Trams in Galway?

26-08-2015 11:32pm

what_traffic wrote: »

How is €500,000,000 -> €750,000,000 i.e proposed cost of the City Expressway a "cheaper" use of funding?
Or are you going to toll it for a 25/30 years to get the money back - PPP style?

Because 500 million is just a blatant lie. The figure would be in excess of 1 billion for the light rail when people who actually know what they are talking about give the estimated costs.

The benefit is also immensely greater for a bypass compared the to the few people who live close to the tram. So the cost to number of people benefited is hugely different.

ceatharloch · 27-08-2015 10:26am

You hit the nail on the head, I think, when you say the city is on an "east west axis". It is unique in this respect. Galway city / urban area is essentially a rectangle about 10km by 5km (or - pick your own numbers, make it 15km by 7km if you want). Cork is certainly quite radial, as is Limerick (i.e. these citys are pretty much circles). One might think Dublin is like Galway, but a north-south rectangle, but if you look at it its not really because of Dublin Bay - its closer to a circle with one large pizza-slice taken out of it by Dublin Bay.

My point? It is much easier, relatively speaking, to provide light rail/transit in a city that is rectangular in shape than a radial city. Even more so the longer and narrower the rectangle. With ONE line in Galway City, east-west, I guess one could cater for 50% of the population of the city. This would be impossible for one line in Dublin/Cork/Limerick. (Dublin gets pretty close to it with the DART, but even the DART on its own does not serve close to 50% of Dublin metropolitan area (let me guess - would it serve 30%?))

L'Enfer du Nord · 27-08-2015 10:31am

Why not either build, or leave space for a light rail along the route of the express way? Stops/Stations would be the biggest challenge since they’d obviously have to be accessible from both sides of the express way.

Main reason why trams are 'better' than buses is they have a far larger passenger capacity. You'd have to have a bus every couple of minutes to achieve the same capacity. I'm not expert but I can't see the cost being justified for Galway in the short or medium term. Plus Galway's population density and urban (lack of) design means that a lot of the population would be a long walk from any tram line. I'd invest in the bus system first. I've been in several similar sized cities with far more reliable bus services. I mean a huge amount of people work/study in the University/Hospital area. You'd think there's be a bus into town every five minutes a peak times on University road. Not a bit of it.

Gluas/Luas are beloved of the construction industry because of the money to be made building them and the boost they deliver to property prices. Often as not the proposed routes go through green or brown field areas. There construction they boosts property values. Metro North in Dublin for example was proposed to go to Balbrigan. In Galway terms this a bit like building a light rail to Athenry. If the advocates of Gluas are so convinced it can be done on the cheap why isn't funded on the basis that a private company can build it for supposed cost price plus X% profit but the they don't get any money until it's completed. If they so confident it can be done so cheaply then they or guaranteed X profit. I don't think this would get too many takers from the private sector. If it did we would no doubt end up with a bankrupt company and a half finish Gluas line.

Robbo · 27-08-2015 10:47am

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

Gluas/Luas are beloved of the construction industry because of the money to be made building them and the boost they deliver to property prices. Often as not the proposed routes go through green or brown field areas. There construction they boosts property values. Metro North in Dublin for example was proposed to go to Balbrigan. In Galway terms this a bit like building a light rail to Athenry. If the advocates of Gluas are so convinced it can be done on the cheap why isn't funded on the basis that a private company can build it for supposed cost price plus X% profit but the they don't get any money until it's completed. If they so confident it can be done so cheaply then they or guaranteed X profit. I don't think this would get too many takers from the private sector. If it did we would no doubt end up with a bankrupt company and a half finish Gluas line.

Not wishing to derail this (ho ho) but are you sure about Balbriggan? Not an inconsiderable distance between there and Swords where MN is currently to end.

L'Enfer du Nord · 27-08-2015 10:54am

Robbo wrote: »

Not wishing to derail this (ho ho) but are you sure about Balbriggan? Not an inconsiderable distance between there and Swords where MN is currently to end.

