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Virgin Media subscriber numbers

12467

Comments

  • #152
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    JTMan wrote: »
    YoY movements really show where the business is going:
    Analogue cable TV down 21%.
    Digital cable TV down 5%.
    MMDS down 25%.
    Broadband up 4%.
    Landlines up 6%.

    MMDS are on a rapid decent before next years switch off.
    Analogue cable down significantly.
    Digital cable numbers getting effected by early signs of cord cutting.
    Broadband up but not significantly.
    Generally unwanted landlines only up thanks to being included in forced bundles.

    The Liberty results say that Irish "homes passed" includes 100k homes that cannot get two-way communications. Is this MMDS capture area or is it homes in areas with very old coper wires?

    I imagine the TV subscribers drop is more down to the Horizon platform they've continued to push despite being fundamentally flawed rather than cord cutting.

    On the other hand Sky subscriber numbers have gone up YoY, despite being more expensive.

    It would suggest that a portion, if not most, of upc's losses were a defection to sky who have a far more stable platform.


  • #153
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    Kensington wrote: »
    I imagine the TV subscribers drop is more down to the Horizon platform they've continued to push despite being fundamentally flawed rather than cord cutting.

    Not really. Cord-cutting is a worldwide phenomenon growing apace as broadband speeds increase. TWC have introduced a monthly cap of 300GB in the States to attempt to stop the flow. A futile exercise.

    My parents have Horizon and the thing works perfectly. I'm with Sky. I'd love to have Horizon.


  • #154
    JTMan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,542 ✭✭✭JTMan


    Exactly. While the quality of the VM set top box is probably a factor, the much bigger long term trend factor is cord cutting. Globally, less and less people are willing to pay for bundles of crap TV stations that they rarely watch when there are streaming alternatives.


  • #155
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    JTMan wrote: »
    Exactly. While the quality of the VM set top box is probably a factor, the much bigger long term trend factor is cord cutting. Globally, less and less people are willing to pay for bundles of crap TV stations that they rarely watch when there are streaming alternatives.

    You've only partially quoted me.

    UPC numbers down but Sky are up.

    If it was true cord cutting we would be seeing drops across the whole market, as is the situation in the US, which is not the case here.


  • #156
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Kensington wrote: »
    You've only partially quoted me.

    UPC numbers down but Sky are up.

    If it was true cord cutting we would be seeing drops across the whole market, as is the situation in the US, which is not the case here.

    Cord cutting! 10 years time.

    Until the time that Ireland has a proper broadband structure, this trend simply will not emerge. Satellite television is as strong as ever in Europe. in Ireland its a mixture of both dvb-t/dvb-s particularly on second sets.

    Sky's figures and other pay only companies will always be skewed when people are cancelling one contract and re-subbing under another name to avail of "DEALS", something that pay tv companies don't report, a bit like drops in live and active subscription numbers. :)


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  • #157
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,673 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Liberty Global (Virgin Media) Q4 2015 numbers published yesterday (in brackets, quarter on quarter +/-)
    http://www.libertyglobal.com/pdf/press-release/LG-Earnings-Release-Q4-15-FINAL.pdf

    Video Subscribers - 365,500 (-10,100)
    --- Analogue Cable - 32,100 (-1,200)
    --- Digital Cable - 311,200 (-7,200)
    --- MMDS - 22,200 (-1,700)
    Internet - 371,200 (-100)
    Telephone - 358,100 (+200)

    Total Subscribers - 1,094,800 (-10,000)
    Premises - 497,400 (-6,200)

    Mobile Subscribers - 7,600 (6,500)


  • #158
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    TV and Broadband numbers down, that is big news. First time broadband numbers have dropped.

    To be honest I think Virgin have been pretty idiotic pushing up the broadband prices at a time when competition is heating up (Virgin launching their own TV service, big Eir rebranding, Sky Q, competitive bundle deals from Sky and Eir, etc.).

    Also no numbers from their new mobile service, the launch of which seems to have been a damp squid so far.


  • #159
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    bk wrote: »
    TV and Broadband numbers down, that is big news. First time broadband numbers have dropped.

    To be honest I think Virgin have been pretty idiotic pushing up the broadband prices at a time when competition is heating up (Virgin launching their own TV service, big Eir rebranding, Sky Q, competitive bundle deals from Sky and Eir, etc.).

    Also no numbers from their new mobile service, the launch of which seems to have been a damp squid so far.

    Reaching saturation with all services now. Competition up. It will happen to all provides. But the upping of prices on a yearly basis is suicidal. Goose, etc.


  • #160
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,588 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That it takes 6 months minimum usually before a huge bulk of subscribers start paying the higher prices as well as the induced leavers (I've dumped multiroom HD entirely, for instance) cannot be helping their financials and likely leads to *another* round of hikes each time


  • #161
    Joo0
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭Joo0


    Bleak times for Virgin. The Netflix issue and the price increase won't do their broadband numbers any good.


