Primary school college course and atheism

number10a · 18-02-2012 10:16pm #1

So, as I've mentioned on here a couple of times, I'm nearly finished the H. Dip. for primary school teaching. We have our online religion exam on Wednesday and I was going through the demo exam to make sure it works. Some of the questions that will be on it are actually shocking!! I cannot believe that a college in Ireland in 2012 is allowed to preach such shìt.

I've attached two sample questions from the exam for your viewing pleasure. The answer that I will have to choose to get the marks for the first attachment is "True". And in the second attachment, asking which statement is false, I will have to choose the one about Hinduism. So apparently, the one about atheism is true.

I am actually in shock. How can something that is so subjective and open to opinion be included in an exam in a modern college??? I could understand something like "Atheist humanism has produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed. Discuss." But actually putting a True/False option there?? There is no notable incident in history where someone actually went out and said "Oh those darn believers! I'll kill them all!!" I can think of plenty of examples where the reverse happened though.

I knew what I was letting myself in for when deciding to train as a primary school teacher in Ireland, but I didn't think it was this bad. I had already made up my mind that I was leaving Ireland as soon as I'm qualified (for a lot of reasons, teaching of religion being a more minor one), but this just confirms it even more. Effectively, I'm expected to spout this shìte out to a child if I ever teach in a Catholic school. Unbelievable.

/rant

eastbono · 18-02-2012 10:22pm

Just dot the i's and cross the t's and get your dip. Then go and teach in another country.

number10a · 18-02-2012 10:24pm

eastbono wrote: »

Just dot the i's and cross the t's and get your dip. Then go and teach in another country.

Exactly what I'm going to do. Head down and get it done. But I'm actually in such shock that I had to vent. I basically have to admit that people like me are evil to get the best possible grade in this course.

I had expected the course to include "atheism is bad, Catholicism is good" type stuff, so I was prepared, but not this extreme.

eastbono · 18-02-2012 10:34pm

number10a wrote: »

Exactly what I'm going to do. Head down and get it done. But I'm actually in such shock that I had to vent. I basically have to admit that people like me are evil to get the best possible grade in this course.

I had expected the course to include "atheism is bad, Catholicism is good" type stuff, so I was prepared, but not this extreme.

I dont do religion.... not my thing or anti religion but had to reply to your post just keep the head down and qualify and good luck with your career in the future. Oh btw you are not evil... I would presume there are plenty more like you.

fitz0 · 18-02-2012 10:37pm

Well, OP, you know everything about religion is either true or false. There are no metaphors grey areas.

MagicMarker · 18-02-2012 11:04pm

What. the. fuck.

Turtwig · 18-02-2012 11:12pm

Sorry to be direct but could you please name the college because that is a fucking disgrace!
(If you have to wait until you graduate then please come back to this thread.:))

number10a · 19-02-2012 12:26am

I've no problem naming it. Just not sure if the mods would like it. It's Hibernia College.

swiftblade · 19-02-2012 12:28am

The first is so bad you would think it was a joke.

kylith · 19-02-2012 2:13am

I'm not really seeing a problem with the second one. Hinduism could be argued to be as positive a force for change in (Hindu) society as Catholicism has (in Catholic society). Therefore it can be marked as false that atheism has a negative effect on society.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way defending the test. The sooner such religious teaching is gone from any place of learning the better.

Dades · 19-02-2012 2:30am

number10a wrote: »

So, as I've mentioned on here a couple of times, I'm nearly finished the H. Dip. for primary school teaching. We have our online religion exam on Wednesday and I was going through the demo exam to make sure it works. Some of the questions that will be on it are actually shocking!! I cannot believe that a college in Ireland in 2012 is allowed to preach such shìt.

Those questions are unbelievable.

It's a demo though, right? They can't possibly represent what is actually asked?

Seriously, is this something that has not come to light as it's big.

D4RK ONION · 19-02-2012 2:33am

I went to Mary I myself, and while they do their best to shove Catholicism down your throat at every turn, I must say there was never any slander of other religious standpoints/beliefs/lack of; by the college in either the lectures or the courses.

That's not to say that they were acknowledged or catered for, but there was never anything like that first question. That's bloody INSANE.

As for teaching in this country, get used to being a massive hypocrite when it comes to doing the job you always wanted to do. Alive O is mentally numbing.