Sorry you are right, they want to extend the dart to Balbriggan, which does make more sense.

what_traffic · 27-08-2015 3:37pm

Luis Hallowed Drywall wrote: »

Because 500 million is just a blatant lie. The figure would be in excess of 1 billion for the light rail when people who actually know what they are talking about give the estimated costs.

You are so full of nonsense.

You cannot back up either of these statements.
€500,000,000 to €750,000,000 for the "Expressway" is the figure presented by ARUP / NRA.
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/galway-bypass-raises-concerns-among-residents-1.2099768

?Cee?view · 27-08-2015 3:45pm

what_traffic wrote: »

You are so full of nonsense.

You cannot back up either of these statements.
€500,000,000 to €750,000,000 for the "Expressway" is the figure presented by ARUP / NRA.
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/galway-bypass-raises-concerns-among-residents-1.2099768

Is he not talking about the cost of Gluas as opposed to the bypass?

27-08-2015 4:25pm

what_traffic wrote: »

You are so full of nonsense.

You cannot back up either of these statements.
€500,000,000 to €750,000,000 for the "Expressway" is the figure presented by ARUP / NRA.
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/galway-bypass-raises-concerns-among-residents-1.2099768

I never said the bypass wouldn't cost around 500,000,000. But that 500,000,000 will benefit (as the bypass will be built) far more people than spending more than twice that on a GLUAS which will benefit less people. The bypass benefits both people in the city and the county also while a GLUAS is about as much good as tits on a bull as far as people from the county are concerned.

Back up my statements? look at the cost per km of the LUAS extension.

L'Enfer du Nord · 27-08-2015 5:00pm

Luis Hallowed Drywall wrote: »

I never said the bypass wouldn't cost around 500,000,000. But that 500,000,000 will benefit (as the bypass will be built) far more people than spending more than twice that on a GLUAS which will benefit less people. The bypass benefits both people in the city and the county also while a GLUAS is about as much good as tits on a bull as far as people from the county are concerned.

Back up my statements? look at the cost per km of the LUAS extension.

Any measure that reduces car usage in the city benefits those 'forced' to drive in the city because they live in the county away from alternative mode of transport.

To illustrate my point, what use are Dublin Bus and the Dart to someone communing to Dublin from Navan? If there was a bus and dart strike tomorrow someone driving to work from Navan would notice how longer it took them to drive to work.

what_traffic · 27-08-2015 7:23pm

?Cee?view wrote: »

Is he not talking about the cost of Gluas as opposed to the bypass?

Then why is he/she quoting a ref to the proposed "Expressway" cost?

what_traffic · 27-08-2015 7:40pm

Luis Hallowed Drywall wrote: »

Back up my statements? look at the cost per km of the LUAS extension.

Not comparable. Would need an independent costing of the GLUAS study for Galway, but it would not be cheap.

We do know that the "Expressway" will cost €37,500,000 per KM (16km in length at a cost of €600,000,000) and will involve knocking 40 homes.
Source:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/up-to-40-homes-affected-as-final-route-of-planned-galway-bypass-decided-31189358.html

Am not in favour of GLUAS or the City Expressway; huge amount of money. More simple cost effective solutions available.

seanbcummins · 21-09-2015 9:57pm

As a car owner in the city myself, this time a year ago I would have been all for a city bypass. However, my opinion has changed. What is proposed to be built now is nothing but a joke, a new road in the city again. Leaving out the issue of cost etc. it doesn't make any sense?! It's not a bypass but an inner ring road.

Also, by building a bypass we're promoting to use of vehicles for generations to come....which means we're going to have the same problems year on year going forward as more and more young people opt to buy cars because there's no good alternative (look around the next time your sitting in traffic, the majority of cars have 1 occupant). The inner ring road is an expensive uneducated quick fix. We need an alternative source of transport that is reliable and fast and always leaves/arrives on time. The answer - a light rail system. Layout wise Galway is perfect, as mentioned by someone previously.

Think about it, once built, students and young professionals won't have to opt for buying a car. It might suit car owners in the city to use their vehicles for weekend use or best case scenario sell up as they don't need it to cross town anymore. You can spend all the money in the world upgrading Galway roads for buses but as some have limited space for expansion they will never be as perfect and as reliable as a light rail system.

