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Bertie the champion of the world

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Comments

  • #52
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Liam Byrne and wicklowwonder......give it a rest, lads.


  • #53
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Right time to move from law and order issues and Ahern and to look at his leadership abilities.
    I suggest this is definitely one of his weaker areas and has led to an erosion of the principle of Collective Responsibility.
    A specific example of this is the manner in which it became acceptable for both FF Tds and Ministers to oppose in their own constituencies Government policies. E.g, in Cork Minister Michael Martin and TD Michael Mcgrath were objectors to the planning application for Co Located hospital in the Grounds of Cork University Hospital - Senator Boyle also opposed it.
    Co Located Hospitals are a Government policy and one that was endorsed by the electorate given that it was on the FF programme for Government prior to the last election.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2008/0923/1222105120939.html
    The list of objectors to the project also included two Fianna Fáil TDs, Minister for Enterprise Micheál Martin and Michael McGrath, who said they were objecting because local infrastructure would not be able to cope. Mr Martin said the project wasn’t sustainable on the Wilton campus.


  • #54
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    There are those who want to polarise this argument into a 'You love him' or 'You hate him' type discussion and where I have commented elsewhere on Bertie Aherne (and on Fianna Fail) I've been attacked as if I believe the man can do (and did) no wrong. Sure the effort to polarise is even evident in the title of this thread.

    I don't believe that Bertie Aherne is 'the champion of the world' and I don't believe he can do no wrong but equally I don't believe that he is the devil incarnate. What I do believe is that he is one of the strongest leaders this country has known albeit with limitations . .

    Under Bertie Ahernes leadership we peaked as a nation.

    Economy . . I left a rather depressed Ireland in 1996. . I was a science graduate working in a petrol station . . I couldn't get a decent job, and had no prospects of ever moving out of my parents house and buying a house of my own. Five years later, I returned to a well paid job in the pharmaceutical sector (a sector that blossomed under Aherne's leadership and continues to contribute hugely to the Irish economy) and I bought my first house.

    By 2004 we were rated as the number 1 country in terms of quality of life (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/18/population.ireland) and in the same year we were the 4th richest country in the world on the basis of per capita income levels. In 2009 we were still the 8th richest country in the world, ahead of the UK (20th) and Germany (22nd), second in the EU to Luxemburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita). . During the noughties we had almost full employment in the state for the first time ever and had net immigration. . . Our growth has been undermined in part because it was based on an unsustainable construction bubble but also in part because of a global economic crisis, triggered by a crash in the US property market and banking sector.

    As I said before, I recognise that Aherne had limitations. He could have done more to control the growth in the property market and insulated us more from the effects of the global crisis. . . We would still be in the same place that we are today but we would have fallen from a lower height. But the fact that we fell shouldn't take from the fact that we reached the dizzying heights. .

    There are lots of people on here who argue that FF drove the economy for their own good and that we wouldn't have had similar problems under a FG led government. . . You should take a look at this document (http://www.finegael.ie/news/PrintNews.cfm?NewsID=31415) produced by both FG and Labour in 2007. In it, they recommend reducing stamp duty (an action that would have inflated the property market even more), increasing government expenditure (would have given us an even bigger deficit than we have today) and lowering taxes . . Interstingly, they also state "Our real and nominal growth forecasts for 2007-09 are identical to those by the Department of Finance". Bertie Aherne didn't have a protective enough eye on the future but his policies were not fundamentally different to those of all within the opposition. We as a nation didn't have a close enough eye on the future.

    Northern Ireland. . . I find it difficult to see how people on here can refuse to recognise Bertie Aherne's role in the Northern Ireland peace process. . . In my view, this process would not have been successful but for the actions of 5 men . . Hume, Adams, Trimble, Blair and Aherne and all 5 deserve recognition for the commitment and effort they put in to remove the gun from Irish politics for ever. Bertie Aherne spent literally hundreds of hours talking with unionists, republicans and his counterpart Tony Blair which culminated in the signing of the good friday agreement and proper lasting peace on this our islands. When he signed the good friday agreement in Stormont he was still wearing the black tie he had worn to his mothers funeral only hours early. His and their actions and commitment in the late 90's and early noughties certainly saved many lives and regardless of what else he may have done it is wrong to steal him of this legacy . .

    And, btw, to compare the Northern Ireland war that waged for thirty-odd years with gangland murders South of the Border is just foolish and really not worthy of debate here.

    Corruption . . Was Bertie Aherne corrupt ? I found what I think is a reasonable definition of corruption here (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/corruption). I accept that many of his personal financial transactions seem unusual but the critical piece for me, as debated on other threads is that there is no really clear evidence that he received money in exchange for political (or other) favours. . He also doesn't give the appearance of a man living with the trappings of wealth (http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00177/leaders2_177301t.jpg) . . He accepted gifts and dig-outs for sure and that may have been an error of judgement but without clear evidence that such gifts were influencing his decision making (or such a finding from the tribunal) I will be slow to declare him to be corrupt.

    Leadership . . I find it odd that anymore uses the fact that ministers were allowed to have a mind of their own and at times go against government policy to be evidence of a lack of leadership. Bertie Aherne kept different coalition partnerships together for over a decade, returned his party to government three times in succession, played a key role in the European Union and was fundamental in the NI peace process. His leadership skills for me are without question.


  • #55
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Economy . . I left a rather depressed Ireland in 1996. . I was a science graduate working in a petrol station . . I couldn't get a decent job, and had no prospects of ever moving out of my parents house and buying a house of my own. Five years later, I returned to a well paid job in the pharmaceutical sector (a sector that blossomed under Aherne's leadership and continues to contribute hugely to the Irish economy) and I bought my first house.
    Bertie didn't do that, you did. Irrespective of if the economy was up or down, you took decisions based on work availability factors. Who is to say that if the job market at that stage stayed constantly bad that you might have also emigrated? You made the decisions - you were the decided of your own fate/direction according to the state of your social and economic environment.
    You should fully congratulate yourself first for that - not someone else.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    As I said before, I recognise that Aherne had limitations. He could have done more to control the growth in the property market and insulated us more from the effects of the global crisis. . . We would still be in the same place that we are today but we would have fallen from a lower height. But the fact that we fell shouldn't take from the fact that we reached the dizzying heights.

    Frankly, that is one of the shortest excuses for Bertie and his years I have come across.
    Canada at the same period of our Celtic Tiger period was going thru the same thing.
    HOWEVER they did the things that Bertie DIDN'T - and we're talking over a long period of years here so that lessons could have been seen, listened to and copied at the very bloomin' least with all the junkets our minister was constantly on.

    Canada fortified its tax laws, took the precaution idea that "nothing lasts for ever" and diversified its sources of incoming revenue stream, tightened its monetary laws (including tax and its loop-holes), heavily invested in its industries and its support base. The Canadians further tighter regulated its banking industry AND actually used those stricter regulations (with the necessary legal teeth) and enforced them. They held everyone accountable for their daily actions. They put away something like 15 percent of the revenue they took in, for a "rainy day".
    The result: the world went belly up! Canada didn't however! Not ONE bank has collapsed - not one bank has had to be bailed out. Industry in Canada is still on solid ground, in fact their car industry alone now is better than the whole of America! They had the savings to immediately inject it where any leaks might occur, they moved some government savings to other areas and took even further precautionary investigative steps to seek and close possible forth coming problems.
    They overhauled their health bodies and streamlined its running. Its now the second best in the world apparently after France.

    What did Ireland do instead of doing some of the above?
    * With Bertie barking mundane orders word went out from his offices "Spend, spend, spend..."
    ..and NOTHING else was done!
    * No precautions.
    * No tighter laws were enforced - in fact when it comes to land zoning alone (just one simple example) it seemed it was a free for fcuking all and it was made up as it went along.
    - By the way go actually read the book "The Druncondra Mafia" about this alone as well as the other corruptive practises done under Bertie! we are not just talking about small schite done here (for decades) for fculks sake!
    It was before the 15th of June 2007 that quote:
    ...Trevor Sargent, the Greens' leader, had said that he would resign rather than keep Mr Ahern in office, having denounced Fianna Fail as a party of "bad planning, corruption and bad standards". SOURCE
    More convenient short memories eh!

    But to get back on point, there was:

    * No PROPER establishing or even re-establishing a proper health service and thats just one government department area - there are loads in the same boat!

    The cock-ups go on and on and on. The non-actions done go on and on and on. The "looking after the boys" went/goes on and on and on...
    Under Bertie it was a free for fcukling all! :mad:

    ...but we can breeze over all that and just say he had limitations. He was running a country for flips sake. Thats 4 MILLION+ people and lives he was fcuking around with. "Limitations" my arse! :mad:
    ...his policies were not fundamentally different to those of all within the opposition.
    He had done so many ruddy deals to stay in power (jeasus, even getting the Greens to back the devil they saw him as just 3 years before!!!) we never got the chance to find out!
    - and even if the opposition had the same policies, maybe at least they would have enforced them to a tightened legal extent - but again, we will never know now thanks to Berties and his promises and electoral dealings.
    Don't off-load the many fcuk-ups of Bertie on a "might be" possible opposition! Thats a cheap excuse way out.