Coriolanus · 19-02-2012 3:07am

Dades wrote: »

It's a demo though, right? They can't possibly represent what is actually asked?
[/I]

@OP If it's an online exam, do you mean at home? Any chance of capping the actual exam, just for curiosities sake?

MrPudding · 19-02-2012 11:12am

Well, that answers something that has been bugging me for a while; what does ISAW do for a living?

MrP

number10a · 19-02-2012 1:42pm

kylith wrote: »

I'm not really seeing a problem with the second one. Hinduism could be argued to be as positive a force for change in (Hindu) society as Catholicism has (in Catholic society). Therefore it can be marked as false that atheism has a negative effect on society.

You thought about it the same way I did, that it could be argued that both Hinduism and Atheism have had positive effects on society. Any of this stuff could be argued in any direction as it is highly subjective and based on opinion, not fact. But my college-produced notes say differenty. The demo exam didn't tell me if I was right or wrong for specific questions (I got a very high mark overall), but using the notes as a reference, I am 99.9% sure that I'm correct for these two.

In the notes themselves:

What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives.

They go on then to comment on how Hinduism is negative because of the belief in karma and that the poor must accept their destiny to be poor and accept that the upper classes are destined to be wealthy and powerful. Hmmmm....... A belief can have negative implications for the world?? Ban on condoms in AIDS-ridden parts of Africa, anyone???

Dades wrote: »

Those questions are unbelievable.

It's a demo though, right? They can't possibly represent what is actually asked?

Seriously, is this something that has not come to light as it's big.

It is a demo. These questions may well not be asked. But, why have such controversial questions if you're not going to have them at all? Regardless, this shìte is all in the notes anyway, even if the questions were never asked. I saw it in the notes months ago, but quietly remained shocked. Having to tick the box in an exam is another matter entirely.

Galvasean · 19-02-2012 2:59pm

I must say those questions are pretty mental. I knew there was a pro Catholic bias, but this is insane!

krankykitty · 19-02-2012 3:20pm

Goes to show they don't want to encourage critical thinking in schools, if they think this is an appropriate exam question for those who will be teaching them.. I feel sorry for those teachers and children who don't see the world in black and white, true and false. Shocking stuff.

Edit: OP, as they're so quick to judge other religions (and people of none), I wonder is there any questions in there about the effect of the Catholic church on the psyche of so many unfortunate people over the years, abuse victims, Magdalene inmates.. I'd guess not. Easier to blame the Hindi's and the baby eaters!

recedite · 19-02-2012 4:34pm

number10a wrote: »

this stuff could be argued in any direction as it is highly subjective and based on opinion, not fact. But my college-produced notes say differently.

Indeed. “The trouble with the world”, said Bertrand Russell, “is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt”.

And as for this statement; "Islam is based on the identity of religion and society" - it makes no sense at all, its just a meaningless arrangement of words into a sentence :pac: Is it supposed to look clever and intellectual? (ie the kind of thing that might be expected in teacher training)

This one; "Atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed" seems like incitement to hatred of "atheist humanists". Isn't President Michael D. Higgins one of them? I wonder what he would think of it?

Pace2008 · 19-02-2012 4:35pm

I doubt they'd dare to put the following on their MCQ, nor would they get way with it if they did:

Which of the following statements is true?

a) Christians believe the Koran is the word of God

b) Judaism states that Jesus Christ is the son of God incarnate

C) Followers of Islam have been responsible for the majority of terrorist attacks in the 21st century

Galvasean · 19-02-2012 4:41pm

recedite wrote: »

This one; "Atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed" seems like incitement to hatred of "atheist humanists". Isn't President Michael D. Higgins one of them? I wonder what he would think of it?

I recall reading somewhere that President Higgins described himself as being Catholic, but not necessarily believing in heaven and hell.
Not really sure what that entails, a 'cultural catholic' of sorts perhaps?

I do find that statement re: 'atheist humanists' muddled at best. Are they really implying that Jo' Stalin practiced humanism?

19-02-2012 4:43pm

Galvasean wrote: »

I recall reading somewhere that President Higgins described himself as being Catholic, but not necessarily believing in heaven and hell.
Not really sure what that entails, a 'cultural catholic' of sorts perhaps?