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  • #162
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    And surely the deterioration in the quality of customer service must be making a contribution to the overall loss of customers?


  • #163
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    And the closure of MMDS with no obvious replacement cannot help. Why did they not go for an Eircom wholesale deal for those customers?


  • #164
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,673 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Why did they not go for an Eircom wholesale deal for those customers?
    Many of these MMDS customers are probably in rural areas where Eir fibre is either not available or too far from the exchange or cabinet for stable IPTV service.


  • #165
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,588 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Liberty also disposed of their UK DSL business so they may be uninterested in entering that market again


  • #166
    bob11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 470 ✭✭bob11


    bk wrote: »
    TV and Broadband numbers down, that is big news. First time broadband numbers have dropped.

    To be honest I think Virgin have been pretty idiotic pushing up the broadband prices at a time when competition is heating up (Virgin launching their own TV service, big Eir rebranding, Sky Q, competitive bundle deals from Sky and Eir, etc.).

    Also no numbers from their new mobile service, the launch of which seems to have been a damp squid so far.

    Mobile Subscribers
    Dec. 31, 2015
    Liberty Global Group:

    Ireland ............ 7,600


  • #167
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    bob11 wrote: »
    Ireland ............ 7,600

    Ouch! Even worse then I thought!


  • #168
    Joo0
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭Joo0


    bk wrote: »
    Ouch! Even worse then I thought!

    Not surprising considering the price of it after the free trail!


  • #169
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Joo0 wrote: »
    Not surprising considering the price of it after the free trail!

    Plus trying to push customers into additional 12 month contracts in certain circumstances was hardly a good idea either.


  • #170
    JTMan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,542 ✭✭✭JTMan


    - 38,000 TV customers lost YoY. Wow! Linear TV bundles are declining at a fast pace.
    - 7,800 broadband customers gained YoY. Pathetic.
    - Landline numbers rigged again thanks for more forced bundling with people who don't even use a landline. Virgin really should have an active landline customer number.
    - Piracy, cord cutting, free-to-air satellite and IPTV packages must be hitting Virgin hard.
    - Pathetic mobile number. Early days but clearly not everyone wants 'quad play'.
    - Only 32k analogue subscribers left in Ireland and none in the UK. The lower this number gets the closer analogue cessation day gets.

    - Future looks bleak for TV for Virgin declines are going to continue for some time as TV shifts online.
    - Broadband looks like it is plateauing. Perhaps, this is driven by broadband-only offerings and increased product competition and increased price competition.


  • #171
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    dub45 wrote: »
    Plus trying to push customers into additional 12 month contracts in certain circumstances was hardly a good idea either.

    No different to Eircom.


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  • #172
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Irrespective of who is doing it it's crazy to attempt to extend broadband contracts by 12 months if you want to make your mobile product attractive.


  • #173
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    JTMan wrote: »
    - Only 32k analogue subscribers left in Ireland and none in the UK. The lower this number gets the closer analogue cessation day gets.

    That is just the number of people who are only subscribed to analogue TV and not also Digital TV/Broadband. Many if not most Broadband and Digital TV subscribers use the analogue TV service as a "free" multiroom.

    While I'm certain they will eventually stop this service (as LGI are currently doing in other European markets) I also think that they need to do so very carefully and offer an alternative to the Digital TV and broadband customers. Such as free unencrypted DVB-C service for people with broadband/digital TV subs.

    If they instead just shut it down and try and force an expensive digital TV sub on broadband customers and expensive multiroom sub on Digital TV subscribers, I think they will see a big backlash and many people leaving for their competitors. They need to handle this very carefully.
    JTMan wrote: »
    - Broadband looks like it is plateauing. Perhaps, this is driven by broadband-only offerings and increased product competition and increased price competition.

    I think it is a combination of them having saturated their market footprint, while Eir (and it's resellers) offer a "good enough" alternative and people not being happy with Virgin's broadband price increases and unnecessary speed upgrades that most people don't want or need.

    UPC won so much market share by always offering the fastest speeds combined with the lowest prices. While they are still the fastest, their broadband is now relatively expensive while Eir's broadband is fast enough for most people.

    I think LGI made a major mistake with the rebrand to Virgin. I think they thought people would like the new brand and see it as a premium service and they took the opportunity to hike prices.

    But it seems they were wrong, the Virgin rebrand has been tacky and people aren't happy with the price increases and instead it has given people the idea that Virgin bought UPC and just increased prices for no reason. Thus I think LGI have seriously damaged the Virgin brand in Ireland right out of the box!!

    Really, really bad management and marketing decisions IMO.

    In order to correct this, I think they are going to have to drop prices again and offer some very sweet deals (like the free TV + Broadband for €45 they offered last year *) or they will lose lots more customers to the stronger competition IMO.

