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A vote for Labour is a vote for Abortion - Iona Institute

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    #32
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Min wrote: »
    I don't think Labour is compatible with Catholic teaching, in their manifesto they promise a referendum to change the meaning of marriage so to allow same sex marriage.

    They are talking about civil marriage, they aren't trying to change the meaning of the Roman Catholic Sacrament of marriage.


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    #33
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    28064212 wrote: »
    There's no compatibility issue. Does the Catholic church recognise Muslim marriages? Of course not. The state recognises both, just like it will recognise gay marriage

    What?

    Are Muslims allowing same sex marriage?


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    #34
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,494 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Min wrote: »
    What?

    Are Muslims allowing same sex marriage?
    Are straight Muslims married in the eyes of the Catholic church? No, they are not, they have not gone through the sacrament of marriage as the RCC defines it. Are they married in the eyes of the state? Yes, they are

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    #35
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    They are talking about civil marriage, they aren't trying to change the meaning of the Roman Catholic Sacrament of marriage.

    Catholics can't vote for same sex marriage. Marriage is seen by catholics as a sacrament between a woman and a man.

    If it comes down to a referendum then Catholics are expected to follow what they profess and believe marriage to be - which is between a man and a woman.


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    #36
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    We already passed one, back in 1983. My first time voting for anything.

    Mind you, nobody knew that was what it would do and I voted against it, since it was supposed to copper-fasten our legal ban on abortion, and I was in favour of legalized abortion.

    In fact, the amendment was so badly written that made our previous anti-abortion law unconstitutional, and aborthion has been legal (but unavailable) ever since.
    That's a pretty good sum-up of what the 1983 amendment effectively did. Ironically, instead of pushing for a constitutional amendment, had the people pushing for the amendment done absolutely nothing back in the early 80s after some scaremongering that the decision in McGee was going to result in an Irish Roe v Wade [1], the legal position would currently be precisely what they wanted.


    [1]On the grounds that Roe v Wade was influenced by the US contraception case, Griswold v Connecticut.


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    #37
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,494 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Min wrote: »
    Catholics can't vote for same sex marriage. Marriage is seen by catholics as a sacrament between a Catholic woman and a Catholic man.
    FYP

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    #38
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    28064212 wrote: »
    Are straight Muslims married in the eyes of the Catholic church? No, they are not, they have not gone through the sacrament of marriage as the RCC defines it. Are they married in the eyes of the state? Yes, they are

    The point is Muslims like the catholic church do not believe on same sex marriage.


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    #39
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Min wrote: »
    I don't think Labour is compatible with Catholic teaching, in their manifesto they promise a referendum to change the meaning of marriage so to allow same sex marriage.
    Ivana Bacik is always on wanting abortion legalised, complaining about Catholic schools when most Irish people would have got no education if it was not for these schools in the past.

    I wouldn't vote for Labour.

    The State won't be involved in forcing Catholics to perform homosexual marriages. It'll allow state marriages to include homosexuals.
    Render unto Caeser and all that.

    Plus, I'm referring to Catholic social teaching (especially the Preferential Option for the Poor) rather than its moral teaching. What's the point in voting for FF as a party of family values when they're policies are ripping
    apart families due to emigration, unemployment and misery?
    None of this is compatible with the human dignity that Catholicism recognises as integral to the human person.


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    #40
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    28064212 wrote: »
    FYP

    You did not fix my post, you turned it into a lie. I think you will find a catholic can marry a person of a different faith. I have relations who are catholic who married people of other religions in a catholic church.


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    #41
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Min wrote: »
    The point is Muslims like the catholic church do not believe on same sex marriage.

    Then they could not marry someone who is the same gender, there are precluded to by their religion.

    There are people who are not precluded by their religion or their lack of their religion so if they want civil marriage they should be let marry.

    Civil marriage does not equal the catholic sacrament of marriage.
    Two people who are excommunicated can avail of civil marriage but not the sacrament of marriage.


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    #42
    takun
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭takun


    Min wrote: »
    Catholics can't vote for same sex marriage. Marriage is seen by catholics as a sacrament between a woman and a man.

    Not only can they, but many will. Remember that in the wind up everyone's faith is a personal thing. There are very few Catholics who adhere to every aspect of their faith, they make personal choices all the time about whether or not to toe their church's line.

    In any case such a vote is nothing whatsoever to do with being a Catholic, or any other religion. It is not trying to, and will not, have any effect on the Catholic Sacrement of Marriage or who can (or cannot) receive it. It's an entirely civil matter.


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    #43
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Lockstep wrote: »
    The State won't be involved in forcing Catholics to perform homosexual marriages. It'll allow state marriages to include homosexuals.
    Render unto Caeser and all that.