I do find that statement re: 'atheist humanists' muddled at best. Are they really implying that Jo' Stalin practiced humanism?

considering there are people in the buddhist forum going on about "secular buddhism" i dont know what anything is anymore

Galvasean · 19-02-2012 4:45pm

Good ol' totalitarian humanism...

recedite · 19-02-2012 6:01pm

Don't get me started on militant humanists....

recedite · 19-02-2012 6:07pm

Galvasean wrote: »

I recall reading somewhere that President Higgins described himself as being Catholic, but not necessarily believing in heaven and hell.
Not really sure what that entails, a 'cultural catholic' of sorts perhaps?

Well, he asked for a humanist to be invited along to his inauguration ceremony, so he must have some sort of affinity. When listening to a politician's utterances, always remember that their primary goal is to be re elected.

hectorh · 19-02-2012 6:35pm

My jaw literally dropped. After a quick look through the course syllabus, these questions seem to be a slight departure from the stated aims of the module.

"Inform students about the fundamental beliefs of different faiths, including the Roman Catholic doctrine, and explain how they are applied in the teaching of Religious and Ethical Education in primary school classes" Link

Four of my friends are recent primary education graduates so it's difficult to shock me when it comes to our anachronistic education system but this... You would think the more hardline Catholics would be the most vocal about the need to immediately reform our education system. I suspect that the majority of graduates have no interest in teaching catholic doctrine.

Galvasean · 19-02-2012 6:39pm

I have an acquaintance studying primary school teaching and lives in fear of being 'outed' as an atheist. It's a really messed up system.

jhegarty · 19-02-2012 6:44pm

number10a wrote: »

The demo exam didn't tell me if I was right or wrong for specific questions (I got a very high mark overall), but using the notes as a reference, I am 99.9% sure that I'm correct for these two.

Hang on , have you seen to answers to these questions ?

Or are you offend on what you guess the answers are ?

LovelyLottie · 19-02-2012 6:59pm

I did Hibernia several years ago and the assessment was different - no online exam, just a long written assignment. I'm quite surprised at those questions... i don't remember reading anything like that when i did it, but in fairness there may have been stuff like that in the notes, i just may have missed that bit :cool:

In practice in a Catholic primary school, you would never slate any other religion or atheism, even if the kids happened to know what that was. You keep it upbeat and happy, it's all about our place in the world, belonging, being loved... You don't have to get into the nitty gritty, i don't anyway

Silver_525 · 19-02-2012 7:21pm

Just came across this thread, i'm also doing that religion exam on wednesday and can't believe those questions!!

I didn't even do the demo yet because judging on the (quick) glance I gave those religion notes I actually can't summon the energy for it!!

Don't even get me started on the stuff I came across in Alive-o during tp. Seriously shocked aswell at how backward the college is in terms of religion. I'd say we grin and bear it til we're qualified then get to a country where their school systems are somewhat normal

D4RK ONION · 19-02-2012 10:54pm

Galvasean wrote: »

I have an acquaintance studying primary school teaching and lives in fear of being 'outed' as an atheist. It's a really messed up system.

I'm afraid that wont change after he/she gets a job. No one in my school knows I'm an atheist. I just have to put up and shut up.

RichieC · 19-02-2012 11:10pm

robindch · 19-02-2012 11:44pm

Silver_525 wrote: »

Just came across this thread, i'm also doing that religion exam on wednesday and can't believe those questions!!

Noting that number10a mentioned that these questions come from the mock exam, is there any chance you might be able to record a couple of the questions from the actual exam?

I'd hate to think they could be as batshit crazy as the mock, but perhaps they are.

Thanks in advance.

.

Peregrinus · 20-02-2012 5:18am

I’m gobsmacked. Like hectorh in post #25, I note that the nature and tone of the questions bears no relationship at all to the course syllabus on the Hibernia College website, which very clearly does not require students to be religious believers, or to profess religious beliefs.

I note that these are from a mock exam. It is possible that the mock is intended to indicate the form and structure of questions, rather than the actual substantive material the exam will address?

Number10a, do the questions reflect the approach taken in the teaching and coursework involved in the delivery of the module?

I’m entirely willing to believe that there are religious bigots out there, and that some of them are in influential positions in Colleges of Education. But these questions seem to me to be so totally disconnected from the course syllabus, and to reflect such inappropriate attitudes, that if this was really how the College was conducting its exams I think its credibility and even accreditation would have to be at risk.

Number10a, do you know if there are extern examiners involved in the process?

Gbear · 20-02-2012 11:42am

Silver_525 wrote: »

Don't even get me started on the stuff I came across in Alive-o during tp. Seriously shocked aswell at how backward the college is in terms of religion. I'd say we grin and bear it til we're qualified then get to a country where their school systems are somewhat normal

Sorry to somewhat go off topic. What's Alive-o?

