National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda · 29-10-2014 12:32pm

Eircode just released a 104 page product guide that goes into great detail, they also said pricing and sample database will be available soon

I'll try upload somewhere and get a link to post here

By the way - i have this as i registered my intetrest on the Eircode website, and they emailed this to me today

ukoda · 29-10-2014 2:16pm

my thoughts on reading it:

Database size is 150mb compressed and approx 2gb uncompressed - grand for sat navs
It has error checking built in to know that theres an address mis-match and it can validate that the eircode is mis spelt and correct it
Page 46 covers the queries that you can run on the database, something loc8 could never give the country.

I'll say it again, a national postcode needs to be tied to database to make it useful for more than package delivery

Im pretty impressed upon reading this

larchill · 29-10-2014 2:44pm

Certainly very comprehensive with checks built in. It resembles the Geodirectory structures. You'd need to know your SQL, & relational database stuff to understand some of it though. Anyway, it would appear that things are progressing :cool:

Carawaystick · 29-10-2014 5:55pm

150 mb or 150 MB? factor of 8 difference there....

ukoda · 29-10-2014 6:02pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

150 mb or 150 MB? factor of 8 difference there....

Mb* apologies

YossiA · 29-10-2014 7:30pm

Great idea, just registered with them. Seems they will not charge for entry to daily draw but will make their money from advertising. Why didn't I think of that

irishgeo · 31-10-2014 9:20am

Is the guy still moaning about loc8.i suppose it could be a pretty slump in use when it happens.

The problem is a lot of UK sites won't sign up for it and the post codes boxes will still be verified against the UK ones and reject Irish ones.

ukoda · 31-10-2014 9:25am

irishgeo wrote: »

The problem is a lot of UK sites won't sign up for it and the post codes boxes will still be verified against the UK ones and reject Irish ones.

Most websites ask you what country you want it delivered to first, if you select an non UK country the postcode field is usually free text that's not validated, so it should be ok

murpho999 · 31-10-2014 12:20pm

irishgeo wrote: »

Is the guy still moaning about loc8.i suppose it could be a pretty slump in use when it happens.

The problem is a lot of UK sites won't sign up for it and the post codes boxes will still be verified against the UK ones and reject Irish ones.

Why would this happen when the Ireland is not part of the UK ones?

Really, people are coming up with problems that just won't happen.

I still fail to see what's wrong with forthcoming system and am convinced that it's just people being cranks about it.

For example, emergency services stating that the postcode will only bring you to a building and not a location, like a spot on a road.

What part of it being a "Post" code do they not understand, and if someone is in an emergency at the side of the road how are they supposed to know what postcode they are in? Ridiculous complaint that can be is being confused with GPS.

recedite · 31-10-2014 4:48pm

ukoda wrote: »

I'll say it again, a national postcode needs to be tied to database to make it useful for more than package delivery

Repeating your statement over and over again doesn't make it true.
So eircode seems to allow for only one address point (one code) at a university campus. So lets say there was an emergency at one particular building at UCD, how does quoting the single university code help the emergency workers to achieve a quicker response time?
On the other hand, a single block of apartments with one entrance could have 50 different codes.

The reality is, the "eircode + database" combination will be excellent to keep track of property tax, water charges, and also for compiling marketing statistics for junk mail etc.
It will be less than ideal, and arguably "not fit for purpose" overall when it comes to delivery of packages by a courier, and for use by emergency services. This is because for any location not involving an "address point" it is totally useless.

ukoda · 31-10-2014 5:12pm

recedite wrote: »

Repeating your statement over and over again doesn't make it true.
So eircode seems to allow for only one address point (one code) at a university campus. So lets say there was an emergency at one particular building at UCD, how does quoting the single university code help the emergency workers to achieve a quicker response time?
On the other hand, a single block of apartments with one entrance could have 50 different codes.