    * BTW I assume this deal last year was an attempt to keep the falling digital TV numbers up, which I'm sure would have been much worse had they not.
    dub45 wrote: »
    Irrespective of who is doing it it's crazy to attempt to extend broadband contracts by 12 months if you want to make your mobile product attractive.

    Agreed, specially when what you are offering is more expensive that what you can get from competitors with no bundling or contract required.

    It was a very poor launch and offering and I think they need to seriously rethink their approach to the mobile market if they want any success with it.
    7upfree wrote: »
    No different to Eircom.

    Well Eir does bundle mobile with their other offerings, they also have the Meteor brand, which offers competitive standalone mobile products. A clever market segmentation by Eir which allows them to get the best of both worlds.


  • #174
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,867 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    The rebrand to Virgin seemed to have more to do with Liberty's internal reporting structure and the fact that they decided, at group level, that Ireland would report through the UK rather than via UPC Broadband.

    The Dutch operation (the original UPC) was taken out of UPC at the same time and now reports as a separate unit in its own right. We now know that was a precursor to this unit entering into a JV with Vodafone Netherlands, which is an interesting move and I wonder if it lays down a marker for future co-operation between Vodafone and Liberty,


  • #175
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, a merger between Virgin UK & Ireland and Vodafone makes a lot of business sense.

    Vodafone is relatively weak in the fixed broadband and TV market (in the UK more then Ireland), while Virgin are relatively strong. On the other hand Virgin are very weak in the mobile market, while Vodafone are strong there. From a business perspective, that would make for a good combination.


  • #176
    scamalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    icdg wrote: »
    The rebrand to Virgin seemed to have more to do with Liberty's internal reporting structure and the fact that they decided, at group level, that Ireland would report through the UK rather than via UPC Broadband.

    That tells a lot when people who are at top management get disillusioned with money poring in and thinking of expanding in worst way possible.

    mobile service-when Ireland is already saturated with major companies reselling its services to anyone with a bit of cash,thus while one has option to choose from almost 10 providers there are like 3 major ones reselling services,and to jump into that is like jumping into train wreck.

    Virgin media-not sure who thinks is a premium brand but its not anywhere close in Ireland to be recognized as such,given that company itself is involved in everything theres possible from banking to aviation,shops.
    and that alone id imagine cost millions just to change stickers and logos,which in turn could of been spent on advancing existing services and keeping more jobs at place rather selling out and restructuring in worst way possible,and applying that cost to existing customers and people loosing jobs as such-call centers example.

    If looking at EU in general one would see that companies that provide BB rarely branch out to offer other services rather to improve existing ones,which in turn fuels more competition and improvements-which UPC failed miserably to see.

    I mean majority of people cant tell difference between speed and size when it comes to speaking of BB in Ireland,let alone using free streaming services,and other resources that fast BB beats in any way,and will further do it so.Thus lack of using existing resources and technology which is basically clicks away to get same services at little to none cost,for many seems too much to pay for,since people that use internet for email or facebook,wouldnt know a difference if their bb was 10mbs,but add cost onto that service which is already around 80-90 euros tv+bb and they see that as a rip off,which btw it is for many.

    That said with all changes and money spent upc US seems having no understanding of Ireland at all,thus this goes back into loop where they might have fastest BB for the moment which compared to many countries in EU is still pi$$ poor in speed and quality,thus services like eir,sky,vodafone are easily shredding vm,since they offer same for less which for ordinary non tech person is way better,thus no need to expand in speed but just deliver few channels and line that can stream at least 3-5mbs constantly with decent support and any speed they offer or phone,tv deals forcing upon losses more customers in advance.


  • #177
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    scamalert wrote: »
    I mean majority of people cant tell difference between speed and size when it comes to speaking of BB in Ireland,let alone using free streaming services,and other resources that fast BB beats in any way,and will further do it so.

    Got it in one. If a normal person (and I mean non-techy) hears 360 Meg broadband and "super fast broadband", they'll more than likely plump for the latter, because, as you say, speeds are academic once you go above 10 megs.

    I think even SIRO will find that out to their cost. If Virgin advertised as "Hyper Fast" they'd be better off.

    They're selling wired speeds in a wireless world. They used to be twice the speed at half the price. They have lost sight of that. And it will cost them. Dearly.


  • #178
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    7upfree wrote: »
    Got it in one. If a normal person (and I mean non-techy) hears 360 Meg broadband and "super fast broadband", they'll more than likely plump for the latter, because, as you say, speeds are academic once you go above 10 megs.

    I think even SIRO will find that out to their cost. If Virgin advertised as "Hyper Fast" they'd be better off.

    They're selling wired speeds in a wireless world. They used to be twice the speed at half the price. They have lost sight of that. And it will cost them. Dearly.

