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Irish retailers.

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  • 30-07-2013 3:29pm
    #1
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭


    Why are some irish retailers still refusing to offer value,back in the day they were all at it,Today i went to a closing down sale to find that the stock was only marked 20% off,even when they are going out of business they would rather throw the products out than offer value.

    Up until aldi and lidl entered the marked,we were being ripped off by these stores its despicable.{homstead missed a beat not opening their own stores}

    Since the horse meat scandal fresh meat prices have gone through the roof,its not like stores are running out of meat,expired packets of meat are still being thrown out. you would think if anything they would be keeping the prices the same if not lower,meat is in demand but not at a shortage.

    its just like a couple of years ago when petrol prices went through the roof,so people switched to diesel and even though diesel contains less oil than petrol they manage to raise the price to that of petrol ''just to spit in the face of consumers''.

    its not right,and yet these local business are protected for ripping us off,in a few towns i know of councils have refused aldi or tesco's planning permission to protect local business. at the expense of the community and in jobs.


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    #2
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    So you wanted to benefit from someone's misfortune in losing their livelihood and were not happy at the level of reduction. And all of a sudden it's a blanket criticism of Irish retailers. Nice.

    A shop going out of business will do so with massive debts. These don't disappear when the business closes, so they try to maximise income and minimise liabilities such as VAT at the end. Contrary to what you think, selling everything off cheaply is not the best way to do that.

    Local businesses are not generally trying to rip people off. I come from a family where there are a number of shops around the country, different types so I have fair knowledge of how they are run.

    One example was a ladder Lidl were selling at €19.99 in their stores a while back. My family member with a hardware store couldn't even buy them at cost for less than €22 before VAT, and a contribution to the running costs of the shop (staff, vat, insurance, rates, light, heat) and that's before a single cent of profit. Because he was one shop buying maybe six at a time from the importer. Lidl would buy tens of thousands at least. Bulk buying massively reduces the costs.

    Local businesses, particularly shops, try to supply the community, to provide the products locals need, and to make enough income so that they can provide for themselves and their families and use the services of other local companies, hire local people in their businesses. They struggle to compete with the likes of Lidl and Aldi and that's why hundreds of businesses are closing every month. And I for one don't think that's a good thing.

    Incidentally, the price of diesel increasing is to do with taxation, not the petrol stations.


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    #3
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    i dont for one minute accept this,many local owned business in mortgage or rent free premises,still charge 20 or 30% more than other bigger shops for branded goods,they charge what they believe they can get away it,but obviously they are not as smart as they think,as thankfully most of these greedy businesses are on the decline.

    there is no excuse for it.


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    #4
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    i went to a closing down sale to find that the stock was only marked 20% off,even when they are going out of business they would rather throw the products out than offer value.
    What makes you think they are throwing them out? what was this shop name and what the business is (if not obvious).

    If it was say a hardware shop they might have an agreement with another shop to sell all the unsold stock to them and decide where to place the % themselves.
    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    its not like stores are running out of meat,expired packets of meat are still being thrown out.
    The meat near expiry is sold off in my local tesco. I know a guy who worked in a deli counter in another supermarket and they cooked the food which was near its use by.
    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    still charge 20 or 30% more than other bigger shops for branded goods
    They might be paying 50% more than the big shops. WHen online selling got more popular you used to hear of people moaning that the shops would not match the online price they found, but they could well have made a loss if they did. yet ironically the disgruntled shopper would head off saying "your loss", when they refused to sell at a loss.


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    #5
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    i dont for one minute accept this,many local owned business in mortgage or rent free premises,still charge 20 or 30% more than other bigger shops for branded goods,they charge what they believe they can get away it,but obviously they are not as smart as they think,as thankfully most of these greedy businesses are on the decline.

    there is no excuse for it.

    Rates, insurance, heat, light, staff costs - do you have any idea HOW much those cost :eek: Clearly not. The big international retailers often get special deals from utility suppliers again for bulk, they also have purpose built facilities which are more efficient to heat and light than local businesses.

    Whether you accept it or not, local businesses are there to service the locality, not to rip people off - I'm talking as someone with some genuine knowledge here.

    If you don't like it, shop elsewhere, in the big companies that take their profits out of the country, the ones who have lowered the price farmers are getting for their dairy and meat products that many of them are also going out of business too. Nobody forces you to shop local, if you don't like it, vote with your feet.


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    #6
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Rates, insurance, heat, light, staff costs - do you have any idea HOW much those cost :eek: Clearly not. The big international retailers often get special deals from utility suppliers again for bulk, they also have purpose built facilities which are more efficient to heat and light than local businesses.