The reality is, the "eircode + database" combination will be excellent to keep track of property tax, water charges, and also for compiling marketing statistics for junk mail etc.
It will be less than ideal, and arguably "not fit for purpose" overall when it comes to delivery of packages by a courier, and for use by emergency services. This is because for any location not involving an "address point" it is totally useless.

and you repeating the same old "problems" doesn't make them eircodes problems

I've provided a link to what the EU are doing to transmit locations to emergency services as the person is calling, it was discussed a few pages back. that will solve the problem you raise

Loc8 code is not going to be any use in an emergency as its awkward and cumbersome to use, requires a third party app, requires education on the callers part and requires the caller to generate and memorise a code to be repeated back to a call centre. The E112 solution requires none of that and is extremely user friendly, hence why the EU are looking at implementing it.

The database isn't needed to keep track of any water/property tax etc, each has there own tracking system.

what it will be useful for is planning and providing services and being a "bible" for address references and locations thats an official source.

31-10-2014 7:20pm

ukoda wrote: »

Most websites ask you what country you want it delivered to first, if you select an non UK country the postcode field is usually free text that's not validated, so it should be ok

True, but you usually have to have something in the box for the site to work.
Can make for some quite creative Made up postcodes

a65b2cd · 31-10-2014 8:50pm

Found this article on loc8 https:// www. loc8.com/about/

Didn't realise it was Australian owned:

Back in 2004 our founders, Owen and David, believed there had to be a better way to collect asset data in the field. With a keen interest in mapping and GIS systems, they began developing the first Loc8 mobile application while working in a downstairs verandah at Owen's house. Smartpath and the Loc8 framework were born.

A few years later, with a core team of ten and a common desire to work in a creative, open and flexible business, the Loc8.com editions were released to enterprise organisations.

These days that group of ten are still with us, along with many new staff located in our offices in Sydney, Melbourne, London, and New York.

yuloni · 01-11-2014 1:39am

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SpaceTime · 01-11-2014 1:20pm

To be realistic, the UK and US websites that won't accept non-local postcodes and zip codes are not likely to change just because we now have postcodes.

If a UK address is checking non UK codes against the UK post office database that's just stupid. It should know when you select the country as anything other than UK that it shouldn't do that.

The one that drives me mad is official EU agency forms that give insufficient space for any Irish or British addresses.

Something like

Street

Number

Postcode

City

Because we all apparently live in Belgium or Germany.

I've also had US sites refuse anything other than a phone number in the format (xxx) xxx xxxx

Poor website design will always be an issue when people don't bother to think beyond their own local market yet try to trade internationally.

Curly Judge · 01-11-2014 2:40pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

To be realistic, the UK and US websites that won't accept non-local postcodes and zip codes are not likely to change just because we now have postcodes.

If a UK address is checking non UK codes against the UK post office database that's just stupid. It should know when you select the country as anything other than UK that it shouldn't do that.

The one that drives me mad is official EU agency forms that give insufficient space for any Irish or British addresses.

Something like

Street
Number
Postcode
City

Because we all apparently live in Belgium or Germany.

I've also had US sites refuse anything other than a phone number in the format (xxx) xxx xxxx

Poor website design will always be an issue when people don't bother to think beyond their own local market yet try to trade internationally.

I've always just written in "none" when asked for a post or zip code.
Seems to have worked most of the time?

SpaceTime · 01-11-2014 2:45pm

Curly Judge wrote: »

I've always just written in "none" when asked for a post or zip code.
Seems to have worked most of the time?

CORK 02100 is mine

larchill · 02-11-2014 5:59pm

I've used IRL001.

fricatus · 02-11-2014 9:33pm

Waterford 90210 for me.

yuloni · 05-11-2014 8:30pm

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ukoda · 05-11-2014 10:46pm

yuloni wrote: »

As I was driving along this morning I thought quietly to myself that perhaps eircode could be on it's way to becoming another Irish Water

I land home and RTÉ has this!!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1105/657111-eircode/

Good point from Sinn Fein:

Eircode has never been tested or trialled in real-world use cases. Please someone tell me otherwise

Worrying point by Pallet Express:

Pallet Express are one of the big trunkage networks in the country for those not familiar with logistics (there's also PalTrans, Pallet Network, etc...)

His claims of not being approached go against what Capita and Alex White have stated about engaging with all parties

He also mentions the issue of non-sequential codes and how this offers nothing for simple delivery grouping... an example I mentioned a few posts back

ADD: The FTA done a presentation to the Oireachtas today against eircode (http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/11/05/coded-warning/)

Also, either I'm physic, people are reading my mind or most likely, I sub-consciously heard it on the radio... but there seem to be a few people comparing eircode to Irish Water!