    Northern Ireland to his credit he helped steer in the right direction. Its his maybe one saving grace. It mentioned that he was one of five that helped the peace process come about - and he did help.
    It should be stated though that although the time he put in to help the process was good, the time that was put in by those on the ground, in local areas, constituencies and committees went on for decades, 24 hours a day and was never non-stop. Sometimes at the very risk of their own lives.
    I (myself) do accept that Bertie played his part, he however was NOT steering the ship of peace, he was another helper on the ship of many.
    As he was THEE head of state - he got to do the curtain calls.

    Corruption? CORRUPTION??? :mad:
    Jeasus - where does one start?
    Well if in order to try and get him off the hook for "corruption" I and others don't need to reach for a dictionary to absolutely define the word within convenient absolute paper written terms.
    I'm not going to go round for round with you on the MANY, MANY areas that have been looked at over the years by tribunals, investigative reporting, European reports and countless other sources.
    The words, speeches, text and examples are ALL out there for the world to see, read and hear - for those that are willing to do that and not lightly breeze them away by reaching for a particular dictionary with its version of a word!
    Go read the reports, the many books WELL researched and written, the Mahon tribunal findings - at least the findings that were allowed top be discovered before Bertie (a man supposedly broke and no bank account but had the states best lawyers, to stop a tribunal going further in their investigations... WHY - what else might have been found? :rolleyes: )
    ...I accept that many of his personal financial transactions seem unusual
    Unusual? LOL
    For a state minister of Finance, a well, WELL experienced and qualified accountant and then head of the state - damn they were downright unusual!
    If I was up to something - just supposing - and was getting money from many sources over many decades, I wouldn't want a traceable bank account either - at least not within Ireland to begin with.
    "Unusual!" - I can only laugh at that wording offered of his actions!
    there is no really clear evidence that he received money in exchange for political (or other) favours...
    Again I refer people to the many findings of the Tribunal and where it was going, to the book written by Michael Clifford and Shane Coleman that spend decades researching and having been allowed to be printed by legal lawyers don't forget, list the many actions that for anyone else, would land themselves behind bars quicker than the catching of the Yorkshire ripper!
    ...and thats just TWO sources!
    ...He also doesn't give the appearance of a man living with the trappings of wealth

    No, he doesn't (not forgetting who he trained under!) and if I was a WELL trained person in making money vanish or look like it was non-existent, I wouldn't be found with the proverbial example of many gold chains around my neck, big cars trailing behind me and lots of expensive homes (except the ones "given" to me of course under strange circumstances).
    I go out of the way to look broke as hell!
    I'd stand in a court and claim to the judge if necessary:
    "Look your honour, I haven't got a farthing - prove it otherwise!"

    As the saying goes "that dog don't hunt!"
    I find it odd that any more uses the fact that ministers were allowed to have a mind of their own and at times go against government policy to be evidence of a lack of leadership.

    Well bugger me but that "government policy" actually turned out to be legal laws in a lot of cases!
    ...but hell, lets over look that too!
    His leadership skills for me are without question.

    Clearly for you there are.
    For others, they (and I) consider that he knew and STILL does) know where the "bodies are buried".
    Charles Haughty supposedly also kept a tight ship by threats and knowing who did what, to whom and what laws were broken.
    I suspect the apple didn't fall far from the tree!

    There are many ways to stay as captain of a ship, his way (and many ways) was highly questionable to say the least.
    From his mess, we and historians will be looking for answers for decades.
    One thing for sure, we won't be looking towards his farce of a book for answers! :rolleyes:


    ...I'm outa here for now - got to go see the real world as it is.


  • #56
    Darsad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Darsad


    Biggins wrote: »
    Northern Ireland to his credit he helped steer in the right direction. Its his maybe one saving grace. It mentioned that he was one of five that helped the peace process come about - and he did help.
    It should be stated though that although the time he put in to help the process was good, the time that was put in by those on the ground, in local areas, constituencies and committees went on for decades, 24 hours a day and was never non-stop. Sometimes at the very risk of their own lives.
    I (myself) do accept that Bertie played his part, he however was NOT steering the ship of peace, he was another helper on the ship of many.
    As he was THEE head of state - he got to do the curtain calls.

    .

    This is the one thing I suppose he will be thanked for but as you said he was the head of state and he was always happy to accept the credit and the pats on the back , he was never shy in telling us all about the late nights and early starts etc . I was always of the opinion as it was happening that he revelled in the international limelight and that to be seen to be pivitol in the North and have this as his Legacy would some day smooth his path to the Park . Thankfully it is highly unlikely that that will happen now especially if Mahon gets to produce his report prior to any Pressie election.


  • #57
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    anymore wrote: »
    Just to lighten the mood a little, lifted this quote from P.ie

    19 Sep 2008, Bertie Ahern:
    "Bank of Ireland shares are € 3.80 today. Now if I meet you here next year, or the year after, do you seriously think Bank of Ireland shares will be € 3.80? I'd go out and buy Bank of Ireland shares . . . that's what I'd do."

    Donie Cassidy, 10 April 2008 on house prices:
    "Now is the right time to buy. I will remind the House, perhaps in 12 or 18 months, when prices have again increased by 25% or 30%

    Ah but shure donie thinks Jeckle and Hyde are collecting phones :rolleyes:
    Check out his Seanad speeches.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    There are those who want to polarise this argument into a 'You love him' or 'You hate him' type discussion and where I have commented elsewhere on Bertie Aherne (and on Fianna Fail) I've been attacked as if I believe the man can do (and did) no wrong. Sure the effort to polarise is even evident in the title of this thread.

    Ah now I never attacked you, I just tried to savage you into seeig the error of your ways :D
    Sometimes I believe in the Islamic fundamentalist (or the Bush doctrine) where you are either with us or agin us in which case ...
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    I don't believe that Bertie Aherne is 'the champion of the world' and I don't believe he can do no wrong but equally I don't believe that he is the devil incarnate. What I do believe is that he is one of the strongest leaders this country has known albeit with limitations . .

    Strongest leader who pandered to almost every vested interest group: property speculators, unions, public sector workers.
    A leader (as highlighted by other poster) who actually let his ministers go on solo runs to save face in their own constituency.
    Remember minister in Tipp going against stated health polciy of downgrading Nenagh hospital ?
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Under Bertie Ahernes leadership we peaked as a nation.

    Economy . . I left a rather depressed Ireland in 1996. . I was a science graduate working in a petrol station . . I couldn't get a decent job, and had no prospects of ever moving out of my parents house and buying a house of my own. Five years later, I returned to a well paid job in the pharmaceutical sector (a sector that blossomed under Aherne's leadership and continues to contribute hugely to the Irish economy) and I bought my first house.

    Peaked ?
    We truly peaked circa 2001 and then when on mad binge of construction.
    And the foundations for that peak were laid as far back as 1987 or even 1960s when Sean Leamass and Doncha O'Malley (yes they were ff) opened up education.
    We were lucky in timing, but also had some very hard workers in IDA that meant we attracted in some giants in technology (Microsoft, Intel and then Dell) and indeed (Wyeth, Pfizer, etc).
    He inherited a growing economy.

    What did ahern start doing in 1997 but ramping up public sector employement, that was when the health service growth started.

    Any good ahern did in his first term upto 2001 he more than squandered in his second.
    He actually drove the economy down a one street where everything (public spending, jobs, growth) depended on constrcution which was all being fuelled by cheap credit bubble worldwide.
    With or without that bubble bursting the Irish construction bubble had to give and it was already showing signs of this before Lehmans hit the floor.
    We could never sustain the demand, the price rises were just too large.

    Speaking of buying a house, if anything thanks to ahern you probably paid way over the odds for that property ?
    Or do you see the inflation of house prices out of all proportion a good thing for an economy ?
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    By 2004 we were rated as the number 1 country in terms of quality of life (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/18/population.ireland) and in the same year we were the 4th richest country in the world on the basis of per capita income levels. In 2009 we were still the 8th richest country in the world, ahead of the UK (20th) and Germany (22nd), second in the EU to Luxemburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita). .

    It was all a sham, based on cheap credit pouring into the country and being spread around by the banks.
    Look at the huge levels of personal debt being carried by the Irish population today.

    As for qaulity of life, I always wondered if they ever checked out the long commuttes people had to take because they had to live in commutter towns and villages miels form their workpalces and family circles ?
    Did they ever check out how community organisations were finding it more and more difficult to find volunteers because people didn't havbe the time anymore and sadly we had changed to the American role model of look after no.1 and screw everyone else.
    If you define quality of life as being how much gadets you can buy (again mostly on credit) or how many foriegn breaks you can take (again on credit) then we probably had a good quality of life.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    During the noughties we had almost full employment in the state for the first time ever and had net immigration. . . Our growth has been undermined in part because it was based on an unsustainable construction bubble but also in part because of a global economic crisis, triggered by a crash in the US property market and banking sector.

    You even admit it that the employment was based on unsustainable construction bubble and then of course throw in the usual reference to US subprime crisis.

    Bingo ff mantra. US subprime triggering it....

