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2 Carriage Darts

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  • 28-05-2014 9:23pm
    #1
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭


    Ok, I get that two carriage darts save electricity, and IE want to cut costs.
    But here's the thing. The 18:45 Dart from Bray to Howth is a two carriage train. This is still peak time.
    And people are on top of each other by the time it reaches Connolly.
    The following three darts are four carriage darts and they are nearly empty by the time they reach Connolly. This is NOT peak time.
    Are Iarnrod Eireann taking the Michael with this? Or is there a good explanation?
    I am all ears. :rolleyes:


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    #2
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    The apologists will bring no good explanation, because there is none. There is not much electricity saved by running a two-car train; in fact, what with forcing an extreme crush load in there, it strains the traction motors and makes them draw more current than an eight-carriage train.

    Really makes it seem like there was no purpose to shutting down the DART on weekends to extend the platforms for eight-car trains, does it? especially when other railways elsewhere extended platforms without shutting down service.


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    #3
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    MGWR wrote: »
    The apologists will bring no good explanation, because there is none. There is not much electricity saved by running a two-car train; in fact, what with forcing an extreme crush load in there, it strains the traction motors and makes them draw more current than an eight-carriage train.

    Really makes it seem like there was no purpose to shutting down the DART on weekends to extend the platforms for eight-car trains, does it? especially when other railways elsewhere extended platforms without shutting down service.

    I personally think it's some kind of warped work to rule against Varadkar's hard line attitude to Irish Rail. There is no other explanation. Pi$$ off the public enough and the government will bail them out.


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    #4
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    I personally think it's some kind of warped work to rule against Varadkar's hard line attitude to Irish Rail. There is no other explanation. Pi$$ off the public enough and the government will bail them out.

    some say bail them out, i and others say, give them enough money to operate the railway, governments need to realize public transport can't run on thin air (sure i'm the first to say irish rail don't help themselves but i think with good management and leadership things could be turned around) . Varadkar IMO needs to put his ideologies asside and work on behalf of all methods of public transport, IE can make all the savings and cost reductions it likes but if the subsidy is wiped away once they do then how eventually are we going to keep some sort of a decent service? this policy can only end in one way surely?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Are you suggesting they should make cost savings but keep their current subsidy too, resulting in a profit? The subsidy is there to cover losses, if they don't make losses, they don't need a subsidy.


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    #6
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    Are you suggesting they should make cost savings but keep their current subsidy too, resulting in a profit?

    yes, but with a forced contract that it will be invested back in improving the infrastructure and improving journey times and frequency, if they fail they get punished.
    corktina wrote: »
    The subsidy is there to cover losses, if they don't make losses, they don't need a subsidy.

    in theory thats true, however we need to make improvements to speed, journey times and ideally frequency, so my suggestion above of keeping the current subsidy meaning they make a proffit but it be contractually enforced that it be invested back in major improvements should be considered.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #7
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    There are no more changes to subsidies from now until 2017.


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    #8
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    lxflyer wrote: »
    There are no more changes to subsidies from now until 2017.

    I will beleive in 2017 and not before :rolleyes:


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    #9
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I will beleive in 2017 and not before :rolleyes:

    The NTA have stated that quite clearly, and it is also stated in the recent CIE Group annual reports.


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    #10
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    Ok, I get that two carriage darts save electricity, and IE want to cut costs.
    But here's the thing. The 18:45 Dart from Bray to Howth is a two carriage train. This is still peak time.
    And people are on top of each other by the time it reaches Connolly.
    The following three darts are four carriage darts and they are nearly empty by the time they reach Connolly. This is NOT peak time.
    Are Iarnrod Eireann taking the Michael with this? Or is there a good explanation?
    I am all ears. :rolleyes:

    It boils down to where the set swaps from longer to shorter trains take place. Bear in mind that there are two depots, one at Bray, the other at Fairview. Therefore some of the set swaps take place at Bray, others at Connolly.