    Whether you accept it or not, local businesses are there to service the locality, not to rip people off - I'm talking as someone with some genuine knowledge here.

    If you don't like it, shop elsewhere, in the big companies that take their profits out of the country, the ones who have lowered the price farmers are getting for their dairy and meat products that many of them are also going out of business too. Nobody forces you to shop local, if you don't like it, vote with your feet.

    What are the costs to run a small corner shop in an owned building? you do understand that a lot of these ''rip off'' business employ no one and dont even open on a sunday?


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    #7
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Even if they got all employeess and overheads for free they still might not be able to compete.

    From 2009
    Boxes of Pampers nappies that are being sold at €25 to Irish retailers are available for €10 in Britain. The Sunday Business Post sourced cases of Coca-Cola that typically sell for €9 in Ireland for €5.60 (»5) in Britain.

    Price lists acquired by this newspaper showed a huge disparity in the prices which suppliers in Ireland are charging retailers compared to the prices British suppliers are charging.

    ‘‘The prices differences are huge, but this should not let the big retailers like Tesco with pan-European buying power off the hook,” said one medium sized independent retailer One large retailer said it had approached the British outfits directly, but many refused to open an account that bypassed the Irish office.

    ‘‘It is important to remember that the Irish market is extremely small, so when there is trouble, they simply shrug their shoulders,” he said.

    ‘‘They have passively decided they are not going to do anything about it.” The retailer said he felt ‘‘absolutely powerless. The finger is consistently being pointed at us for being too expensive, but the vast majority of us are not making huge profits’’......

    REI said a comprehensive survey of 20,000 products found that the Euro supplier price was less than the UK supplier price in less than 1 per cent of cases.

    ‘‘Something is seriously wrong when standard grocery brands are up to 250 per cent more expensive when sourced by retailers in Ireland than in Britain,” Fitzsimons said

    ‘‘The anti-competitive practice of many fashion and cosmetic brand owners who refuse to allow Irish retailers to buy in sterling, instead insisting on euro payment at a premium of sometimes 50 per cent on the sterling price, will in effect lead to significant business closures.......

    Publicans (most knowingly) wrongly make out that everybody pays the same wholesale price, this is why they go on about supermarket below cost selling, while they can provide no evidence of it being widespread. In the UK it was investigated and below cost selling was VERY rare.

    Some UK based shops can avail of these huge differences in wholesale prices.


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    #8
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,915 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    Why are some irish retailers still refusing to offer value,back in the day they were all at it,Today i went to a closing down sale to find that the stock was only marked 20% off,even when they are going out of business they would rather throw the products out than offer value.

    Any stock not sold during the sale will be disposed of by the liquidator at auction after the shop closes. With banks in the recent past making business owners sign personal guarantees while taking out business loans the small retailer risks loosing their home if they can't clear the debt with the disposal of the shop and it's contents.
    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    Up until aldi and lidl entered the marked,we were being ripped off by these stores its despicable.{homstead missed a beat not opening their own stores}

    Since the horse meat scandal fresh meat prices have gone through the roof,its not like stores are running out of meat,expired packets of meat are still being thrown out. you would think if anything they would be keeping the prices the same if not lower,meat is in demand but not at a shortage.

    its just like a couple of years ago when petrol prices went through the roof,so people switched to diesel and even though diesel contains less oil than petrol they manage to raise the price to that of petrol ''just to spit in the face of consumers''.

    its not right,and yet these local business are protected for ripping us off,in a few towns i know of councils have refused aldi or tesco's planning permission to protect local business. at the expense of the community and in jobs.

    How much does it cost you, it both money and your personal time, to get to these shops selling cheaper items. I look at the cost to myself as well as my wallet when I buy things. Something could be €5 cheaper than a local shop, but it'll cost you a lot more in time and fuel to buy it.


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    #9
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    A typical sheeple attitude is rising here,we all know they rip consumers off,get real.


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    #10
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    ,we all know they rip consumers off
    That's the sheeple attitude if anything, blindly believing they are making a fortune based on prices in other shops. The ripoff forum is full of it, its very rare to see a genuine ripoff which is worthwhile alerting people of.


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    #11
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    rubadub wrote: »
    That's the sheeple attitude if anything, blindly believing they are making a fortune based on prices in other shops. The ripoff forum is full of it, its very rare to see a genuine ripoff which is worthwhile alerting people of.

    i dont think they are making a fortune...they were back in the 90s but not now,and i think charging an elderly person with no car an extra 50c or 1e on each item is a rip off. i know many shops that do this. they charge more because they have no competition in their local area.