    Even without US subprime bubble burst and without global recession we were heading for the rocks because of the unsustainable construction bubble.

    We had too many people working in the sector (not just pure construciton, but ancilliary services like retail furniture shops, alarm companies, tile shops, etc) and when the bubble stopped there would be huge loss of employment and tax revenue.

    All the while the bubble forced costs higher (labour, transport, etc) we had lost competitiveness in manufacturing/service provision export earning industries meaning we had less of asustainable employment base to fall back on.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    As I said before, I recognise that Aherne had limitations. He could have done more to control the growth in the property market and insulated us more from the effects of the global crisis. . . We would still be in the same place that we are today but we would have fallen from a lower height. But the fact that we fell shouldn't take from the fact that we reached the dizzying heights. .

    So the bigger the bubble the better because we can always say we reached a huge peak ?
    That is a bit like Leeds United supporters looking back at the year they got to Champion League semi finals.
    Shure wasn't it worth it just for that night ?

    The bigger the bubble the harder and lower the fall, you do know that ?

    Again the dizzying heights were only reached by some on the backs of others and through borrowing.
    Yes you can have a BMW today but you will be paying for it for the next 10 years mentality.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    There are lots of people on here who argue that FF drove the economy for their own good and that we wouldn't have had similar problems under a FG led government. . . You should take a look at this document (http://www.finegael.ie/news/PrintNews.cfm?NewsID=31415) produced by both FG and Labour in 2007. In it, they recommend reducing stamp duty (an action that would have inflated the property market even more), increasing government expenditure (would have given us an even bigger deficit than we have today) and lowering taxes . . Interstingly, they also state "Our real and nominal growth forecasts for 2007-09 are identical to those by the Department of Finance". Bertie Aherne didn't have a protective enough eye on the future but his policies were not fundamentally different to those of all within the opposition. We as a nation didn't have a close enough eye on the future.

    Did you ever think Kenny and Gilmore mnight use the haughey method of promising no cuts, but increases and when gets into power makes the cuts ?

    Bingo ff mantra. we as a nation are at fault ...
    The vested interests kept talking things up and when anyone (McWilliams, Hobbs, Morgan Kelly, Alan Aherne, Ricahrd Curran) started voicing concern they were shouted down and labelled as whingers and told sod off.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Northern Ireland. . . I find it difficult to see how people on here can refuse to recognise Bertie Aherne's role in the Northern Ireland peace process. . . In my view, this process would not have been successful but for the actions of 5 men . . Hume, Adams, Trimble, Blair and Aherne and all 5 deserve recognition for the commitment and effort they put in to remove the gun from Irish politics for ever. Bertie Aherne spent literally hundreds of hours talking with unionists, republicans and his counterpart Tony Blair which culminated in the signing of the good friday agreement and proper lasting peace on this our islands. When he signed the good friday agreement in Stormont he was still wearing the black tie he had worn to his mothers funeral only hours early. His and their actions and commitment in the late 90's and early noughties certainly saved many lives and regardless of what else he may have done it is wrong to steal him of this legacy . .

    You are actually forgetting a few people including ahern's nemesis in the party, albert reynolds and the likes of dick spring.

    Actually ahern was perfect for this role, he can negogiate until the cows come home and copple together some framework that appears acceptable to everyone.
    He also did it with EU constitution, but that was only passed by governments, not actually voters.

    I believe the parties and groups in NI had reached the point where they knew their positions were untenable, likewise with the British government.
    They all finally decided to talk and lucky we had blair on British side and ahern on irish side.
    Both are perfect for this role.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Corruption . . Was Bertie Aherne corrupt ? I found what I think is a reasonable definition of corruption here (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/corruption). I accept that many of his personal financial transactions seem unusual but the critical piece for me, as debated on other threads is that there is no really clear evidence that he received money in exchange for political (or other) favours. . He also doesn't give the appearance of a man living with the trappings of wealth (http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00177/leaders2_177301t.jpg) . . He accepted gifts and dig-outs for sure and that may have been an error of judgement but without clear evidence that such gifts were influencing his decision making (or such a finding from the tribunal) I will be slow to declare him to be corrupt.

    Actually some gifts were from friends that were appointed to state boards, were they not ?

    He may or may not be corrupt and it is very hard to prove.

    But by God the man is unethical and has been proven to be so.
    The mark of the man was shown in the fact he would allow a loyal servant be gutted and filletted by baristers at the tribunal.
    He should never have allowed that lady be put in that position and tome it just highlights his lack of principles.
    His appointment of ray burke has to also draw questions on the mans ehtics.
    Reynolds had known enough I guess to dumphim but bertie brought him back AFAIK.
    Why would you do that and stadn over someone that had dodgy whiff about him.
    Then he admitted back into the party flynn, against the wishes of many within the party.
    Again why stay so close to someone that was seen as damaging ?

    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Leadership . . I find it odd that anymore uses the fact that ministers were allowed to have a mind of their own and at times go against government policy to be evidence of a lack of leadership. Bertie Aherne kept different coalition partnerships together for over a decade, returned his party to government three times in succession, played a key role in the European Union and was fundamental in the NI peace process. His leadership skills for me are without question.

    He absorbed what was good of the partners and left a husk behind.
    He destoryed the pds (of course with major help from harney and mcdwowell) and he has led to the destruction of the greens.

    A leader to me is someone that makes decisions, sometimes difficult ones and stands for something.
    ahern nevermade a difficult decision like most of his predecessors had to.
    The party got into the habit of firing money at problems, avoiding taking decisons and taking on the vested interest groups.
    All this means the current incumbents have inherited a complete inability to make tough hard decisions and we are thus screwed.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #58
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    T

    Economy . . I left a rather depressed Ireland in 1996. . I was a science graduate working in a petrol station . . I couldn't get a decent job, and had no prospects of ever moving out of my parents house and buying a house of my own.

    You could easily be describing Ireland in 2010.
    A governments job isnt to organise a party, a transient high, a peaking bubble... a governments job is to manage the money in the interests of the future


  • #59
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Darsad wrote: »
    This is the one thing I suppose he will be thanked for but as you said he was the head of state and he was always happy to accept the credit and the pats on the back , he was never shy in telling us all about the late nights and early starts etc . I was always of the opinion as it was happening that he revelled in the international limelight and that to be seen to be pivotal in the North and have this as his Legacy would some day smooth his path to the Park . Thankfully it is highly unlikely that that will happen now especially if Mahon gets to produce his report prior to any Pressie election.

    I didnt like to dwell too much on it myself in discussing the amount of time and energy spent on the Northern issue as opposed to the apparent relative lack of interest and energy spent on dealing with drug related crime down here, but I have often thought that if even a fraction of the international cameras and reporters had been focused on drug related deaths in the Republic, then the attitude of Ahern, and indeed most Irish politicians, to drug crime would have been significantly different.
    Having said that, for anyone who wants to be critical of Ahern's performance within the Republic, it is in fact advantageous to give him full credit and more besides for his role in Northern Ireland. To portray him as an able statesman and performer in relation to Northern Ireland, only highlights his ineptitude and worse in relation to his performance in the Republic. Mind you his status as honourable statesman received a severe battering when he reneged on a solemn promise given to the United Nations in relation to Foreign Aid:
    http://www.oxfamireland.org/news/releases/2009/12-09.shtml
    The promise, first made in 1970, was repeated in 2000 when the then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, seeking a UN Security Council seat for Ireland, promised that Ireland would keep the UN promise to spend 0.7% of national income (GNP) in Official Development Assistance (ODA) by 2007. Five years later the government had broken this promise
    Ahern's broken promise didnt come about because of a lack of money - his supporters were proclaiming Ireland to be one of the richest countries in the world at the time; I guess it came about because there were other priorities and the UN doesn't have a vote in Ireland's elections ! Neither do the poor of the third world who were to be the recipients of the aid. But, hey !, that's all in the past right ?


  • #60
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    .
    Under Bertie Ahernes leadership we peaked as a nation.

    Economy . . I left a rather depressed Ireland in 1996. . I was a science graduate working in a petrol station . . I couldn't get a decent job, and had no prospects of ever moving out of my parents house and buying a house of my own. Five years later, I returned to a well paid job in the pharmaceutical sector (a sector that blossomed under Aherne's leadership and continues to contribute hugely to the Irish economy) and I bought my first house.

    I am a little puzzled here, the Ireland of the 1990's I remember was far from a " rather depressed" place. In fact it was, as they say, 'buzzing'.
    Though I suppose the fruits of economic succes were then as they are now scattered unevenly. Haughey's dictum of ' the riding tide lifting all boats' turned out to all too simplistic.
    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/28/bringing-the-income-tax-structure-back-into-sustainable-shape/
    In 1996, before Charlie McCreevy’s first budget, standard and higher rate income taxes were 27 and 48 per cent. Yet we were happy, growing rapidly and in effect “Europe’s Shining Light”.