Having recently finished primary school (i.e, in the last 15 years:pac:) I still remember it quite fondly. I had the luck of going to a non-denominational one.
I don't know much about catholic primaries but it's always seemed utterly surreal being told of kids having to learn prayers and the kind of bollocks mentioned in the OP.

For better or worse I was been shielded from this overt kind of indoctrination as a child.

Seeing as there's a push to remove religious orders from running schools, does anyone know if that will imply a change in curriculum?

kylith · 20-02-2012 12:34pm

Gbear wrote: »

Sorry to somewhat go off topic. What's Alive-o?

Having recently finished primary school (i.e, in the last 15 years:pac:) I still remember it quite fondly. I had the luck of going to a non-denominational one.
I don't know much about catholic primaries but it's always seemed utterly surreal being told of kids having to learn prayers and the kind of bollocks mentioned in the OP.

For better or worse I was been shielded from this overt kind of indoctrination as a child.

Seeing as there's a push to remove religious orders from running schools, does anyone know if that will imply a change in curriculum?

There would certainly have to be, especially in 1st and 6th class where currently a good chunk of the year is taken up with preperation for religious rites. I think that the time formerly taken up by religion should be used for the sciences, but it'll probably just become Ethics or something.

Man, I'd have loved a non-denom school. I still remember learning all of the prayers by rote: 32 of us mindlessly chanting them back at the teacher. Even as a child it bugged me that full stops, commas, and the rest were ignored by people praying, and I always insisted on saying them 'properly'. What a little pedant I was

20-02-2012 12:37pm

kylith wrote: »

What a little pedant I was

me too
then i'd get glared at

kylith · 20-02-2012 12:39pm

bluewolf wrote: »

me too
then i'd get glared at

Oh, they do love their glaring.

recedite · 20-02-2012 12:40pm

Gbear wrote: »

Seeing as there's a push to remove religious orders from running schools, does anyone know if that will imply a change in curriculum?

I would see it more as a push to displace them. No, it won't affect the curriculum of this particular training college.
A couple of years ago the educate together crowd became successful at setting up secular primary schools, and now they are setting up secondary schools for these kids to move on to. I wouldn't be surprised if they establish a teacher training college in another few years, and that is where the change of curriculum comes in. If the schools get the clientele, ie the kids, then they will need the teachers. Obviously any school can employ a newly trained teacher from any college, but the fact is, at the moment catholics train and take on catholics. Protestants train and take on protestants, which leaves no room for anyone falling outside these two categories. AFAIK no muslim has ever been trained as a teacher in this country, hence they bring in key staff from abroad for their schools.

PhoenixParker · 20-02-2012 12:42pm

The answer to the first question is false and the answer to the second question is that the statement "Atheism has had, historically speaking, a negative effect on society is false"

Or at least I hope it is.

I don't have a problem with the questions themselves that much. They're the equivalent of "Shakespeare is an accurate historical source, True or False" on a history paper. I do have a problem with university exams asking questions that a kid in sixth class should be able to answer. Then again I also have a problem with MCQ precisely because they produce this sort of test of student ability, i.e. none.

magicbastarder · 20-02-2012 12:43pm

this thread has made it to broadsheet.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/02/20/literally-unbelievable/

Gbear · 20-02-2012 12:55pm

recedite wrote: »

I would see it more as a push to displace them. No, it won't affect the curriculum of this particular training college.
A couple of years ago the educate together crowd became successful at setting up secular primary schools, and now they are setting up secondary schools for these kids to move on to. I wouldn't be surprised if they establish a teacher training college in another few years, and that is where the change of curriculum comes in. If the schools get the clientele, ie the kids, then they will need the teachers. Obviously any school can employ a newly trained teacher from any college, but the fact is, at the moment catholics train and take on catholics. Protestants train and take on protestants, which leaves no room for anyone falling outside these two categories. AFAIK no muslim has ever been trained as a teacher in this country, hence they bring in key staff from abroad for their schools.

Wow. I actually had no idea it worked that way. I assumed there was a general teaching curriculum and then specific schools would direct a teacher towards a particular brand on nonsense.

It really is very disheartening to learn how backwards our education system is right from the start of school.:(

In the recent debates discussing the secularisation of education between Educate Together and parents that appeared on the likes of the Late Late I assumed that the craziness the secular parents were put through was somewhat anomalous.

