertising that convinces people that you "must / need" to take gels and "Energy" drinks during exercise, it frightens me when I see so many people consuming them.

Sorry for the ramble.

RayCun · 06-11-2014 7:47am

sydneybound wrote: »

At point points would you generally take the four gels?

I did the Paris marathon earlier this year and got fluid intake wrong looking or some pointers.

6, 12, 18, 21

sydneybound · 06-11-2014 9:55am

RayCun wrote: »

6, 12, 18, 21

Good man thanks for the reply. Out of a mater of interest how much water did you take on in between the gels and at what mile markers?

I've done two marathons before and another not far away and felt I have ran on empty and refueled too late when I was already tired.

RayCun · 06-11-2014 10:07am

sydneybound wrote: »

Good man thanks for the reply. Out of a mater of interest how much water did you take on in between the gels and at what mile markers?

I generally take a bottle at every station, which is usually about every 3 miles. Only drink a squirt or two, a bit more if I'm washing down a gel. Most of the water is either poured over me or thrown away

sydneybound · 06-11-2014 11:42am

RayCun wrote: »

I generally take a bottle at every station, which is usually about every 3 miles. Only drink a squirt or two, a bit more if I'm washing down a gel. Most of the water is either poured over me or thrown away

Jeez I know every person does these things differently but I feel I really undrank during previous marathons. I think I tried to have water at every second stand but didn't even stick to it.

RayCun · 06-11-2014 11:46am

sydneybound wrote: »

Jeez I know every person does these things differently but I feel I really undrank during previous marathons. I think I tried to have water at every second stand but didn't even stick to it.

I think most people overestimate how much water they need to drink in a race. It depends on your training, and how much you drink usually and in the days before the race, and how hot the day is... but I don't think you need to drink a lot.

viperlogic · 06-11-2014 11:48am

sydneybound wrote: »

Jeez I know every person does these things differently but I feel I really undrank during previous marathons. I think I tried to have water at every second stand but didn't even stick to it.

Everyone is different and every race is different due to conditions on the day. At Amsterdam marathon I took two cups at every station and it still wasn't enough, was very humid that day, around 95%. Typically on a warm day, I sweat about 800ml an hour when going at MP, so I try to replace as much as I can but not to the point I need to do a toilet break.

RayCun · 06-11-2014 11:50am

sydneybound wrote: »

I did the Paris marathon earlier this year and got fluid intake wrong looking or some pointers.

from your race report it looks like you went out too fast, why do you think fluid intake was the problem?

sydneybound · 06-11-2014 12:22pm

Yes I certainly did go out too quick! I always get carried away at the start of a marathon with all the excitement. Will try on work on that one.

It's just that I feel I didn't take on enough fluids until it was too late in Paris. It was a hot day and I was skipping stations for fun until late into the race when I was really struggling. I feel when I did finally take on fluid it was far too late and in big gulps rather than small amounts but regularly.

viperlogic · 06-11-2014 12:27pm

If cups are being provided rather than bottles then I would recommend walking each water station otherwise with cups it will all go up your nose or over you face unless you have practiced and mastered the drinking from cup while running technique.

RayCun · 06-11-2014 1:22pm

sydneybound wrote: »

It's just that I feel I didn't take on enough fluids until it was too late in Paris. It was a hot day and I was skipping stations for fun until late into the race when I was really struggling. I feel when I did finally take on fluid it was far too late and in big gulps rather than small amounts but regularly.

well, I wonder why you are fixating on the fluid intake side. You did two things wrong in the first half of the race -
a) you went too fast
b) you skipped water stations

Which do you think had a bigger effect on your race performance?
Why do you think that?

Clearlier · 06-11-2014 3:29pm

sydneybound wrote: »

Good man thanks for the reply. Out of a mater of interest how much water did you take on in between the gels and at what mile markers?

I've done two marathons before and another not far away and felt I have ran on empty and refueled too late when I was already tired.