    Agree totally and thats a great summary of the situation.

    I'm fed up saying it - but from dealing with non teccy users every day virtually, what most people want is a reliable wifi service and fairly ok speed.

    I know wifi is a variable with lots of problems, but the companies could give customers a better service by providing better wi fi cards in the provided routers but definitely bridging on all equipment. And maybe even a modem only option.

    An awful lot of equipment now, including a considerable portion of laptops, has no ethernet connection. I think VM overestimate speed as a customer priority.


  • #179
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dub45 wrote: »
    I know wifi is a variable with lots of problems, but the companies could give customers a better service by providing better wi fi cards in the provided routers but definitely bridging on all equipment. And maybe even a modem only option.

    An awful lot of equipment now, including a considerable portion of laptops, has no ethernet connection. I think VM overestimate speed as a customer priority.

    In fairness, Virgin are doing exactly that with their new router which is a dual band/dual radio 802.11ac router with beam forming. Really a very good spec for an ISP supplied router, as good as I'd expect to be offered for free.

    Beyond that no ISP can do anything about the crappy 2.4GHz only 802.11n wifi cards most people have in their cheap crappy laptops nor can they do anything about local interference.

    Virgin also now support modem only option (bridging) right there in the admin interface of the new router, so power users can use their own high end router with the service.

    Basically in fairness to Virgin then have given us everything we asked for in terms of their CPE's.

    Also Liberty Global are well aware that the bottleneck is with the wifi equipment, you can find many articles from their CTO and engineers at various conferences talking about it being the primary issue they face with selling higher speed broadband.

    Of course that won't stop their marketing people from advertising the hell out of unnecessary 360Mb/s broadband etc. However as we are seeing from their stalling broadband numbers I think people are realising this and aren't willing to take big price increases for it.

    BTW The one benefit of the 360 service is the increase in upload speed to 36Mb/s, which can certainly make a difference for cloud services, working from home, etc.


  • #180
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    bk wrote: »
    In fairness, Virgin are doing exactly that with their new router which is a dual band/dual radio 802.11ac router with beam forming. Really a very good spec for an ISP supplied router, as good as I'd expect to be offered for free.

    Beyond that no ISP can do anything about the crappy 2.4GHz only 802.11n wifi cards most people have in their cheap crappy laptops nor can they do anything about local interference.

    Virgin also now support modem only option (bridging) right there in the admin interface of the new router, so power users can use their own high end router with the service.

    Basically in fairness to Virgin then have given us everything we asked for in terms of their CPE's.

    Also Liberty Global are well aware that the bottleneck is with the wifi equipment, you can find many articles from their CTO and engineers at various conferences talking about it being the primary issue they face with selling higher speed broadband.

    Of course that won't stop their marketing people from advertising the hell out of unnecessary 360Mb/s broadband etc. However as we are seeing from their stalling broadband numbers I think people are realising this and aren't willing to take big price increases for it.

    BTW The one benefit of the 360 service is the increase in upload speed to 36Mb/s, which can certainly make a difference for cloud services, working from home, etc.

    But the new router is only available on the 360 product thereby introducing a "digital divide" and as you say people are not going for that.

    The horizon product mitigates against any sort of decent wifi by its inevitable placing and really needs a bridging option.

    Other isps at least seem to allow their equipment to be bridged as a matter of course.


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  • #181
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dub45 wrote: »
    But the new router is only available on the 360 product thereby introducing a "digital divide" and as you say people are not going for that.

    The horizon product mitigates against any sort of decent wifi by its inevitable placing and really needs a bridging option.

    Other isps at least seem to allow their equipment to be bridged as a matter of course.

    Some people on 240Mb/s have also gotten the new router. I'd say they are simply running down the stock of the old routers and once gone, all customers, 240Mb/s or 360Mb/s will get the new router.

    Bridging also works fine on the old router, it is just a little harder to setup as you have to do it by command line rather then GUI.

    People on Horizon can get a router with a simple request to spilt the services.


  • #182
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I think it depends which old router you mean. I don't think its on the TC7200. You can use other method, but far from simple.

    De-Consolidating (splitting) the modem from the Horizon box used to incur a charge. Not sure if it still does.


  • #183
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    beauf wrote: »
    I think it depends which old router you mean. I don't think its on the TC7200. You can use other method, but far from simple.

    I've my TC7200 bridged, it involves using a command line, but only takes about 5 minutes and not really difficult if you can follow instructions.
    beauf wrote: »
    De-Consolidating (splitting) the modem from the Horizon box used to incur a charge. Not sure if it still does.

    It doesn't any more and hasn't for quiet a while now.

    In fairness, they seem to have taken onboard most of the complaints those of us had about their broadband service and have worked towards correcting them.