    The bad years of the 1980's had been truly left behind when Ahern came to power and if credit is to be allocated for the economic growth in Ahern's First term of office, then Charlie McCreey must get the lions share rather than Ahern. But some might say that it was Ahern's leadership skills that led him to appoint McCreevy ! However the team of Ahern and McCreevy have their critics :
    Former TaoiseachGarret FitzGerald has attributed Ireland's dire economic state in 2009, on a series of "calamitous" government policy errors by the then Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy, who between the years of 2000 and 2003, boosted public spending by 48pc while cutting income tax.[9]

    T
    .

    In the interests of balance iIbetter acknowledge that unemployment fell between 1996 and 2000 quite significantly - from about 12 % to 4/5%, I think.


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  • #61
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    anymore wrote: »
    I am a little puzzled here, the Ireland of the 1990's I remember was far from a " rather depressed" place. In fact it was, as they say, 'buzzing'.
    Though I suppose the fruits of economic succes were then as they are now scattered unevenly. Haughey's dictum of ' the riding tide lifting all boats' turned out to all too simplistic.
    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/28/bringing-the-income-tax-structure-back-into-sustainable-shape/
    In 1996, before Charlie McCreevy’s first budget, standard and higher rate income taxes were 27 and 48 per cent. Yet we were happy, growing rapidly and in effect “Europe’s Shining Light”.

    The bad years of the 1980's had been truly left behind when Ahern came to power and if credit is to be allocated for the economic growth in Ahern's First term of office, then Charlie McCreey must get the lions share rather than Ahern. But some might say that it was Ahern's leadership skills that led him to appoint McCreevy ! However the team of Ahern and McCreevy have their critics :
    Former TaoiseachGarret FitzGerald has attributed Ireland's dire economic state in 2009, on a series of "calamitous" government policy errors by the then Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy, who between the years of 2000 and 2003, boosted public spending by 48pc while cutting income tax.[9]

    T
    .

    In the interests of balance iIbetter acknowledge that unemployment fell between 1996 and 2000 quite significantly - from about 12 % to 4/5%, I think.

    The Ireland I knew in 1996 certainly wasn't buzzing. . there were lots of jobs in the IT sector but outside of that very little else . . Unemployment was about the same level that it is today . . During the period I was abroad the country took off and unemployment reached record lows . . throughout the noughties it remained at a 4/5 % level . .


  • #62
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    jmayo wrote: »
    As for qaulity of life, I always wondered if they ever checked out the long commuttes people had to take because they had to live in commutter towns and villages miels form their workpalces and family circles ?
    This is another analysis that I don't quite get. . The revisionists would have you believe that we squandered what we had and made no improvements in infrastructure. . . I live in one of those commuter towns (Celbridge) and every day I travel to the South side of Dublin to work. . When I started this commute in 2001 my journey time was at least an hour, at 6am and often up to 2 hours on the return journey. Today, it takes me 35 minutes each way. From a low starting point in the 90's the infrastructure in Ireland has improved immeasurably.
    jmayo wrote:
    Did they ever check out how community organisations were finding it more and more difficult to find volunteers because people didn't havbe the time anymore and sadly we had changed to the American role model of look after no.1 and screw everyone else.

    This, I entirely agree with and it completely supports the argument I have been making that the Irish people went crazy . . This didn't happen because of Bertie Aherne... It happened because we got a taste of wealth and we liked it (usual caveats re: Liam Byrne etc apply)
    jmayo wrote:
    You even admit it that the employment was based on unsustainable construction bubble and then of course throw in the usual reference to US subprime crisis.

    Bingo ff mantra. US subprime triggering it....

    Even without US subprime bubble burst and without global recession we were heading for the rocks because of the unsustainable construction bubble.
    It's easy to dismiss this as FF mantra but you simply cannot ignore the fact that we operate in a world economy and our economy was severely impacted by major world events. . yes, I accept that the bubble was unsustainable but do you really believe that we would have crashed as hard or as quickly were it not for external forces ?
    jmayo wrote:
    Actually ahern was perfect for this role, he can negogiate until the cows come home and copple together some framework that appears acceptable to everyone.
    He also did it with EU constitution, but that was only passed by governments, not actually voters.
    Yes, he was perfect for that role and deserves credit for it.


  • #63
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    It's easy to dismiss this as FF mantra but you simply cannot ignore the fact that we operate in a world economy and our economy was severely impacted by major world events. . yes, I accept that the bubble was unsustainable but do you really believe that we would have crashed as hard or as quickly were it not for external forces ?

    I'll direct you to Biggins' quote from the IMF/newspaper report he posted earlier
    the Government was attempting to cling to the notion that Ireland had been sucked into the global economic vortex created by the collapse of the American bank, Lehman Brothers. The impression Brian Cowen and others were attempting to manufacture - albeit unsuccessfully - was of little old Ireland as a victim of wretched international economic circumstances. But the IMF didn’t buy that line; in its story we are the authors of our own misfortune. And Bertie Ahern, as Taoiseach for most of the boom period, is the man who must shoulder the lion’s share of the blame.
    No one is blaming them for the whole crash, we (and the IMF) are blaming them for exacerbating the consequences of the global crisis in Ireland.


  • #64
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Laminations wrote: »
    I'll direct you to Biggins' quote from the IMF/newspaper report he posted earlier
    No one is blaming them for the whole crash, we (and the IMF) are blaming them for exacerbating the consequences of the global crisis in Ireland.

    I'm lucky enough to travel quite a bit with my job and over the last year I have been all over Europe, to the US and back several times and to the UK quite a bit. Everywhere I go the media reports are the same . ."Why are we being hit harder than everyone else. . ." Here is an example of what I am talking about http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/28/ilo-global-unemployment-to-soar


  • #65
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    This is another analysis that I don't quite get. . The revisionists would have you believe that we squandered what we had and made no improvements in infrastructure. . . I live in one of those commuter towns (Celbridge) and every day I travel to the South side of Dublin to work. . When I started this commute in 2001 my journey time was at least an hour, at 6am and often up to 2 hours on the return journey. Today, it takes me 35 minutes each way. From a low starting point in the 90's the infrastructure in Ireland has improved immeasurably.

    Yes it was improved but how much was wasted.
    I have had this argument with certain ffers before on this and it appears they condone the huge wastage involved in almost every single infrastructure project just because it did improve things.
    They never look at little thing called value for money, shure wasn't there loads of it anyway. :rolleyes:

    Look at the cost overruns and delays in LUAS.
    Look at how Port Tunnel is still deemed unsafe by international experts.
    Look at how just as we finish M50 we have to start widening at other end.

    Why not get contracts renegotiated and get it done at the start since in 2001 it was obvious it woudl need three lanes and they hadn't even finished or opened the section south of Firhouse ?

    Look at building second bridge at Westlink (prepaid for by commutters by incresing toll before bridge built) and the taxpayer still ends up paying a bloody fortune for the thing.
    Must thank lawlor, flynn, dunlop at al for that.

    BTW have you ever thought that the reason it is now quicker is because there are less people on roads (definetly less trucks, builders etc) since the ar** has fallen out of big chunk of the economy.

    Oh and as a btw 90s infrastructure had already improved from the 80s thanks to EU.
    And the 80s were the real dark days, things had already turned the corner by mid 90s.
    So stop trying to say the country was in sh** in 1996 which happens to be the year before bertie got in. :rolleyes:
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    This, I entirely agree with and it completely supports the argument I have been making that the Irish people went crazy . . This didn't happen because of Bertie Aherne... It happened because we got a taste of wealth and we liked it (usual caveats re: Liam Byrne etc apply)

    Yes lots of Irish people went crazy, but there is a little thing called leadership that the government never exhibited.
    IMHO it is up to the government as guardiants or overseers of the state's finances not to join in the frenzy and even worse whoop the frenzy up, as they surely did by keeping in place tax schemes that only exasberated the construction bubble.
    They kept policies in place that helped primarily their benefactors and friends i.e. bankers, developers, speculators, investors.

    They acted like the publican with a bunch of alcoholics in the bar.
    They made sure the increasingly deer beer kept flowing and never once thought of the long term consequences both for the alcoholics, the beer companies' sales or the long term viability of the pub itself.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    It's easy to dismiss this as FF mantra but you simply cannot ignore the fact that we operate in a world economy and our economy was severely impacted by major world events. . yes, I accept that the bubble was unsustainable but do you really believe that we would have crashed as hard or as quickly were it not for external forces ?

    Yes, he was perfect for that role and deserves credit for it.

    Yes we were well on the way to the bubble bursting.
    Prices were just too high compared to average salary, there was no way that mortgages could keep rising to keep pace (unless went for motgages that you pass onto the kids), and most importantly supply had started to go beyond demand.

    Thus it was obvious that when building slowed there would be consequential job losses, bank losses (although I will admit I never thought the two primary systemic banks were so over exposed) since obvious how exposed Anglo was to this market.
    It was also obvious that we had drastically increased public sector spending based on the transactional taxes from construction.
    Thus we would have problems with current deficit.

    You appear to think that our non construction industry would have been fine but for worldwide recession, but that ignores the point that we had been losing productive enterprises and industry for the last 7/8 years.
    These losses were masked by the numbers working in construciton and retail sectors.

    The credit crunch (all due to American subprime playing fast and loose with derivatives, etc) exasberated the situation, but with or without it we and most definetly our banks were f***ed.