    If a train starts in Bray, it's more likely that the swap takes place there. If the train starts in Greystones, it's more likely that the swap happens at Connolly.


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    #11
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It boils down to where the set swaps from longer to shorter trains take place. Bear in mind that there are two depots, one at Bray, the other at Fairview. Therefore some of the set swaps take place at Bray, others at Connolly.

    If a train starts in Bray, it's more likely that the swap takes place there. If the train starts in Greystones, it's more likely that the swap happens at Connolly.
    Are you trying to apologise for the above scenario?
    Surely they should synchronise it in such a way that rush hour has four carriage darts and after that put on the 2 carriage darts. Not exactly rocket science. A monkey could come up with a better planned strategy. If peak time commuters are on top of each other in two carriages, and non peak four carriage darts are nearly empty, what is the point of doing this?


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    #12
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The NTA have stated that quite clearly

    they would hardly lie to us now would they? i'd imagine the NTA gets the money from government so ultimately they will do what their told?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #13
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    Are you trying to apologise for the above scenario?
    Surely they should synchronise it in such a way that rush hour has four carriage darts and after that put on the 2 carriage darts. Not exactly rocket science. A monkey could come up with a better planned strategy. If peak time commuters are on top of each other in two carriages, and non peak four carriage darts are nearly empty, what is the point of doing this?



    Do you normally attack someone for giving you an answer?


    I am merely explaining why you can find a 2-car DART followed by a 4-car DART, which is what you were asking originally.


    Sorry for bothering to try and give you an answer. I won't bother in future.


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    #14
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Do you normally attack someone for giving you an answer?


    I am merely explaining why you can find a 2-car DART followed by a 4-car DART, which is what you were asking originally.


    Sorry for bothering to try and give you an answer. I won't bother in future.
    Sorry if it came across that way.
    But your answer was like an idiotic answer that an Irish Rail stationmaster would give.
    Why don't they leave the first train from Bray as a 4 carriage and then do the swap for the next train instead? Or the later trains instead?
    18:45 from Bray - 2 Carriage
    18:55 from Bray - 4 Carriage
    19:10 from Bray - 4 Carriage
    19:25 from Bray - 4 Carriage


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    #15
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    Sorry if it came across that way.
    But your answer was like an idiotic answer that an Irish Rail stationmaster would give.
    Why don't they leave the first train from Bray as a 4 carriage and then do the swap for the next train instead?
    18:45 from Bray - 2 Carriage
    18:55 from Bray - 4 Carriage
    19:10 from Bray - 4 Carriage
    19:25 from Bray - 4 Carriage



    Just because it isn't what you want to hear does not mean that it isn't right. You've now managed to insult me twice, by suggesting my answer was idiotic.


    Rostering sets is an extremely complex process and is nowhere near as straightforward as you seem to think - it boils down to where sets need to end up for servicing or to start the next day, whether there are drivers available to perform the set swaps later, and where the trains are starting from.


    I can't comment on that specific circumstances of that train as I have nothing to do with IE, I was merely trying to explain it in simple layman's terms.


    However, you seem incapable of allowing anyone with an insight into how these things generally work even attempt to offer you an explanation.


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    #16
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    There isn't a big yard full of trains in Bray...they arrive and then depart again in the opposite direction (assuming that's where they turn round). It's very complex. The 18.55 from Bray wouldn't have arrived there in all probability at 18.45 to do as you suggest


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    #17
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    really 4 cars or more needs to be the order of the day through out the peak times, with the 2 cars kept for the night services with little usership, IE do need to do more to tackle the overcrowding problem on services, we can talk about service rostering all we like but its not the problem of the customer in fairness, its up to irish rail to know the services that are likely to be packed and match the capacity, yes sometimes services can catch people out but in most cases the packed and empty services can be figured out

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #18
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It boils down to where the set swaps from longer to shorter trains take place. Bear in mind that there are two depots, one at Bray, the other at Fairview. Therefore some of the set swaps take place at Bray, others at Connolly.