  • #184
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cool do you have a link to that command line? I'm going to set up a new ac router at the weekend.


  • #185
    scamalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    go to networking section,or use search ,type in your cisco docsis model into search should bring you to main forum and theres sticky on the top made years ago,just follow first couple pages,its using opera or whatever to open up source code and replace with full one on router to enable extra functions if i remember correctly-since upc made cuts on functions,thus what your doing is basically bringing them back.

    Also think you cant do hart reset once its in place,but that said,i would work out some deal to get new router instead,since they ran quite long promotion on their new 360 deal,and i added extra 5 that i got hit with as means to get newer router and better speed,since them old boxes are real crap,specially after works began with vm overtaking things,thus hadn't any issues so far compared as before needing to reset router after running some download or stream that would completely drain all mac addresses and start to crash on me every time i or someone else used BB.

    that said wifi is also better can easily get uploads over 36,but speed is still around 40mbs-that said there are few options to boost hz on it to strengthen signal,also capable wifi card is required on the pc end to handle stronger signal and support for n,c protocols that can handle well over 100mbs,and also interference is still huge player even if all done correctly.

    Thus while VM made many mistakes still at least they pushed far beyond other ISPs to deliver more speed,rather then living in 2000,that said they didnt account that most use wireless nowadays-thus bottleneck on their block that everyone speaks of,still new to whats causing it,but lack of education on people that use service and usually expect at least near speeds on wireless cost them a fair bit.


  • #186
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The TC7200 I have is not a Cisco. Anyway I have no problems with 120gb I don't need 360gb other than to get a better modem to get better WiFi features. I must ring for a better deal anyway.


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  • #187
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,673 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Liberty Global (Virgin Media) Q1 2016 numbers published today (in brackets, quarter on quarter +/-)
    http://www.libertyglobal.com/pdf/press-release/LG-Earnings-Release-Q1-16-FINAL.pdf

    Video Subscribers - 332,600* (-10,700*)
    --- Analogue Cable - 30,900 (-1,200)
    --- Digital Cable - 301,700 (-9,500)
    --- MMDS - (see note below*)
    Internet - 367,700 (-3,500)
    Telephone - 355,200 (-2,900)

    Total Subscribers - 1,055,500* (-17,100*)
    Premises - 468,200* (-7,000*)

    Mobile Subscribers - 10,500 (2,900)

    *Note: As a result of their decision to discontinue the MMDS service, they have excluded subscribers to their MMDS service from the numbers reported above effective January 1, 2016, which resulted in a reduction 22,200. The estimated figure at MMDS shutdown on April 18th was just under 10,000 subscribers.


  • #188
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Putting aside the expected drop in MMDS customers * a drop of 17,000 digital TV and broadband customers has to be very concerning.

    I have to say the rebranding to Virgin Media was very poor and the following significant price increases has hurt them significantly.

    I think they thought rebranding to Virgin would give them a PR bump that would allow them to increase prices, but clearly they were very wrong about that. Eir had a much more successful rebrand and both Eir and Sky are kicking them in advertising and value for money with their bundles along with Vodafone.

    The market is much more competitive now and increasing prices so much in the face of this competition was a very bad move. I think they need to get back to the UPC of old of undercutting Eir, et al. while offering much higher speeds.

    Their entrance into the mobile market has been very poor and hamfisted. No 4G and prices higher then existing MVNO's, not disruptive at all.

    * The loss of the MMDS customers is not necessarily bad for them, they can likely make significant savings in shutting down the MMDS towers and gear and other various support costs. It is possible that the loss of these remaining customers won't actually be an over all lose.


  • #189
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I don't think its the price. Its the terrible software, terrible billing and abysmal support.

    Faster speed means nothing if most people can't get it. Most people might get better speeds at their laptop, desktop or mobile with other networks because their equipment is better for the non-technical consumer.

    The Horizon box is a buggy mess. There's a lot of filler content too.

    Speed increases and bill increases are terrible value in the above context.


  • #190
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    beauf wrote: »
    Faster speed means nothing if most people can't get it. Most people might get better speeds at their laptop, desktop or mobile with other networks because their equipment is better for the non-technical consumer.

    In fairness, their new 360Mb/s service does come with a new high quality 802.11ac wireless router, which genuinely fixes most peoples wireless issues and delivers great speeds.

    They also now semi-officially support bridging.

    These were the two complaints people had above Virgins broadband service and in fairness to them, they seemed to have listened to us and fixed both.

    Hopefully they are also listening to peoples complaints about Horizon and will fix that too [1]

    I agree that their support has taken a significant drop in quality and they need to sort that again! [2]

    [1] They seems to be a new, advanced, 4k set top box coming to Virgin UK soon. No one seems to know if it will be TiVo based or Horizon based, but it will be interesting to see if we end up getting this same box here, similar to how we have gotten the same wireless router as Virgin UK too now.