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    #12
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    i dont think they are making a fortune...they were back in the 90s but not now,and i think charging an elderly person with no car an extra 50c or 1e on each item is a rip off. i know many shops that do this. they charge more because they have no competition in their local area.

    You "know" that :confused: If you can prove it, then I will believe it.


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    #13
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    A typical sheeple attitude is rising here,we all know they rip consumers off,get real.

    And with that particular phrase, any argument has been rendered null and void, and most intelligent people will write your off as a crank.


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    #14
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    athtrasna wrote: »
    You "know" that :confused: If you can prove it, then I will believe it.

    yup anyone who lives in the country are aware of this,you dont have to answer but are you from dublin?


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    #15
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    yup anyone who lives in the country are aware of this,you dont have to answer but are you from dublin?

    FWIW - I'm not. I have indepth knowledge and personal experience in shops from corner shops and supermarkets to household and hardware stores all over the country. Actual facts, and figures, real people, real stories.

    These are the people who answer the door on Christmas Day when someone runs out of gas, or have forgotten to buy batteries for the toys (usually the people who shop in Lidl etc but come local when they actually need something). The people who sponsor local clubs and festivals, who donate to local charities, all in the spirit of community. The people that Tesco and Lidl and Aldi and people like you are forcing out of business. I don't know a single shopkeeper who wanted to "rip anyone off".

    Your speculation borders on cruel, it's supposition not fact. You have yet to prove your accusation "yup anyone who lives in the country are aware of this" is not proof.


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    #16
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    @eireannBEAR Please contribute constructively to the discussion, rather than replying with generalisations like "sheeple" and asking people where they are from.

    dudara


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    #17
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,915 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    i dont think they are making a fortune...they were back in the 90s but not now,and i think charging an elderly person with no car an extra 50c or 1e on each item is a rip off. i know many shops that do this. they charge more because they have no competition in their local area.

    So they pay an extra few Euro to purchase in a shop they can walk too rather than run an expensive car, which will be at least €1000 per annum with tax/insurance/fuel/servicing and repairs. If I could do that I'd be much happier. Don't a lot of local shops offer free delivery now? While the majors charge.

    The reason why these shops are more expensive is that it cost them more to buy the products. The big companies can go direct to manufactures and get major bulk discounts. The average shop keeper will have to go the cash and carry to buy the stock they need. The cash and carry's may not even buy direct from a manufacture. So for an item to reach your local shop it may have passed through 4 or 5 other businesses, including haulage, whereas the major supermarket deals direct with the manufacturer and has their own distribution centre. How can a local shop match this and still survive.


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    #18
    MBSnr
    Registered Users Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    Just to wade in... Sometimes I really don't think the local shops help themselves. I'm not talking about pricing/expense of items as such as much of that is out of their control. The issue I find most with my local shops is that they don't display their pricing in a clear manner or it's incorrect and out of date! I generally don't have any idea how much some things cost until I get to the till. If all the prices where listed correctly (surely not too much of a task), then I could decide whether it's worth my while travelling further to save a few Euro. As it is, I get frustrated and think, you know what, I'll get it in Tesco's when I next pass it.

    My local Spar (no receipts given out so can't tell what was at what price), my local hardware store (where they print everything on an A4 multilayer duplicate receipt - surely these cost money to buy in?), a medium size supermarket and many others all have this issue. It seems to be a rural shop thing where displayed prices are optional....


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    #19
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    MBSnr wrote: »
    Just to wade in... Sometimes I really don't think the local shops help themselves. I'm not talking about pricing/expense of items as such as much of that is out of their control. The issue I find most with my local shops is that they don't display their pricing in a clear manner or it's incorrect and out of date! I generally don't have any idea how much some things cost until I get to the till. If all the prices where listed correctly (surely not too much of a task), then I could decide whether it's worth my while travelling further to save a few Euro. As it is, I get frustrated and think, you know what, I'll get it in Tesco's when I next pass it.

    My local Spar (no receipts given out so can't tell what was at what price), my local hardware store (where they print everything on an A4 multilayer duplicate receipt - surely these cost money to buy in?), a medium size supermarket and many others all have this issue. It seems to be a rural shop thing where displayed prices are optional....

    have you never gone in to a local shop and paid 10 or 12e for four items that would of cost you 6 or 7e in a super market??

    they can offer better value,its just some of them refuse to.