    If a train starts in Bray, it's more likely that the swap takes place there. If the train starts in Greystones, it's more likely that the swap happens at Connolly.

    Id have to disagree with that, alot of sets swaps from greystones trains take place in bray especially for reducng train size


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    #19
    Biffo The Bare
    Registered Users Posts: 291 ✭✭Biffo The Bare


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Just because it isn't what you want to hear does not mean that it isn't right. You've now managed to insult me twice, by suggesting my answer was idiotic.


    Rostering sets is an extremely complex process and is nowhere near as straightforward as you seem to think - it boils down to where sets need to end up for servicing or to start the next day, whether there are drivers available to perform the set swaps later, and where the trains are starting from.


    I can't comment on that specific circumstances of that train as I have nothing to do with IE, I was merely trying to explain it in simple layman's terms.


    However, you seem incapable of allowing anyone with an insight into how these things generally work even attempt to offer you an explanation.

    But why do something if it is not having the desired effect? The desired effect is not to have empty trains. Obviously their process is not working.
    Stuffing people like sardines onto one train, while the following trains are empty. I have seen this too.
    And they are so pedantic about the process. I asked the station manager in Shankill about it, and his answer was "There are going to be single carriage darts in the Summer.":D
    As if the process is working so well, lets refine it some more. idiots.


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    #20
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    As I live in Bray, next door to the station, I have noticed one thing about this two carriage dart situation. The result of the reduction in carriages has resulted in a full bray yard throughout the day. A year or two ago it used to have two stabled 8 carriage commuter sets which were used for the morning rush hour and will be used for the evening runs to maynooth and dundalk. Now because the yard is full, they need to be brought in from drogheda/pearse without being on the timetable which results in more wasted fuel and manhours just to accommodate the dart stabling throughout the day. Makes no sense in my eyes to have two carriage darts which are very poorly timetabled


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    #21
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    davidlacey wrote: »
    Id have to disagree with that, alot of sets swaps from greystones trains take place in bray especially for reducng train size


    I did say "more likely" - I didn't say they all did!!

    Biffo The Bare wrote: »
    But why do something if it is not having the desired effect? The desired effect is not to have empty trains. Obviously their process is not working.
    Stuffing people like sardines onto one train, while the following trains are empty. I have seen this too.
    And they are so pedantic about the process. I asked the station manager in Shankill about it, and his answer was "There are going to be single carriage darts in the Summer.":D
    As if the process is working so well, lets refine it some more. idiots.



    As I said above, it depends upon:
    1) Drivers available to split the sets and shunt them away
    2) Sets being available to swap
    3) Where sets need to be - some may need to get back to Fairview for servicing
    4) Sets may need to be at a particular location for the start of the next day


    Rostering trains where you are swapping them at different locations will always end up with some oddities like a four car set following a two car.


    However, I'd say to the OP that he/she should contact IE directly about that train - they have changed set lengths around before since the shorter trains were introduced.


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    #22
    Biffo The Bare
    Registered Users Posts: 291 ✭✭Biffo The Bare


    lxflyer wrote: »

    However, I'd say to the OP that he/she should contact IE directly about that train - they have changed set lengths around before since the shorter trains were introduced.

    That will work.:D
    Please Mr station master. "Can you tell the person responsible to change the 18:45 dart to a four carriage and instead make an subsequent off peak train 2 carriage."
    :pac:


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    #23
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    surely a better way of scheduling servicing/maintenence can be found that doesn't effect services, irish rail really need to deal with the problems, short darts at peak times. commuter trains doing long distance services still. intercity railcars doing commuter services still. nothing changes, just more of the same

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #24
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Biffo The Bare wrote: »
    That will work.:D
    Please Mr station master. "Can you tell the person responsible to change the 18:45 dart to a four carriage and instead make an subsequent off peak train 2 carriage."
    :pac:



    Nothing ever happens if you sit back and say nothing.


    Get in touch via email or twitter.


    As someone who has always been proactive with the transport companies, I can assure you that if you approach it the right way you can get results.