    [2] We have been here before, we had a massive drop in support quality after UPC took over NTL. Over time they built up the quality of the support until it was very good. The quality has dropped significantly again now that they have off-shored it. I think this was a big mistake, just look at the mess Tesco Mobile has now found itself due to their poor off-shored support. Virgin better improve this in face of pretty excellent support at Sky, Virgin and Eir.


  • #191
    JTMan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,542 ✭✭✭JTMan


    The Cush wrote: »
    Liberty Global (Virgin Media) Q1 2016 numbers published today (in brackets, quarter on quarter +/-)
    http://www.libertyglobal.com/pdf/press-release/LG-Earnings-Release-Q1-16-FINAL.pdf

    Video Subscribers - 332,600* (-10,700*)
    --- Analogue Cable - 30,900 (-1,200)
    --- Digital Cable - 301,700 (-9,500)
    --- MMDS - (see note below*)
    Internet - 367,700 (-3,500)
    Telephone - 355,200 (-2,900)

    Total Subscribers - 1,055,500* (-17,100*)
    Premises - 468,200* (-7,000*)

    Mobile Subscribers - 10,500 (2,900)

    [/I]

    What a dreadful set of results.
    --> TV declines are accelerating as to the structural move to online TV continues. I bet there is a decade of gradual decline ahead as TV moves online.
    --> Analogue cable numbers are reaching a level that cut off of analogue households is a more viable prospect to make room for broadband capacity. It would be interesting to see what percentage of analogue cable subscribers are analogue-only subscribers as apposed to analogue and digital subscribers.
    --> Broadband is supposed to be VM's flagship product but is declining. Sky, Vodafone, Eircom resellers and a small number of mobile-only households must be to blame.
    --> Phone stats are largely meaningless. Active phone subs would be more meaningful.


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  • #192
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    bk wrote: »
    In fairness, their new 360Mb/s service does come with a new high quality 802.11ac wireless router, which genuinely fixes most peoples wireless issues and delivers great speeds.

    They also now semi-officially support bridging.These were the two complaints people had above Virgins broadband service and in fairness to them, they seemed to have listened to us and fixed both.

    Only for the techies. Most people won't even heard of bridging. Or need it either.

    So basically we need to pay for the top broadband product to get workable router. Something they should have had years ago.

    bk wrote: »
    Hopefully they are also listening to peoples complaints about Horizon and will fix that too [1]

    I agree that their support has taken a significant drop in quality and they need to sort that again! [2]

    [1] They seems to be a new, advanced, 4k set top box coming to Virgin UK soon. No one seems to know if it will be TiVo based or Horizon based, but it will be interesting to see if we end up getting this same box here, similar to how we have gotten the same wireless router as Virgin UK too now.

    [2] We have been here before, we had a massive drop in support quality after UPC took over NTL. Over time they built up the quality of the support until it was very good. The quality has dropped significantly again now that they have off-shored it. I think this was a big mistake, just look at the mess Tesco Mobile has now found itself due to their poor off-shored support. Virgin better improve this in face of pretty excellent support at Sky, Virgin and Eir.

    Support on UPC was bad aswell. The horizon box has been bad from day one. Theres been a load of recent issue with it. Most peoples non techies IMO problems would have been billing, and the poor TV boxes vs SKY etc.


  • #193
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    When you consider that the drop in numbers was in spite of a huge marketing campaign the drop must surely be a major concern to LG.

    Also given the 30 day cancellation requirement the figures only reflect cancellations given in February so recent issues such as the Netflix problem, the new Horizon issues and the ongoing customer service issues will surely see a similar if not worse fall in the next quarter.


  • #194
    scamalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    Just went past studying coaxial service-and found it interesting that to increase speed basically what they need to do is just to remove a tv channel to make more room for RF (radio frequency space) thus you get speed increase without really changing any infrastructure.

    Then again if using coaxial -it means your using shared line,thus spikes in speed drops etc when many are connected and streaming.

    Thus only real solution is to lay fiber closer to customers and deeper into estates,but given costs they seem rather spend more cash on re-branding and using same structure to charge more.

    But dont know what to say to those who use tv service and bb,surely most people dont even need speeds past 100Mbps thus other alternatives to choose for tv services,since when price increase came in they gave free pass for anyone to move onto any other service.

    That said their old routers were crap,the Compal ones seem decent,but even that wont solve issues with wifi which 99% use at homes nowadays,thus besides either buying 200e router to boost signal and manage traffic,using directly connected cable is where you get that extra speed.