It's funny how the guy from pallet express doesn't think it can help him with deliveries. It just shows how ignorant of its abilities he is. If they pay the few hundred for database access he can do route optimisation easily

Also, I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare it irish water, it's had maybe 2 slightly negative articles online, it's only a handful of people with a vested interest who think its not useful, I don't think we'll see any "no to eircode" protests around the country*

*Well maybe one in Cork...maybe around the crosshaven area...

yuloni · 05-11-2014 11:05pm

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Impetus · 06-11-2014 12:02am

ukoda wrote: »

It's funny how the guy from pallet express doesn't think it can help him with deliveries. It just shows how ignorant of its abilities he is. If they pay the few hundred for database access he can do route optimisation easily

Also, I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare it irish water, it's had maybe 2 slightly negative articles online, it's only a handful of people with a vested interest who think its not useful, I don't think we'll see any "no to eircode" protests around the country*

*Well maybe one in Cork...maybe around the crosshaven area...

In virtually all European countries one has for each address:

Road nam/street name + number
Postcode (ie district number) and town name

1040 route d'Antibes is 100m from 1140 route d'Antibes. No postccode crap necessary - subtract two numbers on the street and you can see how far away they are.

In Ireland townlands can have one or more roads, which can easyily be identified by adding 1, 2, 3 etc after the road name. The houses along the road's name can be given metric numbers. A house 500m down the road from its origin has a house number 500..

06600 Antibes is the town

D22 8GHJ Dublin is meaningless. Expensive to create nationally and useless to truckers, couriers, An Post, visitors, customers, and anybody else who has reason to visit an address.

Ireland has had sequential house numbers for centuries in urban streets. I have never heard of somebody living at number 223 complaining that house number 224 or 225 is just next to them. Why then should postcodes be random? Why should each house have a postcode? No other country on the planet does thiss aside from Iran. How dumb and bureaucratic can it get?

The Eircode is the stupidest, most useless, and expensive code system in the world. Anyone involved with Eircode should resign - do the honourable thing.

Oirish Water style incompetence applied to "postcodes"!

my3cents · 06-11-2014 12:23am

Impetus wrote: »

In virtually all European countries one has for each address:

Road nam/street name + number
Postcode (ie district number) and town name

1040 route d'Antibes is 100m from 1140 route d'Antibes. No postccode crap necessary - subtract two numbers on the street and you can see how far away they are.

In Ireland townlands can have one or more roads, which can easyily be identified by adding 1, 2, 3 etc after the road name. The houses along the road's name can be given metric numbers. A house 500m down the road from its origin has a house number 500..

06600 Antibes is the town

D22 8GHJ Dublin is meaningless. Expensive to create nationally and useless to truckers, couriers, An Post, visitors, customers, and anybody else who has reason to visit an address.

Ireland has had sequential house numbers for centuries in urban streets. I have never heard of somebody living at number 223 complaining that house number 224 or 225 is just next to them. Why then should postcodes be random? Why should each house have a postcode? No other country on the planet does thiss aside from Iran. How dumb and bureaucratic can it get?

The Eircode is the stupidest, most useless, and expensive code system in the world. Anyone involved with Eircode should resign - do the honourable thing.

Oirish Water style incompetence applied to "postcodes"!

There have to be unique postcodes for each address because the current address system is such a mess. If UK style postcodes were used in Ireland you could easily have 2 or more houses that still have the same address and same postcode, its even likely there would be houses with the same address same postcode and with occupants with the same surname. Ireland never really embraced the idea of house numbers so now its got to have postcodes that are unique to each address to make up for it.

yuloni · 06-11-2014 12:23am

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a65b2cd · 06-11-2014 8:44am

yuloni wrote: »

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No matter what system is introduced, you can be sequential with only 2 other codes and even that can be fairly meaningless when the code is alphanumeric e.g. xy versus xa. A code in sequence is meaningless particular for something such as delivering parcels. How often does a parcel delivery company deliver to two addresses next door to each other? If it does happen the deliverers might just look at the text address!!!