    Our banks were not exposed to subprime, they created their own messes,all thanks to very very poor oversight from inept cooperative and complacent regulatory authorities and indeed dept of finance.

    What I blame ahern for is:
    • gross wastage of funds when he did have them
    • refusal to remove tax incentives that kept bubble going
    • allowing economy to become too depedent on non sustainable construction
    • ramping up public sector spending based on nonsustainable taxes
    • refusing to acknowledge warnings and even insulting the warners as whingers that should top themselves.
    • refusal to take any form of responsibility for anything and instilling this mindset in his underlings
    • pandering to interest groups like unions

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #66
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    I'm lucky enough to travel quite a bit with my job and over the last year I have been all over Europe, to the US and back several times and to the UK quite a bit. Everywhere I go the media reports are the same . ."Why are we being hit harder than everyone else. . ." Here is an example of what I am talking about http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/28/ilo-global-unemployment-to-soar

    Here is a respected international source forbes listing Ireland in the worst hit countries, its a more up to date report from the IMF and the UK is nowhere to be seen.

    The economy is bad in the U.S. and Western Europe, but at least economists stopped saying the Great Depression II is at hand.

    Other countries aren't as lucky. While the International Monetary Fund said Wednesday that much of the world economy "is beginning to pull out of a recession unprecedented in the post-World War II era," the economies of Latvia, Estonia, Iceland, Ireland and Lithuania won't be coming along for the ride, with gross domestic product falling by more than 10%--the standard yardstick for a depression--this year.

    Forbes use a misery index and we rank 5th. Nice ay? The full list is:

    Latvia
    Seychelles
    Estonia
    Iceland
    Ireland
    Venezuela
    Singapore
    Lithunania
    Ukraine
    Jamaica


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  • #67
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    yes, I accept that the bubble was unsustainable but do you really believe that we would have crashed as hard or as quickly were it not for external forces ?

    Do you believe that we would have crashed as hard or as quickly were it not for internal policies ?


  • #68
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    I believe this Ahern guy should be tried and sent to prison for a long time. That's the very least that should be done.

    Nobody resigns or is held to account in this country, it seems. We need to change that cultural tolerance, even support, for this sort of person.


  • #69
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Dionysus wrote: »
    I believe this Ahern guy should be tried and sent to prison for a long time. That's the very least that should be done.

    Nobody resigns or is held to account in this country, it seems. We need to change that cultural tolerance, even support, for this sort of person.

    OK, I understand your views but since we live in a democracy please also identify what crime you are going to charge him with and what evidence you have that he committed criminal offences. .

    Criticising his abilities, motives, morales and ethics is one thing . . accusing him of being a criminal is quite another . . and is quite defamatory.


  • #70
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    If at first you don't succeed....
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Do you believe that we would have crashed as hard or as quickly were it not for internal policies ?


  • #71
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    If at first you don't succeed....

    Apologies . . I assumed yours was a rhetorical question. .

    Yes, with hindsight it is clear that different economic policies might have changed our current situation . . hindsight is an enormously powerful tool . . .


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  • #72
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Apologies . . I assumed yours was a rhetorical question. .

    Yes, with hindsight it is clear that different economic policies might have changed our current situation . . hindsight is an enormously powerful tool . . .

    And apparently the only one ever used in Irish politics (or planning).

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #73
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Some posts in this thread suggest it was government who brought the cash to this country in the last fiftheen years.
    Looking at what has happened in the last three years ,it's clearly not the case.
    Countries like poland,india and eastern europe have lower wages ,so big companies are going east for cheaper labour.
    People tend to forget the investment Europe made in Ireland ,when we got our M50 built years ago. Thats when I see things changed for us in Ireland.

    We use to be better value in the global market ,but fianna fail have destroyed that. They also squandered the chance we had of investing ,everything we got from our slice of the global economy.
    Thats my view of things ...

    Also,
    Both my parents have fell ill in the last twelve months ,down mostly to stress. I can see many more people becoming sicker in this country and unable to pay for private healthcare ,this is the reality of berties political policies.


  • #74
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Apologies . . I assumed yours was a rhetorical question. .

    Yes, with hindsight it is clear that different economic policies might have changed our current situation . . hindsight is an enormously powerful tool . . .

    That old chestnut!

    Foresight and planning are even better, and you're overlooking the fact that the writing was on the wall and top economists were telling Ahern that; to the point where he told them to f**k off and wondered why they were so pessimistic as to not commit suicide.

    But no, Ahern chose to ignore those.

    And, of course, the "hindsight" of him "giving people jobs because they were my friends".......no qualifications required.

    But let's ignore those (maybe I'm talking to myself, because it seems like you have already chosen to do just that).

    But let's assume that "hindsight is an enormously powerful tool" (your words)......how do you make that out, if we're not allowed to use hindsight and track record in order to make educated decisions going forward ?

    It's useless in terms of "we are where we are"
    It's useless in terms of "we can't punish those who are to blame"
    It's useless if we can't use it as criteria when voting in the next election (according to you)

    Unfortunately, the first of those is true, and it's been made worse by Lenihan's panic reflex guarantee of Anglo. But the other 2 apply.

    Ahern should be kicked out of the Dail and not allowed run for his ego-boost role of president. His tax affairs alone should guarantee those, but for some reason the law isn't being applied.


  • #75
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    That old chestnut!

    Foresight and planning are even better, and you're overlooking the fact that the writing was on the wall and top economists were telling Ahern that; to the point where he told them to f**k off and wondered why they were so pessimistic as to not commit suicide.

    But no, Ahern chose to ignore those.

    We have been around this circle before. . At any point in time you will find economists who differ in opinion and most of them will be right at least 50% of the time. The job of government is to make their own decisions. The fact that David McWilliams et al saw it coming means nothing until David McWilliams runs for public office and becomes minister for finance.

    It's also interesting that you cite independent economists. . Of course you can't cite Fine Gael or Labour because as illustrated earlier in this thread they a) agreed with the FF analysis b)wanted to abolish stamp duty and c) wanted to increase public expenditure. . . They made all the same decisions as FF but yet you are ready to punish FF and promote FG/Lab to government . . It's double standards. . I can see why you would take an anti-corruption stance against FF (even though I don't agree with you) but its difficult to understand how you would slate their economic policies and support a party with exactly the same policies ?

    Liam Byrne wrote:
    But let's assume that "hindsight is an enormously powerful tool" (your words)......how do you make that out, if we're not allowed to use hindsight and track record in order to make educated decisions going forward ?
    We are but we must apply hindsight evenly . . As mentioned above, if you are going to hold FF to account for their economic policies then shouldn't you also hold to account other parties who had the same (or worse) policies.


  • #76
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    We are but we must apply hindsight evenly . . As mentioned above, if you are going to hold FF to account for their economic policies then shouldn't you also hold to account other parties who had the same (or worse) policies.

    We can't apply it evenly, because FF told people the ride would continue and they fell for it and voted them in again.

    If all economists are right 50% of the time, why did Ahern use the wrong ones ?

    And whatever about the similar policies, there's no reason to assume that FG would have wasted as much and allowed astronomical over-budgets, no reason to assume that they would have appointed their incompetent friends to key positions, no reason to assume that they would have relied solely on construction and it's tax-take to fund the entire economy (and still manage to skew the market, considering the amount of unwanted and unused units that have suddenly appeared now with NAMA - the law of supply and demand would have suggested that houses should have been cheap if there's oversupply.

    So yes, FG might have spent, but they might have spent wisely and gotten the tax from sustainable sources.

    Unfortunately we will never know.

    And - as "leader" - Ahern takes most of the rap for this.

    He's "guilty" enough on the sole basis of giving jobs to his incompetent mates.


  • #77
    Tommy Bateman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Tommy Bateman


    Bertie was a noble, mighty and integral man, he soared like an eagle, bit like a tiger, inspired like a sunset and was as courageous as a lion. We will never see Bertie's like again, the politicians there now are just in it for their own gain.


  • #78
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Tommy Bateman wrote: »
    Bertie was a noble, mighty and integral man, he soared like an eagle, bit like a tiger, inspired like a sunset and was as courageous as a lion. We will never see Bertie's like again, the politicians there now are just in it for their own gain.

    PMSL


  • #79
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Tommy Bateman wrote: »
    Bertie was a noble, mighty and integral man, he soared like an eagle, bit like a tiger, inspired like a sunset and was as courageous as a lion. We will never see Bertie's like again, the politicians there now are just in it for their own gain.

    As the great man himself once said to Gay mitchell....


    "Your a waffler!"


  • #80
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    And whatever about the similar policies, there's no reason to assume that FG would have wasted as much and allowed astronomical over-budgets, no reason to assume that they would have appointed their incompetent friends to key positions, no reason to assume that they would have relied solely on construction and it's tax-take to fund the entire economy (and still manage to skew the market, considering the amount of unwanted and unused units that have suddenly appeared now with NAMA - the law of supply and demand would have suggested that houses should have been cheap if there's oversupply.

    So yes, FG might have spent, but they might have spent wisely and gotten the tax from sustainable sources.