  • #195
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    JTMan wrote: »
    What a dreadful set of results.
    --> TV declines are accelerating as to the structural move to online TV continues. I bet there is a decade of gradual decline ahead as TV moves online.
    --> Analogue cable numbers are reaching a level that cut off of analogue households is a more viable prospect to make room for broadband capacity. It would be interesting to see what percentage of analogue cable subscribers are analogue-only subscribers as apposed to analogue and digital subscribers.
    --> Broadband is supposed to be VM's flagship product but is declining. Sky, Vodafone, Eircom resellers and a small number of mobile-only households must be to blame.
    --> Phone stats are largely meaningless. Active phone subs would be more meaningful.

    I think "Analogue subscribers" are people who take analogue TV as a product only.

    The actual net usage of analogue is therefore likely much higher as people use it for multiroom.

    True though that the results are dreadful for TV subs, although I don't think it's entirely cord cutting as sky are at a record high in subscriber numbers and growth Q on Q.
    Some of Virgin Media's loss likely attributed to cord cutters but I think a lot of it is down to people defecting from a flawed, unreliable and very user-unfriendly TV offering which alongside with the recent price hikes removed the previous edge Virgin Media might have had over Sky on price.


  • #196
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    JTMan wrote: »
    --> Analogue cable numbers are reaching a level that cut off of analogue households is a more viable prospect to make room for broadband capacity. It would be interesting to see what percentage of analogue cable subscribers are analogue-only subscribers as apposed to analogue and digital subscribers.

    The number quoted is people who are analogue only. It doesn't include people on Digital TV or Broadband only, who use the analogue TV service as a "free" multiroom.

    I think Virgin will have to be very careful about switching off analogue TV without any replacement * as they risk devaluing their digital TV and broadband products.

    * In other EU markets where they have switched off analogue TV, they have replaced it with up to 60 free unencrypted DVB-C channels. I think Virgin Ireland will have to do something similar in order to support their digital TV and broadband products or risks losing more costumers to Freesat, etc.
    beauf wrote: »
    So basically we need to pay for the top broadband product to get workable router. Something they should have had years ago.

    You can easily buy your own router and use it with their 240Mb/s service with excellent results, as I do (200Mb/s over 802.11n).

    I agree that they should also supply the new Compal router with the 240Mb/s, I suspect that when they run out of supplies of the old router, they will start doing that.

    In some ways it is quiet understandable. The new compal router isn't just a better wifi router, it is also supports far more DOCSIS channels. It thus must be significantly more expensive for Virgin then the old router.

    Remember that Sky is also still supplying a crappy single radio 802.11n router to most of their broadband customers. Only people who sign up to the new, very expensive Sky Q TV service, get their new improved 802.11ac router. So Virgin certainly aren't alone in doing this.
    scamalert wrote: »
    Just went past studying coaxial service-and found it interesting that to increase speed basically what they need to do is just to remove a tv channel to make more room for RF (radio frequency space) thus you get speed increase without really changing any infrastructure.

    Sort of, the reality is vastly more complicated then that.

    scamalert wrote: »
    Then again if using coaxial -it means your using shared line,thus spikes in speed drops etc when many are connected and streaming.

    The same with GPON FTTH and the whole internet in general. Unless you are paying thousands per month, no one is getting uncontended connectivity.
    scamalert wrote: »
    Thus only real solution is to lay fiber closer to customers and deeper into estates,but given costs they seem rather spend more cash on re-branding and using same structure to charge more.

    Virgin/UPC Ireland has spent in the region of 500 million upgrading almost their entire network with Fibre very deep into the network (close to peoples homes) and have even upgraded much of the coax to support much higher bandwidth!

    The 240Mb/s and 360Mb/s and likely 1GB/s products we will be seeing over the next year or so, simply wouldn't be possible without the massive network upgrades that they have been doing.

    There is a lot to be critical about Virign, but investing in their network certainly isn't one. They offer by far the highest speeds in Ireland and are the only reason why Eir starting rolling out FTTC.
    scamalert wrote: »
    That said their old routers were crap,the Compal ones seem decent,but even that wont solve issues with wifi which 99% use at homes nowadays,thus besides either buying 200e router to boost signal and manage traffic,using directly connected cable is where you get that extra speed.

    The new compal modem supports dual channel, dual radio, 802.11ac wifi. It is a massive improvement in wifi performance and should fix most peoples wifi problems.

    Also you certainly don't need to spend €200 on a good router. The Archer C8 is one of the best 802.11ac routers on the market and costs just €100 and there are plenty of very good options for €50 too. The new Compal has comparable performance to these.
    Kensington wrote: »
    Some of Virgin Media's loss likely attributed to cord cutters but I think a lot of it is down to people defecting from a flawed, unreliable and very user-unfriendly TV offering which alongside with the recent price hikes removed the previous edge Virgin Media might have had over Sky on price.

    I agree completely, I think management has gotten their market positioning all wrong. UPC gained their market share by offering a lot more for less money. But now they seem to gone off half cocked thinking they have a premium product and can charge a premium price. I think they are in for a shock!