If a light rail system was to be put in place, possibly bike lanes could be built alongside protected from the lines by barriers? Just a thought for anyone pro bikes.

dinneenp · 21-09-2015 10:26pm

seanbcummins wrote: »

As a car owner in the city myself, this time a year ago I would have been all for a city bypass. However, my opinion has changed. What is proposed to be built now is nothing but a joke, a new road in the city again. Leaving out the issue of cost etc. it doesn't make any sense?! It's not a bypass but an inner ring road.

Also, by building a bypass we're promoting to use of vehicles for generations to come....which means we're going to have the same problems year on year going forward as more and more young people opt to buy cars because there's no good alternative (look around the next time your sitting in traffic, the majority of cars have 1 occupant). The inner ring road is an expensive uneducated quick fix. We need an alternative source of transport that is reliable and fast and always leaves/arrives on time. The answer - a light rail system. Layout wise Galway is perfect, as mentioned by someone previously.

Think about it, once built, students and young professionals won't have to opt for buying a car. It might suit car owners in the city to use their vehicles for weekend use or best case scenario sell up as they don't need it to cross town anymore. You can spend all the money in the world upgrading Galway roads for buses but as some have limited space for expansion they will never be as perfect and as reliable as a light rail system.

If a light rail system was to be put in place, possibly bike lanes could be built alongside protected from the lines by barriers? Just a thought for anyone pro bikes.

2 seperate issues- even if you have a great tansport system into town you still need to bypass it. Going from south (limerick) or North( Tuam/Mayo) and having to drive through town (over the bridge) is a bottleneck. A bypass is needed.

L'Enfer du Nord · 21-09-2015 10:37pm

dinneenp wrote: »

2 seperate issues- even if you have a great tansport system into town you still need to bypass it. Going from south (limerick) or North( Tuam/Mayo) and having to drive through town (over the bridge) is a bottleneck. A bypass is needed.

http://www.galway.ie/en/services/roads/roadsprojects/m17m18/

GerardKeating · 21-09-2015 10:46pm

IrishLad69 wrote: »

Any news On Gluas in Galway? Heard about it once the last day on the radio heard nothing in ages after, I personally think we should get one because all the money the government get is pumped up into Dublin anyone who goes up there can see All the money is spent in Dublin . Gluas would be a great idea and no the town isn't to small for one.

That's a bit of a myth, quoted from another thread on boards.ie "taxation spend per head of population is €550 per annum in Dublin and €26,000 pa in Leitrim."

dinneenp · 21-09-2015 11:03pm

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

http://www.galway.ie/en/services/roads/roadsprojects/m17m18/

Sorry, should have been clearer. Anyone travelling from North or south wanting to go to West Galway have to cross the bridge (Bisentential bridge).

cgcsb · 22-09-2015 12:38pm

IrishLad69 wrote: »

Any news On Gluas in Galway? Heard about it once the last day on the radio heard nothing in ages after, I personally think we should get one because all the money the government get is pumped up into Dublin anyone who goes up there can see All the money is spent in Dublin . Gluas would be a great idea and no the town isn't to small for one.

It's a bit silly to say Galway should have one becasue Dublin does. Dublin's urban area also has about 12 times Galway's urban area population. Galway will likely get it's €0.5bn bypass, a massive overspend for such a small city and such a small volume of traffic comparatively. If that €0.5bn went into a 4 line gluas with park and rides instead of a bypass I think everyone would be happy, but the car/oil industry is king here.

cgcsb · 22-09-2015 12:43pm

Links234 wrote: »

The only way additional buses would create more traffic is if people refused to use public transportation, and if people refuse to use public transport... then why are we talking about creating more public transport?

I think Boney's point was to illustrate that we are a very small city, not that "Sure just walk it!" is a reasonable position. Though a lot of areas are indeed a walkable distance, because Galway is small. We're very small, we're a tiny city, we are miniscule in the grand scheme of things, we're a tiny, tiny thing. The point is, we don't have the population to support, or require in the first place, a light rail system.

I sometimes get the sense that people want a "Gluas" just so they can say, look, we're as good as Dublin, hah! That it's more of a prestige thing than an actual need for one.