    Unfortunately we will never know.

    I hope you are right and that we will never know . . Because at this stage an ideologically disjointed FG/Lab coalition government would be a disaster for the country.

    You are absolutely correct in your assertion that we will never know for certain where we would be now if FG/Lab had won the 2007/2002 general elections but we can make a fairly educated guess based on the policies they had put forward. For example it is clear that in 2007 they believed the economy was going to continue to grow and if elected would have cut stamp duty. . that would have served no purpose other than to inflate the bubble a little more for a little longer and make the crash all the more severe. . . We also know that they would have increased public spending which (regardless what they spent it on) would only have increased the size of the deficit that we carry today . . . And we can also be reasonably certain that a partnership that included the Gilmore gang would never have tackled the unions over public sector pay . . .

    The 'We'll never know' argument is weak and you know it. . .


  • #81
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    I hope you are right and that we will never know . . Because at this stage an ideologically disjointed FG/Lab coalition government would be a disaster for the country.

    And - even accepting your worst-case scenario - this would be different from the current disaster which we have, how ?
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    You are absolutely correct in your assertion that we will never know for certain where we would be now if FG/Lab had won the 2007/2002 general elections but we can make a fairly educated guess based on the policies they had put forward. For example it is clear that in 2007 they believed the economy was going to continue to grow and if elected would have cut stamp duty. . that would have served no purpose other than to inflate the bubble a little more for a little longer and make the crash all the more severe. . . We also know that they would have increased public spending which (regardless what they spent it on) would only have increased the size of the deficit that we carry today

    Would they have demanded value for money ? Would they have ensured that projects came in on budget, etc ? Would they have wasted millions on e(never-gonna-work-for)Voting or the egocentric "Bertie Bowl" ?

    And would they have ensured that the Financial Regulator was actually appointed based on ability and credentials rather than being someone's friend, thereby ensuring that the banks weren't allowed free reign to f**k up so spectacularly ?

    Would they have guaranteed the Anglo cesspit without reading the report and demanding open-ness ?

    It's easy to say that they'd have spent, but if it was spent wisely and if the regulations were adhered to, we would only have to deal with the fabled "international downturn" and not the seismic tremor caused by FF and their developer and banker buddies.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    . . . And we can also be reasonably certain that a partnership that included the Gilmore gang would never have tackled the unions over public sector pay . . .

    And that tackle was required because........of Ahern's ridiculous upward-only "benchmarking". I rest my case on this 100%
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    The 'We'll never know' argument is weak and you know it. . .

    LMAO; it might be weak, but it's better than "the shower who led us into this through incompetence and corruption are the best ones to lead us out".

    And unless people take a stand and demand proper governance, "we'll never know" will be the mantra in 2020 as well.

    FF have demolished the economy. Let's not let them repeat that feat.

    Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

    Here's hoping that the country invokes some common sense before we all need to emigrate to somewhere like Canada where being a politician still has honour and duty attached.

    The most hilarious thing about this argument is you making the case that FG were somehow promising what FF were, and that FF tried and failed, and yet you refuse to acknowledge - without a shred of proof - that FG would have done either precisely the same or better.

    If they promised the same and delivered the exact same - minus the corruption and bailouts, and with a properly-regulated banking sector - that alone would have been better.

    So you've undermined your own argument completely.


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  • #82
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    And - even accepting your worst-case scenario - this would be different from the current disaster which we have, how ?

    Because currently, whether you agree with the ones they make or not, the government can make decisions. . . A coalition partnership with FG/LAB will be crippled from the outset by their inherent differences. .
    Liam Byrne wrote:
    Would they have demanded value for money ? Would they have ensured that projects came in on budget, etc ? Would they have wasted millions on e(never-gonna-work-for)Voting or the egocentric "Bertie Bowl" ?

    And would they have ensured that the Financial Regulator was actually appointed based on ability and credentials rather than being someone's friend, thereby ensuring that the banks weren't allowed free reign to f**k up so spectacularly ?

    Would they have guaranteed the Anglo cesspit without reading the report and demanding open-ness ?

    It's easy to say that they'd have spent, but if it was spent wisely and if the regulations were adhered to, we would only have to deal with the fabled "international downturn" and not the seismic tremor caused by FF and their developer and banker buddies.

    Would they have demanded value for money . . point me to where they identified this as an issue. . point me to the plans they had proposed in order to achieve better value for money . . Point me to where they identified prior to 2008 that banking regulation was a problem and one that they were going to address . . ?


    Liam Byrne wrote:
    The most hilarious thing about this argument is you making the case that FG were somehow promising what FF were, and that FF tried and failed, and yet you refuse to acknowledge - without a shred of proof - that FG would have done either precisely the same or better.

    I'm happy to acknowledge that they would have done precisely the same . . or in some cases (eg stamp duty) they would have implemented policies that would have made the situation worse . . They (a FG/Lab coalition) would also have been less well equipped to deal with the crisis when it hit . . .

    You on the other hand have not produced any evidence that they would have done better ? Point me to some serious significant evidence that shows that FG/LAB had a better view of the future and had stronger plans to deal with it ?


  • #83
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Point me to some serious significant evidence that shows that FG/LAB had a better view of the future and had stronger plans to deal with it ?

    Here are a few extracts (taken from another site - by poster Fr. Hank Tree) from the responses by Richard Bruton to every budget speech delivered by Brian Cowen as Minister for Finance. There is plenty of other stuff in the speeches about public sector reform and general waste. But the themehighlighted here is competitiveness, the export industry, the very foundations the Celtic Tiger (1987-2001) was built on, and the impact of the construction bubble.

    Budget 2005
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
    There is a worrying complacency in Government about the enterprise sector. Few people realise that in the past four years, employment in the exposed sector of our economy has been in sharp decline. The rate of job losses has been more than double that of the mid-90s.
    We are facing a tough time in export markets. Since May 2002, export prices have fallen by 15%. Companies trading and competing have had to tighten their costs by 15% but the utilities, stealth taxes, rates and all the other burdens the State puts on those companies have increased by 27%. There is no tightening of belts when it comes to those delivering those services but the companies which have to compete in export markets are feeling the squeeze. Companies are leaving these shores to go to cheaper environments.

    Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 1 December 2004 - Page 4

    Budget 2006
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
    We need to examine what needs to be done to proof ourselves against changing and hardening external environments. No one can have illusions about the change that has happened in the external environment in which Ireland seeks to compete. There is a sharp contrast between the economy Deputy Quinn handed over to Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats in 1997 and the economy the Minister will soon hand back to the rainbow coalition. Superficially, there are many similarities. Employment is increasing rapidly and the budget surplus is healthy, but there are also signs of fragility which cannot be ignored. Approximately 40% of jobs in companies supported by the industrial agencies has been lost since 2000. Many have been replaced but not enough to prevent a sharp decline. Ireland has lost share in its export markets three years in a row. Our export performance is at its worst since 1974 and it is less than a quarter of what is was in the late 1990s.
    The problem is that while the construction sector can absorb people and conceal problems in underlying trading sectors, that cannot go on forever. As a small, open economy, we need to survive on the basis of competitive businesses and that is not happening. Ireland’s enterprise strategy was once the envy of emerging countries but it is feeling the strain and the cracks are showing.

    Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 7 December 2005 - Page 4

    Budget 2007
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
    The Government is increasing spending at a rate 50% faster than the growth of national income. Taxes are rising as a result. This year, the Government is continuing the trend by budgeting to increase spending by 11.5%. To put this in perspective, an ordinary worker will be lucky to obtain an increase of4%. The surplus has been cut back at a time when the economy is experiencing pressure on the prices front and when SSIAs are coming on stream. Spending is increasing far faster than national income and tax revenues and this is posing a threat. Many commentators warned the Government about inflation before the budget was put together and I believe they will now be of the opinion that we are on dangerous ground.
    The Government has doubled its dependence on the construction sector to support its revenue. A total of 25% of every tax euro spent by the Government comes from the construction sector. We are not in a strong position; we are, in fact, in a vulnerable position.
    The real question is whether the Government has done enough to build the capability of the economy to withstand the real pressures under which it is about to come. Those pressures do not merely revolve around the possible slowdown in the housing market; they relate to the relentless march of competition that is coming our way. Our competitiveness has declined in each of the past five years. In the same period, our share of export markets and the level of manufacturing employment have fallen. Some 50% of the jobs that existed in IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland industries five years ago have disappeared.

    Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 6 December 2006 - Page 1

    Budget 2008
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
    I give the Minister one cheer for some reform of stamp duty but I do not endorse his housing strategy that is failing so many people. Even the Central Bank, hardly the source of radical thinking, tells us that half the people in the country cannot afford to buy a house and that this is unsustainable. The tragedy is that the bill for high cost Government has come home to roost, not just for taxpayers but for those trying to compete in the real economy.
    The Government and its policies accounted for half of all inflation during the past seven years. In addition, it loaded stealth taxes equivalent to €3,500 per annum onto every family. Inflation in sectors controlled by the Government is running at two and a half times the rate that obtains in equivalent sectors in other eurozone countries. Ireland has become a high-cost country primarily as a result of Government action. I will provide one statistic which, more than any other, illustrates this fact. Price increases in sectors controlled by Government during the past seven years stand at 45%. Manufacturing companies trying to export goods abroad — the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, will be aware of this — have seen their prices fall by 17%. That is the contrast.

    Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 5 December 2007 - Page 3


    see also:
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/listen-well-mr-cowen-to-the-wise-words-of-richard-bruton-1427990.html


  • #84
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    I'm sure now with this significant evidence you'll make an informed choice when it comes to election time and not just play the FF 'ignore the facts' game and vote the same way regardless


  • #85
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Apologies . . I assumed yours was a rhetorical question. .

    Yes, with hindsight it is clear that different economic policies might have changed our current situation . . hindsight is an enormously powerful tool . . .

    Except it wasn't hindsight.
    FG had argued that benchmarking was wrong.
    You had enough commentators warning that we had a huge unsustainable bubble but they were ignored or attacked by ff, the vested interests and their lackies in the media.

    Remember how McWilliams and Lee were labelled as cranks and tagged with line "of course they will be right some day but just not anytime soon". ?
    Remeber how Richard Curran's documentary about the housing crash in early 2007 was attacked, ridiculed as being over the top ?
    Remember how Morgan Kelly's article in 2007 was attacked ?
    Remember how bertie made the famous remakr to his union friends ?

    Nah of course you don't since you have ff selective memory. :rolleyes:

    Just like you refuse to answer some of my queries or points that pull you up.
    You claimed in earlier post that you left Ireland in 1996, but lo and behold everything was fine when you returned 5 years later it was brilliant and of course all due to bertie.
    Accept Ireland was not in bad shape in 1996 and you are misleading when you say that.
    1996 was one of the years when we had a real Celtic Tiger economy (you know based on real productive jobs) and 5 years later was when it was ending soon to be replaced by construciton mania.

    Also AFAIK you never answered my question on another thread whether or not you agree that a serving minister should resign, becuase he lied in an affidavit to an Irish court and he later when found out had to apologise to the court for this ?

    As always YES or NO please.
    Tommy Bateman wrote: »
    Bertie was a noble, mighty and integral man, he soared like an eagle, bit like a tiger, inspired like a sunset and was as courageous as a lion. We will never see Bertie's like again, the politicians there now are just in it for their own gain.

    The image I have of is more like ...
    a fat stuffed pidgeon barely flying over us, all the while doing what a pidgeon does best - covering us in sh**, biting like a rabid hyena, slithering like a snake, displaying the memory of a goldfish when suits, croaking like a toad about his achievements, and generally stinking the place up like a skunk.
    :D

    Apologies to all pidgoen fancers, I mean no disrepect to your birds by linking them or comparing them to such a disreputable being as b ahern.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #86
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    jmayo wrote: »
    Also AFAIK you never answered my question on another thread whether or not you agree that a serving minister should resign, becuase he lied in an affidavit to an Irish court and he later when found out had to apologise to the court for this ?

    As always YES or NO please.


    No time for a detailed answer to all your other points but I will try to later. . . . but i did want to address this quickly . . .

    I've tried to answer every question posed as open and honestly as I can . . I know you don't always like the answers but please don't accuse me of refusing to address the issues raised. .

    Regarding this specific point, It doesn't take long to check the thread before you go accusing me of dodging the question ..

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64295854#post64295854


  • #87
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Laminations wrote: »
    Here are a few extracts (taken from another site - by poster Fr. Hank Tree) from the responses by Richard Bruton to every budget speech delivered by Brian Cowen as Minister for Finance. There is plenty of other stuff in the speeches about public sector reform and general waste. But the themehighlighted here is competitiveness, the export industry, the very foundations the Celtic Tiger (1987-2001) was built on, and the impact of the construction bubble.

    Budget 2005
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
    There is a worrying complacency in Government about the enterprise sector. Few people realise that in the past four years, employment in the exposed sector of our economy has been in sharp decline. The rate of job losses has been more than double that of the mid-90s.
    We are facing a tough time in export markets. Since May 2002, export prices have fallen by 15%. Companies trading and competing have had to tighten their costs by 15% but the utilities, stealth taxes, rates and all the other burdens the State puts on those companies have increased by 27%. There is no tightening of belts when it comes to those delivering those services but the companies which have to compete in export markets are feeling the squeeze. Companies are leaving these shores to go to cheaper environments.

    Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 1 December 2004 - Page 4

    Budget 2006
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
    We need to examine what needs to be done to proof ourselves against changing and hardening external environments. No one can have illusions about the change that has happened in the external environment in which Ireland seeks to compete. There is a sharp contrast between the economy Deputy Quinn handed over to Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats in 1997 and the economy the Minister will soon hand back to the rainbow coalition. Superficially, there are many similarities. Employment is increasing rapidly and the budget surplus is healthy, but there are also signs of fragility which cannot be ignored. Approximately 40% of jobs in companies supported by the industrial agencies has been lost since 2000. Many have been replaced but not enough to prevent a sharp decline. Ireland has lost share in its export markets three years in a row. Our export performance is at its worst since 1974 and it is less than a quarter of what is was in the late 1990s.
    The problem is that while the construction sector can absorb people and conceal problems in underlying trading sectors, that cannot go on forever. As a small, open economy, we need to survive on the basis of competitive businesses and that is not happening. Ireland’s enterprise strategy was once the envy of emerging countries but it is feeling the strain and the cracks are showing.

    Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 7 December 2005 - Page 4

    Budget 2007
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
    The Government is increasing spending at a rate 50% faster than the growth of national income. Taxes are rising as a result. This year, the Government is continuing the trend by budgeting to increase spending by 11.5%. To put this in perspective, an ordinary worker will be lucky to obtain an increase of4%. The surplus has been cut back at a time when the economy is experiencing pressure on the prices front and when SSIAs are coming on stream. Spending is increasing far faster than national income and tax revenues and this is posing a threat. Many commentators warned the Government about inflation before the budget was put together and I believe they will now be of the opinion that we are on dangerous ground.
    The Government has doubled its dependence on the construction sector to support its revenue. A total of 25% of every tax euro spent by the Government comes from the construction sector. We are not in a strong position; we are, in fact, in a vulnerable position.
    The real question is whether the Government has done enough to build the capability of the economy to withstand the real pressures under which it is about to come. Those pressures do not merely revolve around the possible slowdown in the housing market; they relate to the relentless march of competition that is coming our way. Our competitiveness has declined in each of the past five years. In the same period, our share of export markets and the level of manufacturing employment have fallen. Some 50% of the jobs that existed in IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland industries five years ago have disappeared.

    Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 6 December 2006 - Page 1

    Budget 2008
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Richard Bruton
    I give the Minister one cheer for some reform of stamp duty but I do not endorse his housing strategy that is failing so many people. Even the Central Bank, hardly the source of radical thinking, tells us that half the people in the country cannot afford to buy a house and that this is unsustainable. The tragedy is that the bill for high cost Government has come home to roost, not just for taxpayers but for those trying to compete in the real economy.
    The Government and its policies accounted for half of all inflation during the past seven years. In addition, it loaded stealth taxes equivalent to €3,500 per annum onto every family. Inflation in sectors controlled by the Government is running at two and a half times the rate that obtains in equivalent sectors in other eurozone countries. Ireland has become a high-cost country primarily as a result of Government action. I will provide one statistic which, more than any other, illustrates this fact. Price increases in sectors controlled by Government during the past seven years stand at 45%. Manufacturing companies trying to export goods abroad — the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, will be aware of this — have seen their prices fall by 17%. That is the contrast.

    Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Dáil Éireann Wednesday, 5 December 2007 - Page 3


    see also:
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/listen-well-mr-cowen-to-the-wise-words-of-richard-bruton-1427990.html


    Thank you for posting those links . . and I am happy to acknowledge that Richard Bruton recognised (as did the FF government if you go back and check) an over-dependence on the construction sector. . But where are the FG-LAB plans to address the situation ?

    The link I posted earlier to the joint 2007 FG-LAB strategy document appears to ignore Richard Brutons warnings ? How would reducing stamp duty have addressed the fact that the property bubble was going to implode ? How would an increase in spending back then have done anything positive about the deficit now ?

    You have ignored the second part of my question . .
    hallelujajordan wrote:
    Point me to some serious significant evidence that shows that FG/LAB had a better view of the future and had stronger plans to deal with it ?


  • #88
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    I am happy to acknowledge that Richard Bruton recognised (as did the FF government if you go back and check) an over-dependence on the construction sector. . But where are the FG-LAB plans to address the situation ?

    Where were FF's, if they "recognised it" too ?


  • #89
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    You have ignored the second part of my question . .


    Hmmm...let me see, what were their stronger plans? I note that stronger is a comparative term, so judged against FFs plans almost anything would be stronger.....but I'll have a go

    2007 election manifesto

    Item no. 3
    3. Spend taxpayers' money well, getting maximum value and sacking any Minister who spends carelessly. That means:
    - Put Minister's reputation on the line.
    - Link money to performance and strategic change.
    - Public project scrutiny at critical gateways.
    - Every agency openly accountable.