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    #20
    MBSnr
    Registered Users Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    have you never gone in to a local shop and paid 10 or 12e for four items that would of cost you 6 or 7e in a super market??

    they can offer better value,its just some of them refuse to.

    Yes I have paid over the odds to get a few items and been shocked at the price. Could they offer it at a lower price and provide better value? I'd imagine some could if they amended their business practices. However 'knowing' my local Spar franchise, they would still charge the same price even if they reduced their overheads... They have no competition in or around the local area, they know it, so why would they bother offering better value?

    Also I get the distinct impression many shops operate the same as they have always for years. I guess if they managed to still be open in 2013 they aren't about to change anything now.


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    #21
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    have you never gone in to a local shop and paid 10 or 12e for four items that would of cost you 6 or 7e in a super market??

    Yes, but there is a massive difference in the operating models between a local neighbourhood store and a multiple retailer. There are certain cost differences that just can't be overcome.
    they can offer better value,its just some of them refuse to.
    I do agree that some of the local retailers could offer "better" value, I just think they can't offer the same value.


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    #22
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    OP:

    Businesses open to make a profit, not to provide good value. They only provide cheap prices where there's a market for those cheap prices and where they have to offer cheap prices.

    In more competitive markets, like the US and say Germany, prices are lower because they're more competitive.

    I'd suggest you read up on elasticity of demand !


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    #23
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    i still cant grasp how homestead never opened public shops!!!
    at one stage they had 4000 products,could you imaging if they copied the aldi or lidl platform in ireland during the 80s and 90s!


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    #24
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Because homestead are just a private label supplier. I'd assume they were quite comfortably making a profit and doing OK as just that and didn't need to open shops.

    Even Centra and SuperValu don't own shops. They're a 'symbol group' which means they're just a name above the door, a marketing, purchasing and distribution system and a local retailer owns the shop.

    Homestead could have opened stores, but clearly that's not their business model.

    Lidl could open a wholesale supply business, but that's not what they've opted to do either.


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    #25
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    Tesco make roughly 7% margin on your shop. Let be generous and say it's gone to 10%. How is a small corner shop, and we're not talking about franchises here which have buying power through the franchise, supposed to survive on a 10% margin?

    Even if they are pulling in €10,000 a week which is highly unlikely they're making €1000 profit before VAT and overheads.

    Even Spar et al aren't profitable running at the margins Tesco do, even if they could avail of the wholesale prices Tesco can, which for the most part they can't. It's simply an economy of scale.

    You want the Walmart phenomenon happening in rural Ireland OP?


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    #26
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    LowKeyReturn wrote: »
    .

    You want the Walmart phenomenon happening in rural Ireland OP?

    we have this already with aldi and lidl.

    my objection is the protection the receive from local councils,at the cost of a big supermarket that would create more jobs and offer better value.


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    #27
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    I don't know who Homestead are but have you any idea of the cost of selling to individual punters in wages costs alone? For some businesses adding that to their business model simply doesn't make sense.


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    #28
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    we have this already with aldi and lidl.

    Oh no we dont. Aldi and Lidl do not open gigantic superstores specifically to close out local markets. Once the local town is decimated, close their operation and centralise it to the nearest major city and increase their prices.

    Which is WHY local councils protect small businesses. You're already complaining about lack of competition. Why do you thing a large supermarket would do anything different without competition?


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    #29
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    LowKeyReturn wrote: »
    I don't know who Homestead are but have you any idea of the cost of selling to individual punters in wages costs alone? For some businesses adding that to their business model simply doesn't make sense.

    you never heard of homestead,did you not grow up with their products?


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    #30
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭enricoh


    A new supermarket in a small town reduces jobs not adds jobs. As the local butcher's, greengrocers etc closes the market for local vedg growers, bakers disappears.
    Go to north co.dublin n see all the empty glasshouses, used to be packed with people working n u now get your dutch tomatoes in tesco, lidl etc


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    #31
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    enricoh wrote: »
    A new supermarket in a small town reduces jobs not adds jobs. As the local butcher's, greengrocers etc closes the market for local vedg growers, bakers disappears.
    Go to north co.dublin n see all the empty glasshouses, used to be packed with people working n u now get your dutch tomatoes in tesco, lidl etc

    you have to understand we are talking about small towns,aldi and lidl have been opened in kildare for 10 years,and we have not lost one butcher or important shop in that time.

    we lost a couple of little family news agents,but 2 out of 3 of those families have opened up different business.

    at one time you couldnt buy a pair of socks in kildare now you dont need to leave the town,these big shops opened the town up to new businesses and attracted commuters and shoppers.


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