Well that's not strictly true, plenty of Galway sized towns/cities in Europe have trams, although they'd be the smaller 'quaint' variety as opposed to the ones you'd find in Dublin or Barcelona

cgcsb · 22-09-2015 12:54pm

A high quality bus system would offer excellent coverage of Galway, the reason Dublin is switching more to Rail is because the demand exceeds the capacity of bus based systems. Galway won't have that problem for generations. A bus/bike only City Centre and high quality BRT lanes on arterial routes would be perfect for Galway.

Robbo · 22-09-2015 4:04pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a bit silly to say Galway should have one becasue Dublin does. Dublin's urban area also has about 12 times Galway's urban area population. Galway will likely get it's €0.5bn bypass, a massive overspend for such a small city and such a small volume of traffic comparatively. If that €0.5bn went into a 4 line gluas with park and rides instead of a bypass I think everyone would be happy, but the car/oil industry is king here.

If your budget is €500m, you're going to be coming to some kind of arrangement with the Perks to use the Wild Mouse off-season as part of any Gluas project.

Unrealistic · 23-09-2015 3:23pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

That's a bit of a myth, quoted from another thread on boards.ie "taxation spend per head of population is €550 per annum in Dublin and €26,000 pa in Leitrim."

Depending on which statistics you choose you can make the case that stark or it can be more nuanced. If you show local authority funding only it will be very stark but if you add in wider government spending; social welfare, health and (especially) public sector pay etc.; it becomes more balanced.

outsidein98 · 26-09-2015 1:44pm

All talk of a GLUAS is pure fantasy. It will never be funded by central government. It simply isn't going to happen. This city is too small. It could only feed a narrow part of the town. Plus the disruption caused by it's building in a town with an already chronic traffic problem would be disastrous.

Build the damm bypass and re-organise the bus service to a greater frequency and lower the fares.

Stop talking about this GLUAS nonsense.

TerrorFirmer · 26-09-2015 2:21pm

The figure for light rail is €700 million and you'd have to knock a lot of existing structures.

killilea92 · 28-09-2015 1:02pm

upgrading the bus network would serve a better purpose.. Esp for commuters

killilea92 · 28-09-2015 1:03pm

more cycle lanes

killilea92 · 28-09-2015 1:04pm

and a more efficient park n ride scheme

cooperguy · 08-10-2015 12:44pm

Unrealistic wrote: »

Depending on which statistics you choose you can make the case that stark or it can be more nuanced. If you show local authority funding only it will be very stark but if you add in wider government spending; social welfare, health and (especially) public sector pay etc.; it becomes more balanced.

You can't reasonably use figures for Public Sector pay or Social Welfare to compare how differert regions are funded though.

Unrealistic · 09-10-2015 12:58pm

cooperguy wrote: »

You can't reasonably use figures for Public Sector pay or Social Welfare to compare how differert regions are funded though.

The original quote was "taxation spend per head of population is €550 per annum in Dublin and €26,000 pa in Leitrim." Social Welfare payments and Public Sector Pay are, by definition, "taxation spend".

Redistribution of LPT receipts is one way regions are funded but decentralising the RSA to Ballina/Loughrea, Child Benefit to Letterkenny, Citizenship to Tipperary etc. achieves the same result by a slightly less direct method. Or you could argue the flipside that centralising such a large part of Public Sector pay in Dublin has a self reinforcing effect in that it boosts the employment opportunities there, thereby boosting house prices and the LPT revenues from which local authorities are partially funded.

I don't think there is any individual 'right' way to do the comparison but you can see the clearest picture by taking into account the various different possible comparisons.

makeorbrake · 20-10-2015 8:08am

A BRT system would be the way to go. Lower costs, more flexible. That doesn't mean that it's always better than light rail - both can be used and integrated together. However, for where Galway is at right now, BRT would be the best starting point.

Robbo · 29-10-2015 4:02pm

Given the week that's in it, zombie ideas are on the prowl and groaning "less than €30 million per kilometerrrrrrrrrrrrrr".

Anyone know when the budget for a "research trip" to Ogdenville, North Haverbrook or Brockway might be set?

Trams in Galway?

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