    Plus, I'm referring to Catholic social teaching (especially the Preferential Option for the Poor) rather than its moral teaching. What's the point in voting for FF as a party of family values when they're policies are ripping
    apart families due to emigration, unemployment and misery?
    None of this is compatible with the human dignity that Catholicism recognises as integral to the human person.

    Catholics will have to vote on it, they don't owe Ceasar a yes vote.

    People have emigrated under labour in government. Their talk isn't going to change much, it all comes down to our European partners, the ECB and the IMF.


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    #44
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    takun wrote: »
    Not only can they, but many will. Remember that in the wind up everyone's faith is a personal thing. There are very few Catholics who adhere to every aspect of their faith, they make personal choices all the time about whether or not to toe their church's line.

    In any case such a vote is nothing whatsoever to do with being a Catholic, or any other religion. It is not trying to, and will not, have any effect on the Catholic Sacrement of Marriage or who can (or cannot) receive it. It's an entirely civil matter.

    Why do they call themselves catholic if they do not follow it?

    It is down to what one believes, a person true to what they believe will vote with their conscience.


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    #45
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    So Min which one consubstantiation or transubstantiation?


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    #46
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,494 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Min wrote: »
    You did not fix my post, you turned it into a lie. I think you will find a catholic can marry a person of a different faith. I have relations who are catholic who married people of other religions in a catholic church.
    Oh yes, I forgot about that. Of course, their kids have to be raised Catholic. Regardless, a Muslim cannot marry a Muslim in a Catholic church. A Muslim marriage is not recognised by the RCC.

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    #47
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Min wrote: »
    Catholics will have to vote on it, they don't owe Ceasar a yes vote.
    yes, and they render unto Caeser what is Caeser's, keeping an arms length from government.
    Catholics can't dictate the moral values of the entire nation any more so than Protestants or Muslims can.
    Min wrote: »
    People have emigrated under labour in government. Their talk isn't going to change much, it all comes down to our European partners, the ECB and the IMF.
    Are you *honestly* equating the 1000 people leaving every week with the last time when Labour was in government (it was a Labour finance minister who oversaw the creation of 1000 jobs a week/the 12.5% corproation tax) FF took over in 1997 and turned the Celtic Tiger into destruction.

    Labour/Fine Gael both support renegotations of the IMF/ECB deal. FF do not, and agreed to it.


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    #48
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Min wrote: »
    If it comes down to a referendum then Catholics are expected to follow what they profess and believe marriage to be - which is between a man and a woman.

    At this stage, I think the Hierarchy instructing catholics to vote against a gay marriage amendent would help it to pass.


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    #49
    takun
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭takun


    Min wrote: »
    It is down to what one believes, a person true to what they believe will vote with their conscience.

    That's exactly the point - people vote (indeed live) in accordance with their conscience.

    Conscience belongs to the individual - doesn't the church teach that? So a vote in accordance with your conscience does not necessarily mean a vote in accordance with Church doctrine.

    Next time you attend a Catholic Church service, look around. Do you believe that none of the people worshipping with you took a contraceptive pill before they went to mass? That none shared a bed the night before with someone to whom they are not married? That none has ever travelled abroad for an abortion?

    Just like many Catholics examined their conscience and found that they believed it was right for them in their particular circumstance to use contraception or to have an abortion, many will find that it will guide them to allow a right denied to others in society, even if they have no desire to avail of that right themselves. Others will find they are guided to the opposite way of voting. Both are voting in accordance with their conscience.


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    #50
    Brenireland
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Brenireland


    And many say they wont vote SF because their murderers!,Labour are just as bad and more cowardly killing the Unborn.

    Do Not Vote Labour,Vote Labour,Vote For Murder.


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    #51
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Oh dear, what did I begin... :pac:


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    #52
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Min wrote: »
    It is down to what one believes, a person true to what they believe will vote with their conscience.

    Exactly, and there is no reason to believe that the average Irish Catholic's conscience agrees with the Bishops.

    For example, we now have legal divorce and remarriage in this country because we had a referendum and the average Catholic backed it, despite the fact that the Hierarchy did not, and remarriage is adultery in their book. The result was 75%-25% in favour, which means lots and lots of Catholics voted for it, and that was back in 1996, before the Hierarchy destroyed their moral standing utterly and completely with the general public.


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    #53
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,759 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Brenireland wrote: »
    And many say they wont vote SF because their murderers!,Labour are just and more cowardly killing the Unborn.

    Thats quite a leap isnt it?

    I didnt know that a political party from Ireland, namely the labour party had established abortion clinics and was now performing abortions!

    I assume you have the address for these clinics?