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    #25
    Biffo The Bare
    Registered Users Posts: 291 ✭✭Biffo The Bare


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Nothing ever happens if you sit back and say nothing.


    Get in touch via email or twitter.


    As someone who has always been proactive with the transport companies, I can assure you that if you approach it the right way you can get results.
    Last time I tried talking to an IE employee about the 2 carriage situation, he replied with "There will be one carriage darts in the summer." Those guys have no sense of responsibility or what's right.
    It's them against the world.


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    #26
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Biffo The Bare wrote: »
    Last time I tried talking to an IE employee about the 2 carriage situation, he replied with "There will be one carriage darts in the summer." Those guys have no sense of responsibility or what's right.
    It's them against the world.

    Well let's be honest you don't ask that sort of question of someone working in a booking office. They are not responsible for that - they're usually someone on a lower wage whose job is to sell tickets.

    You send in an email to Head Office for the attention of the operations department.

    If you had a gripe about something in a shop would you address your concerns to a salesman or address them to the manager?

    You've got to send your views to the appropriate people.

    Making smart comments like "that'll never work" frankly is defeatist.


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    #27
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Biffo The Bare wrote: »
    Last time I tried talking to an IE employee about the 2 carriage situation, he replied with "There will be one carriage darts in the summer." Those guys have no sense of responsibility or what's right.
    It's them against the world.

    You will find out big time about their sense of responsibility very soon.
    They are among the highest paid train drivers on the planet, and guess what, it's not enough. :pac:


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    #28
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well let's be honest you don't ask that sort of question of someone working in a booking office. They are not responsible for that - they're usually someone on a lower wage whose job is to sell tickets.

    You send in an email to Head Office for the attention of the operations department.

    If you had a gripe about something in a shop would you address your concerns to a salesman or address them to the manager?

    You've got to send your views to the appropriate people.

    Making smart comments like "that'll never work" frankly is defeatist.

    - the last line you said there is very appropriate for irish rail in general


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    #29
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well let's be honest you don't ask that sort of question of someone working in a booking office. They are not responsible for that - they're usually someone on a lower wage whose job is to sell tickets.

    You send in an email to Head Office for the attention of the operations department.

    If you had a gripe about something in a shop would you address your concerns to a salesman or address them to the manager?

    You've got to send your views to the appropriate people.

    Making smart comments like "that'll never work" frankly is defeatist.

    - the last line you said there is very appropriate for irish rail in general


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    #30
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The NTA have stated that quite clearly, and it is also stated in the recent CIE Group annual reports.

    Words are cheap and as the NTA don't hold the purse strings their word is nothing. I hope they are right and it won't be cut however it is far form a guarantee in my book.


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    #31
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,321 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    end of the road wrote: »
    surely a better way of scheduling servicing/maintenence can be found that doesn't effect services, irish rail really need to deal with the problems, short darts at peak times. commuter trains doing long distance services still. intercity railcars doing commuter services still. nothing changes, just more of the same

    The very same things you said in your post was happening last Friday evening during the BH weekend. Before I was approaching Tara Street station; a commuter train left the station was a 6 carriage ICR. The train was spotted crossing the bridge as I was walking along Burgh Quay to get my train home that evening. I thought to myself "What a huge waste for IE" as I thought it's fleet management process is still flawed to a great degree.

    Just a few minutes later; a DART to Howth arrived at platform 1 which I assume was the 18:45 train from Bray which arrived sometime before 19:30. The 2 carriage train was full to the brink as it arrived; stopping at the very top end of the platform which meant all the passengers that had to sit down at the lower end had to walk all the way up the platform only having to realise it was completely packed.

    I know that it is usually the norm with a lot of DART trains now but do you think that IE would stop this nonsensical practice in this day and age as lot of passengers do see it as a great inconvenience after getting home from a hard day at work.

    The DART I got home to Greystones was a four carriage. The next DART I had seen at Grand Canal Dock was a 4 or a 6 carriage train to Malahide in which all of them were the original LHB carriages.


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