As previously mentioned the ECAD file can be used to arrange Eircodes by street or house number order if necessary. The very formal structure of the database will permit grouping of codes in many different ways. Of course you have to be willing to pay for the database ...

Tow · 06-11-2014 10:13am

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

From experience, I can tell you that DPD's Belgium website requires a postcode to be entered to send a parcel to Ireland. It will refuse to take Dublin 7, D7, DUB7 or anything which makes sense. Including DPD's own depot codes. They will quite happily take your parcel if you phone then up, explain the problem and book over the phone. The parcel will be collected and all will go well until the parcel reaches their Belgium depot and it gets sorted. At this point the workers in the depot will see there is no postcode and promptly return the parcel to the senders address...

Sam Russell · 06-11-2014 10:25am

my3cents wrote: »

There have to be unique postcodes for each address because the current address system is such a mess. If UK style postcodes were used in Ireland you could easily have 2 or more houses that still have the same address and same postcode, its even likely there would be houses with the same address same postcode and with occupants with the same surname. Ireland never really embraced the idea of house numbers so now its got to have postcodes that are unique to each address to make up for it.

The problem cited here is that we do not have unique addresses for aprox 50% of destinations. You do not solve that with a post code - the underlying problem needs to be solved.

Local authorities (Co. Councils) should be required to sort this out by giving each household their official address, and then errect road signs to reflect this. Maybe it should fall to the Revenue as they collect the property tax from every domestic address, and other taxes from companies. It is a simple problem that is easy to tackle as they managed the property tax quite efficiently.

To implement the postcde system before correcting the address problem is putting the cart before the horse. It is not too late to modify the proposed system to satisfy the problems cited by the likes of DHL the other delivery companies. That afterall is one benefit of computers.

SpaceTime · 06-11-2014 1:58pm

It's a solution that's solving an entirely unrelated problem.

We need to be able to FIND the locations.

This system just creates a random unique identifier.

It's about as much use as a landline phone number. In fact, you could just link a phone number (landline or mobile) to a database with a map and it would do the same job.

01 = Dublin Area
671 = Central north of the river.
XXXX = random line number.

Or

021 = Cork
427 = Central Island containing the city centre core.
XXXX = random line number.

So basically I can tell as much or possibly more from an eircom landline structure than an eircode.

Bit pointless really.

ukoda · 06-11-2014 2:28pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

So basically I can tell as much or possibly more from an eircom landline structure than an eircode.

Bit pointless really.

what do you need to tell from it? how will a sequence be of any use to you in your day to day life? pls give a real example of how a sequential code will be of benefit to you?

Someone wants you to vist them, they give you their address which includes eircode, what do you care about the neighbours ericode? nothing?

If you are route planning you use route planning software (which you probaly already have) to optimise a route based on eircodes.

If you wish to group houses, you query the eircode databse (see the examples of queries you can run in the document i posted) theres pretty much a limitless amount of queries.

Splinter · 06-11-2014 2:47pm

But the query will only work based on the sorting offices in the area. It's not actually going to be able to tell you who's on a street or block without you having the full address.

Sequential benefits courier companies, or even food delivery companies in that they can route plan more effectively.

ukoda · 06-11-2014 2:51pm

Splinter wrote: »

But the query will only work based on the sorting offices in the area. It's not actually going to be able to tell you who's on a street or block without you having the full address.

Sequential benefits courier companies, or even food delivery companies in that they can route plan more effectively.

No thats totally incorrect, read the product guide for eircode that i posted a few pages back

If you have the eircode you can get the full address plus any alias address and any other info you want, including geo coordinates. it has nothing to do with sorting offices

you can route plan far more effectively if you integrate eircode to your system.

If we were still back in 1960, yes sequestial would help as youd have no software or sat navs. today, its not an issue

SpaceTime · 06-11-2014 2:54pm

You'd be surprised.

Many small delivery operators have no such software and plan routes fairly manually.

ukoda · 06-11-2014 2:57pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

You'd be surprised.

Many small delivery operators have no such software and plan routes fairly manually.

they can still do that.... or they can make an investment in software to help their business

and ive yet to get an actually example of how sequential system would help a person in any day to day scenario

SpaceTime · 06-11-2014 3:02pm

You can manually group parcels in a van for example.