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    #54
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Brenireland wrote: »
    And many say they wont vote SF because their murderers!,Labour are just and more cowardly killing the Unborn.

    Labour to be absolutely fair to them are doing nothing except promising to legislate as the courts have already decided needs to be done under our current constitution. They are doing the right thing here and are compelled to do so by our constitution. FF and FG have been dicking us around by not promising to legislate or promising a referendum to change the constitution in order to remove the need to legislate. There are two options here, the FF approach of ignoring the issue for a decade is just cowardly.

    Your position would make an awful lot more sense if Labour were proposing a new referendum legalising abortion, but they're not.


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    #55
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,759 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    nesf wrote: »
    Labour to be absolutely fair to them are doing nothing except promising to legislate as the courts have already decided needs to be done under our current constitution. They are doing the right thing here and are compelled to do so by our constitution.

    Your position would make an awful lot more sense if Labour were proposing a new referendum legalising abortion, but they're not.

    Even then to proclaim them murderers, is quite a leap.

    There are gun licenses issued in this country, guns can kill, does that mean the government licenses murder?


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    #56
    Brenireland
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Brenireland


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    Thats quite a leap isnt it?

    I didnt know that a political party from Ireland, namely the labour party had established abortion clinics and was now performing abortions!

    I assume you have the address for these clinics?

    Dont think I mentioned anything to do with clinics to be honest...?

    Thankfully Labour have not been in government,so no their are no clinics.

    However Labour are Pro Abortion!,& they are not hiding the fact.


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    #57
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,759 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Brenireland wrote: »
    Dont think I mentioned anything to do with clinics to be honest...?

    Thankfully Labour have not been in government,so no their are no clinics.

    However Labour are Pro Abortion!,& they are not hiding the fact.

    Im pro abortion, im pro euthanasia.

    Am I a murder?


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    #58
    Brenireland
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Brenireland


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    Im pro abortion, im pro euthanasia.

    Am I a murder?

    Look the word murder up on a dictionary/And look up the word abortion=Answer.

    Abortion is the extermination of an unborn child is it not?

    Previous poster,Labour are pro-Abortion!,if you read the article/and know Labour policies.

    Article...

    It turns out a lot of them haven't the first clue about Labour's position on abortion. Amazing, but true. They don't know, for example, that Labour wants to legislate for the X case ruling of 1992.

    That ruling allows for abortion, and furthermore, it permits abortion simply on the say-so of a medical practitioner -- it doesn't have to be a doctor or psychiatrist -- who is willing to say that his or her patient is suicidal.

    In addition, Eamon Gilmore favours abortion where the 'health' of the mother is in danger. In practice, this would replicate in Ireland the British abortion law. In Britain, abortion is permitted where a woman's life or health is at risk. Health includes mental health. In practice, this translates into abortion-on-demand.

    Gilmore favours this policy despite the fact that Ireland is the safest place in the world for a woman to have a baby, according to World Health Organisation figures


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    #59
    Skrynesaver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    @Min
    I married in a civil ceremony, in the eyes of the Catholic church my wife and I are not married and it doesn't bother me a bit. In the eyes of the state we are married and so out legal standing as a couple is respected by the state. Nobody is asking a church to change it's ceremonies and procedures, Labour are proposing a referendum recognizing the rights of same sex couples to grant legal status to their relationship. IT IS NONE OF THE CHURCH'S BUSINESS.

    On the point originally raised, Labour have agreed to legislate as the government have been directed by the Irish people since confirmation of the x case ruling in 1992.


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    #60
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,759 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Brenireland wrote: »
    Look the word murder up on a dictionary/And look up the word abortion=Answer.

    Bren avoidance of my question is not an answer!
    I am pro abortion and pro euthanasia

    Am i a murderer?

    Here is some help though
    The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse
    .
    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/murder

    IF labour brought in a referendum on abortion and it passed, what legal status would that have?


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    #61
    Brenireland
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Brenireland


    Skrynesaver wrote: »
    @Min
    I married in a civil ceremony, in the eyes of the Catholic church my wife and I are not married and it doesn't bother me a bit. In the eyes of the state we are married and so out legal standing as a couple is respected by the state. Nobody is asking a church to change it's ceremonies and procedures, Labour are proposing a referendum recognizing the rights of same sex couples to grant legal status to their relationship. IT IS NONE OF THE CHURCH'S BUSINESS.

    On the point originally raised, Labour have agreed to legislate as the government have been directed by the Irish people since confirmation of the x case ruling in 1992.

    Yes,& sadly this is what brings down our state & Irish Legalitys,their are no moral grounds which their should always be,Ok the state has made mistakes & so has the church and some big ones.

    However the church has some morals.


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