I think the eventual secularisation is inevitable but I only hope it's in place by the time I get around to having my own sproglets.

Silver_525 · 20-02-2012 1:20pm

is there any chance you might be able to record a couple of the questions from the actual exam?

Ya il try do that-would be for some interesting reading no doubt!
Alive-o is the religion books used in all Catholic primary schools. It's fairly painful stuff to be honest and ya they have to learn off loads of different prayers each year.

mikhail · 20-02-2012 1:22pm

Galvasean wrote: »

I recall reading somewhere that President Higgins described himself as being Catholic, but not necessarily believing in heaven and hell.
Not really sure what that entails, a 'cultural catholic' of sorts perhaps?

I do find that statement re: 'atheist humanists' muddled at best. Are they really implying that Jo' Stalin practiced humanism?

I think he refers to himself as "spiritual", but deflects detailed questions regarding his beliefs.

Sparks · 20-02-2012 1:52pm

I had to check the date to be sure this wasn't the start of april... and then I remembered our "comparative religions" bit from our RI classes (you're an atheist? you've been one all your life? doesn't matter, there's no non-religious schools available, and Religious Indoctrination Instruction is mandatory). That was 20 years or so ago, and the only reason I remember it is that our hapless nun spent twenty minutes trying to convince a bunch of teenagers that Buddhism was inhumane. Which was tragicly comic to watch, but you have to wonder, if this is still being taught today, isn't it about time we copped on?

expectationlost · 20-02-2012 2:04pm

its not that the answer could be false false false the premise of the questions is childish

Pwpane · 20-02-2012 2:37pm

Gbear wrote: »

Sorry to somewhat go off topic. What's Alive-o?

Having recently finished primary school (i.e, in the last 15 years:pac:) I still remember it quite fondly. I had the luck of going to a non-denominational one.
I don't know much about catholic primaries but it's always seemed utterly surreal being told of kids having to learn prayers and the kind of bollocks mentioned in the OP.

For better or worse I was been shielded from this overt kind of indoctrination as a child.

Seeing as there's a push to remove religious orders from running schools, does anyone know if that will imply a change in curriculum?

The record of the Churches when they 'leave' schools is seen in schools at second level. Before 'leaving' they ensure strong representation on the Boards of Management. Google the composition of Boards of Management of the different types of school. Also consider the Trusts recently set up by various Catholic denominations to be Trustees of the schools they no longer have personnel to run. Also consider that Trustees have a large part in the appointment of Principals and Deputy Principals, and that a major concern is the continuation of the ethos of the school.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

The only way to achieve change is from the bottom up as in, perhaps, Educate Together.

Beruthiel · 20-02-2012 2:48pm

I find it utterly shocking that this is what passes for education in our third level collages.
It is one thing to learn about various religions, but, when questions like the atheism one are considered to be an accurate assessment of the truth, well, the mind just boggles.

number10a
Has it been brought to the attention of anyone who can do something about it?

OneOfThem Stumbled · 20-02-2012 3:56pm

number10a wrote: »

They go on then to comment on how Hinduism is negative because of the belief in karma and that the poor must accept their destiny to be poor and accept that the upper classes are destined to be wealthy and powerful. Hmmmm....... A belief can have negative implications for the world?? Ban on condoms in AIDS-ridden parts of Africa, anyone???

I would be inclined to say that those questions cannot be answered with either true/false. However the first one is so absolutely clearly false: it even specifies humanism. I would find it hard for anyone to consider Nazism atheist in nature - but as for humanist :rolleyes:. Even Marxism I would not consider to be atheist really: it was opposed to all forms of organised religion, but didn't actually care about faith per se.

oceanclub · 20-02-2012 5:07pm

There's at least one journo following this issue up; hope to see more about it soon. It's appalling that a college here can teach that atheism, humanism and Hinduism are negative as objective facts in an exam situation.

Needless to say, if the situation was reversed and Catholicism was the issue, David Quinn, John Waters and the usual crew would be having a field day.

P.

Zeouterlimits · 20-02-2012 6:37pm

Beruthiel wrote: »

number10a
Has it been brought to the attention of anyone who can do something about it?

Indeed, I'd really like to know this.

Gbear · 20-02-2012 6:48pm

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Indeed, I'd really like to know this.

If he hasn't he'll get his Atheist club card revoked:pac:

Primary school college course and atheism

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