Gels kick in very quickly. I've bonked twice, the first time was in a marathon - I got an instant boost and then 5 - 10 mins later was feeling normal again and the second time was on a long run. A friend I was running with gave me a small flapjack which kicked in after about 5 minutes.

Fueling too late in a marathon isn't going to have a huge impact on your time unless you're pushing your limits - most of us aren't even close. I'd consider looking elsewhere as to the source of any problems in those races.

Coach Ed · 06-11-2014 6:15pm

Hi Guys, a few points, please take these as some basic pointers from a professional & in the spirit they are meant - to stop you all from falling into some really basic holes which can ruin your love of running & life in general:

- Drop the Gels. Now. Don’t buy another one. You do not need them if you do the proper training the race rightly deserves, especially if you want to be healthy afterwards. Learn you race craft, learn to listen to your body, it knows best & tries to tell you what it needs all day every day listen to it, ignore it at your peril.

- To become a fat burning machine, not a fat storing machine, you first need to turn it on and use it. How? Well stop using you Carb engine first. How do I do that? Drastically reduce you Carb intake today. Everything, rice, bread, spuds, pasta, biscuits, drop the lot. Once you break the habit (give it the month at least) it will have a massive impact on your training and lifestyle in general - Sleep quality, speed of recovery, etc. Your body does not actually need Carbs to function; it can function very well on just Fat & Protein, both of which are essential for all tissue repairs. Carbs do have their place, but only when you have earned them after a training run, especially long runs. You already carry around enough fat to fuel 100+ hours of running at a moderate pace.
(Me: I have, say, 15% bodyfat 12750g, that’s 114750Kcals, if an hours run burns 750kcal/h, that’s 153 hours of fuel)

- Get a coach, seriously, don’t be that guy who reads the net and thinks he can cut corners/cheat and get away with it. Just don’t.

- Learn your craft as a runner.
To get good enough to run the distance, you need to Learn the skills of running:
If you are running for an hour you will/should be making over 10,000 foot strikes. Think of the toll that will take if you are doing it wrong, fancy runners will only put off the inevitability of injury. We are the only animal made for running on two limbs for long distances. Take the trouble to improve your skill level. If you think you don’t need to learn how to run, ask someone to video you as you run past them with your or their phone. Most are shocked at what you see, not the white Kenyan you thought, but some god awful head chaser.
Be strong mobile & strong enough to run effortlessly:
Most who run the marathon are just not strong enough, just look at the state of majority of the runners after DCM, completely hobbled. There is no excuse for that. Get up, move your feet hip distance apart and bring your butt down to you heels, why keeping your heels on the ground. Don’t bang your head when you fall backwards onto your back. If you cannot fold yourself into a full squat and be comfortable while down there you have a movement issue which needs to be worked on. Go join a gymnastics club or weightlifting club to learn to move properly and comfortably.

Then & only then, you can start thinking about adding the mileage to your training for your next marathon. When you do stick to the 80/20 split between Aerobic/Anaerobic work. Don’t know what is what, get a cheap HR monitor (€30 in Argos) and watch you HR. You don’t need to do a Vo2 test to find out all of your training Zones. Google karvonen method or the Maffettone Test to find out your approx zones. Over time you will need the HR less and less as you learn to listen to your body and understand what it is saying. It takes time, a lot of time on your feet and can’t really be rushed as there is a bit of trial and error built in. Back to do you want to cheat yourself or do you want to learn your craft properly?
Which marathon will you be ready for if you do all of the changes I have listed here? Well lets just say DCM 2016 will be doable, but only with extensive work & commitment starting now.

Please, don’t be one of those guys. Learn your craft, it’s a journey well worth travelling.

If anyone wants direction, give me a shout, I will point you in the right direction.
If anyone who thinks I’m full of BS, I’ll show you my references if you show me yours.

Ed

Marathon - glycogen management while running

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