How will a van driver even be able to group and sort stuff unless you've software that prints new labels ?

Not everything revolves around database access and advanced levels of automation.

Being able to intuitively read a code is a very useful feature for something like this.

Bear in mind Ireland hasn't always got house or building numbers so, is not going to be any easier to do that.

Yeah it's possible but it's far from industry norm and mostly the codes will only be useful for high level sorting.

For local level delivery they're pretty unintuitive and not very useful.

The delivery company would have to relabel all the packages with route sequences or something so the driver could quickly ascertain which codes relate to which street.

From reading the package there's no more info than already on the address : vague area / district .

ukoda · 06-11-2014 3:04pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

You can manually group parcels in a van for example.

How will a van driver even be able to group and sort stuff unless you've software that prints new labels ?

Not everything revolves around database access and advanced levels of automation.

Being able to intuitively read a code is a very useful feature for something like this.

Bear in mind Ireland hasn't always got house or building numbers so, is not going to be any easier to do that.

oh for god sake...the address will be on the parcel too. he can still group by street/townland/housing estate

SpaceTime · 06-11-2014 3:10pm

ukoda wrote: »

oh for god sake...the address will be on the parcel too. he can still group by street/townland/housing estate

And Irish addresses as we all know are as useful as a chocolate teapot and read like a short Shakespearian sonnet.

The whole point was a code overlay that would solve this WITHOUT redesigning the whole addressing system thus keeping colloquial old somewhat useleas addressing format by completely bypassing it.

gives up and concludes government is just completely incompetent.

ukoda · 06-11-2014 3:16pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

gives up and concludes government is just completely incompetent.

They are! and in general i dont think Capita are a good company tbh. but i still argue that eircode isnt a disaster. Its quite useful if people calm down and think about it

i dont buy this "has to be sequential stuff". i think thats people thinking about postcodes with a 1960 view and not a modern view

Sam Russell · 06-11-2014 7:19pm

It is the actual format of the code that is at fault.

The first bit is too short. D04 is a very large area. XXXX is inpenetrable to a human.

Making the first bit 5 digits long, and the second bit three characters long, we would have a first part long enough to identify a cluster of postcodes of less than 100 addresses, which for most people would be a code they would happily use. If it used the phone number system format as a guide the most people would have an idea where the cluster was located in the country. That alone would be a head start.

I think everyone knows 01 is dublin with 021 is Cork and 061 is Limerick. Currently, except for the Dublin postcodes (D1, D2, D4, etc.) there is no public information. The launch could be in two phases. The first 5 digits, followed when it was considered useful, the last three characters. In urban areas, the 5 digit code takes you down to 100 or so metres, while in remote areas, it might be to a Km. Useful for the delivery of parcels and for a fire-engine.

I cannot envisage how the proposed Eircode system coud be used by a van-delivery outfit without equipement supplied for every person involved. Licence fees alone would rule it out.

SpaceTime · 06-11-2014 7:28pm

The only way it could possibly work is that the van delivery company comes up with its own internal codes for routes, or uses Loc8 or something similar and then translates all the Eircodes to that and sticks new labels on the packages.

The code on the package is basically completely useless to anyone who isn't plugged into a database all the time.

It might work for the very big operators who have that kind of hand-held technology, but for anyone else, it's not really ideal.

SpaceTime · 06-11-2014 7:38pm

What I would say is that I'd rather this be rolled out RIGHT rather than just a rushed job or for the sake of pushing forward because they've gone too far with the wrong system.

If we get this wrong we're stuck with it for at least half a century.

Sam Russell · 06-11-2014 9:08pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

What I would say is that I'd rather this be rolled out RIGHT rather than just a rushed job or for the sake of pushing forward because they've gone too far with the wrong system.

If we get this wrong we're stuck with it for at least half a century.

I hope that is not the case. We managed to re-do the phone numbers, and even did it gradually. The TV system has been changed and the radio service has been revamped (a bit). The actual code could be changed quite easily if it is a 0ne-for-one swap.

Life changes quicker these days. However, it is better RIGHT than right-now.

SpaceTime · 06-11-2014 10:41pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I hope that is not the case. We managed to re-do the phone numbers, and even did it gradually. The TV system has been changed and the radio service has been revamped (a bit). The actual code could be changed quite easily if it is a 0ne-for-one swap.