    To date FF have adopted none of the above 'policies to reduce the wastage of money resulting from extremely poor ministerial decisions


  • #90
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Tommy Bateman wrote: »
    Bertie was a noble, mighty and integral man, he soared like an eagle, bit like a tiger, inspired like a sunset and was as courageous as a lion. We will never see Bertie's like again, the politicians there now are just in it for their own gain.

    Why do you have such disdain for the Irish people?

    I hope we don't see the like of Bertie again, but as long as there's a Fianna Fail, there will be a thieving b****** in the wings.


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  • #91
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Because currently, whether you agree with the ones they make or not, the government can make decisions. . . A coalition partnership with FG/LAB will be crippled from the outset by their inherent differences. .

    Scare mongering. So the only solution is to always vote for the largest party to at all costs avoid coalitions?
    Not that the current set up is anything to go by, but do you not think a few voices of differing view points might have helped avoid the current disaster?


  • #92
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Laminations wrote: »
    Hmmm...let me see, what were their stronger plans? I note that stronger is a comparative term, so judged against FFs plans almost anything would be stronger.....but I'll have a go

    2007 election manifesto

    Item no. 3
    3. Spend taxpayers' money well, getting maximum value and sacking any Minister who spends carelessly. That means:
    - Put Minister's reputation on the line.
    - Link money to performance and strategic change.
    - Public project scrutiny at critical gateways.
    - Every agency openly accountable.

    To date FF have adopted none of the above 'policies to reduce the wastage of money resulting from extremely poor ministerial decisions
    A fairly wishy-washy commitment . . and hardly evidence of a stronger plan to deal with the economic situation. .

    I note none of you have addressed their radical plan to cut stamp duty and the effects it would have had if they had been succesful . .


  • #93
    Tommy Bateman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Tommy Bateman


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    Scare mongering. So the only solution is to always vote for the largest party to at all costs avoid coalitions?
    Not that the current set up is anything to go by, but do you not think a few voices of differing view points might have helped avoid the current disaster?

    Sure the coalition could do nothing about that international banking crisis that happened two years ago. Lenny knew what to do and now were coming out of recession, thats why were increasing in the polls again. Its a bitter pill to swallow for the opposition but Lenny and Cowen are just what we need to get us through the remains of the current emergency.


  • #94
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Tommy Bateman wrote: »
    Sure the coalition could do nothing about that international banking crisis that happened two years ago. Lenny knew what to do and now were coming out of recession, thats why were increasing in the polls again. Its a bitter pill to swallow for the opposition but Lenny and Cowen are just what we need to get us through the remains of the current emergency.

    The humour forum's thataway =>

    The coalition (or FF) could've done nothing about the international banking crisis, but whoever was in power could've lessened the blow by not bull****ting about everything being fine, ignoring the many problems and corruption, and by actually delivering on the promised "soft landing".

    "Lenny knew what to do" - sheesh! :rolleyes:

    Throw a ****load of our money at it and pray - like all FF "solutions".

    And guarantee the most corrupt and sickening organisation ever witnessed in this country without even reading the f**king report.

    Where's my "ignore" button ?


  • #95
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    hallelujajordan wrote: »

    I note none of you have addressed their radical plan to cut stamp duty and the effects it would have had if they had been succesful . .
    From Enda Kenny
    Fine Gael would further cut stamp duty for ordinary families trading up and down. We'd fund it by ending stamp duty loopholes for wealthy buyers, landowners and developers. We'd consolidate the various affordable housing products into one, new, improved home equity product that would bring many first time buyers into the market.
    Yep you are right, FG were going to cut stamp duty. But telling half the story as you are (leaving out the bit about closing loopholes that encouraged development which resulted in the huge oversupply of housing) doesn't represent their policies fairly.


    I'd just like to point out I'm not a FG member and have no affiliation to any party. There are plenty of things about the opposition parties I don't like but this thread is about Bertie. You have continued to skirt around the issues raised about the mans character and leadership and continually deflect the thread towards party politics.


  • #96
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Laminations wrote: »
    Yep you are right, FG were going to cut stamp duty. But telling half the story as you are (leaving out the bit about closing loopholes that encouraged development which resulted in the huge oversupply of housing) doesn't represent their policies fairly.


    I'd just like to point out I'm not a FG member and have no affiliation to any party. There are plenty of things about the opposition parties I don't like but this thread is about Bertie. You have continued to skirt around the issues raised about the mans character and leadership and continually deflect the thread towards party politics.

    Gimme a break .. My opening opinion on this thread was a full and detailed description (complete with references) of my view of Bertie Aherne's time as taoiseach . . I spoke of his character and of my views of his leadership skills . .

    . . Most of my comments since then have been in defence of comments from others around FF policies, mainly around the economic question. . Don't accuse me of trying to deflect thread when every single thread on this forum is getting derailed into a "We hate FF" discussion . .

    BTW, can I ask your opinion of what impact Enda Kenny's stamp duty policy would have had on property prices ?


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  • #97
    aidan24326
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    bijapos wrote: »
    He lost it in my opinion the day he said at the tribunal that he won some money on the horses. I wonder myself what the inland revenue would do if every self employed person in this country claimed that unexplained monies were won at the local Paddy Power.

    He seriously let himself down there. That type of answer is the last refuge of a scoundrel.


  • #98
    allisbleak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭allisbleak


    Laminations wrote: »
    Where are the Bertie supporters? I dont want you to feel like you are walking into the lions den here, if you have facts about the man that highlight his good points and you believe his good points outweigh his bad (or can dispute his bad points) then please post.

    If you're not willing to whole-heartedly defend/support him here then dont half-heartedly do it in other threads

    Bertie is a liar. He should have been charged with contempt at the very least.


  • #99
    LostinBlanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    A lot done, a lot more to do.

    Aren't we lucky that we had such a shining light to lead us through the darkness?
    To show us that if you're in trouble with the law all you have to do is ring up a mate in RTE and come out with some carefully scripted crocodile tears on TV and the job is oxo.
    If people are pointiing out that what you're doing to the country and the economy is dangerous and will lead to bankruptcy, all you have to do is tell them to commit suicide?
    If people are asking awkward questions about why you didn't have a bank account when you were a minister for finance and then changed money into sterling and back again and back into sterling again. No wait it wasn't sterling, it was eh . . . oh yes the horses I won it on the horses. But when you're asked what horses you can't remember?
    If those nasty people who don't believe you still won't go away with their questions tell them that your dear mother is dead and it had a terrible effect on you.
    If they're still asking questions tell them it was all the fault of a dead solicitor. Ah shure you didn't know, you were too busy talking to Paddy the Plasterer and Billy the Bus driver who was there but didn't have anything to eat so he wasn't there officially.
    To not be able to remember the answers to nasty questions at the tribunals but be able to remember enough to "write" a biography putting your side of the story.
    To hope that no one remembers that you have relatives who work high up in the Revenue Commissioners. The same body that awarded you tax free exemption for your buke.
    To be able to spend all those thousands of euro on make up and still look like . . . yourself.


  • #100
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    The Ireland I knew in 1996 certainly wasn't buzzing. . there were lots of jobs in the IT sector but outside of that very little else . . Unemployment was about the same level that it is today . . During the period I was abroad the country took off and unemployment reached record lows . . throughout the noughties it remained at a 4/5 % level . .
    What ! Every year after 1990 saw gpwth in GDP and a reduction in unemployment/ 94/95 saw GDP growth of 10% and 05/6 saw 8% growth of GDP The pharmaceutical industry was very well established in the 80's and early 90's and the construction was in good condition in the early 1990's.


  • #101
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    anymore wrote: »
    What ! Every year after 1990 saw gpwth in GDP and a reduction in unemployment/ 94/95 saw GDP growth of 10% and 05/6 saw 8% growth of GDP The pharmaceutical industry was very well established in the 80's and early 90's and the construction was in good condition in the early 1990's.


    Take a look at this report . .

    http://www.cso.ie/newsevents/pressrelease_measuringirelandsprogress2006.htm (you need to download the linked PDF to view the raw data) . . Unemployment rates in 1996 were at the same level as they were in 2009 . .

    In fact, in May 2009 the rate was exactly the same as it was in May 1996 - 11.8%. . . From 1997 onwards the economy really began to pick up.

    If GDP growth is a true measure of economic success then the 70's were a boom time in Ireland . . i was only a whippersnapper but its not how I remember it. . in fact, I think my father was unemployed for much of the decade. .

    http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:IRL&dl=en&hl=en&q=ireland+GDP+growth

    Here is another link that contradicts your data. . www.legco.gov.hk/yr04-05/english/sec/library/0405fs12e.pdf -
    unemployment in Ireland grew from 1990 to 1993 and only began to recover in 93 . . mainly fuelled by the influx of FDI that came as a result of the policies of the various FF administrations in the late 80's / early 90's . .

    But you know what. . this really is off-topic and matters very little to the debate. . I'm not arguing that things only picked up when Bertie Aherne was elected. I'm simply sharing my own experiences of the Ireland I left in 1996 compared to the one I returned to 5 years later.


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