  • #197
    scamalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    wont argue with you mod :) seems you have more experience anyway,just pointed what i learned,the expenses well its only figure from my head.

    speaking of wifi will need to try the ac mode being close to router on 5ghz to see how it performs,but with that said there are many laptops or people using dongles that dont support the n/ac then depending on house layout how many interference obstacles many non tech people think its issues with ISP.

    as for saying shared line,phone lines are considered sort of :quote from my notebook:. The advantage that DSL has over cable technology is that DSL is not a shared medium.

    with that said thus it refers in networks course that even thou cable coax is able to support faster speeds,but phone line bb is more consistent,but offers less speed,even thou technologies are changing.

    Its wide topic so guess wont make many sense to many to go into proper workings of ISP and issues when it comes to speeds,or QoS.


  • #198
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    scamalert wrote: »
    speaking of wifi will need to try the ac mode being close to router on 5ghz to see how it performs,but with that said there are many laptops or people using dongles that dont support the n/ac then depending on house layout how many interference obstacles many non tech people think its issues with ISP.

    I can get 200Mb/s out of 5GHz 802.11n in a crowded city apartment building. Obviously older 802.11g, etc. won't see much of an improvement * but then that is like trying to get blood out of a stone and is equally true of all ISPs

    * Actually I have found better 802.11g performance out of newer routers. This is due to them usually having faster CPU's, more RAM and better antenna layouts along with better firmware, but you still can't expect miracles on 802.11g and b.
    scamalert wrote: »
    as for saying shared line,phone lines are considered sort of :quote from my notebook:. The advantage that DSL has over cable technology is that DSL is not a shared medium.

    As you say sort of true. But then only as far as the exchange or cab (for VDSL) and then it ends up getting contended on the backhaul.

    And then you have to consider that you are only trying to squeeze 30MHz of radio frequency out of a crappy unshielded copper pair! Yes, Coax is shared, but it is using a shielded coax cable capable of at least 860MHz, going right up to 5GHz depending on network design.

    I'd take a well designed HFC network over a crappy "uncontended" VDSL network any day. And you can see that from Virgins network. I've a samknows box connected to my Virgin 240Mb/s service and the monthly reports show that I'm always getting almost the full 240Mb/s. On Eir's VDSL 100Mb/s is the max possible and it can be as low as 7Mb/s depending on how far you are from the exchange!

    Saying DSL is uncontended is pure marketing and not really relevant to anyone who understands how the internet actually works. What is more important is the level of contention and congestion across the whole network and actually reported average speeds.
    scamalert wrote: »
    with that said thus it refers in networks course that even thou cable coax is able to support faster speeds,but phone line bb is more consistent,but offers less speed,even thou technologies are changing.

    Eck!! Then that wasn't a very good networking course!!!

    With the exception of FTTH, coax outperforms DSL and telecos all over the world. A modern HFC network is a competitor for gigabit FTTH, while DSL is last centuries technology.

    I recommend you spend the day watching the videos here to get a better understanding of the various technologies. You will get a much better real world view of the industry then what your networking course incorrectly tried to teach you:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6g0sFW0KhoPT6gy3Bjuv3w


  • #199
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Some how I don't think the fall in numbers is due to people who KNOW to set up their own router along side the Virgin modem or Horror box. Rather the opposite.

    My point is from the set up by their installer someone on eir will most likely get a better wifi connection than someone with the horizon box, or the older VM modems. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my perception and my experience. I've lost count of the number of none technical people who have complained to me about their VM service, many of which have switched to Sky and some other BB provider.


  • #200
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    beauf wrote: »
    Some how I don't think the fall in numbers is due to people who KNOW to set up their own router along side the Virgin modem or Horror box. Rather the opposite.

    My point is from the set up by their installer someone on eir will most likely get a better wifi connection than someone with the horizon box, or the older VM modems. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my perception and my experience. I've lost count of the number of none technical people who have complained to me about their VM service, many of which have switched to Sky and some other BB provider.

    I can echo this experience. I get to meet a considerable number of students over the course of the month and it is amazing how many of them are non teccy (contrary to general expectations) and just want a reliable wifi signal which will extend throughout the house or apartment. Most of them wouldn't even know what speed they are supposed to be on. I think VM overestimate hugely the appeal of the headline speed and underestimate the basic requirement for a good reliable wifi signal.


  • #201
    scamalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    BK course is for inside networking thus crumbs of ISP info and wireless just part to know that i found interesting,but thats were my knowledge ends.

    And as above poster said its not like tech people majority would be who changed providers.since a lot has do do with hardware which in almost many cases boxes dont even have external antennas and are just mass ordered from china,since when had old black router,3 yrs later asked for replacement got same one,and them yokes were made in early 2010 so whats inside is just out of date to handle multitasking and little place to improve beside briding.


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