Life changes quicker these days. However, it is better RIGHT than right-now.

The phone numbering system's largely unchanged for probably 50 years at least. The basic structure emerged in the late 50s and all that happened was new area codes, longer numbers and then rationalisation of area codes to make bigger ones.

It's been divided into those regions for a very long time.

yuloni · 06-11-2014 11:32pm

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a65b2cd · 07-11-2014 12:06am

Yes, it is a very good and logical structure but these guys want sequential codes and commonality at street level and they are talking about that enabling them to save tens of millions:

... [Mr. Neil McDonnell:] The companies here today span the freight, parcel and energy sectors. Delivery to Irish homes and businesses is their day job. They know what they are talking about and they estimate that savings in the order of tens of millions of euro annually can be passed to the public via an efficient postcode system.

So let us say that saving would be say 10% of their total costs so their businesses have costs of hundreds of millions wow!

yuloni · 07-11-2014 12:20am

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Bray Head · 07-11-2014 12:19pm

I am totally unconvinced by the costs argument as put forward by the industry. I looked at some CSO data (I cannot post a link as I am a 'new user')

Turnover by the road transport industry (NACE code 4941) was 2.4bn in 2012. Purchases (this includes essentially all costs bar wages) was a full 1.6bn. An eircode license cost in the low thousands is barely going to make a difference to these firms' cost base.

The CSO data show wages are in the region of 400m for the industry. The data don't make it clear but let's make a conservative estimate that a quarter of purchases are on fuel, so another 400m. You will only need very small productivity improvements relating to this 800m bill on fuel and wages to make an eircode license worthwhile.

This is how UPS and FedEx have grown their market share and made a lot of customers since the 1980s. A lot of investment in route optimisation software (eircode will make a huge difference with this). They even design uniforms so that the driver's pen is on the opposite side to what he writes with as when they studied it they found that it speeds up the signing process for the customer.

Some firms in Ireland clearly want to persist with a low-cost, low-margin, low-productivity business model. If this is what they want fair enough, but it's not a valid reason for opposing eircode. My own suspicion is that the arrival of eircode will make a lot of local knowledge that exists in their workers' heads redundant. This will make it easier for other firms to enter the market and damage the incumbent business model.

Bray Head · 07-11-2014 12:27pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

You'd be surprised.

Many small delivery operators have no such software and plan routes fairly manually.

The quill pen is a functional way of writing and is superior to scratching things on rocks. But no one uses quill pens any more as we have fountain pens, biros, and keyboards which are much cheaper.

What do you think is the future for firms that fail to adopt technologies that could boost their productivity substantially?

Tow · 07-11-2014 1:58pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Some firms in Ireland clearly want to persist with a low-cost, low-margin, low-productivity business model. If this is what they want fair enough, but it's not a valid reason for opposing eircode. My own suspicion is that the arrival of eircode will make a lot of local knowledge that exists in their workers' heads redundant. This will make it easier for other firms to enter the market and damage the incumbent business model.

It is the companied who employ their own driver or two for local deliveries who will loose out with the current proposed system. The they wont pay the costs to computerise their delivery system, and subscribe to eircode.

SpaceTime · 07-11-2014 3:07pm

Bray Head wrote: »

The quill pen is a functional way of writing and is superior to scratching things on rocks. But no one uses quill pens any more as we have fountain pens, biros, and keyboards which are much cheaper.

What do you think is the future for firms that fail to adopt technologies that could boost their productivity substantially?

The problem is that these firms work to standard business models.

You're expecting a van driver to key every code on every item to figure our what order they need to be delivered in and provinding them with no way of doing that without accessing a database.

For small delivery companies and subcontractors this means the system is very limited in what it can be used for.

The best case scenario would be that they have to translate the eircode into something meaningful to the driver first and apply labels to every item.

That's adding huge amounts of double handling that isn't necessary in other markets where a driver can clearly see which items need to be grouped by glancing at the postal codes.

The system really needs to be machine friendly and human friendly.

You've also created a situation where everyone will be tied into a monopoly database supplier.
If costs are too high or the technology is poorly implemented that's a huge problem too.

National Postcodes to be introduced

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